houstonspartan
All Pro
Exactly. McNair is not cheap, nor does he micromanage.
And, he has said, several times, that 8-8 is not good enough.
He isn't the problem.
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HC possibilities - Cowher is the current flavor
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Exactly. McNair is not cheap, nor does he micromanage.
And, he has said, several times, that 8-8 is not good enough.
He isn't the problem.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
I think there's a strong possibility Kubiak will not be back next year. That's too bad. I really wanted the home town boy to do good and turn this team around, but I'm afraid that isn't going to happen. And it would be for the best. Kubiak has shown he doesn't have what it takes to get the Texans to play consistent football from one half to the next, let alone from game to game. We have far to much talent on this team to be where we are.
I wonder what this means for Rick Smith? We he be around when Kubiak is gone? I guess it kind of depends on who they bring in.
I wonder what this means for Rick Smith? We he be around when Kubiak is gone? I guess it kind of depends on who they bring in.
Malloy
Hall of Fame
I thought about that too, hopefully Rick Smith will be allowed to stay on and hire the new coach. These things are tough though, and it seems as if more often than not, some GMs and coaches stick together.
We'll see how it all works out in the end, as long as I have a Houston Texans team to cheer for next season, it ain't all bad
GP
Go Texans!
Here comes the obligatory "McNair brought football back to Houston" excuse again.
LOL.
At this rate, I think there are some who are wishing he had NOT brought football back to Houston.
Who cares if he doesn't micro-manage? I don't. This is about his selection of coaches, and his inability to cut them loose until after the 4th year.
Maybe the third time is a charm for Bob. Maybe we are going to see the playoffs by year 12 of this franchise.
Just because he bought the groceries doesn't mean I have to praise his lousy job of cooking the meal. The two are very different.
nero THE zero
All Pro
Where does the fault lie there?
Capers had the team steadily improve through the third season, when they went 7-9, the franchise's best record. He went 2-14 in his fourth season and was subsequently fired.
Kubiak successfully rebuilt that team and, while going 8-8 for two seasons in a row, has steadily improved the talent on the team. He also hasn't finished his fourth season.
I find no fault in holding onto Kubiak or Capers for a fourth season and, to the contrary, think McNair would be jumping the gun by letting either go prematurely. Obviously, it's playoffs or bust this year for Kubiak, and if McNair doesn't feel the same way then there's blame to be had. But, there's no reason, no indicators, and no track record to make any assumptions here.
I think you're either faulting McNair on faulty premises and/or on what you think he's going to do (i.e. not fire Kubiak after this season) rather than anything he's actually done.
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GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
But we ARE NOT going ANYWHERE. What does a couple of 8-8 seasons do? Nothing. We want improvement to a winning record, not staying average. Yes, Kubiak improved this team talent wise, but his coaching still sucks. We have yet to really play a complete game. We need him gone for a new HC.
nero THE zero
All Pro
Agreed.
But, given the improvement on talent and the improvement of play (even though the record didn't necessarily reflect it), I think it was only fair to Kubiak, the players, and the fans to give him his fourth season to prove whether he was capable of taking this team over the hump or not.
We've obviously seen that he's not capable of such and changes need to be made accordingly. But, a change prior to this season would have been premature, IMO.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
As someone who always thought Kubiak sucked, let me say 'i told you so'
He was hired as some sort of hometown hero and wouldn't have gotten a sniff with any other franchise. There is a reason for that. He isn't wired to be a head coach. He can't motivate. He sucks at clock and game management. He can't make adjustments in game.
He just sucks.
GO AWAY KUBIAK. YOU FREAKING SUCK DONKEY BALLS!!
He was hired as some sort of hometown hero and wouldn't have gotten a sniff with any other franchise. There is a reason for that. He isn't wired to be a head coach. He can't motivate. He sucks at clock and game management. He can't make adjustments in game.
He just sucks.
GO AWAY KUBIAK. YOU FREAKING SUCK DONKEY BALLS!!
GP
Go Texans!
I don't think NFL teams win with the type of people-handling mentality that Bob McNair has displayed.
Holding onto David Carr, via the $8 million extension for his last year with us, was very telling. Bob basically showed that he will go above and beyond the normal call of duty when it comes to trying to rescue a favored person's career with the Texans. He wanted to see Carr make it through the storm.
He wanted to see Capers make it through the storm.
He wants to see Kubiak make it through the storm.
I keep saying it, just so that people hear me clearly: There is SOME good that comes with this sort of mentality (guys know they can get a second chance). And there is some BAD with this mentality (you prolong the suffering of LOTS of people).
I try to boil things down to their lowest base. And in my opinion, our owner is a guy who thinks he can win with his way of doing things. Want to know why we just can't seem to get over the hump and put games away? Maybe it's because we have an owner who likes to give people lots and lots of second and third and fourth chances on a regular, habitual basis.
This team, IMO, plays like its owner. It's soft, clean, and likes to be nice to others.
Bill Cowher just might be THE only guy who is big enough to snap this team out of that mindset and to play cut-throat football that intends to do violence to the other teams' psyche on a consistent basis.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
And we'd be an absolute scary team if we played the Cowher way on a consistent basis. We have the talent...easily. Just the coaching is ass.
nero THE zero
All Pro
You keep repeating this as if it makes it fact.
McNair was certainly at fault for extending Carr and making Caper's replacement contingent on their willingness to work with him. But, citing his handling of Capers and Kubiak is pretty baseless.
At what point before Capers' 2-14 season would you fire him? He went from four, to five, to seven wins. He had a history of being successful with expansion franchises and was trending in the right direction.
On what grounds would you fire Kubiak prior to this season? Obviously he's had issues with game management, but he's rebuilt this team very successfully, he's implemented one of the best passing schemes in the league, he has gathered premium talent, and, while not posting a good number of wins, he has won enough to show potential. I don't think it's off base to say prior to this season we'd be better off with a different coach, but I do think it's off base to hold it against anyone for giving him a fourth season to prove his worth.
You might ultimately be right about McNair, but your arguments based off one bad decision and a bunch of assumptions right now.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
In my opinion, Kubiak has done pretty much all he can do. I don't think he'll be able to push this team forward. He compiled the talent, but can't work with it. Bring in someone new.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
I'm not goignt to say cohwer is not a upgrade as a coach, i'm just going to say i think it would be a mistake if the fire kubiak if he finishes 8-8 or with a winning record. When you make a move like that and have that type of transition, it may take some time. Cowher did well with the steelers, but tomlin came in and won a bowl after 2 yrs. Is that to say tomlin was a better coach? The steelers organization could be the trump card and not cowher. Not to mention the transition from 4-3 to 3-4 which would basically scrap okoye,ryans,adibi,diles,cody, just to name a few. I think he has done a good job and its easy because the team is in a litle slump. Its not out of the question for this team to win 9 or 10 games this yr.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
GP
Go Texans!
So if I go and buy some groceries, and you come to my house for a meal, and you eat the meal and it tastes like poop...but I repeat this process and for the next 8 visits to my house you continue to eat poopy meals that I created...then I can say "but I bought the groceries" and it makes it all better?
Some people throw out the "He brought football back to Houston" ploy, which is saying "Don't complain, because you wouldn't even be suffering through 8 years of mediocre football had it not been for McNair."
In the end, I think organizations take on the persona of their ultimate leader (the guy at the top).
I dare to make the assumption, and thus far the glove seems to fit.
GP
Go Texans!
I used to be a Mike Leach guy. But man, the guy is weird.
He played Sheffield (hurt) when he should have played Potts.
Sometimes I think he out-thinks himself. Very fun to watch, don't get me wrong, but I think he has maybe one or two more seasons left at Tech before that town grows tired of him.
Redtexan#34
Noob
I was listening this morning to the local talk radio here in Beaumont. The guy that does the 5 min sport recap said he was at the colts game yesterday and said in the 4th qrt that fans were chanting "COWHER". I didnt here this on the tv i was wondering if anyone could verify this and if so did it take place when McNair was on the sideline.
TD
Super Bowl Mascot
These threads always make me think of a certain Texas head coach who in his first five years went 0-11-1, 4-9-1, 5-8-1, 4-10, and 5-8-1.....went on to do pretty well for himself.
I know this is a "win now" league, but I refuse to believe that coaching turnover is the solution. If you're not going to give a coach five years to do his job, don't sign him to a five year contract.
That said...if an elite coach (like Cowher) would take the job...bye bye Kubes....I ain't that dumb. But at the same time, don't fire Kubiak for another run of the mill recycled or rookie coach.
I know this is a "win now" league, but I refuse to believe that coaching turnover is the solution. If you're not going to give a coach five years to do his job, don't sign him to a five year contract.
That said...if an elite coach (like Cowher) would take the job...bye bye Kubes....I ain't that dumb. But at the same time, don't fire Kubiak for another run of the mill recycled or rookie coach.
Ding!
Ding!
Ding!
Ding!
We have a winner. Think about it folks. It took Cowher, what 14-15 yrs to win a Super Bowl with the remnants of a Chuck Knoll team. It only took Tomlin two years to win a Super Bowl with, basically, the same team Cowher left behind - did I mention he went 8-8 with that team?
It wasn't Cowher, it was the Steeler org. which included Dick LeBeau running that defense.
kastofsna
Hall of Fame
that doesn't mean Cowher isn't a good coach. first of all, he has a great record as a coach. yes, it took him a while to win a Super Bowl, but um...winning a Super Bowl isn't easy, and to take that away from him is silly. the team has been in place to win won multiple times during his tenure, but he lost to better teams. that's the way it works. there are very few coaches who are "the greatest of all time," and then there are a bunch of really, really good ones. Cowher is one of the really, really good ones. if you have a chance at him, you'd be dumb to turn him down.
GP
Go Texans!
Or it took Cowher 14-15 years of rebuilding the leftovers of Knoll's team.
And then, Tomlin is enjoying the fruits of Cowher's labor.
The Steelers team could not have achieved what it achieved IN SPITE OF Bill Cowher. He was very much a reason as to why they became who they are today.
My only concern with Cowher is the Jimmy Johnson-Dolphins scenario: Does Cowher have enough in the tank that he REALLY REALLY wants to help Houston take it to the next level, or has he achieved what he set out to achieve...and he doesn't have the stamina to go through it again?
In the end, he might very well decide that what he did was enough. He probably doesn't want to risk tarnishing his legacy by coming to Houston. There are certainly many, many reasons as to why the Great Bill Cowher Experiment is (a) not going to happen, or (b) not going to work out even if it's attempted.
I'm just not impressed with him.
Wonder what he would have done with the cast of misfits Kubiak inherited. Cowher (and to be fair Tomlin too) had multiple pro bowlers on their team when they stepped in.
Let's count shall we...
Dermonti Dawson - C
Carlton Haselrig - RG
Neil O'Donnell - QB
Barry Foster - RB (1690 yds that year)
Greg Lloyd - OLB
Rod Woodson - CB
That's six; add to these guys like Hardy Nickerson and Carnell Lake, who are near pro-bowl quality, and you've got a pretty good squad. I doubt if the present-day Texans could beat them.
And they were only two years removed from winning the division under Chuck Knoll.
Did Kubiak inherit anything like that?
I guess my beef is that I hate to see a guy plow the ground, till the soil, pull all the weeds, plant and fertilize the crops only to fire the farmer and then let someone else come in and harvest the fruits of all that work. When the new farmer didn't so squat but drive the combine.
That's no where close to fair IMHO. See the Dungy/Gruden Buccaneers.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
This IS his fourth year....so we were patient. time to go, Kubiak
Which is why I want Cowher as coach and the guy responsible for drafting all that talent to come with him. The guy im talking about wasnt Pitts GM, I think he was the director of scouting. Anyone know who im talking about? Wanna say TOM something. Ill have to look it up.
kastofsna
Hall of Fame
Cowher inherited good players, went to the Super Bowl, then all of those players left and he replaced them with even better players and won the Super Bowl years later, following several conference championship game appearances. then Mike Tomlin won the Super Bowl with the players drafted, coached, and already won a Super Bowl with. there's no comparison to Gruden here. Gruden won with Dungy's players, then promptly destroyed the team with his own drafting and awful free agency signings. Cowher went to the Super Bowl with a lot of Knoll's players, then rebuilt the team and still managed to stay consistently good for over a decade and a half, winning a Super Bowl as well.
throughout his 15 years as coach, the Steelers ranked, on average, 7th in the NFL in total defense. you would turn that down because of his success very early in his career with someone else's players, and completely ignoring the rest of his career, where he was great with HIS players? silly.
GP
Go Texans!
GP
Go Texans!
See my previous post; Cowher inherited 6 pro bowlers and one Hall of Famer. Now granted, he took Chuck's leftovers to the playoffs his first year there. And for the next 3-4 seasons thereafter. But then, how hard was it to win your division when it's the Bengals, Browns, and Oilers (yeah, the 90s Oilers that butthead Bud dismantled).
Agreed.
I'm thinking he carried the torch that Chuck Knoll lit in the 70s.
Those are excellent questions. He took over the Steelers at 35. What is he now, 50-something? Can he bring the same fire he did then? Especially after muggin in front of the cameras and chilling out with the fam for the past two years.
What you're kinda asking is, "Is he still the hungry young man that ran the Steelers for 14-15 years until he finally won the 'Big One'?" or would he just be coming back for that mega-paycheck that is sure to be offered up to him??
That's a VERY interesting question...
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
exactly TD. great post.
i am not for firing Kubiak just to fire him. it has to be an upgrade and this is the year for hiring a top head coach.
another thing, people need to stop freaking out about the 4-3 to 3-4. that is just an excuse used by teams that are losing or people who are too scared to make a change. I can't think of any player outside of our DTs (which pretty much suck anyway) that would be adversely affected. It's not like it takes a year to go into effect or that its some long arduous rebuilding project. Look at what Gregg Williams did in New Orleans in one season. he comes in, puts the system in, adds a few players, guys starting making plays and the Saints D is no longer a joke.
i want someone i can believe in and someone that i know can get the job done. are you really going to bring Kubiak back as a lame duck coach without a contract or God forbid, re-sign him to an extension?
are you kidding me? we can't sit around and wait for Gary to figure out how to be an NFL head coach. he is just in over his head right now and rookie head coaches are coming in and making better half time adjustments and inspiring the troops more. What did Kubiak say at halftime? They came out listless and uninspired.
The thing that sucked the most about the game other than losing again, was Andre's face. With the whole Uncle Agent thing and the talk of him possibly demanding a trade if things don't improve, it just scares me. I know he came out and denied and distanced himself from his Uncle, but I am sure the frustration is there. AJ looked pissed.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
Good. He should be pissed but he is not pissed enough to get into someone's grill when they are screwing up. Players like AJ cannot just sit there anymore. Some players need to take charge. If he is unwilling to do it, he is part of the problem of the organization. Great players take on the leadership role. Name me one who hasn't.
How many drops did AJ have yesterday?
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
This may not be the most appropriate place to post this, but it sure gives you a contrast between the philosophy of a successful franchise and one that thinks they are trying to be successful. It's all about core values..........correct core values.
Jim Caldwell fits perfectly in the Indianapolis template.LINK
Jim Caldwell fits perfectly in the Indianapolis template.LINK
nero THE zero
All Pro
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Maybe as a OC or something.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Cowher made it to the Super Bowl like ten years earlier, too. Just ran into the Cowboys dynasty.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
From what pat kirwin says on nfl radio, cowher aint going anywhere unless he's given total control. Now we've seen the steelers infastructure to be the best in football for a long time and if cowher cant get some of those scouts and other guys here, what makes the texans fan think they will all of a sudden elevate above what they're doing now? I will say for arguments sake, i think cowher gets the most from his talent, but its not like those steeler teams didn't have talent. I'm all for upgrading any position and any coach, but just like the steelers have shown, there is something good about patience also. With the language in the offense and the defense seems settled, i would rather go with holmgren. I think the only change offensively would be bigger lineman inside and truthfully, i think the defense is fine. He has a ring and was a winner also, plus he has some experience in personel side. he would be the playcaller over shanny jr. Bring in cowher and you will turn the roster upside down and i don't think thats what you want to do.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Didn't Mike Holmgren already say he isn't looking for a coaching job, and instead a front office job? I'm pretty sure he said that. And I HIGHLY doubt our roster would be turned "upside-down" with Cowher. There isn't much that needs too much change, even if our defense switches to 3-4.
nero THE zero
All Pro
Yea, he has experience at the personnel side; experience in being so bad at it that he had his personnel duties stripped from him.
I know some people are opposed to Cowher getting personnel control, and that's fine. Coaches working in dual capacity usually don't work out. Personally, I don't mind it because he hasn't given me any reason to think he wouldn't be good at it, and I'm willing to take that risk if I get the benefit of him being my HC.
What I find funny here is that you advocate against giving Cowher personnel control, though he's never proven such ability either way, and for Holmgren, who's proven incapable of such. Seems backwards to me.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
I personally don't think holmgren or cowher should be given total control and despite holmgren's perceived failures, he did draft some pretty good players while in charge. Not to mention, he turned around 2 pathetic franchises while in charge. Holmgren would be better suited to me because the offense and defense are kinda in place now. He does prefer bigger interior lineman and run more power zone and g power stuff, but the language is pretty similar. Cowher would turn that defense of front 7 upside down. The only guys that fit the 3-4 are williams and cushing. I guess since smith played in the hybrid last yr in arizona, you could say him, but i'm not so sure. I'm not saying its a bad thing, but ryans,and every other lb is gone also.
I think they should stay the course unless they go into the tank. I never said cowher wasnt a great coach, i just wonder how much of it was the steelers organization vs cowher himself. At least holmgren has shown he can win in 2 different places.
False Start
On # 69
Just thought I would try and raise awareness to the illness that has infected our head coach, Gary Kubiak.
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jjjezebel
¡Ay, caramba!
Just thought I would try and raise awareness to the illness that has infected our head coach, Gary Kubiak.
Hehe...mind if I swipe this pic to use on my blog? It illustrates perfectly the post I wrote last night after the game.
Nawzer
Alienz
Unless Bill Cowher can kick field goals, convert 3rd & inches from the goal line, pass rush, and protect the QB it won't matter who the head coach is. I'm a fan of Cowher and I think he would be an upgrade over Kubiak, but I just don't see it happening at this point. The games we've lost this season imho are all the players fault. Kris Brown potentially cost us 2 games. The way we lost the Arizona and Jacksonville game is directly because of the players. I feel bad for Kubiak because I think he's a good coach but when players don't execute there's nothing you can do no matter who the coach is.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Bill Cowher is a former special teams coach, that's where he made his name coming up and even when he was a head coach he still was heavily involved with the special teams and was notorious for riding his kickers. If Cowher was here, Kris Brown wouldn't be......after all Cowher was the guy who originally sent his ass packing.
Also Kubiak is responsible for our short yardage failures, because he coaches a pansy ass finesse scheme centered around light weight lineman who can't move people around or simply get blown the hell off the ball. Cowher would never stand for that and I guarantee you we wouldn't be having the same reoccurring problems for 4 damn years with him at the helm.
You create your own luck in this league.....Kubiak has created alot of his bad luck. He never gave his QB any running game to speak of (A QB I think we can win with, if we had a power running game...which Cowher would bring) and he never really held players accountable (the "chin" would be ripping ass on the sideline if one of his teams came out flat for a entire half). Cowher wouldn't put up with Dunta's crap either.
Kubiak's teams when you get down to it are coached to be a bunch of softies mentally and physically, which is why we can't put teams away or can't even pick up a damn yard to put them away. The saddest thing is that the rest of the league knows this is one of the "softest" teams in the entire league.....it's probably a running joke around NFL circles. Jeff Fisher and the Titans sure as hell get a big laugh out of it.
His teams are also undisciplined and unprepared, which is the reason why we have so many costly damn turnovers every freaking year, start the season slow, or simply get outsmarted on the field all the damn time. See Peyton's 30 yard pass in this past game.......see JDR abusing our punt coverage team last year....see the 49ers ripping off three straight second half TDs with the same ****ing play over and over. This team just doesn't "get it" and neither does the coaching staff.It's all about discipline and professionalism, Kubiak acts like he's coaching a pop warner team with "the kids"
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GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
^^Hopefully if we get Cowher, we don't start seeing players bust out in tears during practice.
MannyFresh
El Capitan
Imagine the players who will want to come play for him....players love and respect this guy.
nero THE zero
All Pro
You make a good case for Holmgren over Cowher. To take your point on the 3-4 a bit further, one of the reasons Antonio Smith signed here over, say, re-signing with the Cardinals is that he prefers playing in the 4-3 over the 3-4. So, your point is certainly valid there.
I just think you're going to have to grant any of these big name HC personnel control if you want them here. I'd rather someone who has a blank slate in that regard rather than someone who has proven inept at it.
And, to clarify, Holmgren was unable to coach and run personnel, he might be great at doing either, just not good at both.
Dread-Head
Hall of Fame
Sure...if we can remove Vince Young's genitalia from his mouth he might make a GREAT coach again. No wait. That one title he got in Tampa Bay was on a team BUILT by Tony Dungee. Sorry No dice, let Chucky stick to being a biased color commentary guy. He seems to be good at it.
GP
Go Texans!
Holmgren does nothing for me. Since the glory days at Green Bay, what has he done...other than stand on the sideline and get red-faced mad and stare hatefully at his own players. He's a Denny's menu guy, too, IMO.
Gruden does even less for me. Talk about being in the right place at the right time. That's Gruden, IMO. Tom Coughlin (and I know he's not available) does more for me than Gruden, and I'm not a big fan of Coughlin's coaching. So that tells you how much I think of Gruden.
I would be happier with Cowher, and to a lesser extent I would be OK with Mike Shanahan (though his rapid decline in Denver makes me nervous about his ability to be connected to today's NFL level/standard of play).
Folks, we need a coach who can wade through all the junk and make this team hold itself to a higher standard.
One of the reasons I like Mike Shanahan is because he knows the Denver system already, and so there wouuld be less drastic change and PERHAPS a better chance at staying competitive in the first season of rebuilding.
To me, Mike Shanahan and Bill Cowher are the best available in terms of who could likely take what we have and make it better.
Gruden does even less for me. Talk about being in the right place at the right time. That's Gruden, IMO. Tom Coughlin (and I know he's not available) does more for me than Gruden, and I'm not a big fan of Coughlin's coaching. So that tells you how much I think of Gruden.
I would be happier with Cowher, and to a lesser extent I would be OK with Mike Shanahan (though his rapid decline in Denver makes me nervous about his ability to be connected to today's NFL level/standard of play).
Folks, we need a coach who can wade through all the junk and make this team hold itself to a higher standard.
One of the reasons I like Mike Shanahan is because he knows the Denver system already, and so there wouuld be less drastic change and PERHAPS a better chance at staying competitive in the first season of rebuilding.
To me, Mike Shanahan and Bill Cowher are the best available in terms of who could likely take what we have and make it better.
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