G.O.A.T. or duck: Bill Belichick

[DBCooper]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2020/opp.htm (I just went through every year manually)

Total Team Defense rankings

New England Patriots

1996 – 14th
1997 – 9th
1998 – 14th
1999 – 7th
2000 – 17th
2001 – 6th
2002 – 17th
2003 – 1rst
2004 – 3rd
2005 – 17th
2006 – 2nd
2007 – 4th
2008 – 8th
2009 – 5th
2010 – 8th
2011 – 15th
2012 – 10th
2013 – 10th
2014 – 8th
2015 – 10th
2016 – 1rst
2017 – 5th
2018 – 7th
2019 – 1rst
2020 – 7th

That kind of effort put forth by your defense year after year sure takes some pressure off your offense.

19 out of 25 years with a top 10 Defense.

8 in the top 5.

 

[steelbtexan]

As usual you miss the point, take a statement completely out of context…& you’re wrong. Clutch is relative….Brady’s “clutchness” in those early years….which is what I was referring to, mostly amounted to him relying on BB ‘s defense shutting down some of the most prolific offenses, & being a high end game manager that moved the ball 30-45 yards so that Vinatieri could perform the real clutch act of kicking the game winning FG. There’s a reason he is considered the most clutch kicker in NFL history & it’s b/c 3 SB’s were won directly due to that guy’s foot.

Brady damn near threw the 1st SB away with that tuck rule nonsense, and in those other early 2 he only threw for more than 250 yards in a game once in 6 games….& you can argue that was really only b/c that SB went to OT. Yeah he gets some credit for moving them in position for the GW FG….but how hard is it really for an NFL Qb to throw check downs all the way into FG position against a defense playing prevent trying not to get beat deep in a close game? Schaub with our best teams just was never close enough in a lot of games to have that scenario arise…but we saw him do it a few times….only to watch Chris Brown and Fat Bullock blow the games.

Brady lead the Pats to a SB win in the las min against a heavily favored Rams team. He didn't do that by hitting a bunch of checkdowns. BTW, you bring up the tuck rule game. Having 3 feet of snow on the field might have had something to do with his struggles. Gannon struggled too. Bottom line is Brady brought his team back and they ended up winning a SB. Now if you want to make the case that Vinatieri was the MVP of both the AFCCG and the SB I will agree with you. I dont care about how many yds a guy throws for, I care about if he can lead a team down the field at the end of the game to a TD or a FG to win a game and there's no comparison between Brady/Schaub when it come to this metric.

Still Schaub was nowhere as good as Brady even when Brady was young. You can make a case the 2009 Schaub was better, but that team went 9-7 and missed the playoffs. Truth is they missed the playoffs because of a pick 6 in Glendale that I happened to go watch. Sadly that day was a forerunner of things of things to come for Schaub's career and I was a Schaub guy.

 

[badboy]

Placing here due to O'Brien and his destruction of Texans. I understand if it is moved to NFL thread.

New Report Reveals How Bill Belichick Undermined Bill O'Brien

New England Patriots fans know that head coach/general manager Bill Belichick has issues staying out of his own way. The 71-year-old bench boss is one of the mo

chowderandchampions.com

 

[TexansBull]

Placing here due to O'Brien and his destruction of Texans. I understand if it is moved to NFL thread.

New Report Reveals How Bill Belichick Undermined Bill O'Brien

New England Patriots fans know that head coach/general manager Bill Belichick has issues staying out of his own way. The 71-year-old bench boss is one of the mo

chowderandchampions.com

That reeks of the OB leaks that we had here when it was OB vs Rick Smith.

 

[badboy]

That reeks of the OB leaks that we had here when it was OB vs Rick Smith.

That was my thought also. I was really surprised that Belichick allowed O'Brien to return.

 

[TexansBull]

That was my thought also. I was really surprised that Belichick allowed O'Brien to return.

It makes you wonder what is going to happen in the coming years -

Is Belicheck going to try to go like Parcells and run the team as GM like Parcells in NY did? Then let someone else take over as coach? But GM isn’t Belicheck’s strong point. So will someone else come in as GM. Never going to happen. Belicheck will quit first.

Will OB take over? Or will Josh McDaniels return as HC or OC? Will Tim Kelly eventually return to OB?

So many twists and turns.

 

[thunderkyss]

Placing here due to O'Brien and his destruction of Texans. I understand if it is moved to NFL thread.

New Report Reveals How Bill Belichick Undermined Bill O'Brien

New England Patriots fans know that head coach/general manager Bill Belichick has issues staying out of his own way. The 71-year-old bench boss is one of the mo

chowderandchampions.com

Well, I don't think much of BO'b the coach so I don't believe for a second his ways would have worked any better. I understand what they're saying & if I thought BO'b was a good coach I'd think they have a point. But I see BO'b as someone who has to have the framework set up around him to be effective.

I wonder how much of the Alabama offensive staff BO'b brought in.

 

[Earl34]

That reeks of the OB leaks that we had here when it was OB vs Rick Smith.

Yep. I posted a similar thought in the NFL random thought forum. All of a sudden, leaks and unknown sources are circling like buzzards around the Patriots facility.

Well, this is interesting. Last offseason, there were reports that Jerod Mayo was going to be Belichick's successor. With rumors of this being Belichick last year, "sources" are whispering about Mayo, "rubbing people the wrong way". Based on his M.O., I wonder if Mayo is looking sideways at BOB.

Patriots Rumors: Jerod Mayo Rubbing People 'Wrong Way' This Season? (nesn.com)

 

[TexansBull]

Yep. I posted a similar thought in the NFL random thought forum. All of a sudden, leaks and unknown sources are circling like buzzards around the Patriots facility.

I remember reading your post and didn’t put the dots together of who BOB was.

You are right and were probably first.

It ain’t no coincidence that these two leaks come out where OB/BOB is employed.

 

[Earl34]

Well, I don't think much of BO'b the coach so I don't believe for a second his ways would have worked any better. I understand what they're saying & if I thought BO'b was a good coach I'd think they have a point. But I see BO'b as someone who has to have the framework set up around him to be effective.

I wonder how much of the Alabama offensive staff BO'b brought in.

I don't know if it would have mattered. He was basically running Saban's offense and I don't know how many coaches on the Alabama staff were hired by him or Saban and how many would be willing to follow him to the Patriots.

 

[badboy]

Well, I don't think much of BO'b the coach so I don't believe for a second his ways would have worked any better. I understand what they're saying & if I thought BO'b was a good coach I'd think they have a point. But I see BO'b as someone who has to have the framework set up around him to be effective.

I wonder how much of the Alabama offensive staff BO'b brought in.

I think the article said two and one, i i r c was an assistant quarterback coach.

 

[Arky]

Gosh, just now discovering this thread. I had posted thoughts along these lines in a main forum thread unaware of this thread. I guess I'm in the camp that thinks Belichik ain't all that without Brady.

I give Belichik credit for always having a pretty good defense and keeping the talent coming in year after year. Still, I think it was Brady who made it all work... Brady made it look easy. Generally speaking, he just didn't miss in the 4th quarter. "Choke" was not in his vocabulary. "Productive" - that was Brady.

Pats went 6-3 in Superb Owls during the Brady/Belichik era. That's dynasty material, no?

 

[thunderkyss]

I give Belichik credit for always having a pretty good defense and keeping the talent coming in year after year. Still, I think it was Brady who made it all work... Brady made it look easy. Generally speaking, he just didn't miss in the 4th quarter. "Choke" was not in his vocabulary. "Productive" - that was Brady.

I just can't get over the first 6 years of Brady. He was not that "Super Bowl MVP" that most people know nowadays. On most teams he'd have probably been replaced before he had a chance to become that "Super Bowl MVP."

 

[Arky]

I just can't get over the first 6 years of Brady. He was not that "Super Bowl MVP" that most people know nowadays. On most teams he'd have probably been replaced before he had a chance to become that "Super Bowl MVP."

1st 6 years? As opposed to the last 13? OK.

He finished 3rd in league MVP voting twice and made the Pro Bowl 3 times during those first 6 years. Also, the Pats went 3-0 in Superbowls and Brady was Superbowl MVP twice during that time. Not bad for a game manager....

 

[Lucky]

On most teams he'd have probably been replaced before he had a chance to become that "Super Bowl MVP."

Ridiculous. Were you watching football during the early 2000s? Brady was top 10 in every category.

 

[thunderkyss]

Not bad for a game manager....

But a game manager all the same. No shame in that, Troy Aikman punched his HOF ticket as a game manager.

Brady was clutch & tough as nails those 1st six years. But at that time I was squarely in the "Peyton Manning is the best QB in the league" camp. Belichick made Tom Brady in those years, continually putting him in position for that clutch gene to win the game... well, Brady got Vinatieri in position, but you know what I mean.

After that Brady morphed into something else & Bill was just along for the ride.

 

[welsh texan]

It’d be lovely to be having this conversation about DeMeco and Stroud in a couple of decades time “oh DeMeco wasn’t all that without Stroud”.

I’ll always believe there is a separate skill in picking your QB, developing him, putting the team around him to allow that to develop, and then to continue to make it work once he’s getting paid the majority of your free cap space.

Plenty of good QBs fail because of the situation, plenty of good coaches fail because of the QB, and loads of mediocre teams exist with franchise QBs, also.

Coaches don’t get long to find their man in the NFL, honestly I would probably give someone else the next crack of the whip in New England just like Kraft has, although I reckon Belichick shouldn’t have hitched his horse to Mac Jones. Will be interesting if he gets a second opportunity, can he catch lightning a second time and find another QB? He certainly won’t have another 20 year run, though, given his age.

 

[Thorn]

I think Belichick going anywhere is a bad idea. He should just retire and be done with it.

 

[Carr Bombed]

But a game manager all the same. No shame in that, Troy Aikman punched his HOF ticket as a game manager.

Brady was clutch & tough as nails those 1st six years. But at that time I was squarely in the "Peyton Manning is the best QB in the league" camp. Belichick made Tom Brady in those years, continually putting him in position for that clutch gene to win the game... well, Brady got Vinatieri in position, but you know what I mean.

After that Brady morphed into something else & Bill was just along for the ride.

I saw a talking head break it all down when Brady retired. They broke up his career stats into 3 different careers. The guy had 3 different career averages that were HOF career #s.

 

[Carr Bombed]

I give a lot of credit to Bill for their success.. mainly for getting everyone to buy into his "team/patriot way" which is why they were able to stay on top for so long. People signed for below market value, but when your QB does how can you argue?

The thing that hurts Bill Belichick is his coaching tree is basically a telephone pole while coach branches like Bill Walsh are still winning titles and are innovative in the NFL. The hoodie was probably as bad as my grandma was/is with her cooking recipes.. I'm sure there's a LOT of ingredients the man simply didn't teach to his staff. He always viewed them as future competitors.

 

[Deadpool]

Exactly!!! What we said yesterday is irrelevant!

5-1!!!!!

Today is a brand new day!

 

[Carr Bombed]

The NFL is not compatible to real life. When an employee makes 10x more than his boss, you can see the dynamics are much different.

True but like anything else there are outliers.. case in point Cleveland. Kevin Stefanski is not going to be unemployed for long and I bet his players and the fans see what's really going on. They saw other QBs have success in Watson's absence. After hiring a man because of his offensive scheme, they asked him not to run it, because of the QB.

But again just pointing out the outlier in a just world the fans of Cleveland would be able to fire haslem. Tepper and him are running a close race for worst owner and with Dan Snyder gone the cover is gone.

 

[welsh texan]

Note: never said that he couldn't perform without him.

I just said if the guy wanted his personal coach on staff, then why not bring him on.

I don’t know if all personal QB coaches have the same business model as Quincy Avery, but he doesn’t put all his eggs in one basket, he coaches a number of different QBs, isn’t tied into the political zeitgeist of any one club, he’s not going to get fired as QB coach because a defensive minded head coach can’t get a run game going for instance (which club positional coaches certainly can).

Clubs do hire QB coaches and QBs do hire their own personal coaches, and when it all meets up and works it works great, when you have someone like Watson getting pulled in several different directions, club want him to work on one thing, personal coach teaching him different and a load of outside distractions, it all goes the other way.

Don’t forget the NFLPA rules mean the club are limited in how much coaching they can offer the QB too, so if the QB wants to work more they have to use an outside source.

 

[Lucky]

I don’t know if all personal QB coaches have the same business model as Quincy Avery, but he doesn’t put all his eggs in one basket, he coaches a number of different QBs,

That's right. Later in his career, I believe Tom Brady had an exclusive guy, who was also his physical trainer and maybe nutritionist. He was actually present during Patriot practices. Eventually, that situation went sideways with Belichick ad became one of the reasons Brady moved on to Tampa.

 

[Mr teX]

That's right. Later in his career, I believe Tom Brady had an exclusive guy, who was also his physical trainer and maybe nutritionist. He was actually present during Patriot practices. Eventually, that situation went sideways with Belichick ad became one of the reasons Brady moved on to Tampa.

That went sideways more b/c Brady started trying to up his branding profile with that TB12 method stuff and his guy started having that crap start to interfere with how Beli wanted to run his players and team. Had it just stayed confined to Brady it probably would’ve been OK. But then Brady’s guy tried expanding to Edelman and then Gronk.

 

[Lucky]

That went sideways more b/c Brady started trying to up his branding profile with that TB12 method stuff and his guy started having that crap start to interfere with how Beli wanted to run his players and team. Had it just stayed confined to Brady it probably would’ve been OK. But then Brady’s guy tried expanding to Edelman and then Gronk.

I think if Kraft had it do over, he'd say "Tom, do what you want. And if you don't like it Bill, hit the road."

 

[Mr teX]

I think if Kraft had it do over, he'd say "Tom, do what you want. And if you don't like it Bill, hit the road."

He already sorta did that when he basically told Bill to trade Garapolo instead of Brady.

 

[steelbtexan]

I think if Kraft had it do over, he'd say "Tom, do what you want. And if you don't like it Bill, hit the road."

Doubtful

You really cant stand Belichick.

 

[Lucky]

Doubtful

You really cant stand Belichick.

I think Belichick is one of the great defensive coaches of our time. #1 maybe. That and $500 for a Super Bowl ticket gets you to the big game without Brady. The Belichick way has never been successfully exported. Because the Belichick way doesn't work without Brady. That's been proven.

I thought you said I hated Brady? Try to keep your narratives straight.

 

[TexansBull]

I think if Kraft had it do over, he'd say "Tom, do what you want. And if you don't like it Bill, hit the road."

I think if he had to do it over again Kraft wouldn’t let Bill have so much autonomy during the draft process. Probably tighten the reigns in 2010 or later.

When he went rogue not listening to scouts and drafting WR like N’Keal Harry instead of A.J Brown or D. K. Metcalf hurt the team that Brady had to move on. Brady had no one to work with.

 

[NitroGSXR]

I think if he had to do it over again Kraft wouldn’t let Bill have so much autonomy during the draft process. Probably tighten the reigns in 2010 or later.

When he went rogue not listening to scouts and drafting WR like N’Keal Harry instead of A.J Brown or D. K. Metcalf hurt the team that Brady had to move on. Brady had no one to work with.

After seeing Brady immediately win a SB in Tampa… that’s when the writing was on the wall for Belichick, IMO.

 

[Mr teX]

I think Belichick is one of the great defensive coaches of out time. #1 maybe. That and $500 for a Super Bowl ticket gets you to the big game without Brady. The Belichick way has never been successfully exported. Because the Belichick way doesn't work without Brady. That's been proven.

I thought you said I hated Brady? Try to keep your narratives straight.

Its more like the Belichick/Patriot way doesn't work with today's NFL player. Shula, Noll and Landry had no problems implementing it back in the day tho.

 

[Deadpool]

I think Belichick is one of the great defensive coaches of out time. #1 maybe. That and $500 for a Super Bowl ticket gets you to the big game without Brady. The Belichick way has never been successfully exported. Because the Belichick way doesn't work without Brady. That's been proven.

I thought you said I hated Brady? Try to keep your narratives straight.

BB was mediocre as a HC WITHOUT Brady. His record without Tom demonstrates that.

 

[Mr teX]

BB was mediocre as a HC WITHOUT Brady. His record without Tom demonstrates that.

This says nothing really. Take the star qb from any HC and they're more often than not just going to be "mediocore". They both needed each other to have the success they had. Brady going to TB and winning another SB doesn't change that b/c without Beli's defenses in those 1st 3 SB's Brady likely ends up Greg Norman, Andy Roddick status..That is, very good, but limited in his overall team success. in that regard, we're probably talking about Peyton Manning as the GOAT instead.

 

[Deadpool]

This says nothing really. Take the star qb from any HC and they're more often than not just going to be "mediocore". They both needed each other to have the success they had. Brady going to TB and winning another SB doesn't change that b/c without Beli's defenses in those 1st 3 SB's Brady likely ends up Greg Norman, Andy Roddick status..That is, very good, but limited in his overall team success. in that regard, we're probably talking about Peyton Manning as the GOAT instead.

One great man once said "The cream will rise to the top"... I have a good feeling that Brady would have been just fine eventually without BB. In fact, if he had ended up with a guy like Andy Reid or another offensive mastermind, he probably would have been even better. Matter of fact, the only year he had a superstar at WR he broke records. McDaniels without Brady looked like complete trash. So he not only helped BB, he made McDaniels too.

 

[Mr teX]

One great man once said "The cream will rise to the top"... I have a good feeling that Brady would have been just fine eventually without BB. In fact, if he had ended up with a guy like Andy Reid or another offensive mastermind, he probably would have been even better. Matter of fact, the only year he had a superstar at WR he broke records. McDaniels without Brady looked like complete trash. So he not only helped BB, he made McDaniels too.

No doubt...but would he be considered the GOAT is really what this comes down to & i have strong reservations about that. Brady started out 7th on the depth chart. It was only Beli's patience with him that allowed him to climb the ladder in that org like he did. Almost any other team, he's probably practice squad and/or outright cut before he is able to Wally Pip Bledsoe. & going further most other HC's would've went right back to Bledsoe once he got healthy. Belichick instead stuck with Brady..& the rest is history. Belichick isn't given enough credit for essentially benching a perennial pro bowl, all pro QB in favor of a 6th round maybe qb. Furthermore What separates Manning from Brady in the 15-20 years they battled is Bill Bellichick.. & how he was able to devise schemes to smother Manning's offenses when he was at his absolute peak...& going further how Belichick was able to shut down some of the most prolific offenses in that 20 year Pats run..enough for Brady and his offenses to be able to compete. It was his defenses that paced the Pats in those early years & That has little to do with Brady.

 

[Deadpool]

No doubt...but would he be considered the GOAT is really what this comes down to & i have strong reservations about that. Brady started out 7th on the depth chart. It was only Beli's patience with him that allowed him to climb the ladder in that org like he did. Almost any other team, he's probably practice squad and/or outright cut before he is able to Wally Pip Bledsoe. & going further most other HC's would've went right back to Bledsoe once he got healthy. Belichick instead stuck with Brady..& the rest is history. Belichick isn't given enough credit for essentially benching a perennial pro bowl, all pro QB in favor of a 6th round maybe qb. Furthermore What separates Manning from Brady in the 15-20 years they battled is Bill Bellichick.. & how he was able to devise schemes to smother Manning's offenses when he was at his absolute peak...& going further how Belichick was able to shut down some of the most prolific offenses in that 20 year Pats run..enough for Brady and his offenses to be able to compete. It was his defenses that paced the Pats in those early years & That has little to do with Brady.

Eh. It's ok, you're a huge fan of BB and I think (going off of stats and records without Brady) that he's mediocre. All good.

 

[Texansballer74]

20 years of success, come on guys why would Kraft think if I can do that particular situation all over again.

And please stop it. They won together and that’s all that freaking matters. If if if, man please. That skit doesn’t work like that.

 

[Deadpool]

20 years of success, come on guys why would Kraft think if I can do that particular situation all over again.

And please stop it. They won together and that’s all that freaking matters. If if if, man please. That skit doesn’t work like that.

Lol. Ok. Y'all sure do defend BB for a Texans forum. Nothing will change the fact that outside of Brady the guy has a track record of mediocrity, whereas without BB, Brady won a Superbowl in his 40s

 

[Texansballer74]

Lol. Ok. Y'all sure do defend BB for a Texans forum. Nothing will change the fact that outside of Brady the guy has a track record of mediocrity, whereas without BB, Brady won a Superbowl in his 40s

I’m not defending either one of them. What I’m saying is that’s the silliest argument in the sports world. I’ve heard people argue Phil Jackson legacy. Saying if he didn’t have Michael Jordan and company, Kobe Bryant, Shaq and company. He wouldn’t or he’s not a good coach.

Brady wasn’t Brady until he was coached the heck up. Every freaking player except Chad Johnson were able to buy into that system and be successful. Not just Tom Brady.

 

[Sweech]

I think if Kraft had it do over, he'd say "Tom, do what you want. And if you don't like it Bill, hit the road."

With how much the team was lacking talent I don't think it would have played out much better than how it did.

 

[Sweech]

Lol. Ok. Y'all sure do defend BB for a Texans forum. Nothing will change the fact that outside of Brady the guy has a track record of mediocrity, whereas without BB, Brady won a Superbowl in his 40s

Without Brady he still has a track record of coaching up some of the best defenses in the league. Which is often what wins the championships. You brought up Andy Reid earlier and right now he and Mahomes are riding Spagnuolo's defense to success.

Brady has 7 Superbowl rings. Belichick has 8. He's a bit better than mediocre I'd wager.

 

[Deadpool]

I’m not defending either one of them. What I’m saying is that the silliest argument in the sports world. I’ve heard people argue Phil Jackson legacy. Saying if he didn’t have Michael Jordan and company, Kobe Bryant, Shaq and company. He wouldn’t or he’s not a good coach.

Brady wasn’t Brady until he was coached the heck up. Every freaking player except Chad Johnson were able to buy into that system and be successful. Not just Tom Brady.

I'll say that Phil Jackson was a good coach even without said players

 

[Deadpool]

With how much the team was lacking talent I don't think it would have played out much better than how it did.

Who was the GM responsible for bringing talent in? It's like that guy deserved to be fired for his ineptitude for that, whoever it was

 

[Deadpool]

Without Brady he still has a track record of coaching up some of the best defenses in the league. Which is often what wins the championships. You brought up Andy Reid earlier and right now he and Mahomes are riding Spagnuolo's defense to success.

Brady has 7 Superbowl rings. Belichick has 8. He's a bit better than mediocre I'd wager.

Eh. Reid did great with McNabb, Alex Smith, etc.

 

[Deadpool]

Additionally, BB won two Superbowls as DC. He's a great DC. But saying he won 8 is a little bit misleading as he wasn't the HC for two of those.

 

[JB]

Additionally, BB won two Superbowls as DC. He's a great DC. But saying he won 8 is a little bit misleading as he wasn't the HC for two of those.

But he did turn a very mediocre Cleveland team into a good team long before Brady

 

[Sweech]

Eh. Reid did great with McNabb, Alex Smith, etc.

Yeah I think Reid is great.

That's kind of the difference here I don't need to denigrate one guy to raise up another.

 

[Sweech]

Additionally, BB won two Superbowls as DC. He's a great DC. But saying he won 8 is a little bit misleading as he wasn't the HC for two of those.

It's not misleading at all - He won 8 superbowls.

2 of them while he was a coordinator isn't some kind of throw away feat.

 

[Sweech]

Who was the GM responsible for bringing talent in? It's like that guy deserved to be fired for his ineptitude for that, whoever it was

Yeah his GMing started to suck and I can't say he didn't deserve to not be fired.

But him deserving to be fired now doesn't mean that I'm not going to still consider him the best defensive head coach of all time. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

BB is still the coaching GOAT and everyone else is trying to catch up.