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G.O.A.T. or duck: Bill Belichick

Texansballer74 said:
Please stop it. He coached up Brady and that team. That’s a HOF coach when it’s all said and done.
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Such a great coach why didn't he coach up the losing teams he had in Cleveland.

He has done squat without Brady.

Think I would wait before I cast his bust for Canton.

We are drifting from the topic.

:coffee:
 
cuppacoffee said:
Such a great coach why didn't he coach up the losing teams he had in Cleveland.

He has done squat without Brady.

Think I would wait before I cast his bust for Canton.

We are drifting from the topic.

:coffee:
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That’s a totally different situation. You’re not going to win everywhere you coached. He won 6 in New England, dominated that division for 20 years. You can’t discredit that.

You drifted off topic.
 
Texansballer74 said:
That’s a totally different situation. You’re not going to win everywhere you coached. He won 6 in New England, dominated that division for 20 years. You can’t discredit that.

You drifted off topic.
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Dominated with Brady. Nowhere else.

We shall find out in the near future about his greatness without Brady.

Admitted drifting. Didn't intend to lay that on you.

:coffee:
 
cuppacoffee said:
Dominated with Brady. Nowhere else.

We shall find out in the near future about his greatness without Brady.

Admitted drifting. Didn't intend to lay that on you.

:coffee:
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It doesn’t matter, at the end of the day he was the coach. He coached Brady up to fit into his system from day one. Brady mastered that game plan and the rest is history. In the beginning Brady was just a game manager.
 
Texansballer74 said:
It doesn’t matter, at the end of the day he was the coach. He coached Brady up to fit into his system from day one. Brady mastered that game plan and the rest is history. In the beginning Brady was just a game manager.
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We shall soon see just how great he is or just another guy.

Last year, same team minus Brady 7-9.
.
Game manager Brady in Tampa..Team goes to super bowl.

:coffee:
 
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cuppacoffee said:
We shall soon see just how great he is or just another guy.

Last year, same team minus Brady 7-9.
.
Game manager Brady in Tampa..Team goes to super bowl.

:coffee:
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Do you think Bill Parcels or Jimmy Johnson are any good as coaches? Joe Gibbs?

Belichick is going into the HOF. He’s the G.O.A.T.

Even if the only thing he did right was to put the 6th round flyer on the active roster.
 
Texansballer74 said:
His legacy is already stamped amongst the greats whether you like it or not. I guess Phil Jackson isn’t a great coach because he had Jordan and Scottie and then Kobe/Shaq.
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Not a matter of me liking it or not. Just my opinion.

Don't know anything about bounce ball, it's players or coaches. Don't want to know.

All those Belichik trained proteges who leave and fail. They couldn't take Brady with them.

:coffee:
 
That’s a very flawed opinion. Your opinion comes off as hate. Does this opinion applies for Andy Reid or every other coach that’s won a SB?
 
cuppacoffee said:
Flawed? Why, because it differs from yours? :shades:

Hate? You're losing perspective.

Reid, every coach? Strawman much?

:coffee:
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Nope not because it differs from mine but because of the basis of your argument just doesn’t make any sense. Tom Brady wouldn’t have 6 Super Bowls without him or that great defense. Several of those Super Bowls the defense was the juggernaut. You’re attempting to discredit the greatness of Bill Belichick which is flat out wrong.
 
Texansballer74 said:
Nope not because it differs from mine but because of the basis of your argument just doesn’t make any sense. Tom Brady wouldn’t have 6 Super Bowls without him or that great defense. Several of those Super Bowls the defense was the juggernaut. You’re attempting to discredit the greatness of Bill Belichick which is flat out wrong.
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First year away from Bellichik Brady took a team to the Super Bowl.

Next couple of years should reinforce or debunk my argument. We shall see.

How long do you think it will take BB to reach /win another Super Bowl?

Last reply, gotta get on topic.

:coffee:
 
cuppacoffee said:
Dominated with Brady. Nowhere else.

We shall find out in the near future about his greatness without Brady.

Admitted drifting. Didn't intend to lay that on you.

:coffee:
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Have any coaches dominated with more than 1 QB or across multiple teams?

You’ve got to make the most of what you get, have to make the system fit your QB. Brady has been great but BB has been a big part of that success, whether he can find another QB to be that successful with or not.
 
cuppacoffee said:
Such a great coach why didn't he coach up the losing teams he had in Cleveland.

He has done squat without Brady.

Think I would wait before I cast his bust for Canton.

We are drifting from the topic.

:coffee:
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If you get a chance, watch A Football Life: Cleveland '95.

He was coaching up the Browns. Jackass owner screwed it up.

Ozzie Newsome cites Belichick as the reason why the Baltimore Ravens were ready to put together a great team and win championships.

cuppacoffee said:
FTR I never said BB wasn't a good coach.

Just not the goat without Brady. Not casting his bronze bust just yet. Let's see how he does now without Brady.

I'd put Bill Walsh head and shoulders above Belichick.

:coffee:
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What did he ever do without Joe Montana?
 
We all suffer from recency bias. For the record, Paul Brown is the GOAT HC & it’s not really close…..Belichick himself would probably tell you that. He dominated the AAFL when he coached there…. came over to the NFL, built a team from scratch & then proceeded to dominate there as well. He innovated in ways that still resonate today (scouting reports, game film, helmet speakers etc).. and has the greatest coaching tree..1st generation alone includes Shula, Eubanks and Walsh; Eubanks by extension includes Belichick.

Beli is probably the last name on that Mt. Rushmore tho…
 
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cuppacoffee said:
:uprights:

:coffee:
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I'm not moving the goal post, I'm trying to understand your side of the argument. Arians won a Super Bowl. Was that because he is a good coach, or because he has a GM that was able to land Brady?

He was 7-9 without Brady. 11-5 with Brady....

If Dirk Koetter was the coach in Tampa, would they have won the SB?

Would Brady even go to Tampa if Arians wasn't there?


Look, I get it. Brady was a huge part of New England's Dynasty. But he didn't do it by himself. Winning is a team activity & Belichick built & developed the team around Brady. Offense, Defense, & STs. Complimentary football. I'm pretty sure that catch phrase came out of New England
 
Mr teX said:
We all suffer from recency bias. For the record, Paul Brown is the GOAT HC & it’s not really close…..Belichick himself would probably tell you that. He dominated the AAFL when he coached there…. came over to the NFL, built a team from scratch & then proceeded to dominate there as well. He innovated in ways that still resonate today (scouting reports, game film, helmet speakers etc).. and has the greatest coaching tree..1st generation alone includes Shula, Eubanks and Walsh; Eubanks by extension includes Belichick.

Beli is probably the last name on that Mt. Rushmore tho…
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To be fair, back in the day it was called innovation. Recently they call it cheating.
 
Double Barrel said:
If you get a chance, watch A Football Life: Cleveland '95.

He was coaching up the Browns. Jackass owner screwed it up.

Ozzie Newsome cites Belichick as the reason why the Baltimore Ravens were ready to put together a great team and win championships.



What did he ever do without Joe Montana?
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Every great HC has a great QB.

Rarely does a HC have 2 great QB's in his career.
 
Mr teX said:
We all suffer from recency bias. For the record, Paul Brown is the GOAT HC & it’s not really close…..Belichick himself would probably tell you that. He dominated the AAFL when he coached there…. came over to the NFL, built a team from scratch & then proceeded to dominate there as well. He innovated in ways that still resonate today (scouting reports, game film, helmet speakers etc).. and has the greatest coaching tree..1st generation alone includes Shula, Eubanks and Walsh; Eubanks by extension includes Belichick.

Beli is probably the last name on that Mt. Rushmore tho…
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Great post

Brown/Lombardi/Walsh/Beilcheck/Landry/Shula/Noll
 
steelbtexan said:
Great post

Brown/Lombardi/Walsh/Beilcheck/Landry/Shula/Noll
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I’d add Gillman. Lombardi was more of a taskmaster than anything….the rest of the guys on your list were educators and innovators. looking at your list, 3 of those guys have direct ties back to Brown either as former players and/or assistants (Walsh,Shula & Noll)…& that says a lot about his influence.
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm not moving the goal post, I'm trying to understand your side of the argument. Arians won a Super Bowl. Was that because he is a good coach, or because he has a GM that was able to land Brady?

He was 7-9 without Brady. 11-5 with Brady....

If Dirk Koetter was the coach in Tampa, would they have won the SB?

Would Brady even go to Tampa if Arians wasn't there?

Look, I get it. Brady was a huge part of New England's Dynasty. But he didn't do it by himself. Winning is a team activity & Belichick built & developed the team around Brady. Offense, Defense, & STs. Complimentary football. I'm pretty sure that catch phrase came out of New England
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Never claimed Ariens is anything more than a good coach, same as BB.

BB's record last year w/o Brady 7- 9. You kinda proved my point TK.

We don't know the answer to either of your questions.

Just discussing whether BB is the goat. I disagree.

Ask yourself, "If I could have any coach, in his prime, to come coach the Texans" who would you choose?

Wouldn't that be the goat in your estimation? That is the discussion G.O.A.T.

:coffee:
 
Mr teX said:
I’d add Gillman. Lombardi was more of a taskmaster than anything….the rest of the guys on your list were educators and innovators. looking at your list, 3 of those guys have direct ties back to Brown either as former players and/or assistants (Walsh,Shula & Noll)…& that says a lot about his influence.
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Top of a short list of candidates for goat coach.

:coffee:
 
IDEXAN said:
If TB12 is the GOAT, then IMO so is Belichick as those SB wins are a joint accomplishment most of all between the HC & QB.
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^^^^
This

Brady was bad in the last SB, minus that 1 throw to Gronk.

Belichick's defense shutdown McVay's offense.

Like you said 2 worlds of greatness collided. Both Belichick/Brady are GOAT's
 
Guess the disconnect here is the meaning of goat.

In my mind there can only be one goat.

The rest can only be mentioned among the other good / great coaches.

No way BB leapfrogs some of the other great coaches mentioned in this thread. IMNSHO

:coffee:
 
Mr teX said:
We all suffer from recency bias. For the record, Paul Brown is the GOAT HC & it’s not really close…..Belichick himself would probably tell you that. He dominated the AAFL when he coached there…. came over to the NFL, built a team from scratch & then proceeded to dominate there as well. He innovated in ways that still resonate today (scouting reports, game film, helmet speakers etc).. and has the greatest coaching tree..1st generation alone includes Shula, Eubanks and Walsh; Eubanks by extension includes Belichick.

Beli is probably the last name on that Mt. Rushmore tho…
Click to expand...

Very well said. The league would not even be close to what it is today without Paul Brown.

steelbtexan said:
Great post

Brown/Lombardi/Walsh/Beilcheck/Landry/Shula/Noll
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Good list. I put Landry very high on the list, and I've never ever been a Cowboys fan. After watching his Football Life story and seeing his impact on the league, I walked away convinced that the championship trophy should have been called the Landry. Lombardi was basically running Landry's playbook from when they were assistants together with the Giants.

Beyond Landry's innovations, he was a head coach with a 20 year run without a losing season. Just amazing.
 
cuppacoffee said:
Guess the disconnect here is the meaning of goat.

In my mind there can only be one goat.

The rest can only be mentioned among the other good / great coaches.

No way BB leapfrogs some of the other great coaches mentioned in this thread. IMNSHO

:coffee:
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To me, it's about winning SBs. Bill Belichick won more than anyone else. That makes him the Goat imo.

If I were running the Texans heck yeah I'd be trying to get Belichick. We already have a bunch of his staff in place.
 
thunderkyss said:
Are you saying Tom Landry is the Greatest of All Time? Why would he be?
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Saying that judging Belichick by what he did in Cleveland is dumb.

Though Landry did go to the playoffs like 17 years in a row and went to and won multiple SBs. Pretty Belichick-esque.
 
Mr teX said:
We all suffer from recency bias. For the record, Paul Brown is the GOAT HC & it’s not really close…..Belichick himself would probably tell you that. He dominated the AAFL when he coached there…. came over to the NFL, built a team from scratch & then proceeded to dominate there as well. He innovated in ways that still resonate today (scouting reports, game film, helmet speakers etc).. and has the greatest coaching tree..1st generation alone includes Shula, Eubanks and Walsh; Eubanks by extension includes Belichick.

Beli is probably the last name on that Mt. Rushmore tho…
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Paul Brown's coaching tree is insane! Belichick got his greatest influence while with the Giants but what I didn't know was he got his start under Marchibroda.
 
Speedy said:
Saying that judging Belichick by what he did in Cleveland is dumb.

Though Landry did go to the playoffs like 17 years in a row and went to and won multiple SBs. Pretty Belichick-esque.
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Yeah, same can be said about OBrien.

Can't judge him by what he did in Houston. Gotta wait and see how OBrien does going forward.

Although OBrien did do better in his short stay in Houston than BB did in Cleveland.

See how easy that is. Just have to have a short memory.

Strange that BB's "clerk" gets blamed for Pats. poor drafting and BB gets credit for the GOAT QB winning super bowls.

Guy's a media creation. Stand by and watch.

:coffee:
 
cuppacoffee said:
Yeah, same can be said about OBrien.
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17 straight 10+ win seasons (1 of those was without Brady BTW), 9 conference championship wins, 6 SB wins, 3rd most wins by an NFL HC in history, yeah, you go right ahead and compare him to ******* O’Brein.

Sheesh!!!

Don’t know what some of you people smoke, but I want no part of that stupid shit.
 
Speedy said:
17 straight 10+ win seasons (1 of those was without Brady BTW), 9 conference championship wins, 6 SB wins, 3rd most wins by an NFL HC in history, yeah, you go right ahead and compare him to ******* O’Brein.

Sheesh!!!

Don’t know what some of you people smoke, but I want no part of that stupid shit.
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Only one winning season without Brady? Sheesh. Kinda makes my point for me. Thanks.

Bill OBrien had a winning record 5 of the seven years he coached the Texans, without a GOAT QB. Won four division titles.

BB will be average without Brady.

Bill Belichick is 61-72 without Tom Brady, which is worse than the 61-66 record that head coach Rex Ryan put up in his glory days. Belichick had endured a 5-11 season in 2000 and was winless in 2001 before Brady fell into his lap.Feb 26, 2021.

bill belichick coaching record without tom brady - Google Search

www.google.com

:coffee:
 
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cuppacoffee said:
Only one winning season without Brady? Sheesh. Kinda makes my point for me. Thanks.

Bill OBrien had a winning record 5 of the seven years he coached the Texans, without a GOAT QB. Won four division titles.

BB will be average without Brady.

Bill Belichick is 61-72 without Tom Brady, which is worse than the 61-66 record that head coach Rex Ryan put up in his glory days. Belichick had endured a 5-11 season in 2000 and was winless in 2001 before Brady fell into his lap.Feb 26, 2021.

bill belichick coaching record without tom brady - Google Search

www.google.com

:coffee:
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Making your point?? You have no ******* point. Bill O’Brien vs Bill Belichick?? Come on man!! This is the dumbest conversation I’ve ever had in my life.
 
Speedy said:
It isn’t about agreeing or disagreeing. You’re just wrong.
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I do know that OBrien wasn't in BB's class. Just foolin around there.

As far as BB goes, we will now see how great he is without Brady.

My contention right now is if/when BB makes the HOF he should have an asterisk behind his name.

No right or wrong yet. Time will tell. :tiphat: We good?

:coffee:
 
You think if Hue Jackson, or even O’Brien, had been HC of the Pats the last 20 years that they’d have 9 conference titles and 6 Lombardi’s just because of Brady? Get real.

Dude, you’re talking about the 3rd winningest coach of all time. Brady didn’t do all that shit by himself. Brady didn’t play on those top 10 defenses. And of course it was Belichick who made the move to stick with Brady instead of bringing Bledsoe back.

I guess Tom Landry was garbage without Staubach. Chuck Noll without a team full of Hall of Famers? Trash. Sean Payton without Drew Brees? Please. By your logic there can be no such thing as a great coach because you think the players make him.

Bobby Cox was a horrible manager without Maddox, Smoltz and Glavine. Phil Jackson was the worst without MJ and then Shaq and Kobe.

Give the dude his credit. Nobody wins forever. And to win as much as he has, especially in a league of parity like the NFL is, that’s quite an accomplishment regardless of who the freaking QB is.
 
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Those early runs when they were most dominant and won 3 championships in 4 years, Brady never threw 30 TDs or over 4000 yards in a season, never was an all pro and the offense didn't run thru him but thru the run game with Smith, Dillon & those guys.. His stats show it, his accolades show it and in general how those teams won (with defense) show that TB12 as we know him today wasn't much more than what Schaub was for us circa 2008-9...So you have to deduct off of TB12's greatness & add to BB's for that.

So I believe early on in their run BB was the more dominant force just b/c of how he ran his teams, but over time that eroded a bit to where towards the end of their run it evened out more. For me tho, i still give the edge to BB b/c The best thing Brady did for so long was be a good soldier and allow BB to run/control the team how a HC needs to. Had TB12 been more in the vein of a guy like Rodgers, TB12 is probably shipped out of there after 5-8 years & we're not having this convo.
 
Mr teX said:
Those early runs when they were most dominant and won 3 championships in 4 years, Brady never threw 30 TDs or over 4000 yards in a season, never was an all pro and the offense didn't run thru him but thru the run game with Smith, Dillon & those guys.. His stats show it, his accolades show it and in general how those teams won (with defense) show that TB12 as we know him today wasn't much more than what Schaub was for us circa 2008-9...So you have to deduct off of TB12's greatness & add to BB's for that.

So I believe early on in their run BB was the more dominant force just b/c of how he ran his teams, but over time that eroded a bit to where towards the end of their run it evened out more. For me tho, i still give the edge to BB b/c The best thing Brady did for so long was be a good soldier and allow BB to run/control the team how a HC needs to. Had TB12 been more in the vein of a guy like Rodgers, TB12 is probably shipped out of there after 5-8 years & we're not having this convo.
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Comparing Brady to Schaub? LMAO

At no time in their careers has Schaub been remotely at clutch as Brady.

This is a case of numbers lying.
 
steelbtexan said:
Comparing Brady to Schaub? LMAO

At no time in their careers has Schaub been remotely at clutch as Brady.

This is a case of numbers lying.
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As usual you miss the point, take a statement completely out of context…& you’re wrong. Clutch is relative….Brady’s “clutchness” in those early years….which is what I was referring to, mostly amounted to him relying on BB ‘s defense shutting down some of the most prolific offenses, & being a high end game manager that moved the ball 30-45 yards so that Vinatieri could perform the real clutch act of kicking the game winning FG. There’s a reason he is considered the most clutch kicker in NFL history & it’s b/c 2 SB’s were won directly due to that guy’s foot.

Brady damn near threw the 1st SB away with that tuck rule nonsense, and in those other early 2 he only threw for more than 250 yards in a game once in 6 games….& you can argue that was really only b/c that SB went to OT. Yeah he gets some credit for moving them in position for the GW FG….but how hard is it really for an NFL Qb to throw check downs all the way into FG position against a defense playing prevent trying not to get beat deep in a close game? Schaub with our best teams just was never close enough in a lot of games to have that scenario arise…but we saw him do it a few times….only to watch Chris Brown and Fat Bullock blow the games.
 
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