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DW4 staying or going?
- Thread starter FireBOB
- Start date
As an ex cult leader, I find this highly offensive.
Loved for putting my full name in your post.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
You realize the Texans could play this out indefinitely, right? Probably not likely, but that is a possibility. And as long as Watson is holding out (if he does), those years on his contract remain. The Texans decide his future in football. The only decision team Watson has in that regard is to suit up in battle blue and play.
The Texans either decide to move on and get a boat load of picks for him, or they play hardball and let him sit out, retire, or whatever, take their 0-2 win season and still move on. That's pretty much it. The only cards Watson holds is to cut the bullshit and play.
I don't know why you're on the Watson can make money and succeed elsewhere trip. Of course he can. He's a phenomenal talent. But I'm still not making the connection of what that has to do with the situation at hand. He doesn't go elsewhere to "come out on top" if the Texans don't allow it. At least not in football.
Some lose like Palmer.
With the way the new CBA is worded the fines for holding out are much more prohibitive than the time you're talking about
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Gotta say TB, I thought you were more of a DW4 fan than a Texans fan. I was wrong and I apologize.
You're not getting my points.
You need to re-read all of my posts.
My main point is that a lose-lose situation is bad for both sides .
The McNairs stand to lose hundred of millions in a stalemate.
Who cares whether Watson gets his wish.
The fans will be screwed if both sides play hardball.
You like to play hard ball; that's your choice.
My preference is to get as many picks as possible.
It's better for a rebuild than an unhappy QB.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
The Texans FO is a really special kind of stupid. They essentially took out a horrible ARM Loan to pay Watson money they never had to give him. They could've given Watson a nice contract that pushed his income into the 25-30M per season on the same short-term contract. Front loaded it with a fat signing bonus and then went about the business of building a team around him. Watson's 2020 stats were not his 2019 stats, so the Texans could've knocked out a deal with him mostly around the size of the signing bonus and it might've got things done.
Now, the idiots known as the Texans FO are staring down the reality that Watson's big money (second leg of their ARM Loan) is just a season away and they don't have the cap nor draft assets to improve the team around him for the 2021 season. Like a sinking ship.....Caserio now has to find every bit of wasted weight to toss overboard which may allow it to float but one good swell will surely sink it.
If Watson were to stay, Caserio and the team would have to come to grips with the idea that 2021 will be pretty ugly. They'd have to hope like hail that their new scouting team can somehow make the picks in 21 count by adding potential starters, surprises, and depth at minimum.
I truly hope they do not continue to cut players like Cooks and Fells to gain more cap space versus finding a trade partner for these two. Another RD3 and a RD5 would be a pretty decent return for both while removing their money from the cap.
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maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Whoa whoa whoa hold up there cowboy. Before Watson penned that deal almost everyone on here were saying things like “Texans better not screw this up and try to low ball Watson or wait to make a deal like Dallas did because we have to lock down our franchise QB”. Only @Corrosion and @steelbtexan were saying don’t sign him yet make him play out the 5th year or do a smaller contract with ways out, though they were saying it for different reasons, and both caught all kinds of flak for it.
Then after he signed the response was “Good Texans finally did something smart and paid him what he’s worth.” In fact whenever talk about the years his big money hits were coming lots of people, including yourself I believe, were talking about how they and Watson would restructure so the hits weren’t as bad and we could build a championship team.
Now that Watson is singing a different tune and acting completely different now the talk is they shouldn’t have offered the mega deal? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Exactly how will the fans be screwed? The team is going to suck with or without DW4.
Agreed about the last 2 sentences in your post.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Who exactly on this board was advocating for a Mahomes type of deal? I don't recall many saying the Texans should give Watson that type of money. I'm always on the side of approaching a player before his contract plays out and offering them an extension if the performance has been there......don't wait for the player and his agent to come knocking on the door and demanding an extension, it'll be too late for a smart extension.
Yes, after the deal was announced.....I did in fact state, that the Texans could probably re-work this contract provided they were building a contender around him and needed the wiggle room to add final pieces.
I always have a method to my madness but the Texans have proven over and over again that they're just rich idiots with zero football acumen. Their past moves have left fans speechless and other NFL professionals laughing at their more recent moves. "The Texans FO Idiots" have successfully become the laughing stock organization in all of professional sports. I don't know if they'll turn this around but I keep myself entertained by coming up with ideas on how to improve this team. This has been onging since 1969....when I started rooting for the Oilers.
I think you take out the missunderstandings found in the written medium......... and I think more people here see eye to eye more than they would like to admit.
I mean, why be a fairweather fan of this dumpster fire?
Loving a player is all well and good and I think most are fans of the team itself because of our city, not because the McNairs deserve a have fan base by impeccable leadership, or Easterbys moral compass.
At the end of the day I think we all want what is best for the team, we just dont all agree what that looks like.
Im told by my wife its okay not to agree with me... but... I guess she is right, people have the right to be wrong all they want.....I understand by experience, its sometimes a bad thing when you're always right.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Agreed
How so?
Don't care.
Fans will be screwed regardless.
Never said I wanted to play hardball. I can see why the Texans would want to though. I can see why they'd want their $27M back. Not that that matters to me, but I can understand why it matters to them.
As is mine. But I don't deal him if I don't get what I think he's worth. And if I can, and he doesn't want to go there, then he stays. The Texans don't need to be in desperation mode on this. If that means playing hardball and waiting until next year then so be it.
None of that, however, explains you bringing into the conversation that he's going to get his money, he's going to come out on top. Still don't get what that has to do with anything. None of that is the issue. The issue is trading him and getting a boat load of picks and moving on, or playing hardball with him. Who cares if he sits out and comes back to have an outstanding career and makes gobs of money? Again, that has nothing to do with the situation at hand, which is, trade him or hardball him.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
So let me lay out this scenario to you. Texans decide to hold off on making Watson an offer or they make him a more “wait and see” short term type of offer. Watson looks at them like they are crazy because he knows he can get a huge deal pretty much anywhere. National media and local media are all asking what the hell Texans are thinking and why aren’t they locking him down.
Watson plays out his 5th year and let’s say it’s this last year where he had his personal best year ever even if the record as whole sucked. Now the Texans are trying to sign him, they either A: pay way more than they did even in the real world and Watson becomes the new highest paid player in history or B: he pulls an Osweiler says they disrespected him plays out the one or two year tags and then signs a deal with another team again becoming the new highest paid player in history.
Now you tell me what this board, Houston fans in general and the media’s reaction would be. Like I said hindsight is a wonderful thing.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
So you're saying that the Texans would've got the blank stare if they'd approached Watson after the 2019 season about an extension? An extension that would've given him Rodgers and Brady type of money for the work he'd done to date. I think he'd be all over that deal. That's not hindsight.
I said the same thing about Hopkins. The Texans were in a position to come to him before he felt like he was being underpaid for the job he was doing. Sure he signed a contract and just like the owners (when they cut a player before their contract plays out), it's his prerogative to go and ask for a raise.....just like in the real world.
Me, Hopkins was a major cog in whatever success this team was enjoying. I was stating then that had they used initiative and approached Hopkins about a raise or doing nothing more than guaranteeing his remaining years on his contract....he's probably with the Texans going into 2021. A lot of positive things can be accomplished with being pro-active versus reactive.
banned1976
sleeper mode
It is. And how are we going to look back on your post if the Texans, with Watson leading the way, go on to win multiple Super Bowls?
I still believe the Texans can get out of this predicament they're in because I believe they got the GM hire right. Am I positive about that, no I am not. Caserio certainly has the resume that would make one believe that he can do it, however.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
I’ll look back on it and say “Glad I was wrong.” but that doesn’t equal saying they should have done things differently. Just like the Tunsil trade, at the time I thought it was right on the mark value wise, we went 4-12 and that would have been 3rd overall and with that information it was indeed an overpay. Doesn’t mean I don’t stand by what I said before and given the same information we had then I would still say it was a good move.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Entirely different circumstances. Hopkins has 3 years left on his deal, he would have been with the Te and going into 2021 even if they don’t give him a raise. He only thought he was unpaid once other players in a similar role got paid when he signed the deal it was very good pay for a WR. In fact his deal was part of the reason those other players could get a bigger deal.
Also even a HoF WR is not worth even close or dealt with the same as a franchise QB.
This depends on 3 things
1. How good do you really think DW4 is and there's no way I would've signed him to that deal after 51-7. I didn't like the leadership shown by BOB and team leaders DW4/Watt etc... I wanted a full and total housecleaning after 51-7.
2. Are you willing to take the risk of paying him more by waiting, theoretically keeping the sB window open an extra yr before the big money hits on his contract extension a couple of yrs after he signs it?
3. Do you care what the media thinks?
The McNair's did what the McNair's always do, take the avenue with the least amount of risk.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
To be fair it’s what almost every other NFL team would have done as well.
Everybody but Jerrah.
He won't be giving back the bonus ..... its against the CBA to "give back money".
The Texans are on the hook for that and should they trade him , the team receiving him would enjoy the benefit for four seasons , equivalent to a ~$5.5m player on their roster but on the Texans 2021 cap.
EDIT to clarify : The only way the Texans can go after that money is with Watson sitting out or retiring. In any situation where he plays , the Texans are on the hook for that money.
When I said he'd get his money, it was about him not having to sign the extension.
To me, it was better that he doesn't sign it .
He will get his money in FA just the same, or maybe less, or maybe more.
At least, he'll be a FA.
To me, he did the Texans a favor by signing that contract. With it in place, the Texans can trade him for multi valuable picks.
At that time, I said "if I was Watson's agent, I would have advised him not to sign the extension".
I can see the ship sinking.
(Many of us did).
Maybe the agent did advise him, but Watson decided he wants to sign - because of whatever the Texans promised him, nobody knows.
The NTC was probably the agent's advise in case something like this happens.
....
Regarding the money that the McNairs stand to lose, I had detailed it in a couple of posts up thread.
......
If you're in the school of doing what best for the team, trading him now is the solution.
After the draft, his value will go down because some teams would have committed to a certain plan. Also, those high picks that certain teams had will also be gone.
That will reduce the number of suitable buyers to very few, maybe even none.
....
The Bengals played hard ball, but had to trade Carson eventually for a first and a second.
They could have gotten more picks pre-draft the first time around.
Wilson's contract creates a different situation than Watsons.
IF the Seahawks trade Wilson , they will be on the hook for 40.6% of his total cost in 2021
35.1% for 2022 and 32.5% in 2023 because so much of Wilson's contract came in the form of a signing bonus - $65m of the total $70m in guarantees were paid up front.
Wilson's cap hit on a new team will be 19m , 24m & 27m for the next three years with $39m on the Seahawks 2021 cap.
The Texans are paying a total of ~17% of Watson's total money over a period of 5 years , essentially half of what the Seahawks would be paying Wilson in terms of percentage.
That equates to $13m in free salary cap space for Wilson's new team each year of the deal.
That's why I said the Texans would have to get additional picks.
In another word, they'd be buying those picks with the bonus money paid to Watson.
If NC doesn't know how to do that, the Texans get the wrong guy.
Yeah , the Dolphins give Watson what he wants - a ready built team and make some sense for the Texans as they can offer two picks this year but only 1 next.
Yes and no on the Zach Wilson part - the Jets can offer more / better picks in both years. 2 1's in each of the next 2 drafts - Miami can't match that.
And as far as what Watson wants , if I'm the GM I give no damn's at all.
IF I am to agree to trade him , the NTC is waived and I am free to negotiate with all teams or .... Your ass can sit. Them's your choices , take it or leave it.
I'm not making this trade to make both sides happy , only to better my roster.
I was pretty shocked he turned from defender to F that guy too ....
But this kinda goes both ways , A few people around here called my criticism of Watson "Hate" .... and I'm probably the last one here that still wants him remain the Texan's QB. Go figure ....
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
War makes strange bed fellows.
Dejaview
Wahoo Sabi
ballers good. We all have our favorite players we defend. I know this. From his posts he’s a hard working oil and gas man. Being from the same profession I know what he’s made of. Hard work, no bs.
Good post. I can count on one hand the number of posters that are more of a DW4 fan than a Texans fan. Similar to the number of DW4 haters, the number is greatly exaggerated. I never understood how having a good QB polarized this forum. With that said, after he's gone, I wonder who will be the next polarizing player or person?
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Texansballer74
The Marine
Gents I have always said I’m a Texan fan first. When the Oilers bounced, I didn’t jump on another teams bandwagon. As far as these players are concerned, I’m just like everyone else, a fan of the Superstar players on the team. When we acquired Watson I knew the kid would be special. I defended the unfair criticism towards him just like I would do towards every player. Now when it’s warranted I’ve agreed with the criticism and I criticized that player as well.
Right now I am not in agreement with Watson stance. I don’t believe anyone should sign a contract, take the signing bonus and then start crying foul play. Especially when he knew what he was getting himself into. I see if this was year 2 of that contract but 4 months after you signed it. Dude hasn’t done anything special to even warrant a mega contract like that. But the Texans wanted to keep him that badly. So get your money, all good.
So yeah it’s F Watson and his agent.
Right now I am not in agreement with Watson stance. I don’t believe anyone should sign a contract, take the signing bonus and then start crying foul play. Especially when he knew what he was getting himself into. I see if this was year 2 of that contract but 4 months after you signed it. Dude hasn’t done anything special to even warrant a mega contract like that. But the Texans wanted to keep him that badly. So get your money, all good.
So yeah it’s F Watson and his agent.
I'm with you on this post. My only difference and it might be due to my inquisitive nature, is that I would like to know from him what got him to not trust the organization and want out. I'm of the opinion that something happened AFTER O'Brien was fired. I base my opinion on seeing Watson crying after he signed the contract and then crying on the bench after a loss, I don't think he concocted some elaborate plan to screw the Texans. Something happened to sour the relationship and he provided hints about it in his year end press conference.
He needs to be a man and elaborate on that press conference and provide specific examples. I know it's the millennial or Gen Z way to post cryptic tweets and block/ignore people you are mad at, but this is business, you have to be professional. If he doesn't provide these examples and all we have to go on is some of the agenda driven speculation (baby mommas, IG girlfriend, daddy issues, minorities only) on this forum and well timed leaks to the media, I still will not entertain those posts/reports or have the patience for them. If he never discusses his issues, then I'm with you. F him and his agent. Until then, I'm just rubbernecking, eating popcorn and watching how all parties have mismanaged this situation.
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The contract will always be the killer on siding with Watson for me. I just cant do it.
ANYTHING so vitally important should have been in the contract...... thats why they exist.
IE: "This comtract is only binding IF you fire Easterby" "Let me pick my next boss".... ETC.
Yes, they may not go for it, but if its "promised to you" get it in writing before you sign.
At this point, anything Watson claims to be the end all be all of importance should have been contractual...... IF it was a "Handshake deal" and dont know by now why you dont rest on those.... watch Cobra Kai and take notes.
Its really a failing on DW's part... or his agent to ensure he gets what makes him truly happy to stay or he exits the right way.... NOT the Texans.
ANYTHING so vitally important should have been in the contract...... thats why they exist.
IE: "This comtract is only binding IF you fire Easterby" "Let me pick my next boss".... ETC.
Yes, they may not go for it, but if its "promised to you" get it in writing before you sign.
At this point, anything Watson claims to be the end all be all of importance should have been contractual...... IF it was a "Handshake deal" and dont know by now why you dont rest on those.... watch Cobra Kai and take notes.
Its really a failing on DW's part... or his agent to ensure he gets what makes him truly happy to stay or he exits the right way.... NOT the Texans.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
I agree I don’t think he had this grand master plan. I’ve laughed when people have suggested that about OB and later Easterby and the same applies to Watson.
Fair warning this might be a bit long.
Here is my personal theory I don’t think he can handle failure on he football field. You look at his history and he has been on a winning team every where he played at. Even when Clemson didn’t win the championship they were playing in it so it was still a successful season. It’s like KC, yeah you didn’t win but you still made it to the big game.
Even here every year he’s been able to finish the season Texans have been in the playoffs and division winners. Yeah they get knocked out early but objectively speaking they still have winning seasons. This was the first season where Watson played all games and they still couldn’t win. To make it worse he played his best season ever and it didn’t matter.
So off season rolls around and he’s already not happy but Cal makes an almost off hand comment about he’ll have input. Cal’s thinking it’s the same input many people had and Watson is thinking he will be neck deep in the process. Then Caserio is hired.
Enter the real villain, his agent. Dude wants to be the Don King of the NFL and Watson is his golden ticket. So he starts tell him “You’re better than this DeShaun, they are never going to get it together and you’re going to overtake Marino as the greatest QB to never win a ring. Let me handle this and we’ll get you out of there and on a championship team. He’ll because of your contract you can even pick the team and keep the money. They owe it to you for carrying this team.”
Add to that bitter former players like Hopkins and AJ telling him how much this team sucks and here we are.
Texansballer74
The Marine
And that’s my main point. He’s not coming out and refuting none of it. He’s playing a very immature game with these cryptic tweets. A mature player would’ve been squashed this. And I understand him being mad/upset but you did just signed that mega contract. Therefore, suck it up and do your freaking job.
There will be somebody. Most likely the QB.
Kinda like BOB was the villan and now Easterby is the villan.
When in truth most of this is on Cal and the way he runs his business.
Texansballer74
The Marine
On the cool momma McNair needs to sale the team but make sure it stays in Houston. Cal doesn’t know wtf he’s doing.
Good point on losing games. When he was on the bench crying after the Colts loss. My wife said, "I think the Texans broke Watson". At the time, I laughed at the comment. She might have been right.
Texansballer74
The Marine
It was a bad season no doubt.
PapaL
Loose Screw
You also aren’t a generational talent. Jesus Christ has the state of this country not shown you that rules apply differently when you’re rich? These aren’t people at your average job.
Watson is a corporation as much as the Texans are. He’s going to be paid by someone or he doesn’t play. His personal wealth is established. Unlike your average player, this kid ain’t dumb. He’s know a QB life’s span; much less one that plays his style. He’s playing the same game the organization plays when it cuts players but now everyone here is on their high horse about how the NFL does business.
And yeah there are financial penalties. Is the organization within its right? Yup. Now y’all suddenly think THIS organization is competent enough to manage a high game stakes?
It’s the blind leading the damn blind around here.
It's easy to simply blame the Texans based off of their past history of screwing everything up.
But really , what did they do to "Harm Watson".
Remember this craps storm started within minutes of them hiring Caserio.
Now weeks later , he's talking about "Loyalty" ... Loyal to who ?
PapaL
Loose Screw
I don't think some of you guys get it.
The culture that many of the players, including Foster and A.J. we're referring to is the warden running the show.
Texans WR DeAndre Hopkins felt 'like I'm a slave again' after late owner's comments in 2017
Houston Texans WR DeAndre Hopkins said he was "about to sit out" a 2017 game after controversial comments from the team's late owner Robert McNair.www.usatoday.com
AJ and Foster had come out and said that there were a lot of times when the voice of the players weren't being heard.
Too much lip service and no real beef.
That was why the players, like Watson, tweeted "things never change" (on Kirby).
The trust had been broken one too many times.
They don’t want to get it. They think he should be grateful to be as good as them; not better.
I wonder how much of this situation goes back to Momma Watson's call to Momma McNair because of the call Momma Watson got from the Devil Preacher about instagram hoes and impropriety
Yeah , the McNair's need to sell this team.
I think that the rich should be held to a standard of standing by their word..... what they do in reality is their business and yes, they generally are treated differently, but I personally dont excuse it.
Its the people treating the rich as untouchable and need not be held up to a standard of accountability which is why the Texans, this country and many other systems are allowed to decline.
Again, IF Deshaun wanted out the right way and gave a big middle finger to the McNairs and Easterby, he would have had my FULL support.
I dont respect a man that doesnt honor his word, rich or poor, so yes.... Watson gets the finger too.
IF YOU want a rich person to not be held accountable AS an individual, then so be it. A corporation being held accountable would be ideal, but the reality is, a corporation is many and much harder to punish the many for the one.
Watson the man or 'Watson the corporation"... remains one.
If you give him a pass, good on you I hope he sends you a thank you basket for your support I guess.
I have no idea. However, this is where we disagree. I don’t think this crap storm started within minutes of hiring Caserio.
We want to make the signing of the contract or the Caserio hiring as the only significant milestones. However, there is still the gap after BoB was fired and the year end press conference that provided ample opportunities for idiocy among all parties.
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Texansballer74
The Marine
I remember when JoJo was here. He use to throw some wild parties. Most of these guys in the sports arena and entertainment arena be wilding out.
Before Watson got drafted he was hanging out with a very popular porn star.
DW4's not a generational talent either
When it comes to finances usually Billionaires win out over Millionaires, see the latest CBA negotiations.
You dont believe in Caserio?
Again as Corrosion asked What Did They Do to Harm DW4?