Derek Stingley vs. Sauce Gardner

[zshawn10]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1518738470788907010

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1518732589556813826

 

[beerlover]

I for one have presented Stingley in light of facts and established history. No one should disagree that "availability" are a player's quality of most importance, bar non. Even looking past performance, Stingley has not had an impressive past history of availability..............a pattern that he unfortunately has not managed to evade into his NFL career.

Yes you did, accurately and pointedly which was much appreciated.

Have to say one rap against Gardner you had was lean build and unknown ability to physically hold up in the NFL. Soft tissue issues haven’t been a problem so far, think he did have to get evaluated for concussion during one game but came back in later. Somehow his body is naturally defensive, so as not to get into awkward leveraged positions yet ability to escape & deliver shots. If we all had a crystal ball to predict injuries that would be truly revolutionary.

We know, unfortunately how it played out for Stingley. Just curious if his lingering hamstring that forced him to be shutdown is related to his previous known injuries?

 

[Porky]

I don't know why some feel the need to dump on Stingley to make Sauce look better. They are both very good. You would think that a Texans fan would rally behind a Texans player even if he wasn't the fan's choice. I guess some are just so egotistical that they would rather attempt to make themselves look good than support their football team. What's the point? Is that not the definition of a troll?

Has nothing to do with anything you said. We (or at least I) am calling into question the decision-making of the Texans braintrust. They knew he was the much riskier pick, but apparently thought he had a higher upside. BTW, this is nothing new. We've had crappy decision-makers for the entire history of this franchise.

 

[Mr teX]

Some examples why I said Stingley was far from a shutdown corner in college.

Freshman vs Heisman trophy winner

 

[Lucky]

They shut Tunsil down to tank

Why wasn’t Tunsil shutdown this season. Was the tank still not on?

 

[JB]

I for one have presented Stingley in light of facts and established history. No one should disagree that "availability" are a player's quality of most importance, bar non. Even looking past performance, Stingley has not had an impressive past history of availability..............a pattern that he unfortunately has not managed to evade into his NFL career.

I don't recall you ever dumping on Stingley for his on the field play. Actually I seem to recall your pointing out the good job he has done

 

[JB]

Freshman vs Heisman trophy winner

This and stuff like this is what I was referring to

 

[SnakeEyes]

Lovie likes Stingley alright.

However, Nick Caserio had laid out the drafting procedures very clearly.

The scouting department garner the prospects.
Nick will then present a number of them to the coaches and ask for their opinions.

Then Caserio makes the final call.
He can override the coaches if he chooses to do so.

What we don't know is whether Stingley was also Caserio's top choice and whether he presented the injury situation clearly to the coaches (ie.; Lovie)

Also, we don't know whether Caserio clearly told Lovie which ones were the game film from Stingley's freshman year (which were quite good, but not great. Very good for a freshman, but nowhere near shut down good) and which one from more recent time (which were middling).

Also, the coaches are not familiar with the opponents that a player like Stingley faced in a given game.
Lovie has been out of the NFL for awhile; he can't be too familiar with all the college players that have been entering the league lately.
He's not quite uptodate.

If Doc said it was Lovie, then that is all we need to know. It means that Lovie was the one who wanted and requested that Stingley be picked and Nick had to select the choice. Likely, it was a Nick Caserio telling Lovie he felt it should be "X" player. Lovie then went with who he was wanting most. Cal would have been a deciding factor if needed. As this has been how the process has worked for quite some time. Doc knows more about the inner working of the team than likely anyone else here.

 

[SnakeEyes]

Yep, even though some still deny this.

This is another reason why Lovie should be sent packing.

And Doc confirmed it. If anyone is doubting what Doc knows...I don’t know what to say.

 

[Speedy]

Well, for those keeping score at home;

Sauce - 1 Pro Bowl
Stingley - 0 Pro Bowls

 

[badboy]

Well, for those keeping score at home;

Sauce - 1 Pro Bowl
Stingley - 0 Pro Bowls

Oh yeah? Well Stingley would have one two if not injured. Probably would have been rookie defensive player of NFL. My third eye told me so.

 

[beerlover]

Let’s just hope Texans get to together and as many of Caserios/Lovies picks make it and decide to resign here for their 2nd contracts. That in itself would be a nice change.

 

[ben.aires.smith]

Well, for those keeping score at home;

Sauce - 1 Pro Bowl
Stingley - 0 Pro Bowls

Green pick is looking about as bad as it can look right now also. Guards taken at #15 should be iron clad NFL ready picks. Green is literally one of the worst graded guards in all of football and below replacement level. Sauce is clearly better that Stingley and without the injury history. Not to say both can't get better/healthy and still become good pros. But right now, it sure looks like Caserio whiffed in the 1st round this year. Not very inspiring stuff, although he seemed to have got the Day 2 stuff right.

 

[JB]

Green is literally one of the worst graded guards in all of football and below replacement level.

Where were you the first half of the season before he got hurt (he should have been put on IR)? He was one of the top graded guards in the league, not just among rookies

 

[steelbtexan]

Why wasn’t Tunsil shutdown this season. Was the tank still not on?

He didn't get hurt this season.

There's a lot of revisionist history around these parts in regards to Tunsil.

Some here want him to fail, others ask if he wants to be here and that answer is yes, as long as Cal pays him.

 

[steelbtexan]

Green pick is looking about as bad as it can look right now also. Guards taken at #15 should be iron clad NFL ready picks. Green is literally one of the worst graded guards in all of football and below replacement level. Sauce is clearly better that Stingley and without the injury history. Not to say both can't get better/healthy and still become good pros. But right now, it sure looks like Caserio whiffed in the 1st round this year. Not very inspiring stuff, although he seemed to have got the Day 2 stuff right.

Injury was the cause for this in both the cases of Stingley/Green, not talent.

 

[ben.aires.smith]

Injury was the cause for this in both the cases of Stingley/Green, not talent.

Maybe. In Green's case, I'm not sold that his worst-in-league play is solely because of the injury. I think a lot of it is because he lacks strength and gets bull-rushed easily back into the QB. Many clips around showing how badly he's been brutalized. Shouldn't have been drafted where he was with weak showing at the combine... Probably a combination of both... Stingley should be good.

 

[SnakeEyes]

Green pick is looking about as bad as it can look right now also. Guards taken at #15 should be iron clad NFL ready picks. Green is literally one of the worst graded guards in all of football and below replacement level. Sauce is clearly better that Stingley and without the injury history. Not to say both can't get better/healthy and still become good pros. But right now, it sure looks like Caserio whiffed in the 1st round this year. Not very inspiring stuff, although he seemed to have got the Day 2 stuff right.

I'm thinking Green is going to be ok. My daughter goes to Atascocita High School, so I have watched him grow. He is still young and I think if he adds some strength and polishes his footwork he is going to be good. He has shown at times that he can dominate. He just hasn't done it yet for for back to back games.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

I don't recall you ever dumping on Stingley for his on the field play. Actually I seem to recall your pointing out the good job he has done

As good as he could following his Lisfranc injury, which has continued to affect his play. I have carefully followed his film focusing on his movement. Some use Lovie's cover scheme as an excuse for his low production. But if he were placed soley in a man coverage scheme, his Lisfranc history would no doubt would work more to uncover his movement deficit.

 

[Lucky]

He didn't get hurt this season.

There's a lot of revisionist history around these parts in regards to Tunsil.

Some here want him to fail, others ask if he wants to be here and that answer is yes, as long as Cal pays him.

No it’s your narrative that doesn’t hold up. The tank is the tank. Tunsil on the field wasn’t stopping that.

Nick didn’t want Tunsil on the field because he planned to trade him in the offseason. When Caserio found out the market for Tunsil was not a 1st round pick, he renegotiated the contract.

Without a long term deal making him the highest paid LT, Tunsil is walking after 2023. If that’s not happening, Nick needs to deal Tunsil while he has the chance.

 

[zshawn10]

Gardner ran away with this award, getting 18 votes.

“He’s been extremely consistent for a rookie,” an NFC executive said of Gardner. “Sauce has been targeted 59 times; he’s only given up three explosive plays. He’s just helped make that pass rush that much better.”

Gardner leads the NFL with 16 passes defended and leads all NFL defensive backs with an 89.6 coverage grade, per PFF. The runner-up was Seahawks cornerback Tariq Woolen (five votes), who was drafted No. 153 overall -- 149 spots after Gardner went to New York at No. 4. Woolen is tied with Eagles safety C.J. Gardner-Johnson for the league lead in interceptions (6) and leads the NFL with eight total takeaways, the most by a rookie since Marcus Peters in 2015. (The last rookie to lead the NFL in takeaways was Orlando Thomas in 1995.)

Lions defensive lineman Aidan Hutchinson and Texans defensive back Jalen Pitre received one vote each. One voter abstained.

NFL execs vote on awards: Who takes home MVP? Defensive Player of the Year? Coach of the Year?

Tom Pelissero surveys 26 high-ranking executives on MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, Coach of the Year and three other top individual honors. Who receives the most votes for each award?

www.nfl.com

 

[zshawn10]

Well, for those keeping score at home;

Sauce - 1 Pro Bowl
Stingley - 0 Pro Bowls

Meh CMC nor Tua made it either and Quentin Nelson made it lol; it's just name recognition at this point

 

[KoolAid Sipper]

Meh CMC nor Tua made it either and Quentin Nelson made it lol; it's just name recognition at this point

Yup, the name will carry some into the Flag Bowl, but Tua was going to have a hard time beating out Mahomes, Allen and Burrow even with the fan votes.

 

[thunderkyss]

Yes you did, accurately and pointedly which was much appreciated.

Have to say one rap against Gardner you had was lean build and unknown ability to physically hold up in the NFL. Soft tissue issues haven’t been a problem so far, think he did have to get evaluated for concussion during one game but came back in later. Somehow his body is naturally defensive, so as not to get into awkward leveraged positions yet ability to escape & deliver shots. If we all had a crystal ball to predict injuries that would be truly revolutionary.

We know, unfortunately how it played out for Stingley. Just curious if his lingering hamstring that forced him to be shutdown is related to his previous known injuries?

Remember when we drafted that WR who never got hurt in college? Will Fuller.

I understand wanting Gardner, or anybody other than Stingley, but this is Houston. Generational athletes come here & they’re eh…

 

[beerlover]

Remember when we drafted that WR who never got hurt in college? Will Fuller.

I understand wanting Gardner, or anybody other than Stingley, but this is Houston. Generational athletes come here & they’re eh…

Zach Wilson is worse than David Carr. Houston is not alone.

 

[Mr teX]

Zach Wilson is worse than David Carr. Houston is not alone.

And some of y’all have the nerve to poop on Mills for not throwing for 4000 yds and 30 TD’s as a 3rd rounder…this guy is out here looking like he shouldn’t have even been drafted…this bum was a TOP 2 pick…How do these NFL draft gurus get it so wrong?
…I’ll tell you how…by falling too in love with the traits thats how. By placing too much emphasis on qb being the most important position on the field. His tape to me wasn’t that impressive….never saw it with this dude.

 

[beerlover]

And some of y’all have the nerve to poop on Mills for not throwing for 4000 yds and 30 TD’s as a 3rd rounder…this guy is out here looking like he shouldn’t have even been drafted…this bum was a TOP 2 pick…How do these NFL draft gurus get it so wrong?
…I’ll tell you how…by falling too in love with the traits thats how. By placing too much emphasis on qb being the most important position on the field. His tape to me wasn’t that impressive….never saw it with this dude.

It’s not traits, it’s YouTube highlights. Ownership driven type. He was clearly phenomenal College QB but that doesn’t translate to NFL. I see no traits in Wilson that translate, nothing.

 

[ben.aires.smith]

And some of y’all have the nerve to poop on Mills for not throwing for 4000 yds and 30 TD’s as a 3rd rounder…this guy is out here looking like he shouldn’t have even been drafted…this bum was a TOP 2 pick…How do these NFL draft gurus get it so wrong?
…I’ll tell you how…by falling too in love with the traits thats how. By placing too much emphasis on qb being the most important position on the field. His tape to me wasn’t that impressive….never saw it with this dude.

Not much arm talent.

 

[ben.aires.smith]

And some of y’all have the nerve to poop on Mills for not throwing for 4000 yds and 30 TD’s as a 3rd rounder…this guy is out here looking like he shouldn’t have even been drafted…this bum was a TOP 2 pick…How do these NFL draft gurus get it so wrong?
…I’ll tell you how…by falling too in love with the traits thats how. By placing too much emphasis on qb being the most important position on the field. His tape to me wasn’t that impressive….never saw it with this dude.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Jets drafted another QB in the first round this year. The team is solid at all levels, but the QB is holding them back. Can't get any lower for Wilson than being benched for Streveler (lol!) and being outplayed with him. New low that I'm not sure he can recover from. They have to do something at that position.

 

[Mr teX]

It’s not traits, it’s YouTube highlights. Ownership driven type. He was clearly phenomenal College QB but that doesn’t translate to NFL. I see no traits in Wilson that translate, nothing.

his arm and throwing motion translate…nothing else though

 

[steelbtexan]

No it’s your narrative that doesn’t hold up. The tank is the tank. Tunsil on the field wasn’t stopping that.

Nick didn’t want Tunsil on the field because he planned to trade him in the offseason. When Caserio found out the market for Tunsil was not a 1st round pick, he renegotiated the contract.

Without a long term deal making him the highest paid LT, Tunsil is walking after 2023. If that’s not happening, Nick needs to deal Tunsil while he has the chance.

You know this how?

I hope Caserio pays Tunsil. The Texans need more players like Tunsil not less. Tunsil plays a premium position and those guys get paid.

Should have just drafted Tunsil by trading up after the gas mask video. He wasn't Texans Worthy back then but obviously he's Texans Worthy now.

This is the failure of the Texans org.

 

[badboy]

Why wasn’t Tunsil shutdown this season. Was the tank still not on?

Perhaps Tunsil insisted on chance for another Pro bowl as good chance he's extended. Good move if so and if he gets all pro even better for him. I wonder if he will be negotiating for himself again.

 

[SnakeEyes]

And Sauce for the year so far...not even a question who the better player is so far.

Year	Team	COMB	AST	Sack	INT	YDS
2022	NYJ	58	18	0.0	2	19
Career		58	18	0.0	2	19

 

[SnakeEyes]

Injury was the cause for this in both the cases of Stingley/Green, not talent.

Stingley...injury doesn’t help. But, I don't think he has the NFL elite talent. Got a feeling next year we will be saying "we still want a CB"

 

[badboy]

No it’s your narrative that doesn’t hold up. The tank is the tank. Tunsil on the field wasn’t stopping that.

Nick didn’t want Tunsil on the field because he planned to trade him in the offseason. When Caserio found out the market for Tunsil was not a 1st round pick, he renegotiated the contract.

Without a long term deal making him the highest paid LT, Tunsil is walking after 2023. If that’s not happening, Nick needs to deal Tunsil while he has the chance.

IIRC, Caserio started January 2021. Bill Obrien was GM in 2020 when Tunsil worked the extension for 21, 22 and 2023.

 

[badboy]

And some of y’all have the nerve to poop on Mills for not throwing for 4000 yds and 30 TD’s as a 3rd rounder…this guy is out here looking like he shouldn’t have even been drafted…this bum was a TOP 2 pick…How do these NFL draft gurus get it so wrong?
…I’ll tell you how…by falling too in love with the traits thats how. By placing too much emphasis on qb being the most important position on the field. His tape to me wasn’t that impressive….never saw it with this dude.

So our bum is a better bum than somebody else's bum? For some reason I don't feel any better.

 

[steelbtexan]

Stingley...injury doesn’t help. But, I don't think he has the NFL elite talent. Got a feeling next year we will be saying "we still want a CB"

Before he got hurt he was an elite talent.

 

[thunderkyss]

It’s not traits, it’s YouTube highlights. Ownership driven type. He was clearly phenomenal College QB but that doesn’t translate to NFL. I see no traits in Wilson that translate, nothing.

He looked like Carson Wentz in college. I don't know what the deal is, but I bet he'd be looking a lot better in San Fran, Miami, even Minnesota

 

[badboy]

5 years $115 puts Tunsil with Trent Williams with LT being significantly younger and probably an all pro this year.

 

[Mr teX]

So our bum is a better bum than somebody else's bum? For some reason I don't feel any better.

you should…fans here unrealistically expected Mills to be a savior when his draft slot should’ve cautioned against thinking that..unlike Wilson.

 

[badboy]

you should…fans here unrealistically expected Mills to be a savior when his draft slot should’ve cautioned against thinking that..unlike Wilson.

I do not recall seeing anyone thinking Davis Mills was a savior but most wanted him to be at least a middle of the NFL starter by now.

 

[76Texan]

If Doc said it was Lovie, then that is all we need to know. It means that Lovie was the one who wanted and requested that Stingley be picked and Nick had to select the choice. Likely, it was a Nick Caserio telling Lovie he felt it should be "X" player. Lovie then went with who he was wanting most. Cal would have been a deciding factor if needed. As this has been how the process has worked for quite some time. Doc knows more about the inner working of the team than likely anyone else here.

You confuse me a bit here.

I really like Doc CNND and corrosion; they do have some inside tracks, but it can't be on the high-level.

If I'm a GM, I wouldn't divulge my strategy to my best friend, maybe only if he's also on the team and can be trusted not to leak it out.

Instead, I would feed different information here and there.

My friends do not need to know the whole insights; it will be granted only in confidence.

A leak means you're out of the circle.

The only leaks that help me as a GM are the leaks I want to happen.

 

[76Texan]

Freshman vs Heisman trophy winner

You mean he won't see better in the NFL?

And no, his tapes didn't get better after his Freshman year.

Did he see even better receivers I don't know about?

 

[76Texan]

to be fair, those we’re elite WR’s with elite QB and Stingley was just a freshman. Don’t think we need to be dumping on him and picking his worst sample size.

Stingley is very smooth in transition, flips hips and adjusts to the receiver, looks for the ball and does attempt break-up. Couple of those reps he slipped and lost footing, looks worse than it is from speed mismatch.

I just want to see Stingley healthy, with solid reps under his belt and in system that lets him play press. Nothing like an awesome CB, rarer than elite WR (all best athletes generally strive to play offense and show off their skills).

What I'm saying is whether Stingly is worth the pick where he was drafted at.

Remember Patrick Peterson whom the Cards took at no. 5?

 

[76Texan]

to be fair, those we’re elite WR’s with elite QB and Stingley was just a freshman. Don’t think we need to be dumping on him and picking his worst sample size.

Stingley is very smooth in transition, flips hips and adjusts to the receiver, looks for the ball and does attempt break-up. Couple of those reps he slipped and lost footing, looks worse than it is from speed mismatch.

I just want to see Stingley healthy, with solid reps under his belt and in system that lets him play press. Nothing like an awesome CB, rarer than elite WR (all best athletes generally strive to play offense and show off their skills).

So you're saying that neither Caserio nor Lovie knew what they were doing?

I mean Lovie was quoted as he loving him some Stingley.

Not to play more in a scheme?

I'm totally confused here.

 

[Mr teX]

I do not recall seeing anyone thinking Davis Mills was a savior but most wanted him to be at least a middle of the NFL starter by now.

thinking he could even be that with whats been aroubd him the last few years….you may as well have wanted him to be a savior.

 

[SnakeEyes]

Before he got hurt he was an elite talent.

In college yes.

 

[SnakeEyes]

I do not recall seeing anyone thinking Davis Mills was a savior but most wanted him to be at least a middle of the NFL starter by now.

If he has good coaching, I feel he could be a Jake Delome(sp) type QB. The guy took the Panthers to a SB. Sadly, I don't think either HC and staff have been good or what a young QB needs. Have they ruined him? Probably not in only 2 years. However, if he was on a team with better coaches or somehow Cal allowed Nick Caserio to get a good HC and staff I think he is going to be good. Not amazing, but not a guy costing us games

 

[badboy]

If he has good coaching, I feel he could be a Jake Delome(sp) type QB. The guy took the Panthers to a SB. Sadly, I don't think either HC and staff have been good or what a young QB needs. Have they ruined him? Probably not in only 2 years. However, if he was on a team with better coaches or somehow Cal allowed Nick Caserio to get a good HC and staff I think he is going to be good. Not amazing, but not a guy costing us games

I thought like you did about meals for a while And I do Agree coaching was a huge problem. I just do not think he has much more than average backup capability.

 

[beerlover]

So you're saying that neither Caserio nor Lovie knew what they were doing?

I mean Lovie was quoted as he loving him some Stingley.

Not to play more in a scheme?

I'm totally confused here.

Aren’t we all