David Carr's on the right track...

[infantrycak]

I played football for 10 years at various levels until I had to have surgery on my knee and stop playing. See cak's post above if you have question's about team leaders. It is ridiculous to think that a QB is automatically a team leader because he plays QB...

Funny that we came up with two of the same QB's--Aikman and Montana.

 

[thunderkyss]

I'll take Thunderkyss' statements from his previous post, and take 'em one at a time:

Thunderkyss says: It's not about can Carr win or not. I believe he can, but to get us(me) to were we(I) want this team to be, he needs to be playing better than he has.

GP says: If Carr is talented enough to earn your confidence, then understand something: He, like most other players on our team, have always been talented enough to earn their pay (in one respect or another), but because of the system the players were forced to operate within...their talent could not overcome the fundamental flaws of the system that would never allow their talent to be utilized or maximized properly. I think all of us were able to see that our coaching staff had no idea, or no desire, to even try to stretch the field. Again, we were running plays (called by Capers and Co., by the way) that teenagers use in flag football by drawing the play in the dirt. It was so comical to see grown men, such as Carr and the entire offense, being forced to run dinks and dunks all day, and the other team's defense just laughing at us and stacking the line with almost all their players. So, I would say that Carr has drawn far more criticism than the other names you mention.

Quincy Carter, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Charlie Batch, etc....... etc...... all those guys are talented enough to win a SuperBowl...... but they don't have that extra something that makes some guys NFL starting QBs, and others backups.

Thunderkyss says: Carr ran into a lot of sacks....... Car hit the ground, before he got touched..... Carr ran out of bounds with the ball..... Carr never looks for the second option...... Carr threw that one in the dirt..

GP says: All of that was more or less a natural outcome of the inability of our coaching staff to give proper playcalling and/or to expose the defense's weaknesses. And the more heat Carr got, the MORE conservative Capers would get with the playcalling to try and protect him. It's getting to be a broken record, and you should be able to admit this one true factor of football: If you NEVER establish a downfield threat, or even a middle-of-the-field threat against a defense, the defense will creep up and just smash you in the mouth all day long...until you get tired of getting your chops busted. That's what happened to us. Teams were teeing off on the offensive linemen, and those guys were just shell-shocked by the middle of the first quarter of each game. Oh yeah, except the Cardinals game...which Carr was given control of by McNair and Reeves. We scored 24 points that half and won the game. Ding! Ding! Ding! One half of one game, and the team flourishes.

whatever the reason..... that part of my post was just saying that when we say that, don't pull out the guns.. it's just honest criticism(because it all happened) just like we criticise Frank Weary, Steve McKinney, Pat Buchannon, Marlon Greenwood, Travis Johnson, and Jabar Gaffney...... & when I say we, I mean you guys, as I've never said one bad word about any of them.
And every reason you just mentioned to support Carr, can be used to defend every guy on our team....

Thunderkyss says: Most of the Carr Critics here, are true Texans fans, and most of us(well me anyway) would rather see Carr get better, than just get rid of him altogether. .. now.

GP says: Hold on a second. Aren't you the same guy who thinks VY will be an instant hit? And although I can't pinpoint it, I'd like to also think you probably would have been pretty OK with us ditching Carr and drafting Vince, correct? If I'm wrong...I apologize.

Don't apologize...... that's me, you got me pegged. the last word you quoted(now) means form where we are today. If this was prior to our decision to draft Mario, I'd drop David Carr in a heartbeat. we owed him nothing(monetarily) and I'd start with Vince.

But the thing I like to point out is that a fair share of people who are anti-Carr are indeed very much pro-Young. So in that sense, a pro-Vince fan has a biiiiiiiiiiiig conflict inside himself in terms of having to cheer Carr while biting the inside of his cheek while doing it. I don't know, I am having a hard time truly believing that an anti-Carr fan, although he might be a Texans fan, can fully enjoy any success that Carr might have this season. And I have an easier time envisioning an anti-Carr fan having a big smile on his face if he fails and gets yanked from the field.

Anyways, I think I gotta' run. Good discussion, though.

well, I can se your point..... and though I do feel we have a team capable of going 13-3(which is based on me hoping Carr plays alot better than he has) Vince being a success has nothing to do with the Texans or David Carr. I'll gloat when Vince goes to the ProBowl, I'll gloat when the guys on sportsCenter go ga-ga over Vince carrying his weak team to victory. & I'll gloat when Vince wins 4 games this year...... really that's more of an if....

I don't care to ever say hah, the Texans should have taken Vince..... if we had drafted Reggie, then I'd be hoping we failed miserably....

But I feel Reggie, Vince, & Mario were all #1 overall type picks. We needed Mario more than the other two, and Vince more than Reggie(even if DD has to get one leg amputated).

While I understand your point, you have a couple of less than stellar examples in there. Multiple folks have pointed to the leaders of the Cowboys O as Irvin, Smith and Aikman in that order. There have also been comments over the years about Montana not being a leader in any regard other than as a good player--the same has been said of Peyton. The QB will always be the focus of the fans for leadership, but they aren't always the actual primary leader of the O.

no........ not exactly.

Irvin was the teams spiritual leader..... kinda like the head cheerleader. Emmitt was like their mascott, the epitome of what that blue collar team was. Troy was their leader. He was the guy they all would have died for. They spilled blood on that field for him. They were the bus, he was the driver.

Same holds for Manning, and Montana.... those guys are referred to as field generals.....

 

[bayoudreamn]

So when was the last time Randy Moss or T.O. Been to the ProBowl??

In his first three years, T.O. had 2553 yards..... his best season(of those first three years, 1097 yards, 67 catches, in 16 games.)

Randy Moss..... is a freak, and you just can't compare anyone to him.

Marvin Harrison... 2,476 yards his firt three years.... his best year, he had 73 catches, in 16 games.

Andre Johnson.... 2806 yards in his first three years... 79 catches his best year.

Everything about AJ says he is a player at that level.... he compares well with those guys, and he's only getting better.

Same with DD...... you can't find a scrub that has put up numbers equal to DDs for 4 years running....... DD is the real thing.

You have to go back to the 70s to find a winning QB with numbers like Carr's his first 4 years. Aaron Brooks' looks like a monster...... a proBowler, and a shoe in for the Hall of Fame compared to David Carr stat wise.

Quarterback stats are more dependent on the team than running back stats and to a lesser degree, wr stats. I wouldn't look at DCs stats to determine if he has winning team stats because he hasn't played on a winning teams since he's been in the NFL. If you want to look at his stats and compare him to the production of other quaterbacks, compare him to quarterbacks with the same w/L record.

 

[bayoudreamn]

Of the 16, 9 have had 2 or more seasons with over 1000 yards rushing, and of the 18, 15 have had more than 2 seasons with over 1000 yards rushing.

Why are you supplying facts for him. He's making arguments without support and he attacks your data and then asks you to disprove his opinion. Which you did quite capably. Anyone reading this thread can see that, so there's no point in even answering anymore.

 

[texan279]

Why are you supplying facts for him. He's making arguments without support and he attacks your data and then asks you to disprove his opinion. Which you did quite capably. Anyone reading this thread can see that, so there's no point in even answering anymore.

Yeah. I am pretty much through with it...

 

[texan279]

Irvin was the teams spiritual leader..... kinda like the head cheerleader. Emmitt was like their mascott, the epitome of what that blue collar team was. Troy was their leader. He was the guy they all would have died for. They spilled blood on that field for him. They were the bus, he was the driver.

Same holds for Manning, and Montana.... those guys are referred to as field generals.....

I would love to know how you know all of this, or is this just your opinion?

 

[bayoudreamn]

I think when you watch Moulds this year you will see a lot of AJ's deficiencies unless AJ is finally learning. Does AJ have a lot of talent, most certainly. Is he using that talent, NO. We got rid of the core of our wide receiver core and replaced it with new players. There is a reason and you will see it this season. Basically Carr really had no one to throw to who knew how to get open. Teams allowed AJ and DD to have the short ones, because that wasn't going to beat them. This year it will be very different. We have an excellent, not average, receiver core across the line. This year we have WR's and TE's that can spell trouble for any team we play.

We've also made changes to the offense line that appear to be upgrades and everyone hopes they turn out to be exactly that. We also changed the coaching staff with responsibility for the line and the change there also appears to be an upgrade. It won't take long to see if the changes provide Carr with opportunities he hasn't had before. If those opportunities develop and Carr still struggles I'm sure his effectiveness will be evaluated. Until then we can wait and see....it's only pre-July

Good comments Ibar Harry.....I enjoy reading your mind.

 

[Hulk75]

Quincy Carter, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Charlie Batch, etc....... etc...... all those guys are talented enough to win a SuperBowl...... but they don't have that extra something that makes some guys NFL starting QBs, and others backups.

Yea like help on Offense.
Give me a break, did you just through Charlie Batch in there as maybe a Superbowl QB? I think I will laugh my self into a coma.
And one of them Lord forbid had Chris Palmer as his mentor.

 

[TexanFan881]

Give me a break, did you just through Charlie Batch in there as maybe a Superbowl QB? I think I will laugh my self into a coma.

And Tim Couch. He couldn't even make the team for the Packers last year.

 

[bayoudreamn]

I guess my philosophy on this topic is that no single player on our team played "well" in a 2-14 season. It was a complete meltdown of epic proportions.

Carr did NOT play well, but he was joined by about 50 other players around him who also did not play well. And the root cause, IMO, was coaching. Seasons prior to 2005 saw "good" play from most all Texans players, and the record reflects it. But I would say, with the exception of a few minor bursts of excitement via Jerome Mathis, that nobody played well at all.

In that sense, my friend, we all need to be honest enough to admit it.

And thus my entire point in this is that all of it is in the past. We got the flu shot and it hurt...but now we have a much better chance against the flu than I think we've ever had. Just the idea of not seeing Bradford and Gaffney atop the WR depth chart, or on the chart at all, is enough to get me excited. good luck to 'em, but I think they stayed on our team at least one season too long. And that was the kind of homerish, "he's my guy" type of decision making that Capers and crew constantly tripped over. There was ZERO competition for depth chart battles. Everybody was basically unionized.

But............some people obviously want to lump in the franchise QB with the dearly departed coaching staff. And that's where I just scratch my head in utter confusion. Yes, he did not play "well," but again I say: The entire team did not play well...heck, the 2004 season-ending debacle at home against Cleveland SHOULD have been the tipping point for Bob McNair, but he gave the coaching staff one more year to prove that it was just a fluke.

Admitting that Carr did not play well in 2005 is not admitting that he "can't" play. He was just as much a victim of circumstance as the other players on our team were. He's gonna' do better this year: Bank on it.

Ok. I get it. The reason we lost so many games last year, is because Capers and Casserly do not play well together.

 

[bayoudreamn]

Well I am usually wrong. I thought Babin and Pbuc would be studs, I thought our O-line just needed time to gel, I thought no other line-backer in the world could be worse than Forman, I thought losing Foley was a whopedy-do, I thought Glenn was old and had lost a step, I thought Coleman was going to be a stud safety, I thought Capers would get us to a superbowl, I thought casserly could build a championship football team, I thought we would get the next superbowl, I thought there was no way in the world we would lose to Detroit and san diego, I thought we would take Reggie Bush.

I am wrong alot.

LOL.....you're right.

 

[bayoudreamn]

we're going on 5 years now...... maybe our QB is ready.......

I also see Vince starting and being more productive than Matt a lot sooner. Matt gets no playing time, if the Cardinals are winning. & that team is built to win. So if he doesn't beat out Warner in the Preseason, it may be next year before he straps on his helmet.

Tennessee aren't expect a winning season in '06....... they've got nothing to lose. If Vince can prove that he's ready...... which all reports indicate that he is doing...... he might start early in '06.

....and he might bust....and then he can enjoy an offseason of hate mail from fans on his team MB too.

 

[bayoudreamn]

Maybe the fact that David Carr got a 3 year $24 million option picked up while he hasn't shown that he can be a player that earns an average of $8 mill. a year. AJ, on the other hand, went to the Pro Bowl in 04 and was hurt in 05.

I'm still trying to figure out how AJ got hurt. He's a big guy and he didn't get sacked 200+ times

 

[bayoudreamn]

I think they could've gone with a lesser option on Carr...

Can you back that up?

 

[TwinSisters]

On the subject of Carr being the team leader:

I have not seen anything about Carr saying he is the team leader or really recall any of the players saying he leads them. This of course doesn't mean anything other then that. I might of ignored it on assumption that he is though. I think McKinney said something about Carr being the leader back in 2002 or 2003.

On the subject of Montana:
Montana was the leader of his crews. He doesn't go so far as saying he is the leader of the team, but he states it plainly in his Art and Magic of Quarterbacking book, Chapter 5: Taking Charge. He leads the offense. He also points out Aikman as the leader of the Cowboys. Walsh says the same thing ( on Montana ).

On Leadership from Cliff Branch

From QAK HQ

Cliff Branch: Well, the 1980 season was a very interesting year because we traded Kenny Stabler for Dan Pastorini and picked up a lot of key players...Bobby Chandler and Burgess Owens from the Jets. So it was a very interesting year, first we were changing our leadership roles with bringing in Dan Pastorini and Jim Plunkett wanted me to back up and battle for that position and when Pastorini got hurt we were 2-3 and then when Plunkett took over we came together as a group and he gave us great leadership. We went into the playoffs as a Wild Card team, and we were the first Wild Card team to win a Super Bowl. The 1980 team was a very, very good team because of the fact of bringing in a lot of guys from trades and trading our leadership roles from Kenny Stabler to Pastorini and Jim Plunkett.

Stabler and Pastorini are great leaders. For Pastorini that was his greatest strength ( besides his toughness ). The point here is that leadership is pretty relative to your squad and that QBs 'are' the leaders ( way more often then not ).

 

[texan279]

On the subject of Carr being the team leader:

I have not seen anything about Carr saying he is the team leader or really recall any of the players saying he leads them. This of course doesn't mean anything other then that. I might of ignored it on assumption that he is though. I think McKinney said something about Carr being the leader back in 2002 or 2003.

On the subject of Montana:
Montana was the leader of his crews. He doesn't go so far as saying he is the leader of the team, but he states it plainly in his Art and Magic of Quarterbacking book, Chapter 5: Taking Charge. He leads the offense. He also points out Aikman as the leader of the Cowboys. Walsh says the same thing ( on Montana ).

On Leadership from Cliff Branch

From QAK HQ


Stabler and Pastorini are great leaders. For Pastorini that was his greatest strength ( besides his toughness ). The point here is that leadership is pretty relative to your squad and that QBs 'are' the leaders ( way more often then not ).

I am not saying that QB's cannot be leaders, I just don't think it is a rule or standard for every QB to be the leader for their team. For example, I would think Ray Lewis would be more of a leader for the Ravens than than Kyle Boller, and look at what Favre and Harrington did to their respective teams. They may have been a leader for their teams at one time, but they sure have not acted like leaders lately for their teams. And as far as Carr goes, from what I saw last season, he was the most emotional/vocal player on the field except for maybe Gary Walker, Peek, or a few others.

 

[TwinSisters]

I am not saying that QB's cannot be leaders, I just don't think it is a rule or standard for every QB to be the leader for their team.

Yeah I feel like I need to make something pretty clear, or air out some of the fog. I am not arguing as much as just tossing different things into the mix. I am really just passing on things that I have seen other people say like Montana.

The normal way it has been since QBs starting throwing the ball, is that the QB, in the very least, is the offensive leader. I imagine you can tell who the leaders are by who gets to go out for the coin toss.

Ben did not lead Steelers. McNair is not going to lead the Ravens. ( or I should say McNair is not going to start out leading the Ravens... it could change, but I wonder )
----

My personal opinion is that the Head Coach is the leader of the team. More so in the now, then in the past. In the past coaches were coaches, players played. That has changed quite a bit since Paul Brown showed up.

On Carr:
If someone came to me today with a $750,000 check and said it's yours if you can tell me what is wrong with the Texans, I would have to turn it down. I don't know.

BUT that still isn't going to deter me from trying to figure it out... I guess because it entertains me. If it was that easy the game would be boring like golf.

 

[HJam72]

On Carr:
If someone came to me today with a $750,000 check and said it's yours if you can tell me what is wrong with the Texans, I would have to turn it down. I don't know.

I would take that check and tell them that the answer is:

they haven't played a season with their new head coach yet. The coaching staff was the problem.

 

[thunderkyss]

Why are you supplying facts for him. He's making arguments without support and he attacks your data and then asks you to disprove his opinion. Which you did quite capably. Anyone reading this thread can see that, so there's no point in even answering anymore.

which argument am I not supporting?? DD....... I'm saying DD is the real thing. That running for 1000 yards is a big deal, and doing it multiple years in a row is a bigger deal.... He said 16 players did it in 2005(I think) and 9 of those players did it the year before...... for that to disprove my point, then those players would have to be scrubs...... at least more than half of them. But they aren't. They are the best in the league, big time franchise type running backs. You show me Antowain Smith, or Bennett, or Thomas Jones running for 1000 yards in multiple seasons, or back to back seasons, then I'll agree it's no big deal. But we're talking about Franchise running backs, "superstars" that do it year in & year out... and only superstars.... I haven't compiled the list of the 9 backs or the 15 that repeated the feat in back to back years, 2004/2005.... maybe I should. But the only way he can move forward on his point is to make that list, and show where 2nd class runningbacks are running amok on the NFL with 1000 yard years back to back.

& maybe I should admit that 1000 yards isn't such a big deal. Especially, if the RB has only done it once, and has the help of a 3500 yard passing game... DD has done it twice, once with a 3500 yard passing offense, and once without.

Look at it this way: 2003: 2005:
1. Jamal Lewis BAL 2066 906
2. Ahman Green GB 1883 255
3. LaDainian Tomlinson SD 1645 1462
4. Deuce McAllister NO 1641 335
5. Clinton Portis DEN 1591 1516
6. Fred Taylor JAC 1572 787
7. Stephen Davis CAR 1444 549
8. Shaun Alexander SEA 1435 1880
9. Priest Holmes KC 1420 451
10.Ricky Williams MIA 1372 743
11.Travis Henry BUF 1356 335
12.Curtis Martin NYJ 1308 735
13.Edgerrin James IND 1259 1506
14.Tiki Barber NYG 1216 1860
15.Eddie George TEN 1031
16.Domanick Davis HOU 1031 976
17.Anthony Thomas CHI 1024 92
18.Kevan Barlow SF 1024 581

Ok..... so now we have.

Ladanian Tomlinson, Clinton Portis, Shaun Alexander, Edgerrin James, Tiki Barber

That's it.... that's 5 guys that ran for 1000 yards in 2003, 2004, and 2005. Domanick Davis ran for 1000 yards in 2003, as a rookie coming off the bench. he ran for 1000 yards in 2004, and missed it in 2005 by 24 yards.

I don't know how many people will run for over 1000 yards in 2006, but I'm willing to bet money, that DD will be one of them.

 

[TEXANRED]

Tkyss!!!!!!! See what you've done!

I hope you are proud of yourself.

 

[thunderkyss]

I would love to know how you know all of this, or is this just your opinion?

the same way infantrycak knows what he posted..... I remember watching interviews by various team mates saying exactly what I stated. & I know Troy was referred to as the "Field General" multiple times by the T.V. commentators/sports analasysts....... I want to say they coined the phrase talking about Troy.

Yea like help on Offense.
Give me a break, did you just through Charlie Batch in there as maybe a Superbowl QB? I think I will laugh my self into a coma.
And one of them Lord forbid had Chris Palmer as his mentor.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Charlie Batch help his team get to the SuperBowl?? If I'm not mistaken, he also has a SuperBowl Ring.

And Tim Couch. He couldn't even make the team for the Packers last year.

So now you're saying Tim Couch has no talent??

9800 yards his first 4 years, with only 51 starts. 57 TDs, 61 Ints... avg QB rating 75.1. 60.27 avg completion pct.

Compared to the guy we all know is oozing with talent....

10624 yards his first 4 years in 60 starts.... 48 TDs, 53 Ints... avg QB rating...73.7....... 57.8 avg completion pct.....

 

[thunderkyss]

....and he might bust....and then he can enjoy an offseason of hate mail from fans on his team MB too.

what are you saying??

that Carr is a bust??

or that this is hate mail??

I'm just criticizing the guy, I don't think it's gone overboard or anything. If 279 wants to start an AJ thread, I'll get in on that one too.

 

[TwinSisters]

So now you're saying Tim Couch has no talent??

9800 yards his first 4 years, with only 51 starts. 57 TDs, 61 Ints... avg QB rating 75.1. 60.27 avg completion pct.

Compared to the guy we all know is oozing with talent....

10624 yards his first 4 years in 60 starts.... 48 TDs, 53 Ints... avg QB rating...73.7....... 57.8 avg completion pct.....

Yeah but did Tim Couch have a better college career then Dave?



He actually has very similiar circumstances to the Texans and Carr. The only big difference I think is that Couch has shoulder damage. Another major difference is that Couch didn't have the support of the community like Carr has. The Browns were expecting "the Browns" to be back sooner then anyone here expected the Texans to be up and flying.

 

[texan279]

the same way infantrycak knows what he posted..... I remember watching interviews by various team mates saying exactly what I stated. & I know Troy was referred to as the "Field General" multiple times by the T.V. commentators/sports analasysts....... I want to say they coined the phrase talking about Troy.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Charlie Batch help his team get to the SuperBowl?? If I'm not mistaken, he also has a SuperBowl Ring.



So now you're saying Tim Couch has no talent??

9800 yards his first 4 years, with only 51 starts. 57 TDs, 61 Ints... avg QB rating 75.1. 60.27 avg completion pct.

Compared to the guy we all know is oozing with talent....

10624 yards his first 4 years in 60 starts.... 48 TDs, 53 Ints... avg QB rating...73.7....... 57.8 avg completion pct.....

Commentators and analysts, I'd rather hear it from his teammates or coaches myself.

 

[infantrycak]

He actually has very similiar circumstances to the Texans and Carr. The only big difference I think is that Couch has shoulder damage. Another major difference is that Couch didn't have the support of the community like Carr has. The Browns were expecting "the Browns" to be back sooner then anyone here expected the Texans to be up and flying.

The other big difference is Couch was a flat line--he started mid 70's QB rating and ended mid 70's QB rating. Until last year steady progress was being made with Carr going 62.8, 69.5, 83.5. Folks are more patient when they see progress. No progress last year, in fact regression, and the QB will face the wrath of the fans.

 

[TwinSisters]

The other big difference is Couch was a flat line--he started mid 70's QB rating and ended mid 70's QB rating. Until last year steady progress was being made with Carr going 62.8, 69.5, 83.5. Folks are more patient when they see progress. No progress last year, in fact regression, and the QB will face the wrath of the fans.

O yeah for sure. I agree.

 

[texan279]

9800 yards his first 4 years, with only 51 starts. 57 TDs, 61 Ints... avg QB rating 75.1. 60.27 avg completion pct.

Compared to the guy we all know is oozing with talent....

10624 yards his first 4 years in 60 starts.... 48 TDs, 53 Ints... avg QB rating...73.7....... 57.8 avg completion pct.....

Why didn't you post Couch's career stats? For his career his completion percentage was 59.8 and he threw 67 INT's, that is 14 more than Carr has thrown and Couch only played in 2 more games.

 

[real]

Why didn't you post Couch's career stats? For his career his completion percentage was 59.8 and he threw 67 INT's, that is 14 more than Carr has thrown and Couch only played in 2 more games.

Carr's Stats aren't outrageously far off from Couch's....If he was a bust Carr isn't too far off...

 

[infantrycak]

the same way infantrycak knows what he posted..... I remember watching interviews by various team mates saying exactly what I stated. & I know Troy was referred to as the "Field General" multiple times by the T.V. commentators/sports analasysts....... I want to say they coined the phrase talking about Troy.

Could be, but I doubt it. I watched Cowboys football until the Texans came to town. Did you ever watch Cowboy games in that era? Irvin and Smith stormed the sidelines of that team motivating everyone. Aikman spent much more time talking to the OC and HC. Aikman was a great QB, but the field general stuff comes (a) from folks generally tendency to credit the QB with the team's success (and the obvious fact that the QB gives the play and therefore inherently gives directions ) and more importantly (b) because of his smart, efficient play--as a contrast to the flashy play of Elway, Favre and Marino--i.e. he wasn't a gambler taking the team on his shoulders, he was efficiently taking advantage of the team's assets. In any event, the point wasn't that he wasn't A leader, but that he was not the 1st one the team or even the O looked to. I have watched the sidelines for four years for anyone on either side of the ball stalking the sidelines like Irvin and Smith did--haven't seen it yet.

 

[thunderkyss]

Why didn't you post Couch's career stats? For his career his completion percentage was 59.8 and he threw 67 INT's, that is 14 more than Carr has thrown and Couch only played in 2 more games.

Do you think that makes Couch look worse compared to Carr?? or not as Good??

I just used his 4 year stats, to keep it on even ground with Carr's 4 year stats... The Browns had enough after 4, and decided to let Couch go. I didn't even realize that they both had the same number of career starts.. Tim in 5 years, to Carr's 4 years.

for his Career, Carr has thrown 48 touchdowns, and 53 ints..... that's 1.10 ints/touchdown

for his career, couch has thrown 64 touchdowns, and 67 ints..... that's 1.04

and 59.8 is still better than 57.8

 

[thunderkyss]

Could be, but I doubt it. I watched Cowboys football until the Texans came to town. Did you ever watch Cowboy games in that era? Irvin and Smith stormed the sidelines of that team motivating everyone. Aikman spent much more time talking to the OC and HC. Aikman was a great QB, but the field general stuff comes (a) from folks generally tendency to credit the QB with the team's success (and the obvious fact that the QB gives the play and therefore inherently gives directions ) and more importantly (b) because of his smart, efficient play--as a contrast to the flashy play of Elway, Favre and Marino--i.e. he wasn't a gambler taking the team on his shoulders, he was efficiently taking advantage of the team's assets. In any event, the point wasn't that he wasn't A leader, but that he was not the 1st one the team or even the O looked to. I have watched the sidelines for four years for anyone on either side of the ball stalking the sidelines like Irvin and Smith did--haven't seen it yet.

Ok, motivating from the sideline.......... around here, we call that cheerleading.

I'm talking about commanding games, directing plays, executing your job to the best of your ability, and comanding that same effort from the other 10 guys on the field. I'm talking about patting the guy on the but when he does good, and getting in his face when he screws up. I'm talking about being a coach on the field.

 

[texan279]

which argument am I not supporting?? DD....... I'm saying DD is the real thing. That running for 1000 yards is a big deal, and doing it multiple years in a row is a bigger deal.... He said 16 players did it in 2005(I think) and 9 of those players did it the year before...... for that to disprove my point, then those players would have to be scrubs...... at least more than half of them. But they aren't. They are the best in the league, big time franchise type running backs. You show me Antowain Smith, or Bennett, or Thomas Jones running for 1000 yards in multiple seasons, or back to back seasons, then I'll agree it's no big deal. But we're talking about Franchise running backs, "superstars" that do it year in & year out... and only superstars.... I haven't compiled the list of the 9 backs or the 15 that repeated the feat in back to back years, 2004/2005.... maybe I should. But the only way he can move forward on his point is to make that list, and show where 2nd class runningbacks are running amok on the NFL with 1000 yard years back to back.

& maybe I should admit that 1000 yards isn't such a big deal. Especially, if the RB has only done it once, and has the help of a 3500 yard passing game... DD has done it twice, once with a 3500 yard passing offense, and once without.

Look at it this way: 2003: 2005:
1. Jamal Lewis BAL 2066 906
2. Ahman Green GB 1883 255
3. LaDainian Tomlinson SD 1645 1462
4. Deuce McAllister NO 1641 335
5. Clinton Portis DEN 1591 1516
6. Fred Taylor JAC 1572 787
7. Stephen Davis CAR 1444 549
8. Shaun Alexander SEA 1435 1880
9. Priest Holmes KC 1420 451
10.Ricky Williams MIA 1372 743
11.Travis Henry BUF 1356 335
12.Curtis Martin NYJ 1308 735
13.Edgerrin James IND 1259 1506
14.Tiki Barber NYG 1216 1860
15.Eddie George TEN 1031
16.Domanick Davis HOU 1031 976
17.Anthony Thomas CHI 1024 92
18.Kevan Barlow SF 1024 581

Ok..... so now we have.

Ladanian Tomlinson, Clinton Portis, Shaun Alexander, Edgerrin James, Tiki Barber

That's it.... that's 5 guys that ran for 1000 yards in 2003, 2004, and 2005. Domanick Davis ran for 1000 yards in 2003, as a rookie coming off the bench. he ran for 1000 yards in 2004, and missed it in 2005 by 24 yards.

I don't know how many people will run for over 1000 yards in 2006, but I'm willing to bet money, that DD will be one of them.

I tell you how many RB's rush for over 1000 yards in 2004 and 2005 and you ask me this "of the 16, and the 18, how many have done it multiple years??"

And I give you this

Of the 16, 9 have had 2 or more seasons with over 1000 yards rushing, and of the 18, 15 have had more than 2 seasons with over 1000 yards rushing.

Now you switch from back to back 1000 yards seasons to multiple 1000 yard rushing seasons, which DD hasn't even done, and wanting to know out of those RB's which ones were "scrubs" Everytime you ask for something I give it and you come back and twist everything around.

Rudi Johnson rushed for more than 1400 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Rueben Droughns rushed for more than 1200 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Willis McGahee rushed for more than 1100 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Warrick Dunn rushed for more than 1100 yards in 2004 and 2005.

These are guys I consider good, not great RB's...And you keep talking about the help of a passing game, the season Jamal Lewis rushed for over 2000 yards the Ravens had the worst passing offense in the NFL, when Curtis Martin rushed for over 1600 yards last season, the Jet's passing offense was ranked 27th in the NFL.

 

[Vinny]

Alex Smith was the #1 overall pick in 2005, is he the "leader" of the 49'ers? How about Eli Manning, is he the "leader" of the Giants? Is Carson Palmer the "leader" of the Bengals? Tim Couch the lader of the Browns, oh wait he doesn't play there anymore. Andre Johnson has not played to the level in which he is paid either 3 seasons into his career, but no one says a word, because he made one pro bowl during one mediocre season he had.

Smith was a rookie...Manning in his 3rd year is expected to be a leader. Palmer? Certainly. Tim Couch wasn't and he isn't in the league. Football is a fairly unique sport as one man touches the ball on every play...makes all the decisions on where to go with the ball once the play is in his hands. If you do not have a leader at QB you better not be paying him more than anyone else.....um, like we do.

AJ went to a pro bowl because his peers voted him in. No way anyone has considered Carr a pro bowler...ever. If you can't see the difference in Carr and Johnson when it comes to who has played better at his position to date, its really not worth arguing with you since I'd have to consider you clueless.

 

[Vinny]

While I understand your point, you have a couple of less than stellar examples in there. Multiple folks have pointed to the leaders of the Cowboys O as Irvin, Smith and Aikman in that order. There have also been comments over the years about Montana not being a leader in any regard other than as a good player--the same has been said of Peyton. The QB will always be the focus of the fans for leadership, but they aren't always the actual primary leader of the O.

I saw Aikman as a leader...Smith and Irvin as producers. You like to compare Carr to Aikman but other than them both being good looking men and early picks...I don't see how these guys compare since Carr is a veteran with over 60 NFL starts now (more than Leftwich, Brees and Bulger) and not some rookie working off spec. Plain and simple his history is not stacking up like Aikman's did.

 

[thunderkyss]

I tell you how many RB's rush for over 1000 yards in 2004 and 2005 and you ask me this "of the 16, and the 18, how many have done it multiple years??"

First, I've never said that getting 1000 yards was a big deal...... I mean it is, but the thing about DD, is that he's done it for multiple years........ more than one equates to multiple years. So just saying 32 running backs in 2005 ran for 1000 yards doesn't hurt my argument......

And I give you this

Of the 16, 9 have had 2 or more seasons with over 1000 yards rushing, and of the 18, 15 have had more than 2 seasons with over 1000 yards rushing.

I'm not ignoring what you're writing..... I took that statement, and asked you which ones were scrubs...... or good but not great....... You mentioned McGahee, which I don't agree with, and someone else....... I thought the argument ended there.

Now you switch from back to back 1000 yards seasons to multiple 1000 yard rushing seasons, which DD hasn't even done, and wanting to know out of those RB's which ones were "scrubs" Everytime you ask for something I give it and you come back and twist everything around.

yeah, I'm getting spun around by my dizziyng intellect.....

Rudi Johnson rushed for more than 1400 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Rueben Droughns rushed for more than 1200 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Willis McGahee rushed for more than 1100 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Warrick Dunn rushed for more than 1100 yards in 2004 and 2005.

These are guys I consider good, not great RB's...

OK, this is what I was getting at...... these guys are good, but not great.... I could live with that..... you put DD in this category....... I could live with that...

if you are saying these guys aren't special, then I can't understand what you are talking about.

And you keep talking about the help of a passing game, the season Jamal Lewis rushed for over 2000 yards the Ravens had the worst passing offense in the NFL, when Curtis Martin rushed for over 1600 yards last season, the Jet's passing offense was ranked 27th in the NFL.

you and I both agree that Jamal Lewis and Curtis Martin are great backs.... DD being able to accomplish something similar to those two have got to mean something. Being that they went on to win the SuperBowl, I'd have to imagine that team was better than ours also...... even though it was a defensive minded team.... Same with Curtis Martin....... he's good..... we expect great backs to produce on bad teams..... Curtis got 16, my man got 1000...

I know you hate digging up all these facts for me and proving me wrong. but you're getting so good at it........... one more.

Who was the last running back to run for 1000 yards(or darn near) on a 2-14 team?? Did Barry Sanders ever do it??

or, are you saying the rest of the team doesn't matter..... great RBs will get 1400 yards regardless........

I know I'm throwing in more questions into the pot..... but i bet Curtis Martin's & Jamal Lewis first three years are very comparable to DDs....... if DDs isn't better.....

I'll be back.....

 

[texan279]

Smith was a rookie...Manning in his 3rd year is expected to be a leader. Palmer? Certainly. Tim Couch wasn't and he isn't in the league.

AJ went to a pro bowl because his peers voted him in. No way anyone has considered Carr a pro bowler...ever. If you can't see the difference in Carr and Johnson when it comes to who has played better at his position to date, its really not worth arguing with you since I'd have to consider you clueless.

I am not trying to say one plays better than the other, but when people complain about Carr's pay compared to his performance, I can't help but look at what AJ makes and his performance. And when AJ made the pro bowl, sure he was voted in by his peers and the fans, but he had 1142 yards receiving that season and 6 TD's, which to me is a good season, but nothing spectacular. There were 7 WR's in the AFC who put up better numbers than AJ that season, including two WR's from Tennesse and Indy's #2 WR.

 

[Vinny]

I am not trying to say one plays better than the other, but when people complain about Carr's pay compared to his performance, I can't help but look at what AJ makes and his performance. And when AJ made the pro bowl, sure he was voted in by his peers and the fans, but he had 1142 yards receiving that season and 6 TD's, which to me is a good season, but nothing spectacular. There were 7 WR's in the AFC who put up better numbers than AJ that season, including two WR's from Tennesse and Indy's #2 WR.

Last time I checked AJ can't throw the ball to himself.

 

[texan279]

First, I've never said that getting 1000 yards was a big deal...... I mean it is, but the thing about DD, is that he's done it for multiple years........ more than one equates to multiple years. So just saying 32 running backs in 2005 ran for 1000 yards doesn't hurt my argument......

I'm not ignoring what you're writing..... I took that statement, and asked you which ones were scrubs...... or good but not great....... You mentioned McGahee, which I don't agree with, and someone else....... I thought the argument ended there.

yeah, I'm getting spun around by my dizziyng intellect.....

OK, this is what I was getting at...... these guys are good, but not great.... I could live with that..... you put DD in this category....... I could live with that...

if you are saying these guys aren't special, then I can't understand what you are talking about.


you and I both agree that Jamal Lewis and Curtis Martin are great backs.... DD being able to accomplish something similar to those two have got to mean something. Being that they went on to win the SuperBowl, I'd have to imagine that team was better than ours also...... even though it was a defensive minded team.... Same with Curtis Martin....... he's good..... we expect great backs to produce on bad teams..... Curtis got 16, my man got 1000...

I know you hate digging up all these facts for me and proving me wrong. but you're getting so good at it........... one more.

Who was the last running back to run for 1000 yards(or darn near) on a 2-14 team?? Did Barry Sanders ever do it??

or, are you saying the rest of the team doesn't matter..... great RBs will get 1400 yards regardless........

I know I'm throwing in more questions into the pot..... but i bet Curtis Martin's & Jamal Lewis first three years are very comparable to DDs....... if DDs isn't better.....

I'll be back.....

Jamal Lewis' 1st 3 seasons (did not play 2001)
1004 attempts 4757 yards 4.7 YPC 26 TD's

Curtis Martin's 1st 3 seasons
958 attempts 3799 yards 3.9 YPC 32 TD's

Davis' 1st 3 seasons
770 attempts 3195 yards 4.1 YPC 23 TD's

 

[texan279]

Last time I checked AJ can't throw the ball to himself.

So you're giving some credit to Carr for AJ's pro bowl season?

 

[Vinny]

So you're giving some credit to Carr for AJ's pro bowl season?

Carr isn't all horrible or all great. I see some of this hater/homer stuff and it amuses me since most reasonable people tend to see both sides...except on message boards.

Carr has struggled since he has been in the NFL. You can't say the same for AJ. I'll leave it at that.

 

[TwinSisters]

There were 7 WR's in the AFC who put up better numbers than AJ that season, including two WR's from Tennesse and Indy's #2 WR.

That's thing though. The bulk of people felt AJ was better then Carr, while Tennesse and Indy had McNair and Manning ( and the other QB's in the AFC ).

 

[infantrycak]

I saw Aikman as a leader...Smith and Irvin as producers. You like to compare Carr to Aikman but other than them both being good looking men and early picks...I don't see how these guys compare since Carr is a veteran with over 60 NFL starts now (more than Leftwich, Brees and Bulger) and not some rookie working off spec. Plain and simple his history is not stacking up like Aikman's did.

I wasn't comparing Carr and Aikman at all here. Merely talking about leadership in general and that it does not always primarily come from the QB position. I also don't think I have compared their career tracks here in over a year. Carr has clearly not developed as Aikman did after his 2nd year.

 

[Vinny]

I wasn't comparing Carr and Aikman at all here. Merely talking about leadership in general and that it does not always primarily come from the QB position. I also don't think I have compared their career tracks here in over a year. Carr has clearly not developed as Aikman did after his 2nd year.

Fair enough. I was probably hanging on to some old stuff.

 

[infantrycak]

Ok, motivating from the sideline.......... around here, we call that cheerleading.

I'm talking about commanding games, directing plays, executing your job to the best of your ability, and comanding that same effort from the other 10 guys on the field. I'm talking about patting the guy on the but when he does good, and getting in his face when he screws up. I'm talking about being a coach on the field.

Wow, so nothing off the field counts--whatever. FYI--Irvin and Smith played the same role in the huddle. In fact, Smith and Irvin both frequently went to the HC and made suggestions on the playcalling and even game plan. If you had watched many Cowboys games you would see Irvin and Smith rallying the troops, congratulating them, getting on them, etc. on the field and on the sidelines. The coaching staff even went so far at times as to facilitate Smith's wishes in the overall game plan such as when he wanted to break Peyton's single game record on his birthday in tribute to him--he had over 170 yds in the 1st half and then got a stinger by the way. Dallas' equivalent to John McClain at the time, Skip Bayless (yes he is a clown generally, but he had very good access to the Cowboys) maintained at the time and since that Irvin was the primary leader.

 

[infantrycak]

I saw Aikman as a leader...Smith and Irvin as producers.

I know you watch tons of the NFL generally, but the Cowboys were the team I grew up with and followed primarily until the advent of the Texans. I am by no means saying Aikman was not a leader, just that IMO from watching the behavior of all three the pecking order on leadership was Irvin and Smith 1st and Aikman 3rd. There are even some old clips around with Smith in the huddle saying things like OK time to drive a stake thru their hearts and run this thing up their gut all the way--at which point the coaches and Aikman signed off. Smith running with a separated shoulder against the Giants would be an example--that wasn't Norv, it was Emmitt.

Now Roger Staubach would be at the other extreme. He would even overrule Landry at times--legend has it that was how he got his starting job.

 

[Double Barrel]

The crazy thing about leadership on the Cowboys 90's dynasty was that the big three seemed to have different roles. Irvin was a very vocal leader, getting in players' faces and demanding that they step up. Smith was sort of a spiritual leader, one that led by his example of excellence and determination of will. Aikman always seemed quiet, but he led on the field by making plays, keeping egos in check, and being responsible about mistakes. He never seemed to let the pressure get to him, and that alone is a leadership quality that cannot be overlooked.

I honestly think it was a tri-lateral leadership between those three, and take away one part, they probably would not have won three championships in four seasons (with a new HC to boot!).

 

[thunderkyss]

Ok...... Curtis Martin was quite Durable his first three years..... he only missed 4 games, and 5 starts.....

So that's 45 games, 3799 yards, 3.93 yds/carry, 32 TDs, 202 FDs,

Jamal lewis....... I don't know the details, but it looks like he sat out his entire second season. I could go through the trouble, if you really want me, to, but I think we should just agree, DDs first three years were more productive than Jamal Lewis'

Now DD.....
40 games played, 36 started. 3195 yards, 4.1 yds/carry, 23 TDs, 142 FDs

now........ I consider that comparable....... not exactly the same, not saying DD is as good as Curtis Martin....... but comparable, especially when you consider the teams they were on, when they did this...

then you add DDs contributions to the passing game....

1276 yards, 5 TDs, and 60FDs

compared to CMs....

890 yards, 5TDs, 36 FDs.......

It gets closer.

 

[real]

I know you watch tons of the NFL generally, but the Cowboys were the team I grew up with and followed primarily until the advent of the Texans. I am by no means saying Aikman was not a leader, just that IMO from watching the behavior of all three the pecking order on leadership was Irvin and Smith 1st and Aikman 3rd. There are even some old clips around with Smith in the huddle saying things like OK time to drive a stake thru their hearts and run this thing up their gut all the way--at which point the coaches and Aikman signed off. Smith running with a separated shoulder against the Giants would be an example--that wasn't Norv, it was Emmitt.

Now Roger Staubach would be at the other extreme. He would even overrule Landry at times--legend has it that was how he got his starting job.

So in your opinion who is the leader on offense for the Texas ? Who do you think the leader of defense is? and the team ?

 

[infantrycak]

So in your opinion who is the leader on offense for the Texas ? Who do you think the leader of defense is? and the team ?

Well I kind of hinted at this above--in four years of games (I sit on the front row field level home team side by the way) I haven't seen anyone stepping up the way I have seen on the Cowboys in particular or many other teams. I noted several times on Sharper that it was a disappointment to me that he would come off the field and sit down. I have witnessed mentoring--Glenn was constantly around the DB's talking to them and making hand gestures. Wiegert occasionally would hold a little conference. While Palmer was the OC--Carr spent much of his time on the phone--noticeably not always calm or completely agreeable discussions. You could chalk it all up to the personality of the players, but I wonder whether there wasn't an environment built which had the coaches as the only place people looked. I was glad to hear last year about Payne delivering at least one team speech. Hopefully Flannigan will be a leader for the OL. As reported the team is asking Carr to become more vocal--my suspicion is Carr will be happy to speak up more but we will see. AJ is just a quiet guy--maybe Moulds will be the vocal leader for the WR's.

Love to hear anyone else's observations.

 

[TwinSisters]

Aikman always seemed quiet, but he led on the field by making plays, keeping egos in check, and being responsible about mistakes. He never seemed to let the pressure get to him, and that alone is a leadership quality that cannot be overlooked.

That's what I thought too, but NFL Films tried to debunk that myth a little a few weeks back. That had this Legends clip running with Aikman getting into people's faces and letting them now when they messed up ( and not being nice about it ).

Montana was different and used positive re-inforcement, like Walsh.

McMahon was completely different and worked like Ditka.. he would kick his players if they messed up. And it worked for him.