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David Carr: Amongst the worst in 40 years

TwinSisters

TwinSisters

Veteran
It's about time to get another David Carr topic running...

What I am looking for is to see how bad Carr ranks amongst starting QBs that played 4 straight seasons for the same team.

Using only major categories and going back to just 1960.

*Ravens - Kyle Boller in three seasons never cracked a column. Replaced for the the fourth.

Browns - Tim Couch 4 seasons and half.. zilcho.

Colts - Mike Pagel 4 seasons and traded after the fourth.

Giants - Dave Brown removed from play in his 4th season ( due to injury )

Steelers - Mark Malone 4 years as a starter and zilch.

*Raiders - Marc Wilson from 84-87 barely made adjusted yards per pass

*Falcons - Michael Vick in 3 starting seasons almost beats Carr out for the worst. He cracks 8th in his second season for adjusted yards per pass over Bledsoe in 2002.

*Jaguars - Leftwich will be starting his fourth with only one crack in 2005 at 9th in the NFL for yards adjusted per pass.

*Dolphins - Fiedler cracked #10 in TDs thrown in one season out of 4 starting. The rest was barren...


Joe Fergeson, Mike Phipps, Eric Hipple, Joey Harrington, Don Majkowski, Lynn Dickey, Joe Kapp, Bill Kenney, Mike Livingston, Bobby Herbert, Archie Manning, Ken O'Brien, Jim Zorn, Dave Krieg, John Brodie, Neil O'Donnell, Tony Banks, Stan Humphries, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Gus Frerotte, Mark Rypien, and Billy Kilmer.

Every single one of those guys, that held a four year starting slot, had at least one good season cracking the top 10.

David Carr is amongst the worst 4 year starters in the history of the NFL.

Mark Malone, Tim Couch, Mike Pagel, and David Carr.
---

The odd thing I noticed about this... is that under performing QBs have held their starting spot longer post-salary cap! Wonder what that is about?

---

EDIT:

Will add this stat

there are only 3 QBs in the NFL since 1960 that have held their starting job after 4 straight losing seasons

Dan Fouts Chargers 73-76 ( injured for 77 .500 season, winning season 78 )
made 3rd in completions his 4th season 76'

Vinny Testaverde Bucs 88-92 5 seasons ( traded to Cleveland on his 6th )
Who knows? Maybe because of the "U"? 14 seasons starting, 4 with a winning record

Archie Manning 77-81 ( was the starter earlier too, but had a break in 76`with injury )
1st in completions in 72 as full-time starter
 
Compare apples with apples -- Carr has been with an expansion team for the first four years. For some reason, folks don't seem to realize this.
 
wierd that most of the sports writers and coaches think Carr still has what it takes to be a great QB and blame the coaching/o-line/system but you would rather bash Carr, oh well, whatever blows yer skirt up, so to speak..
 
Problem in your theory because Carr and Vick have both cracked the top 10 in rushing for a QB so does that not make all your work null and void. Good start though and would likely prove alot if done in a spreadsheet with stats and tendencies plotted out. If you come up with that email it to me cause I would love to take a look at it.
 
Coach C. said:
Problem in your theory because Carr and Vick have both cracked the top 10 in rushing for a QB so does that not make all your work null and void. Good start though and would likely prove alot if done in a spreadsheet with stats and tendencies plotted out. If you come up with that email it to me cause I would love to take a look at it.
Click to expand...

Not really. Because if you factor in rushes, then you have to factor in sacks and yards lost. Which would then push Carr back into negative yards.

He has 208 for 1226 at 5.8 per attempt going backwards and 215 for 1040 at 4.8 going forward.

Vick on the other hand is 406 for 2082 at 6.9 going forward and 142 for 850 at 5.9 going backwards.

that's a net gain of 1232 ( more than Carr's gross )

Carr as only one season moving forward and that is for less than a hundred yards.

Couldn't really compare them with older QBs because they didn't count sacks/rushing attempts the same. Either way these other QBs from the past 40 years that started for 4 years or more did something in that period that earned them a top 10 spot in a category that remotely matters; completions, wins, yards, TDs, playoffs, non-losing seasons, or even attempts to throw.

Archie didn't have a great line, Fouts didn't have a great coach, Vinny had a horrible team, but he was still able to crack the top ten in yards his first season.

---

As for sports writers:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/players/01/04/sacked0109/index.html
Carr, who was sacked a league-high 68 times this season, knows when one is coming. "On the road the crowd gets louder. At home the crowd kind of gives an oohh," he says. "The biggest thing is that you know there's nothing you can do about it. The last two feet before he gets to you, you're just trying to get down, make yourself tiny and see if you can avoid a big one. Then you've got to bounce up faster than the guy who sacked you to show them your team is not defeated."
Click to expand...

Hmmm nothing you can do about it?

"I felt like we were playing to our potential today," David Carr said after the narrow loss to the Bengals. Sacked seven times. Playing to their potential. God help them.
Click to expand...

Dr.Z
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/dr_z/10/05/ranks.week4.part2/index.html

This is good because 3 out 4 Americans believe in miracles.
---
Joe Montana, Hall of Fame quarterback and amongst the greatest to ever play the position, what's his assessment of Carr's past 4 years?

"hadn't done anything." - Joe on Dave
 
The problem that I have with your contention of those teams is that the only one that had a comparable situation to us was Tim Couch and the Browns, them also being an expansion team. Obviously we've have offensive line problems, and I'll take a bet with you any day that a team with major offensive line problems like ours will never garner better than a .500 record until those problems are fixed.

There's a reason why just about everyone in the professional sports community thinks Carr has what it takes...maybe you'd see that something too if you had as much experience as they do.
 
I'm anxiously waiting for the Carr:homer: 's to flood this thread, though I'm enjoying it! IMO, this thread will be 'special,' TWINSISTERS, because you are very good at come backs and you can usually back-up your statements. Initally, I think this post will 'shock' some people because they consider it 'taboo' to say anything negative about Carr anytime-anywhere-anyplace. I can only hope that we hear some new responses to this thread and not the same old excuses for David that we all know 'by heart.'

This team is never going to win with a QB that can only function when 'everything' around him is 'perfect.' Several posters have attempted-before being 'lambasted'-to discuss the intangible concept of 'it.' The greatest QBs of all times (Unitas,Starr,Staubach,Montanna,etc.) were not always the 'proto type' player with all the physical attributes, but they had 'it'-whatever it took to win. They inspired those around them with a confidence and performance that never ever was based on failure or excuses. And, the 'buck' stopped with them. Unitas,especially, defies the definition of a #1 drafted QB (which he was not). He was nothing special coming out of Louisville but went on to 'greatness' in the NFL. Tall and gangly, he was not a runner or a strong-armed thrower but he had 'it.'

Carr's legacy entering his 5th year is that he has been unable to perform his best because of the 'circumstances' around him. He has not even been expected to do well when all was OK around him, an unfortunate result of zero accountability. One has to wonder now-in this 5th year with so much change around him-if Carr can find 'it.' IMO, it will be very sad --regardless of anything else this season--if 'accountabilty' is still not part of the equation...
 
"There's a reason why just about everyone in the professional sports community thinks Carr has what it takes...maybe you'd see that something too if you had as much experience as they do."

There have been a lot of first round QBs that have failed (George,Smith,Dilfer,Couch,Klinger,Ware,etc.)--you don't think these same 'sports folks' did not say the same things about them? IMO, this statement is not an indicator of 'anything.'
 
And to make it even scarier, Tim Couch had better stats and a better record than Carr while in the same situation. I'd look for those 2 to be playing golf together on Sundays in the near future.
 
Another Carr thread! :hides:

Before you can start a serious Carr thread, you must think about some things first. If everyone did just that, there would be a tenth of the number of Carr threads on this MB. Let's begin.

First, what do you think of Joey Harrington?

Secondly, what division are we in?

Third, how many years have the Texans been in existance?

Answer those for me and maybe you can see where I am coming from. Actually, nevermind. I don't expect you to have any idea where my argument is coming from. I will write a follow up after next season.
 
TwinSisters said:
It's about time to get another David Carr topic running...

What I am looking for is to see how bad Carr ranks amongst starting QBs that played 4 straight seasons for the same team.

Using only major categories and going back to just 1960.

*Ravens - Kyle Boller in three seasons never cracked a column. Replaced for the the fourth.

Browns - Tim Couch 4 seasons and half.. zilcho.

Colts - Mike Pagel 4 seasons and traded after the fourth.

Giants - Dave Brown removed from play in his 4th season ( due to injury )

Steelers - Mark Malone 4 years as a starter and zilch.

*Raiders - Marc Wilson from 84-87 barely made adjusted yards per pass

*Falcons - Michael Vick in 3 starting seasons almost beats Carr out for the worst. He cracks 8th in his second season for adjusted yards per pass over Bledsoe in 2002.

*Jaguars - Leftwich will be starting his fourth with only one crack in 2005 at 9th in the NFL for yards adjusted per pass.

*Dolphins - Fiedler cracked #10 in TDs thrown in one season out of 4 starting. The rest was barren...


Joe Fergeson, Mike Phipps, Eric Hipple, Joey Harrington, Don Majkowski, Lynn Dickey, Joe Kapp, Bill Kenney, Mike Livingston, Bobby Herbert, Archie Manning, Ken O'Brien, Jim Zorn, Dave Krieg, John Brodie, Neil O'Donnell, Tony Banks, Stan Humphries, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Gus Frerotte, Mark Rypien, and Billy Kilmer.

Every single one of those guys, that held a four year starting slot, had at least one good season cracking the top 10.

David Carr is amongst the worst 4 year starters in the history of the NFL.

Mark Malone, Tim Couch, Mike Pagel, and David Carr.
---

The odd thing I noticed about this... is that under performing QBs have held their starting spot longer post-salary cap! Wonder what that is about?

---

EDIT:

Will add this stat

there are only 3 QBs in the NFL since 1960 that have held their starting job after 4 straight losing seasons

Dan Fouts Chargers 73-76 ( injured for 77 .500 season, winning season 78 )
made 3rd in completions his 4th season 76'

Vinny Testaverde Bucs 88-92 5 seasons ( traded to Cleveland on his 6th )
Who knows? Maybe because of the "U"? 14 seasons starting, 4 with a winning record

Archie Manning 77-81 ( was the starter earlier too, but had a break in 76`with injury )
1st in completions in 72 as full-time starter
Click to expand...

Twinsisters this is a great article. This is exactly what I've been saying for the last 4 years about Carrs. But, here's another point to ponder Daivd Carr is probably the only QB in NFL history to be rewarded with a 8 million dollars bonus and a new contract after having 4 losing seasons in a row and one of the worst QB rating ever recorded. Now, that's amazing!
:hides:
 
the wonger need food said:
And to make it even scarier, Tim Couch had better stats and a better record than Carr while in the same situation. I'd look for those 2 to be playing golf together on Sundays in the near future.
Click to expand...

Tim Couch has no shoulder left after multiple surgeries. Did you count career ending injuries towards your statistics. If you hadn't read around the league the last couple of years, he had major surgery on his shoulder and lasic surgery on his eyes, both reasons he claims to have failed in Cleveland. Couch has been given a couple test runs through the past couple of off seasons, but he will never make it back to the NFL. It's little things like this that ruin statistics.

NATHANHALE said:
There have been a lot of first round QBs that have failed (George,Smith,Dilfer,Couch,Klinger,Ware,etc.)--you don't think these same 'sports folks' did not say the same things about them? IMO, this statement is not an indicator of 'anything.'
Click to expand...

Actually no, analysts don't give them much time. Look at recent picks, Joey Harrington was considered a bust after 3 years, because he was given talent and did nothing with it. J.P. Losman is getting flack from most of the "sports guys" and he's only in year 2. Basically, these guys can see talent. I remember reading an artircle on Carr a few months back, (I wish I could find it), which basically said that only three prototypoe quarterbacks have come out in the last 10 years, Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer and David Carr. That's some pretty elite company. Carr has a cannon, can move and had very little talent and coaching for 4 years. Stats can't show that.
 
Texans86 said:
Tim Couch has no shoulder left after multiple surgeries. Did you count career ending injuries towards your statistics. If you hadn't read around the league the last couple of years, he had major surgery on his shoulder and lasic surgery on his eyes, both reasons he claims to have failed in Cleveland.
Click to expand...

All of those physical issues and he was still better than Carr. That makes it even scarier.
 
A BIG fact, that's conveniently overlooked for this little comparison is the changes in NFL scheduling.

Carr is the only QB in that list to have to take an expansion team through its beginning years w/o the benefit of a TRUE SoS adjustment.

Since the NFL wanted to make sure that EVERY team in EVERY division played each other every x years, it subsequently left only 2 GAMES to adjust for the previous years success / failure.

As a result, this year's Texans have to play the 8th hardest schedule in the NFL, despite finishing last season ranked #32.

To re-iterate the point TL13 was making, being in the AFC South has added to Carr's woes, since the Texans aren't getting the schedule adjustments that they would have in years past.

...don't even get me started on our O-Line , blocking scheme changes, etc.:brickwall
 
disaacks3 said:
A BIG fact, that's conveniently overlooked for this little comparison is the changes in NFL scheduling.

Carr is the only QB in that list to have to take an expansion team through its beginning years w/o the benefit of a TRUE SoS adjustment.

Since the NFL wanted to make sure that EVERY team in EVERY division played each other every x years, it subsequently left only 2 GAMES to adjust for the previous years success / failure.

As a result, this year's Texans have to play the 8th hardest schedule in the NFL, despite finishing last season ranked #32.

To re-iterate the point TL13 was making, being in the AFC South has added to Carr's woes, since the Texans aren't getting the schedule adjustments that they would have in years past.

...don't even get me started on our O-Line , blocking scheme changes, etc.:brickwall
Click to expand...


This is the most original excuse that I've seen, probably ever. Well played...
 
Wow, someone has facts to support the fact that Carr sucks. What a surprise. Now you are going to tell me that the sky is blue. Bottom line is this franchise has pinned their hopes on this horrible QB and we have to make due until they finally realize the guy is a worthless pile of dog excrement. He doesnt have the dedication it takes to be a quality NFL quarterback and should look into modeling or becoming a preacher.

Doug from the Woodlands
 
THIS?

AGAIN?

Congratulations, Twin Sisters!

You are the proud owner of about the 1,000th thread bashing David Carr.

You should feel like you truly have an "eye" for the game.

(A third eye, that is)

Can the mods lock out the Carr Bashing threads AT LEAST until somewhere in the middle of the season after we've all had a chance to see him in a system that doesn't emulate Capers' pee-wee league playcalling?

You guys are risking a lot here. If Carr goes out and "wows" the league this year, you're going to look awfully silly. I think I'll start a list of all the bashers and keep it for the future when you back pedal and post your "Way to go, David!" threads. There'll be a big "calling out" party by yours truly.

Thanks again for the top-notch analysis. :shades:
 
I'm not one who hates or loves Carr. But I certainly feel that he should get a chance in his new environment. We all know that our kids grow up much in the mold of their mentor parents. Carr was a "kid" when he entered the NFL........his "parents" in many ways abandoned him and have been discredited of being good parents from a myriad of perspectives. Particularly telling......most have disappeared into anonymity. So yes, I am willing to allow him this year to see if he is able to fly, or or die under the tutelage of his new more discipline-oriented "stepparents."
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
THIS?

AGAIN?

Congratulations, Twin Sisters!

You are the proud owner of about the 1,000th thread bashing David Carr.

You should feel like you truly have an "eye" for the game.

(A third eye, that is)

Can the mods lock out the Carr Bashing threads AT LEAST until somewhere in the middle of the season after we've all had a chance to see him in a system that doesn't emulate Capers' pee-wee league playcalling?

You guys are risking a lot here. If Carr goes out and "wows" the league this year, you're going to look awfully silly. I think I'll start a list of all the bashers and keep it for the future when you back pedal and post your "Way to go, David!" threads. There'll be a big "calling out" party by yours truly.
Thanks again for the top-notch analysis. :shades:
Click to expand...


I've actually thought of doing the same thing. While I'm not a Carr ''homer'', I do still have confidence in him to be a sucessful QB. So I'm really curious as to what all the Carr haters responces would be if Carr does turn it around.
 
Straight from the NFL scout report
Positives: Strong, well-built athlete with good body definition (rangy) … Sets up quickly and is ready to throw in an instant … Has good mechanics and an incredibly fast release … Shows accuracy on his long tosses and has a very lively arm in the short areas … Very composed under pressure, in the Brett Favre mold … Mature and confident field leader who is well-respected by teammates and very competitive with the opposition … Tactful in his actions, but will not hesitate to "correct" a teammate when needed … Throws a catchable ball, putting impressive touch with zip to make it easy for his receivers to haul in the ball … Displays tremendous velocity with proper timing when he airs out the long bomb, getting optimum effort behind his powerful arm … Has the vision to easily pick up the stunts and scans the field well, feeling the pressure quickly to avoid the rush while maintaining his composure … Has a three-step release point and will take the sack rather than force the ball into traffic … Shows the ability to locate the secondary targets when the primary ones are covered … Very effective scrambler in the Donovan McNabb mold, but his maturity allows him to be patient as he first waits for the play to develop … Throws the ball with a tight spiral and makes proper reads when scanning downfield … Can throw off his back foot when making his drops … Sets, drifts and settles in the pocket, displaying a soft touch to feather the ball over the defender's head … Makes proper checks at the line and is very alert in avoiding the rush … Has good rotation on the ball … When sequencing through his receivers, he can drop his arm to three-quarters and zing the ball.
Negatives: While he shows accuracy on his long passes, his arm strength is adequate, as he tends to arc his deep attempts … Holds the ball too long, inviting the sack, rather than dumping it off or throwing it away … Makes proper checks, but does not have a variety of throws … Needs to improve his pass drop, as he does a lot of three-step motion and will hold the ball a little too long, taking the sack rather than throwing it away.
Click to expand...

There, so now you know the negatives and positives of Carr. Agree with the poster above, I'd like to see how he does away from "Capers ball" of run, run, avoid the sack, punt. At least for a season.
 
There is one major flaw in your logic.

You are measuring how good a QB is based on the team's win/loss record. This is the ultimate team sport. Let's not forget this.

How long have the Texans been around?
How has the Texans Defense ranked the last four years?
How good has the O-line been?
How good have the recievers been?
How good was the coaching?
How much experience does our owner have?

You can call these excuses all you want but like it or not they matter. Just ask Big Ben in Pittsburgh.

PS: Carr is ok, I need to actually see him do something before I praise him.
 
NATHANHALE said:
I'm anxiously waiting for the Carr:homer: 's to flood this thread, though I'm enjoying it! IMO, this thread will be 'special,' TWINSISTERS, because you are very good at come backs and you can usually back-up your statements. Initally, I think this post will 'shock' some people because they consider it 'taboo' to say anything negative about Carr anytime-anywhere-anyplace. I can only hope that we hear some new responses to this thread and not the same old excuses for David that we all know 'by heart.'

This team is never going to win with a QB that can only function when 'everything' around him is 'perfect.' Several posters have attempted-before being 'lambasted'-to discuss the intangible concept of 'it.' The greatest QBs of all times (Unitas,Starr,Staubach,Montanna,etc.) were not always the 'proto type' player with all the physical attributes, but they had 'it'-whatever it took to win. They inspired those around them with a confidence and performance that never ever was based on failure or excuses. And, the 'buck' stopped with them. Unitas,especially, defies the definition of a #1 drafted QB (which he was not). He was nothing special coming out of Louisville but went on to 'greatness' in the NFL. Tall and gangly, he was not a runner or a strong-armed thrower but he had 'it.'

Carr's legacy entering his 5th year is that he has been unable to perform his best because of the 'circumstances' around him. He has not even been expected to do well when all was OK around him, an unfortunate result of zero accountability. One has to wonder now-in this 5th year with so much change around him-if Carr can find 'it.' IMO, it will be very sad --regardless of anything else this season--if 'accountabilty' is still not part of the equation...
Click to expand...


I take it that you wrote this to get a response on the other side of the pendellum

well I'll stop the ball from swinging in the middle here.

some on this board don't think Carr is the 2nd coming of Dan Marino or Joe Montana or anything like that.. Some of us feel that he is a QB that can make pretty much every throw that is required in the NFL. If you don't believe it look up the video's in the bullpen section. HOWEVER, I feel and (I really can't speak for everyone) others feel that the problem is within Carr's head. And how can anyone blame him, 200+ sacks and who knows how many hits while throwing will mess ANY QB that is in league, even the great Montana.. With that said.. Kubiak is the man that has to get into David's head and get him to have that cocky swagger that a QB has to have (just like Garner needs to get into Brad Lidge's head) and to trust his teammates and his teammates trust him. If Kubiak can't do that, well McNair made a gamble that didn't pay off (keeping Carr) and Dan Reeves made a mistake watching game film on Carr and gave the wrong advice.. it could happen.
and if that is the case Brady Quinn here we come.

As far as your "perfect" statement.. I don't buy that (and that is probably a ploy just to get the homers to bite.. some of us don't think the situation has to be perfect. but looking at the history of this franchise, we took lumps (i.e. injuries and bad luck) that every franchise takes, It is just that an expansion team can't afford to have them due to depth problems. To play the what if game.. I can't imagine what this franchise would be like right now (well I know we wouldn't have had these types of threads) if ryan young would have panned out at RT like he should have and Boselli would have been healed going into the 2003 season (we'd still would have drafted AJ) I am not making an excuse,it is the OL problems that have plagued us would not have been a problem. imagine 2003, Boselli,Pitts,Mckinney,weigart,Young.. I am not saying Carr would have been an All-pro, but the game surely would have slowed down for him. When you have OL problems that really limits the playbook.

As far as perfect for him.. IMO the problems with the passing game starts with TE, when a team has TE's that can't block and catch at the same time, that is a problem. I am not expecting the next Tony Gonzales or even Dave Casper, but at least someone that a defense can't half way guess what we are doing based on what TE we have.. now to WR's...not that Bradford.. makes the spectacular catches and yet makes the spectacular drops.. I don't know how anyone can defend Bradford due to the fact that without a legit TE and bradford that equals constant double teams on AJ .. And without a legit TE means constant cover 2 defense that the Texans have historically not able to beat.

Coaching. now I am obviously not a coach, yet many Sundays how many times have y'all picked the play that was going to be run by the Texans? And if we picked it, I know that the teams keep tendency charts on other teams in certain situations.. The drafting philosopy of the Texans didn't match the style of play that the Texans ran.. round peg in a square hole syndrome. Capers likes the big OL and pound the ball, yet we drafted a gunslinging QB and a Talented WR high in the draft (not bashing the drafting of these two,just saying) and can't really utilize them. 2004 we did, we got AJ the ball where he could catch it and keep running, 2005 well hooks and hitches don't really help someone like AJ that is a threat if he gets the ball while moving downfield I liked Capers as a DC but HC ...but his choice of assistants ..hmm
 
LBC_Justin said:
There is one major flaw in your logic.

You are measuring how good a QB is based on the team's win/loss record. This is the ultimate team sport. Let's not forget this.

How long have the Texans been around?
Click to expand...
my previous post talked about injuries and depth on that and imagine how the franchise could have been
How has the Texans Defense ranked the last four years?
Click to expand...
yeah, I never thought a Capers team would have a defense ranked 30ish..To this day I don't know why Capers didn't take over the playcalling of the defense)
How good has the O-line been?
Click to expand...
speaks for itself, and we will see what difference Sherman will make over Pendry

How good have the recievers been?
Click to expand...
my previous post explained my thought on that.. not having a two way TE in hurts
How good was the coaching?
Well for me I liked Capers as a DC. People on this board bashed Palmer and bashed Palmer from day one, yet Fangio had the experience players on defense and somehow he wasn't held accountable. Walker,Payne,Sharper,Coleman,Glenn.. I mean wow out out 11 guys..Walker,Glenn were ex-probowlers and Sharper was above average (IMO)
Coleman and Payne were solid .... Yet offensively we take our horrible OL and the coach and reward him with taking over the offensive coordinator duties.
How much experience does our owner have?
Click to expand...

That one I don't really know how to answer that. Some owners are hands on some stay out of it

You can call these excuses all you want but like it or not they matter. Just ask Big Ben in Pittsburgh.

PS: Carr is ok, I need to actually see him do something before I praise him.
Click to expand...

overall, I agree these were big problems
Click to expand...
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
THIS?

AGAIN?

Congratulations, Twin Sisters!

You are the proud owner of about the 1,000th thread bashing David Carr.

You should feel like you truly have an "eye" for the game.

(A third eye, that is)

Can the mods lock out the Carr Bashing threads AT LEAST until somewhere in the middle of the season after we've all had a chance to see him in a system that doesn't emulate Capers' pee-wee league playcalling?

You guys are risking a lot here. If Carr goes out and "wows" the league this year, you're going to look awfully silly. I think I'll start a list of all the bashers and keep it for the future when you back pedal and post your "Way to go, David!" threads. There'll be a big "calling out" party by yours truly.

Thanks again for the top-notch analysis. :shades:
Click to expand...

You said 'if' and not 'when.' 'C mon, now, where's that confidence? Problem,here, is that you don't get it---folks would love for Carr to 'show up,' and they won't run and hide like the -well you know-- did last year. Please. Please, David--have a 'great' year and deliver us from the 'land of the excuses.' High gas prices and excuses--something has to 'go away.'
 
NATHANHALE said:
You said 'if' and not 'when.' 'C mon, now, where's that confidence? Problem,here, is that you don't get it---folks would love for Carr to 'show up,' and they won't run and hide like the -well you know-- did last year. Please. Please, David--have a 'great' year and deliver us from the 'land of the excuses.' High gas prices and excuses--something has to 'go away.'
Click to expand...


you put in "great" .. what is great?
 
Wolf said:
you put in "great" .. what is great?
Click to expand...

'Great' is the kind of year where Carr's performance/results has everyone talking about and saying, "Now, there's the David Carr we've been waiting for"- a year that ends once and for all the debate over whether Carr is the 'man.'...and, finally, a 'great' year stops the excuses.

Carr does not have to lead the league in passing for it to be a 'great' year for him--his stats don't have to be 'off the wall'--actually, 'great' here is an 'intangible' that suggest that maybe Carr does have 'it,' after all.
 
LBC_Justin said:
You can call these excuses all you want but like it or not they matter. Just ask Big Ben in Pittsburgh.
Click to expand...

That statement right there is the ultimate Anti-Carrbasher.

Big Ben Rottenburger played like such a rookie in the SB last year that I almost died watching it. Matter of fact... the entire playoffs last year showed poor QBing. Brady and Rottenburger played like rookies and Eli Manning got owned (ahaha). Don't even get me started on Chris Simms....

You people who relate W-L to QBs as if it is their sole responsibility are killing me. I'm not a Carr lover but I will defend his position any day of the week, just because all the anti-Carr arguments are so lame! Just go ahead and admit that you resent us passing VY, or maybe you wanted Harrington for our first draft? Who knows with you guys.
 
Out of 31 posts, some 25 have been by the anti-carr crowd. Most post though have been by two trolls and some folks just keep feeding them.
 
well the "great" is something that can be debated over and over.

there are different levels of great.. It can be stat wise Dan marino,dan fouts etc,etc.. or it can be Joe Montana where he just wins..


however with the addition of Moulds and some TE's .. this has to improve for david carr.. and should with more talent down close.

inside the redzone.. only 8 TD's with 57 attempts. ..Matt Hassellback had 55 attempts and 16 TD's

http://footballguys.com/05week17qbredzone.php


let me clarrify though... the TEAM has to improve
Carr did complete a little over 50 percent of his passes in the RZ .. the team needs to improve and should with Putzer and Joppru and company


some other stats
http://footballguys.com/stats.htm
 
how does Carr rank among QBs on expansion teams with terrible offensive lines and extremely defensive minded coaches that prefer to use a running offense, but refuse to invest in the proper personell to do so?

in a few hundred more years.. we may have enough information that we can compare a player against other players that were in similar situations in the past.. but probably not. Carr's situation is different.. and because of that..you cannot compare him to other QBs who have been in situations that are hardly comparable to his.

Instead of focusing on what you can deduce through statistical evidence.. you should be focusing on what you have seen with your own eyes.

But you wont.. and people will still look at Carr and go "omg his stats are worse than <insert bad QB from 10 years ago>".

Whatever.. Carr will either solidify his position as our starting QB over the next couple seasons..or he will be replaced.. no amount of whining and worrying on our part is gonna change that.. and im not going to sit here and dog on him, trying to get some idea of the magnitude of his suckyness.
 
On Radio 790, just about 45 minnutes ago (did anyone catch it, I was in the car) they were reviewing the 2006 teams and when they came to the Texans, their entire focus was on Carr. There was nothing but accolades about his mental and physical toughness. They felt that most QB's under the circumstances would not have made it this far. They said that he had a canon for an arm and that they expected that under the guidance of Kubiak et al, their new scheme, and Carr's new supporting cast, he would show the world that he is one of the top QB's in the league, and that he would be around for a long time. They did not think in terms of ProBowl at this time, since the AFC was so filled with high powered guns, but that he would stand out.
 
TwinSisters said:
It's about time to get another David Carr topic running...

What I am looking for is to see how bad Carr ranks amongst starting QBs that played 4 straight seasons for the same team.

Using only major categories and going back to just 1960.

*Ravens - Kyle Boller in three seasons never cracked a column. Replaced for the the fourth.

Browns - Tim Couch 4 seasons and half.. zilcho.

Colts - Mike Pagel 4 seasons and traded after the fourth.

Giants - Dave Brown removed from play in his 4th season ( due to injury )

Steelers - Mark Malone 4 years as a starter and zilch.

*Raiders - Marc Wilson from 84-87 barely made adjusted yards per pass

*Falcons - Michael Vick in 3 starting seasons almost beats Carr out for the worst. He cracks 8th in his second season for adjusted yards per pass over Bledsoe in 2002.

*Jaguars - Leftwich will be starting his fourth with only one crack in 2005 at 9th in the NFL for yards adjusted per pass.

*Dolphins - Fiedler cracked #10 in TDs thrown in one season out of 4 starting. The rest was barren...


Joe Fergeson, Mike Phipps, Eric Hipple, Joey Harrington, Don Majkowski, Lynn Dickey, Joe Kapp, Bill Kenney, Mike Livingston, Bobby Herbert, Archie Manning, Ken O'Brien, Jim Zorn, Dave Krieg, John Brodie, Neil O'Donnell, Tony Banks, Stan Humphries, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Gus Frerotte, Mark Rypien, and Billy Kilmer.

Every single one of those guys, that held a four year starting slot, had at least one good season cracking the top 10.

David Carr is amongst the worst 4 year starters in the history of the NFL.

Mark Malone, Tim Couch, Mike Pagel, and David Carr.
---

The odd thing I noticed about this... is that under performing QBs have held their starting spot longer post-salary cap! Wonder what that is about?

---

EDIT:

Will add this stat

there are only 3 QBs in the NFL since 1960 that have held their starting job after 4 straight losing seasons

Dan Fouts Chargers 73-76 ( injured for 77 .500 season, winning season 78 )
made 3rd in completions his 4th season 76'

Vinny Testaverde Bucs 88-92 5 seasons ( traded to Cleveland on his 6th )
Who knows? Maybe because of the "U"? 14 seasons starting, 4 with a winning record

Archie Manning 77-81 ( was the starter earlier too, but had a break in 76`with injury )
1st in completions in 72 as full-time starter
Click to expand...

You can't judge whether Carr will be a good QB based on him "cracking a column"...
 
bkimble said:
Twinsisters this is a great article. This is exactly what I've been saying for the last 4 years about Carrs. But, here's another point to ponder Daivd Carr is probably the only QB in NFL history to be rewarded with a 8 million dollars bonus and a new contract after having 4 losing seasons in a row and one of the worst QB rating ever recorded. Now, that's amazing!
:hides:
Click to expand...


losing seasons are not placed on a QB's shoulders alone and carr has an average of 73.7 QB rating in his 4 seasons The 1st 2 yrs were bad the last 2 were decent. i say thats pretty good for a guy who has had to go thru what he has with no blocking Brady/Favre/Manning any of those guys would have had just as many problems. Give the guy a chance with a O line who has worked together and has chemistry instead of a patch work line of guys who didnt know where they'll line up every week:twocents:
 
I'd add a response to this thread but I don't really have one to give at this time. I won't have an opinion about David Carr until this season has progressed to a point where I can make some educated deductions. Right now I don't think much of what I'm reading about David Carr in here is worth the time it took to type it. That includes threads bashing him as well as praising him.

I need to see him play under a non Palmer/Pendry system to be completely sure of what I'm seeing. Until then I have not much to say on this.
 
Hervoyel said:
I'd add a response to this thread but I don't really have one to give at this time. I won't have an opinion about David Carr until this season has progressed to a point where I can make some educated deductions. Right now I don't think much of what I'm reading about David Carr in here is worth the time it took to type it. That includes threads bashing him as well as praising him.

I need to see him play under a non Palmer/Pendry system to be completely sure of what I'm seeing. Until then I have not much to say on this.
Click to expand...

Thanks for putting some sanity into the whole Carr thing. I don't think we can use the last 4 seasons to judge Carr or anyone else for that matter on the team for numerous reasons.
 
Yo, Twisted Sister...or..twin...whatever.

If you're gonna scrounge through stats for the WORST after 4....why don't you do yourself a favor and research the BEST after 3.

GRANTED...LAST YEAR was awful. I STILL have the empty bottles of asprin from the headaches those games caused.

And we could go ON AND ON about why/who/what is to blame for 2005. But after 3 years...Carr was among the best in MANY categories. The only one that really beat Carr after 3 was Marino (but go figure, right).

Back off a bit, my friend.

2006 will be the ultimate test. Until then, I'd call it an "incomplete" at this point.

And if Carr is as bad as some would like to claim as FACT, then in 2006 we have a few awesome QB's to pick from....Kolb & Quinn come to mind immediately.

Until 2006 is in the books...Carr & the Texans have my FULL support!

Go Texans!

DSP
 
This is an example of finding obscure stats for "analysis" to paint a predetermined conclusion.

As much as you might like us to believe that you were sincerely interested in a comparative analysis of quarterback skill (through the obviously relevant "starting QBs who played four straight seasons for the same team") ... I don't believe it. I think you don't like Carr and wanted to find something to prove that he is a "bad QB" ... which to your credit, this is at least a creative approach. Since basic QB rating or passing statistics, let alone career W-L, don't put Carr anywhere near the "among the worst" in the league (he's been middle of the pack over those four years) ... guess you had to go this route.

This belongs right up there with the "Vince Young is the superior QB because he won a college championship" argument. Never mind factors like caliber of teammates, coaching, strength of schedule; that obscure part of football known as "team."

No one, least of all me, is denying that Carr hasn't really lived up to "potential" or even expectations yet; Carr, Kubiak and McNair have publicly said as much. I just don't get why people keep wanting to pretend that he's been given a remotely servicable opportunity to do so.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
On Radio 790, just about 45 minnutes ago (did anyone catch it, I was in the car) they were reviewing the 2006 teams and when they came to the Texans, their entire focus was on Carr. There was nothing but accolades about his mental and physical toughness. They felt that most QB's under the circumstances would not have made it this far. They said that he had a canon for an arm and that they expected that under the guidance of Kubiak et al, their new scheme, and Carr's new supporting cast, he would show the world that he is one of the top QB's in the league, and that he would be around for a long time. They did not think in terms of ProBowl at this time, since the AFC was so filled with high powered guns, but that he would stand out.
Click to expand...


That seems to be a common perception of Carr at this point by many other sports reporters, NFL coaches, Dan Reeves, and Gary Kubiak. I guess that's not enough for some people though.
 
A4toZ said:
Straight from the NFL scout report


There, so now you know the negatives and positives of Carr. Agree with the poster above, I'd like to see how he does away from "Capers ball" of run, run, avoid the sack, punt. At least for a season.
Click to expand...


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/warroom/1997/value_board/top100.html

Ryan Leaf (NFL's Biggest Bust?) scored ahead of Peyton Manning in the 1998 NFL Draft. Your profile about Carr lists among his strengths many items that are considered among his weaknesses in the NFL-holds onto the ball,slow decision making,slow release,etc. What happened? Great stats and glowing profiles don't always 'translate to success on the field...
 
NATHANHALE said:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/warroom/1997/value_board/top100.html

Ryan Leaf (NFL's Biggest Bust?) scored ahead of Peyton Manning in the 1998 NFL Draft. Your profile about Carr lists among his strengths many items that are considered among his weaknesses in the NFL-holds onto the ball,slow decision making,slow release,etc. What happened? Great stats and glowing profiles don't always 'translate to success on the field...
Click to expand...

...and? Thanks for the exception - what about the other top drafted players from the past that DID translate to the NFL? I guess Bush and Young aren't gonna translate as well - considering how well they did in college.
 
I guess some people have forgotten what Kubiak did for Plummer in Denver, helping to make a better player out of a guy who was in a bad situation and disliked by some people in Arizona. I expect him to so the same thing for Carr now that he's here. Also, I think the "that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger" thing applies here, so all these years of being knocked on his butt by defenders and coming back for more have given him not just physical toughness but mental persistence. When he gets to the point where he has confidence that his O line is decent and will give him enough time to get things done on a tough drive, I bet he will have that little bit of oomph, so to speak, that gives him an advantage.
 
"And we could go ON AND ON about why/who/what is to blame for 2005. But after 3 years...Carr was among the best in MANY categories. The only one that really beat Carr after 3 was Marino (but go figure, right).'

Why don't you try backing up your posts with facts/sources, instead of BS. I needed 2 pair of boots to read the statements above-- name a few of the 'many categories' and your Marino statement/what is this?
 
"I guess Bush and Young aren't gonna translate as well - considering how well they did in college."

...what is this? your prediction? What does 'how well they did in college' mean? HELL-O--no one gets into the NFL unless they did well in college, but there are no guarantees that 'doing well in college' means a sucessful NFL career...geezzzzzzzz
 
Are ya'll seriously talking about this again? Do you not have anything better to do? Hey, new idea for you negative glass half empty types --- How bout something POSITIVE about someone you Carr haters love.... Try some positive stuff, you might be surprised how you feel when you are done. You all make me tired!

P.S. Can't wait until you are sucking back up....someone keep a Carr basher list so we can gloat!
 
wookiee.jpg
 
You forgot the stat of.... How many receivers the QB had to hit on the back of the helmet. If that don't tell you something then I dunno what will. Saying Carr is a horrible QB is bias, because he isn't. Alex Smith had a horrendous yr. Carr never had anything close to Smith's yet you wanna sit there and say Carr is one of the worst QB's of all time. Get off it man, how can you seriously sit there seeing the big picture home in on Carr and lay the blame on him like that. It's even been stated that receiver's didn't adjust their routes when Carr was in trouble. How successful would Manning be without that aspect of the game. I mean you make it sound like. Oh, it's okay from everybody else to not know what's going on, its Carr's job to cover their asses and make up for their mistakes and if he doesn't he's just a horrible player. Carr hasn't proven to be a great QB, but he hasn't deserved all this bashing. What the hell do you all get out bashing the guy?
 
Before anybody goes taking off on David Carr, people need to remember that especially last season he had no protection due to a pathetic offensive line.
If he has halfway decent protection he'll do just fine in this league.
 
edo783 said:
Out of 31 posts, some 25 have been by the anti-carr crowd. Most post though have been by two trolls and some folks just keep feeding them.
Click to expand...

...try 13 anti-carr threads out of 50 plus but exaggeration has always been a strong trait of the :homer: crowd
 
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