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Clowney, then what?

leebigeztx said:
How many big years did clowney have in college. To say he's anywhere close to those 4 guys in terms of talent is not even being close to objective unless you just started watching football.

Reggie White had 100 tackles when he had 20 sacks. Oh yeah,he was 300lbs ran a 4.6 ish and dominated all the time despite double,triples and chip. Clowney is nowhere in the stratospeher of those guys in terms of talent or production. Hey,that's your opinion though.
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Yeah, I don't get this "yearning" to suck this guy off as the best talent in a decade or whatever when he's clearly a "no show" when the pressure is on him to perform. The guy's last season stunk for what you'd expect out of a top 5 pass rusher, but people already had their minds made up based off of his previous season and mainly because ESPN kept doing these specials on him. It's crazy how so many people still buy into anything on ESPN after the whole Tebow debacle and everything else. ESPN will do or say anything for ratings or to create some sort of story that they can regurgitate over and over. The reality is that Clowney is a weak player. He proved that. He had all the media all over him and he had all eyes on him this season, and when the bright lights shined, he couldn't carry the heavy load and exceed any expectations. He struggled immensely and gave up pretty quickly when things didn't go his way. That is the single worst attribute I can think of in a football player. He doesn't knock down a lot of balls, he doesn't get a lot of FF's and FR's, and he isn't even a dominant pass rusher. He is a physical freak with all types of potential. Great, but so far are hundreds of other guys with a ton of other attributes and better attitudes. Clowney is just freakier physically, and people want him to be something clearly he is not.
 
Say Watt said:
Sorry man, but I quit reading after this part. You're going to have to fix it before the next guy comes along and spits his sprite out all over the computer screen after reading.
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Sounds like another believer.


Well sorry, but that is all that's happening when we're talking about some tall guy who put up 4 sacks and wasn't a game changer consistently. I don't even know why this has been a discussion much less a debate. Hell, it sounds just as silly as it was when I listened to guys make excuses for Mario for years. Mario didn't look like a game changer either when he came out of college, and yet people ignored the signs then too. But at least Mario had like 12 sacks or something like that his Senior season even though it was done in like 3 or 4 games. We're talking about some guy who was talked about as a potential Heisman and he had an average season. Not even a real good one. And then there are tons of reports about his attitude and personality questions and his associations of entourages.The only reason why this guy is even relevant is because of ESPN's constant talk about this guy and people are definitely sucking it up. But it definitely isn't because of what he did on the field this year in a real games or when the big moments took place. He is quite possibly the biggest and most over hyped guy entering the draft since Brian Bozworth.
 
steelbtexan said:
I didn't say he has the numbers. I just said he has that kind of rare ability.

4.48 at 265 and is only 21 yrs old. He will easily be 280-290 at 25 and be able to add the strength that's currently missing. IF Fitzgerald signs off on Clowney's work ethic then he should be the pick. But due to the Manziel Aggy done good thingy the Texans will probably blow the pick. You and I will be unhappy, but Lord Bills will probably jizz all over himself.
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What rare ability do you speak of? 4.53 40, less than von miller. 7.27 3 cone, less than every elite pass rush prospect over the last 8 yrs. 37 inch vertical, again, less than mario,smith,miller,watt, and a whole slew of pass rush prospects. We haven't even mention game tape and production. He's a linear athlete. If you want your pass rusher to run in a straight line,then that's you. I don't see anything rare and special about stephan hill of pass rushers.
 
leebigeztx said:
stephan hill of pass rushers.
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23683-Ashton-Kutcher-burn-gif-95QB.gif
 
leebigeztx said:
What rare ability do you speak of?
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Read. Learn.

The Notebook: Retired NFL defensive end put the South Carolina pass rusher under the microscope. He's got some advice for the Houston Texans: Take Clowney

No offense, but I'm more interested in what a 7 year NFL veteran has to say about it. Or Bill Polian, who said if the psychological testing comes out okay he's the guy, "Clowney won't make it past #2".

So I guess he's a no talent fraud who's going to be misdrafted at the top of the first by the professionals -- if only they followed DraftTwitter they'd have known. Hopefully the Falcons morons trade up for JdC and makes us all happy. :rake:
 
I don't see any way ATL moves up again considering the Julio deal didn't put them over the top like they planned and now have a lot of issues.
 
Allstar said:
I don't see any way ATL moves up again considering the Julio deal didn't put them over the top like they planned and now have a lot of issues.
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Their main issues are in the trenches on both sides. I could see them moving up if they absolutely had to have Clowney or Robinson.
 
bah007 said:
Their main issues are in the trenches on both sides. I could see them moving up if they absolutely had to have Clowney or Robinson.
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It's possible, but they are mighty thin pretty much everywhere. Don't know if they're in a position to give too much up.
 
Texecutioner said:
Yeah, I don't get this "yearning" to suck this guy off as the best talent in a decade or whatever when he's clearly a "no show" when the pressure is on him to perform. The guy's last season stunk for what you'd expect out of a top 5 pass rusher, but people already had their minds made up based off of his previous season and mainly because ESPN kept doing these specials on him. It's crazy how so many people still buy into anything on ESPN after the whole Tebow debacle and everything else. ESPN will do or say anything for ratings or to create some sort of story that they can regurgitate over and over. The reality is that Clowney is a weak player. He proved that. He had all the media all over him and he had all eyes on him this season, and when the bright lights shined, he couldn't carry the heavy load and exceed any expectations. He struggled immensely and gave up pretty quickly when things didn't go his way. That is the single worst attribute I can think of in a football player. He doesn't knock down a lot of balls, he doesn't get a lot of FF's and FR's, and he isn't even a dominant pass rusher. He is a physical freak with all types of potential. Great, but so far are hundreds of other guys with a ton of other attributes and better attitudes. Clowney is just freakier physically, and people want him to be something clearly he is not.
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Not buying the ESPN hype.

Just understand his situation last yr.

Clowney is the definition of untapped potential. 4.48/265 Lbs/21 yrs old are the main numbers. He hasn't even matured physically yet, much less mentally.
 
leebigeztx said:
What rare ability do you speak of? 4.53 40, less than von miller. 7.27 3 cone, less than every elite pass rush prospect over the last 8 yrs. 37 inch vertical, again, less than mario,smith,miller,watt, and a whole slew of pass rush prospects. We haven't even mention game tape and production. He's a linear athlete. If you want your pass rusher to run in a straight line,then that's you. I don't see anything rare and special about stephan hill of pass rushers.
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I see a quick twitch athlete that can convert power into speed. Who is only 21 yrs old and has much room to improve. If Fitzgerald signs off on his work ethic then Clowney should be the pick.

I still come back to Clowney only being 21 yrs old. I want either physical freak in this draft. Clowney/Robinson. No to the TB fanboys.
 
steelbtexan said:
I see a quick twitch athlete that can convert power into speed. Who is only 21 yrs old and has much room to improve. If Fitzgerald signs off on his work ethic then Clowney should be the pick.

I still come back to Clowney only being 21 yrs old. I want either physical freak in this draft. Clowney/Robinson. No to the TB fanboys.
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I don't know Clowney personally so can't speak to his ethic and attitude.

However I am not going to bet 1:1 on a light bulb coming on if those things aren't already evident.

Hope the FO is doing a LOT of digging.
 
kiwitexansfan said:
I don't know Clowney personally so can't speak to his ethic and attitude.

However I am not going to bet 1:1 on a light bulb coming on if those things aren't already evident.

Hope the FO is doing a LOT of digging.
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You and I don't know Clowney.

But Craig Fitzgerald know his work ethic better than almost anybody.
 
Playoffs said:
Read. Learn.

The Notebook: Retired NFL defensive end put the South Carolina pass rusher under the microscope. He's got some advice for the Houston Texans: Take Clowney

No offense, but I'm more interested in what a 7 year NFL veteran has to say about it. Or Bill Polian, who said if the psychological testing comes out okay he's the guy, "Clowney won't make it past #2".

So I guess he's a no talent fraud who's going to be misdrafted at the top of the first by the professionals -- if only they followed DraftTwitter they'd have known. Hopefully the Falcons morons trade up for JdC and makes us all happy. :rake:
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That was a great read but I came away with a slightly different take than what the author intended.

If we take Clowney, I'll be OK with it because of his potential and his upside. But I'm going to be very, very worried because I'm not going to expect him to live up to it.
 
steelbtexan said:
You and I don't know Clowney.

But Craig Fitzgerald know his work ethic better than almost anybody.
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And the Ole Ball Coach (Spurrier) knows him better than that. Did you hear his comments on :clown:ey ? It wasn't a ringing endorsement , that's for sure. If that guy cant back him up , no way I can touch the guy.
 
steelbtexan said:
I see a quick twitch athlete that can convert power into speed. Who is only 21 yrs old and has much room to improve. If Fitzgerald signs off on his work ethic then Clowney should be the pick.

I still come back to Clowney only being 21 yrs old. I want either physical freak in this draft. Clowney/Robinson. No to the TB fanboys.
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Manny Lawson was a physical freak,but what has he done in the nfl? He's such a freak, he had 10 sacks as a rookie and hasn't smelled that since. Please guide me to the game where I can see this speed to power you speak of. I have at least 8 games on dvr. I'll wait.
 
Corrosion said:
And the Ole Ball Coach (Spurrier) knows him better than that. Did you hear his comments on :clown:ey ? It wasn't a ringing endorsement , that's for sure. If that guy cant back him up , no way I can touch the guy.
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21 reps would do it for me if I where strength coach for the most physical freak in a decade.
 
Playoffs said:
Read. Learn.

The Notebook: Retired NFL defensive end put the South Carolina pass rusher under the microscope. He's got some advice for the Houston Texans: Take Clowney

No offense, but I'm more interested in what a 7 year NFL veteran has to say about it. Or Bill Polian, who said if the psychological testing comes out okay he's the guy, "Clowney won't make it past #2".

So I guess he's a no talent fraud who's going to be misdrafted at the top of the first by the professionals -- if only they followed DraftTwitter they'd have known. Hopefully the Falcons morons trade up for JdC and makes us all happy. :rake:
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Okay, using your sources own words...

One of the problems I saw watching Clowney's film was that he did not play outside linebacker in a 3-4 at South Carolina. Instead, he was a 4-3 defensive end who, while obviously strong and powerful, ran around blocks waaaaayyyyyy too much versus the run. Understand this: He also made a ton of big plays running around blocks in those games as well.

The problem for me is that Clowney would need a lot of coaching up on how to play the run in a fundamentally sound manner that doesn't put the rest of the defense at risk if he were drafted as an end by an NFL team that uses the 4-3 defense.

When you run around run blocks in the NFL, that tends to open up huge lanes in the area which you just vacated. You will also likely be getting blocked by an offensive tackle who is at least as good or better than the best left tackle you ever faced in college. That usually equals fewer plays made and more plays giving up big yardage.
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Add this weakness - okay lets call it inexperience - against the run to the fact that he'll have to cover as a 3-4 OLB, another area where he has little, if any experience, and we would be weakening, not strengthening the defense.

I just see teams double-teaming J.J. and running right past Clowney. (...will he pursue the play or watch it go past like he did in college last year?) Why bother passing against the two best pass rushers in football when you can "stay on schedule" by running the ball?

I'm not arguing that he's not a physical freak, because he is. And perhaps he can be coached up to be something special one day but right now Clowney seems like a one-trick pony.

Is that really where we need to spend our 1-1??



 
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Corrosion said:
And the Ole Ball Coach (Spurrier) knows him better than that. Did you hear his comments on :clown:ey ? It wasn't a ringing endorsement , that's for sure. If that guy cant back him up , no way I can touch the guy.
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What did you think of O'Leary's comments on Bortles?

I wouldn't call it a ringing endorsement either, but it doesn't mean we should steer away from him because of it. We're selecting these guys based on potential. "Lack of motivation" could very well be the result of bad coaching.
 
Corrosion said:
And the Ole Ball Coach (Spurrier) knows him better than that. Did you hear his comments on :clown:ey ? It wasn't a ringing endorsement , that's for sure. If that guy cant back him up , no way I can touch the guy.
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Steve Spurrier compared Connor Shaw to Russell Wilson. Let's take what he says with a grain of salt.
 
thunderkyss said:
What did you think of O'Leary's comments on Bortles?

I wouldn't call it a ringing endorsement either, but it doesn't mean we should steer away from him because of it. We're selecting these guys based on potential. "Lack of motivation" could very well be the result of bad coaching.
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O'Leary did say that Bortles was there at 7AM every morning and didn't leave until 10PM. O'Leary did say that Bortles did everything you could expect and want in off field preparations from your QB.
 
thunderkyss said:
What did you think of O'Leary's comments on Bortles?

I wouldn't call it a ringing endorsement either, but it doesn't mean we should steer away from him because of it. We're selecting these guys based on potential. "Lack of motivation" could very well be the result of bad coaching.
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I didn't read O'Leary's comments that way at all. To me he basically said "franchise QB" gets thrown around far too much and he wasn't going to perpetuate it and then gave his analysis of Bortles being an excellent prospect.
 
infantrycak said:
I didn't read O'Leary's comments that way at all. To me he basically said "franchise QB" gets thrown around far too much and he wasn't going to perpetuate it and then gave his analysis of Bortles being an excellent prospect.
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That's the way I took the Spurrier response to the "work ethic" questions being raised. It's a goofy question that gets thrown around like that "franchise QB" tag. Not worth responding to if you watched the kid play.

“Even though his production this year wasn’t near what it was last year, he had two or three guys waiting on him just about every play,” Spurrier said. “His run defense was very good, though, and he chased down a bunch of guys and made tackles. His sacks - he had to run around two or three guys just about every game. I don’t think teams will quite do that in the NFL, but we’ll have to wait and see.”

“He was OK. It wasn’t like Marcus Lattimore, you know, every player is a little different,” Spurrier said. “His work habits are pretty good, they’re not quite like Lattimore, maybe Stephon Gilmore, Melvin Ingram, some of those guys, but when the ball is snapped he’s got something no one else has.”
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thunderkyss said:
That's the way I took the Spurrier response to the "work ethic" questions being raised. It's a goofy question that gets thrown around like that "franchise QB" tag. Not worth responding to if you watched the kid play.

​
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Spurrier said:
“Even though his production this year wasn’t near what it was last year, he had two or three guys waiting on him just about every play,” Spurrier said. “His run defense was very good, though, and he chased down a bunch of guys and made tackles. His sacks - he had to run around two or three guys just about every game. I don’t think teams will quite do that in the NFL, but we’ll have to wait and see.”
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Teams definitely won't do that in the NFL if they also have to figure out how to stop Watt. I've slowly come around to thinking that Clowney is the guy and that if you put Clowney in there opposite Watt then you instantly upgrade your pass rush, get JJo and KJ back looking good, and make Mercilus path to the QB also much clearer.

Clowney "re-activates" pieces we already have on the team.

I just don't see how the Texans can "not" do that. Get your QB at 33 or sign Cassel or some other scrub to keep the seat warm and get him next year if they don't like any of these guys available in the 2nd round.
 
ObsiWan said:
Okay, using your sources own words...

Add this weakness - okay lets call it inexperience - against the run to the fact that he'll have to cover as a 3-4 OLB, another area where he has little, if any experience, and we would be weakening, not strengthening the defense.

I just see teams double-teaming J.J. and running right past Clowney. (...will he pursue the play or watch it go past like he did in college last year?) Why bother passing against the two best pass rushers in football when you can "stay on schedule" by running the ball?

I'm not arguing that he's not a physical freak, because he is. And perhaps he can be coached up to be something special one day but right now Clowney seems like a one-trick pony.

Is that really where we need to spend our 1-1??

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Dissagree that Clowney isn't good against the run. He was the best edge setter in college.
 
ObsiWan said:
...Why bother passing against the two best pass rushers in football when you can "stay on schedule" by running the ball?
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I don't agree with the presumption that our run defense will become so bad that teams won't need to pass in 2014. Clowney is raw. He has one move, and that move needs to be refined. He needs to learn how to use his hands. His fundamentals need to be coached up. If he has the correct personality traits, he will get better.

The kid is disruptive. Disruption = production.
 
ObsiWan said:
Okay, using your sources own words...

Add this weakness - okay lets call it inexperience - against the run to the fact that he'll have to cover as a 3-4 OLB, another area where he has little, if any experience, and we would be weakening, not strengthening the defense.

I just see teams double-teaming J.J. and running right past Clowney. (...will he pursue the play or watch it go past like he did in college last year?) Why bother passing against the two best pass rushers in football when you can "stay on schedule" by running the ball?

I'm not arguing that he's not a physical freak, because he is. And perhaps he can be coached up to be something special one day but right now Clowney seems like a one-trick pony.

Is that really where we need to spend our 1-1??
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No. There are just so many ways to go, but right now, I have us taking Khalil Mack at 1-1.
 
Corrosion said:
And the Ole Ball Coach (Spurrier) knows him better than that. Did you hear his comments on :clown:ey ? It wasn't a ringing endorsement , that's for sure. If that guy cant back him up , no way I can touch the guy.
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Spurrier is just pi**ed that Clowney put his family before his team.
 
leebigeztx said:
Manny Lawson was a physical freak,but what has he done in the nfl? He's such a freak, he had 10 sacks as a rookie and hasn't smelled that since. Please guide me to the game where I can see this speed to power you speak of. I have at least 8 games on dvr. I'll wait.
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The Tennessee game against a very good Richardson. Bowl game against Wisconscin where he was double teamed a lot and was still effective. Any number of games in 2012.

Comparing Clowney to Manny is just hyperbole. They play nothing alike.
 
steelbtexan said:
Spurrier is just pi**ed that Clowney put his family before his team.
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Probably because Spurrier has been a college HC for 24 years and how many times do you think he had a player of Clowney's ability? And then of those guys how many of them completely phoned it in in their final season?

You spout this off repeatedly as if it's a positive attribute.
 
If you accept that Clowney phoned it in this past year, or rather if you accept that O'Brien accepts this, doesn't it take him completely off our board? O'Brien has tried to make a point about taking the individual mindset out and to focus more on the team.
 
bah007 said:
Probably because Spurrier has been a college HC for 24 years and how many times do you think he had a player of Clowney's ability? And then of those guys how many of them completely phoned it in in their final season?

You spout this off repeatedly as if it's a positive attribute.
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Phoned it in by playing nearly 80% of defensive snaps?
 
bah007 said:
Well with all his athletic talent, Clowney's fans need an excuse for the huge drop in his production last year. That hail mary attempt seems to work for steelb.
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It's called watching the tape. It's not difficult and is actually fun!
 
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