Carr's latest excuses?

[thegr8fan]

starting at 1st and 10 on their 27 and ONLY 2:00 remaining, there is NO WAY they call a single running play, much less 2 of them to start their way down field. Sorry Lucky, but thems the facts. There is a whole different mentality to a team moving downfield with 2:00 remaining than one with 2:38 and a couple of timeouts AND a 2:00 warning.

all of which doesn't negate the fact that as a franchise QB with more than 3 seasons under his belt Carr should have KNOWN to not run out of bounds in that particular set of circumstances. Yes it is minor. But its the minor things that makes the difference between a win and a loss sometimes.

Personally, I think I am really more trying to say this though, Carr just doesn't have the 'smarts' to be running a football team. It is just that simple. That play simply proves it. Which is really more my point than all the woulda, coulda, shoulda stuff. If it had been a RB, or WR and they ran out of bounds instead of staying inbounds and letting the clock run, this board would be calling them just what they deserve to be called, simple minded, or at best inexperienced. Yet golden boy Carr gets yet another free pass. I just don't understand that at all.

Carr made a mistake that could have quite simply caused us to lose that game. It is just that simple. And them's the facts.

 

[Lucky]

starting at 1st and 10 on their 27 and ONLY 2:00 remaining, there is NO WAY they call a single running play, much less 2 of them to start their way down field. Sorry Lucky, but thems the facts...

Now I know what :brickwall is for.

gr8, Crennel ran those plays to take that time off the clock. He ran once again at 1:32 left.

1-10-HST 39 (1:32) (Shotgun) 31-W.Green up the middle to HST 38 for 1 yard (99-R.Smith).

The Browns still had a timeout in their back pocket when Showtime deflected Dilfer's 4th down pass. They wasted way more time themselves than Carr did running out of bounds. What does that tell you? The Browns were trying to make sure the Texans didn't get another shot. They never wanted the extra time that you think Carr gave them.

 

[infantrycak]

not to speak for Kaiser, but what Carr did wrong is run out of bounds for no gain and stopping the clock. He should have slid or went down INBOUNDS and let the clock continue to run.

See, I just view that as an "I am actively trying to find something (with minutes, hours, days of hindsight, or even that very second with a mind already trying to find things) to criticize" analysis. For an analogy--it was just funny how last year when DD broke off a 40 + yd run it was (a) only because the Titans let him do so even though Fisher said it wasn't true and (b) more to the point, selfish because he should have downed it short of the TD and ate up the clock. Carr was trying to get a 1st down with his feet (something he has done many times) or at least avoid the sack and get the ball closer to a 1st. I'd invite anyone to look back at the last three games and tell us this is really a below average QB play (there are some out there--you can keep your anti-Carr position--this just isn't one of them IMO). The play-by-play shows this wasn't the difference in time pressuring the Browns.

 

[thegr8fan]

the only critique of Carr on that remark is that he isn't smart enough to do the right thing in that situation. I would make the same remark for any QB in any game with the exact same set of circumstances. Some of you Carr lovers allow his 'golden halo' to blind your usually non-partial analysis. The smart thing for ANY QB to do in that situation is to stay inbounds. It is just that simple.

and Lucky, your still clinging to a straw for a lifeboat. The reason the Browns HAD 1 timeout left is because they got the 2:00 stoppage and didn't need to use it before hand. Was their intent to run enough time off the clock so the Texans couldn't come back and kick yet another FG, if needed to tie it up YES. That is called smart football. Amazingly enough, my contention is that CARR should have been doing the same thing and NOT went out of bounds. Why is it that you can see that the Browns were doing the smart thing, and Carr wasn't? Why is that such a huge monumentally challenging thing to observe simply due to the uniform they are wearing.

 

[infantrycak]

the only critique of Carr on that remark is that he isn't smart enough to do the right thing in that situation. I would make the same remark for any QB in any game with the exact same set of circumstances. Some of you Carr lovers allow his 'golden halo' to blind your usually non-partial analysis. The smart thing for ANY QB to do in that situation is to stay inbounds. It is just that simple.

It may be that simple that it is the smart thing to do, but I don't think it is that simple that the critque gets made. I don't know if you are refering to me as a Carr lover, but IMO that looked like a play a lot of QB's wouldn't have had called for them because they aren't that mobile or would have taken for a sack behind the line of scrimmage and only a few would have been head's up enough to take as a sack and stay in bounds. I agree the smartest play would have been to slide in bounds even if it was a sack--I just disagree that it was a below average QB call. Look over my break down of the last three games and tell me where Carr should have garnered more fault. That's an honest inquiry for anyone--where should Carr or anyone else have been blamed more or less--feedback is appreciated.

 

[thegr8fan]

uh infantry, I have to say I have no idea what your question above is. I have read it a couple of times now and I know your trying to ask something, I just can't clarify what exactly it is.

 

[Lucky]

Why is it that you can see that the Browns were doing the smart thing, and Carr wasn't? Why is that such a huge monumentally challenging thing to observe simply due to the uniform they are wearing.

Because the Texans could not have run the clock down. It wasn't possible without getting another 1st down. Make that 2 more 1st downs. I think it's safe to say that had the Browns picked up 1 more 1st down & got into FG range, it would have been the Texans using their own TOs. And then you would have wanted as much time on that clock as possible.

See, there are no absolutes in that scenario. Furthermore, if Capers & Pendry actually wanted to burn clock at the 3:00 mark, they would have ran Davis up the middle. And they certainly would not have passed 1 down later. You want David to employ a strategy the coaches weren't following. You're not looking at the highway, because you can't take your eyes off the Carr in front of you.

 

[infantrycak]

uh infantry, I have to say I have no idea what your question above is. I have read it a couple of times now and I know your trying to ask something, I just can't clarify what exactly it is.

That was ambiguous. There was an implied question of whether you were refering to me as a Carr lover. There was a more direct question of identifying individual bad plays by Carr. It refered to this thread:

infantry's Passing Break Down

 

[thegr8fan]

IMO that looked like a play a lot of QB's wouldn't have had called for them because they aren't that mobile or would have taken for a sack behind the line of scrimmage

I never said it was a smart call by the OC. It was actually a dumb call, IMHO. But if he had called yet another sweep or play action the crowd would have lynched them. Personally any running play at that point in the game would have been the smart call, IMHO.

Look over my break down of the last three games and tell me where Carr should have garnered more fault.

I have been pretty quiet about critiqueing Carr lately. But the same old faults that he has had since 2002 are still there. Most of them mental ones. I don't think Carr is the worst QB in the league, although this year he is mighty close to that. But I also think he has as much blame for the teams failures as the other parts of the team that aren't working, like the O-line. Most of Carrs faults, IMHO, are mental errors or poor decisions. Same as they have always been with him. Whos fault that these have not been corrected, who the heck knows. We fired Palmer and that didn't change alot. So what is the fix for Carr? That is the million dollar question. I just am not going to give Carr a free pass for the mistakes that he makes. That play being one of them.

He did make some pass's this last game that made me see a glimmer of hope for him. Course in the first half he was still gun shy and running when he didn't have too. But I actually will him a couple of 'Wows' to go along with his playing in the last game. The pass to Gaffney being one of them. Mathis for a TD. Bradford dropped some that a rookie would have caught, not Carrs fault. But most of those happened in the second half, after someone showed Carr at halftime that he didn't have a pass rush at all and needed to stay in the pocket and do the job of a QB, IMHO.

Some of it is completely on the coach's and their play calling. That sweep where he runs 5 yards back and 3 yards over to hand the ball to DD is the dumbest play in the book for our personel, IMHO. And usually resulted in no gain. So we lined up and ran it again, and again, and again. ***** play calling.

there are more than a few games that the coaching staff of the Texans have demonstrated that they have no concept of clock management, IMHO.

this started with me simply saying that the smart thing in that situation was for Carr to take a down inbounds. It was the smart thing to do. That wasn't meant to be a Carr bashing, it was meant to be an opinion on how to play smart football. Which is mostly mental, and I simply don't think Carr has the smarts to do those kinds of things. Heck it is still year 4 and someone had to actually tell him to throw the ball away instead of running out of bounds with it for a sack. I mean does someone have to tell him EVERYTHING that he should do correctly BEFORE he does it?

 

[thegr8fan]

no infantry I don't class you as a Carr lover. Usually your critiques are fair and unbiased.

and Lucky, I was typing my reply as you were typing yours. And in it listed a run by Davis and the Coach's lack of clock management.

individual plays by Carr that could be critiqued in the last game, most in the first half, I won't bother with. We won, I am perfectly OK with that. I just think that there were some things that could have been done by Carr, and the Coach's far better.

minor things in the grand scheme but sometimes makes all the difference between a win and a loss.

 

[infantrycak]

Most of Carrs faults, IMHO, are mental errors or poor decisions. Same as they have always been with him. Whos fault that these have not been corrected, who the heck knows. We fired Palmer and that didn't change alot. So what is the fix for Carr? That is the million dollar question. I just am not going to give Carr a free pass for the mistakes that he makes.

IMO there are a lot of mental mistakes going on (Carr's included) and for a Caperism, poor execution. There is also a lot of pre-judgment, knee-jerk, totally incorrect (as aj has pointed out over the last three years, run run pass, analysis) and that is why I have started trying to look back at every passing play. The Carr haters and Carr lovers here haven't wanted to jump into the actual analysis pool by providing any feedback on that breakdown. Absent any commentary, I take both extreme sides (viewing myself as we haven't seen the best of Carr but I don't really know how high his best is) as not really being interested in discussion. Frankly, the we suck threads get pretty boring--actually discussing players and plays in a little more depth might keep it interesting until the next hope of a winning season. Either way, I will be in my seats, as will you, Lucky, aj, etc.

minor things in the grand scheme but sometimes makes all the difference between a win and a loss.

And that says it IMO. 11 guys on offense. On a good day 60 opportunities. Right now each guy is having 2-3 bad plays. 25 bad plays on offense kills a team.

 

[thegr8fan]

I'll try and come back for your play by play analysis for the next game infantry. I do enjoy the reads. It is hard during the game to make notes to myself on time of play verses things I see happening live. I don't want to get into Capers habit of jotting notes to myself DURING the game, LOL. But I do enjoy the play by play breakdown you give. As pointed out by aj, sometime seeing it live and then on tape to merge the right perspective is the best analysis, and I would have to agree with that.

I had a conversation with one of our tailgate crew who was convinced that Chester Pitts was killing our O-line and was the whole problem/breakdown point. Sometimes I wonder if we are watching the same game. generalizations get passed around and sometimes become urban legends and won't go away.

Next game we can critique the play by play though, I especially like that also.

 

[infantrycak]

It is hard during the game to make notes to myself on time of play verses things I see happening live. ... As pointed out by aj, sometime seeing it live and then on tape to merge the right perspective is the best analysis, and I would have to agree with that.

I try to just enjoy the games, but because we lack the game film, I am going to try to start concentrating more on the WR's since they are out of the game film. That is the big piece missing from reviewing on DVR. If only we could lobby for a fan game-film review with some die-hards.

generalizations get passed around and sometimes become urban legends and won't go away.

That is exactly what made me start looking at each play. Lot's of generalizations get thrown around--for example lately that the pass protection is good, or at least improved. Well, looking back at the clock, 90% of the passes are out in under 2 seconds. That isn't normal. Most NFL O's it is more like 60-75% out in that time. That's not so much good OL work as scheme changes and those may really hamper the O. We'll see how it works this coming week.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

I try to just enjoy the games, but because we lack the game film, I am going to try to start concentrating more on the WR's since they are out of the game film. That is the big piece missing from reviewing on DVR. If only we could lobby for a fan game-film review with some die-hards.



That is exactly what made me start looking at each play. Lot's of generalizations get thrown around--for example lately that the pass protection is good, or at least improved. Well, looking back at the clock, 90% of the passes are out in under 2 seconds. That isn't normal. Most NFL O's it is more like 60-75% out in that time. That's not so much good OL work as scheme changes and those may really hamper the O. We'll see how it works this coming week.

I tried to watch more of the WR's this past game and it was difficult even then so. But every time I saw DC roll out I did watch the WR"s and it was not so much that they were not getting open, it looked like they were either going through the motions or the DB's knew where they were running their route. It appears that if the Defense is not tricked by the roll out, the play is dead before it starts.

 

[infantrycak]

I tried to watch more of the WR's this past game and it was difficult even then so. But every time I saw DC roll out I did watch the WR"s and it was not so much that they were not getting open, it looked like they were either going through the motions or the DB's knew where they were running their route. It appears that if the Defense is not tricked by the roll out, the play is dead before it starts.

It is hard to tell for sure from the game tape (and hard for me to remember from the game specifically), but it appears folks need to remember even though there are often 4 receivers on the field, either 3 WR's and 1 TE or 2 WR's and 2 TE's, at least two and sometimes 3 of them are running routes on the opposite side of the field from the designed roll out and thus pretty much not legitimate options for receptions--they are just dragging coverage.

 

[SESupergenius]

You're foolish to think Carr had not shown his abilities with this horrendous line that gets easily pushed back into his pocket with only 4 guys rushing and a coaching staff that has pulled the reins in on this offense for many seasons now. What options do we have if we let Carr go? Draft another highly touted QB just so this line can tear him to shreads. I doubt very seriously that a guy like Leinart would stay upright for long in this system. Should we go ahead and let Carr go just like The Bucc did with Steve Young or the Falcons did with Farve?
Should we bring in some other veteran QB to compete with Banks, who pretty much did no better than Carr when he was in.

Trust me on this one, the way we are losing there are not going to be many players that we bring in that we won't have to overpay. Book it.

 

[the wonger need food]

Rack'im

 

[SESupergenius]

Comparing David Carr to Steve Young is ridiculous. That is like comparing a Yugo to a Rolls Royce. Young had success in BYU, and the USFL before his time with the Bucs. He was drafted by Tampa Bay in the supplemental draft and started ONE YEAR for the Bucs, the worst team in the league at that time. He played ONE YEAR, Carr has now started OVER THREE YEARS for the Texans. Oh and then I guess there is the fact that Steve Young holds numerable NFL passing records as well as a Super Bowl ring. But sure, David Carr = Steve Young.....ok whatever....

Actually Young played about a season and a half with the Buccs, so really get your facts straight. And he's never had a QB rating over 80 in the seasons he's played out of college before he went to the niners. He spent 3 seasons before he went to the niners and did squat. So you knew Young was going to be a Hall of Famer coming out of BYU and playing for Fresno? I guess you knew that Farve was going to be a Superbowl champ too when he was drafted by the Falcons. Fact of the matter is, Young spent time on very bad teams, he couldn't elevate those teams. Sound familiar?

Comparing David Carr to Brett Favre is pure sacrilege. Favre, due to Glanville's infinite wisdom, never got a shot with the Falcons. The moment Favre was given a chance at starting he delivered a beleaguered franchise from the doldrums and eventually led them to multiple Super Bowl and playoff appearances. Oh yeah, and I guess there is the fact that he has won multiple MVPs, led the NFL in passing and that little thing called a Super Bowl ring. But sure, David Carr = Brett Favre....ok whatever....

Carr threw 3500 his 3rd year, farve was close to that. Farve didn't win a Superbowl until his 7th year in the league. Farve didn't have to start with an expansion team. I'm not saying that Carr=Farve, but I am saying that both Farve and Young's first few years are very comparable to Carr's. You think Young would still have been as good on the Buccs? NOT!!

Please everyone stop making excuses. Carr has been given a chance to show his mettle and has failed to do so in over 3 years of starting for an NFL team. Other teams would have jettisoned him like an escape pod over Tatooine long ago. We showed love, faith and patience in the past 3 years. Now its time for production. Put up or shut up time. Cowboy Up. Whatever tired cliche/buzz term you want to use. He has failed.

What chance has Carr been given? A merry-go-round offensive line, an expansion team with cast off players, weak drafts and sub-par coaching. Sure buddy he's had ALL the breaks in the world. Step back a bit and focus and what we have as a team as far as players.

He lacks so many of the attributes needed to lead a team into the playoffs and to the Super Bowl. The only attribute he is bringing to the Texans at the moment are pretty boy good looks and a warm body. I will give Carr one positive remark at the moment and that he can take an **** whoopin. That is for sure. But the good QBs avoid them like the plague. Whether its his fault, coaching's fault, or the OL fault, he is shellshocked, has no confidence, does not have his team's confidence and is easily one of the 5 worst QBs in the league. But go ahead adn extend his contract. I am sure the guys in the locker room will love to hear that Carr is getting Pro Bowl money when its time for their own contracts to get reupped. If Carr is resigned you may as well get used to A.Johnson playing for someone else here in a year or two as well.....but at least we will have those great HEB commercials...Oh and please let me know what day Carr comes by and mows your lawn because its obvious he is doing something on the side for you to hold such blind misguided allegiance to him...

So we jettison Carr to bring in another QB to ge "shellshocked"?? Nice thinking. If we let the team run by you then we'd have an endless revolving door of QB's that go straight to the Ward with fright. Nice.

BTW I am a season ticket holder so I guess I take it more personally when this inferior product is put on the field year after year and were expected to fork out the big bread for tickets.

You don't have much on any other hardcore fan. I spent over 250 bucks for DirectTV just to watch this crud. And usually I go to 1 game a year, that'll add up to over $500 spent just to see one game. So please, don't belittle fans that are not ticket holders.

 

[infantrycak]

Comparing David Carr to Steve Young is ridiculous. That is like comparing a Yugo to a Rolls Royce. Young had success in BYU, and the USFL before his time with the Bucs. He was drafted by Tampa Bay in the supplemental draft and started ONE YEAR for the Bucs, the worst team in the league at that time. He played ONE YEAR, Carr has now started OVER THREE YEARS for the Texans. Oh and then I guess there is the fact that Steve Young holds numerable NFL passing records as well as a Super Bowl ring. But sure, David Carr = Steve Young.....ok whatever....

Good lord, can people understand a comparison about one thing, i.e. playing for a crud team and the possibility of going on to greater things, is not a declaration of total equality. A response to the the actual point might be something like--fact is Young had it far easier and had much longer to develop than Carr. He basically sat one year in Tampa and then started one year before getting shipped off to San Francisco to sit and learn for four years behind Joe Montana. You're right, it is silly to compare the bonsai growth he went thru to Carr's trial by fire.

You have put a lot of effort into your posts about Carr, how about going back to the last game and identifying some specific plays where he performed below average under the circumstances?

 

[tsip]

Good lord, can people understand a comparison about one thing, i.e. playing for a crud team and the possibility of going on to greater things, is not a declaration of total equality. A response to the the actual point might be something like--fact is Young had it far easier and had much longer to develop than Carr. He basically sat one year in Tampa and then started one year before getting shipped off to San Francisco to sit and learn for four years behind Joe Montana. You're right, it is silly to compare the bonsai growth he went thru to Carr's trial by fire.

You have put a lot of effort into your posts about Carr, how about going back to the last game and identifying some specific plays where he performed below average under the circumstances?

...good post! IMO, we won't know what we have in Carr until we put some good players around him and get him a coach that understands the problem and has a clue how to correct them. In other words, we need to take all the excuses away and see what Carr can or can't do--we need to know!!!!!!

 

[infantrycak]

Oh and if you want facts I could start linking stat pages but well keep it simple:

Actually what I was looking for was something other than stats. Those don't reflect things like Bradford catching 1 in 4 passes thrown to him last week. What I was looking for was a suggestion of which plays from the last game as an example, were below average QB play.

Dude throws for 138yards last Sunday and people seem to be happy....that about sums it all up for me

I'm certainly not happy at all with that. But after looking closely at the last 3 games, I don't see where that gets laid primarily at Carr's feet but would certainly invite an explanation why it should.

 

[Vinny]

I'm not a big Carr fan myself. I have watched him play in over 50 starts and I don't see any intangibles that make me go "wow" this guy is something else. I see very wooden play, poor decision making, little ability to manage the game, poor pocket presence, and a guy who has never put the team on his back and taken over games.

Consider this....As fans of this team, our high point in this franchise is when we won 3 of 4 games against quality opponents in 2003. We pushed New England to the brink of a loss if not for Brady managing another come from beind victory in the last moments of that game and going on to win 3 of 4 games where we beat Buffalo and then when we beat the Panthers who eventually went to the Super Bowl that year. Who was our Quarterback in those three games? Tony Banks, that's who.

 

[the wonger need food]

These two camps will always be divided. The Carr apologists will continue to find excuses for his poor play and the Carr haters will find fault in everything he does.

I'll speak for the "hater" camp. The boy just does not have "it". He has played 1 great half of football in over 50 starts (a loss against Minnesota last season) and aside from that 30 minutes has never shown us that he has what it takes to be a great, or even good NFL QB. And obviously his stats support this argument.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

While I probably have not used the same tone or have the opinion that Carr is a total spare, Honeymoon brings up a basic point that I have made in a couple of threads. Teams don't give QBs with Carr's winning percetage or stats 50 much less 60 games (year's end) of uncontested "loyality" no matter his draft position.

 

[infantrycak]

These two camps will always be divided. The Carr apologists will continue to find excuses for his poor play and the Carr haters will find fault in everything he does.

There is a third camp which is attempting to fairly judge each player including Carr. IMO we don't really know what we have in Carr. He hasn't demonstrated himself as an elite QB, but IMO he hasn't been developed properly or put into a situation such that we could see what he would do on a NFL quality offense like other QB's get to develop in. As ArlingtonTexan said in another post, that is my single greatest criticism of this administration and why I want them gone--they have spent 4 years and $30 or so mil and have failed to build a team so that Carr can be judged adequately. If this administration had put together a team and O so we could conclude David Carr is no better than or only a poor man's Jake Plummer then criticism would be fair. They haven't done that.

 

[Vinny]

There is a third camp which is attempting to fairly judge each player including Carr. IMO we don't really know what we have in Carr. He hasn't demonstrated himself as an elite QB, but IMO he hasn't been developed properly or put into a situation such that we could see what he would do on a NFL quality offense like other QB's get to develop in. As ArlingtonTexan said in another post, that is my single greatest criticism of this administration and why I want them gone--they have spent 4 years and $30 or so mil and have failed to build a team so that Carr can be judged adequately. If this administration had put together a team and O so we could conclude David Carr is no better than or only a poor man's Jake Plummer then criticism would be fair. They haven't done that.

While I'm not sold on Carr and may not be as patient as this middle camp is....its a fair point. Even with our total disaster of a coaching staff I don't have much confidence he will be more than "OK" to average.

 

[MightyTExan]

The main thing that I have not seen from Carr.

No 2-minute drill skills.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

There is a third camp which is attempting to fairly judge each player including Carr. IMO we don't really know what we have in Carr. He hasn't demonstrated himself as an elite QB, but IMO he hasn't been developed properly or put into a situation such that we could see what he would do on a NFL quality offense like other QB's get to develop in. As ArlingtonTexan said in another post, that is my single greatest criticism of this administration and why I want them gone--they have spent 4 years and $30 or so mil and have failed to build a team so that Carr can be judged adequately. If this administration had put together a team and O so we could conclude David Carr is no better than or only a poor man's Jake Plummer then criticism would be fair. They haven't done that.

Yep...from an on the field and business standpoint you can't invest in any QB for 4 years and not truly know what you have. I am so interested to see how the new coach staff and maybe GM handle Carr. He can't go into next year as "the guy" w/o legitimate challenge, no matter what the team does around him in regards to OL, WR, scheme , etc.

As poorly run as the Lions have been and plenty excuses for him to go around, the Lions at least know that Harrington is not worth a flip.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

While I'm not sold on Carr and may not be as patient as this middle camp is....its a fair point. Even with our total disaster of a coaching staff I don't have much confidence he will be more than "OK" to average.

Since I am sort in that middle camp, (even though saying Carr is Jake Plummer used get me Carr hater status), I want to say that for his draft position, and the time invested in him, Carr never being more than an average to OK QB is a disappointment and not what you want out of the face of franchise.

 

[infantrycak]

Well being an expansion franchise admittedly gives him a longer leesh, I feel picking up an $8 option for a guy who has done next to nothing, sends the wrong message to the other players on the team who will be looking for new contracts for their quality performance (AJ, Orr, Dunta, etc.). It is a question of money so we can have money to go after Tra Thomas so we can fix the OL so there are no more excuses. If Carr can come back for like $3 million and be willing to compete for the job I TOTALLY support him coming back for a mulligan in '06.

The fact is his agent and the NFLPA will not be down with that probably, so in that case you say 'later dude, its been real, its been good, but not real good' and good luck in Detroit, Miami, Baltimore, Chicago or whatever QB Graveyard you get pulled into

And I think Casserly or a new GM should absolutely try to work out a deal with Carr for a lower guaranteed amount, maybe with the same potential for upside. He probably won't do it and that becomes the dilemma. I don't want Banks or anyone of that defined pure back-up level of talent at QB. Ragone has shown more IMO in practice than Banks, but he hasn't looked anywhere as good as Carr--of course that is practice.

Practical reality is this discussion is most likely useless because barring a total melt-down McNair seems very intent on Carr--to the tune that he doesn't seem like he will ask Carr for a lessor contract and in fact will exercise not only the 2 year but the 3 year extension option. Of course that means with a new regime we will find out what Carr really is for good, bad or mediocre.

 

[the wonger need food]

He can't go into next year as "the guy" w/o legitimate challenge

Exactly! The Texans could have made a bid for Garcia or Holcombe or McMahon or Bledsoe. Why didn't they? Tony Banks is on a much lower level than these guys.

I have a theory, but the Carr apologists aren't going to like it. Remember back when Drew Henson was drafted and someone had to make a call to Big Dave to let him know that everything was kosher? I have a feeling that as long as Carr is around the Texans will never bring someone in to challenge him. Maybe it's the mentality of this organization and maybe they know something about Dave that we don't.

 

[tsip]

While I'm not sold on Carr and may not be as patient as this middle camp is....its a fair point. Even with our total disaster of a coaching staff I don't have much confidence he will be more than "OK" to average.

This is a very valid point that is made even more critical because of the $8 million dollar factor. Do we want to spend that kind of money on 'hope?' The problem is compounded even more because we have so many areas of the team that need fixing and are probally going to need money thrown at them, so do we have the luxury of spending the $8 million on the 'unknown.'

Your point about Banks in your previous post is also valid, as-not only has Carr not been pushed by competition-he also has not had the benefit of seeing how another QB would do in certain situations. Again, these scenarios and many others all go back to Capers--what a rigid coach he is! This man will not bend or ever admit that he's wrong. Heck, we are all wrong sometime!!

Finally, we've got to quit 'down sizing' everything to fit the players--shoot, if we're going to lose, let's at least push a few buttons. It's past time to expect results from these players, only question is-are there aggressive plays in our 'arsenal?'...knowing Capers, probally not but then-that is one reason it is so frustrating we can't even do the simple stuff.

 

[Lucky]

I have a theory, but the Carr apologists aren't going to like it...

Well, I have a theory...but the Carr haters aren't going to like it. My theory is that Bob McNair likes David Carr. A lot. He wants David to be the face of this franchise. Unlike others, McNair see intangibles in Carr like leadership and toughness. He appreciates the fact that David has been a standup guy throughout the tough times. McNair is not going to forget that kind of loyalty.

I don't think McNair will want to give Dom or Charley the boot. He wants this season to turn around. But if it doesn't, McNair will do what he has to do. Now here comes the part that some of you guys will find very upsetting. Bob McNair will choose the next HC and/or GM partly based upon the answer to the question, "Can you win with David Carr at QB?". And the winner will say, "Absolutely".

And if you think that it's far-fetched that a coach or GM would believe they could win with David Carr at QB, remember that the mega-turd Ryan Leaf got not one, but two additional shots after flaming out in San Diego. Who knows, they may be right. As has been pointed out by the Supergenius, among others, many young QBs breakout after being exposed to better coaching.

So like it or not, David Carr will be back and starting for your Houston Texans in 2006. As distressing as that sounds, in your heart you know it's true. You can continue to whine and bemoan that for the rest of the season and throughout the offseason. You can decide not to renew your season tickets. Send McNair a nasty (yet anonymous) letter. Or you can just lay back and enjoy it. Won't change anything, because #8 will still be taking the snaps for your team.

 

[SESupergenius]

After reading all of this one comes to the conclusion that you all think it's Carrs fault for the ineptitude of this offense. Carr had upswing potential every year until this year. Why is that? Nobody can answer this.

The "conspiracy" theories are laughable. The implosion of the team was foreseeable well back into the offseason and Carr wasn't even remotely a part of that. No all of the sudden it's all Carrs fault. Try again kids, maybe you get it right the next time. I was drilled by people on this board for telling people how bad P-Buc is, how letting both ILBs go and all the moving and switching around was going to kill the gelling the defense was starting to get, how not getting addressing the oline was counterproductive to the offense and so on and so on. Yet here we are at 1-6 and this is all Carrs fault. Nice. You get rid of Carr, you still have an offensive line that is responsible for the majority of sacks on this team and take away Carrs sacks that he brings on himself, they would still lead the league. You'd still wouldn't have a legit 2nd WR that goes after a ball or helps out a QB. You still don't have TE that can deceive a defense. You still don't have an offensive coordinator that likes to open up the offense and give control to the QB. You still don't a CB to pair with Robinson. You still don't have a LB corps that can play both run and pass, and you still don't have good safeties.

It's easy to pour on the QB, but he's the last of our worries.

 

[TEXANRED]

Ever since Carr was picked #1 overall he has been booed. He was booed his first season with such superstar support as Damingo Grahm and Young, and Chester Pitts protecting him. James Allen in the backfield and Corey Bradford catching the ball. How did we ever miss the playoffs?

The second year was just as good. With Chester Pitts still playing left tackle, a big time free agent aquisition like ZachW and Stacey Mack. At the same time drafting the future of the Texans Seth Wand. And of course Corey Bradford catching the ball. What!? No Superbowl!? Has to be Carrs fault.

Third year. This is our year. Seth Wand now starts at left tackle(despite the vast improvement by Pitts) McKinney in the best shape of his life and the final piece of the O-line puzzle in Todd Wade. We have a running back who promised 2000 yards, and Corey Bradford catching the ball. Throw in a brand spanking new totally complicated blocking scheme that none of our line-men can understand or perform. Okay now we're cookin. Did I mention Corey Bradford? We still suck? It's all David's fualt. Get a Rope.

Fourth year. This Victor Riley guy has got to be a steller super star to beat out Seth Wand. Mckinney is getting better, Zach's position has been taken over by Brown, Wade is in his prime and worth every penny, a younger and more athletic D with such players as Greenwood and PBuc, and Corey Bradford is still in the line-up. Our misfourtune's are all Carrs's fault. He should be tarred and feathered.

 

[Vinny]

Ever since Carr was picked #1 overall he has been booed.

This is news to me.

 

[tsip]

After reading all of this one comes to the conclusion that you all think it's Carrs fault for the ineptitude of this offense. Carr had upswing potential every year until this year. Why is that? Nobody can answer this.

The "conspiracy" theories are laughable. The implosion of the team was foreseeable well back into the offseason and Carr wasn't even remotely a part of that. No all of the sudden it's all Carrs fault. Try again kids, maybe you get it right the next time. I was drilled by people on this board for telling people how bad P-Buc is, how letting both ILB and all the moving and switching around was going to kill the gelling the defense was starting to get, how not getting addressing the oline was counterproductive to the offense and so on and so on. Yet here we are at 1-6 and this is all Carrs fault. Nice. You get rid of Carr, you still have an offensive line that is responsible for the majority of sacks on this team and take away Carrs sacks that he brings on himself, they would still lead the league. You'd still wouldn't have a legit 2nd WR that goes after a ball or helps out a QB. You still don't have TE that can deceive a defense. You still don't have an offensive coordinator that likes to open up the offense and give control to the QB. You still don't a CB to pair with Robinson. You still don't have a LB corps that can play both run and pass, and you still don't have good safeties.

It's easy to pour on the QB, but he's the last of our worries.

...so your'e saying that once all is 'perfect' in Texan Land, the real Carr will show up? Great, and you believe that because....??

 

[SESupergenius]

On a side note, not to derail this topic, but is anyone noticing how our offense has basically been stripped down (no screens, no quick hitches etc...) since Pendy took over and slowly he's building it back up.

 

[TEXANRED]

This is news to me.

You dont remember? When Carr was picked over Harrington the spectators started Booing. Loudly.

 

[infantrycak]

Well, I have a theory...but the Carr haters aren't going to like it. My theory is that Bob McNair likes David Carr. A lot. He wants David to be the face of this franchise. Unlike others, McNair see intangibles in Carr like leadership and toughness. He appreciates the fact that David has been a standup guy throughout the tough times. McNair is not going to forget that kind of loyalty.

I don't think McNair will want to give Dom or Charley the boot. He wants this season to turn around. But if it doesn't, McNair will do what he has to do. Now here comes the part that some of you guys will find very upsetting. Bob McNair will choose the next HC and/or GM partly based upon the answer to the question, "Can you win with David Carr at QB?". And the winner will say, "Absolutely".

Love or hate Carr or anything in between IMO this is exactly right. Someone is going to give McNair not just the I can win with David Carr answer he is going to say he will unleash the real David Carr. Who the real David Carr is remains to be seen but IMO Lucky's crystal ball is spot on.

 

[SESupergenius]

...so your'e saying that once all is 'perfect' in Texan Land, the real Carr will show up? Great, and you believe that because....??

It's a team game. Plain and simple. When you don't have other players making plays the whole team will suffer. I have my reservations about Carr just like everyone else, but I do see that he isn't being given a fair shot. I've actually seen Carr play in person while he was in college and know that he's not in the same league as Manning or Brady, but he does have very good potential if he gets the tools around him. The one lingering question is if we bring in another QB will this team excel with the same amount of talent? I think the overall talent on this team is poor and so I don't think bringing in another QB would get us over the hump. I havn't seen this staff open up the offense to let Carr gain his maximum potential. If Carr were to get the right coaching and right offensive mindset then I feel he'd be a lot better than just a guy being a sargeant and not a field general.

 

[real]

I would like to see us look at a QB in one of the later rounds Brad Smith or Reggie McNeil if they fall that far... basically some type of mobile quaterback that could be more elusive in the pocket...and a lot of you may be thinking car is a athletic and fast, but DC is none of that..he has decent str8 ahead speed but no is not elusive enough behind such a broken down line.

 

[utahmark]

You dont remember? When Carr was picked over Harrington the spectators started Booing. Loudly.

no he wasnt. carr was signed before the draft. are you saying his agent and all those lawyers around the signing were booing at the time.

 

[Coach C.]

I remember Harrington being booed, but not Carr. When a new coach comes in and says I will turn DC into the QB he is suppose to be(Lucky said this) then we will see a different QB. Carr has certain intagibles that most QBs in this league dont have. The heart that he possesses is almost immeasurable, eventhough I think he could be more vocal and lead this team. I say pay the man not only for the abuse we have given him, but for what he will become with a functional O-Line and aggressive playcalling.

 

[TEXANRED]

...so your'e saying that once all is 'perfect' in Texan Land, the real Carr will show up? Great, and you believe that because....??

No that's not what he is saying. The chain is only as strong as your weakest link. Carr is not the weakest link.

Lets look at what Carr's job is. Read a D, throw the ball. O'Tae. Carr reads a D just fine, it's a blitz and he going to get sacked. Second its hard to throw when you are on your back.

I know what you are gonna say "When he does have time he still doesnt throw well." That's because he is just as suprised as the rest of us he has time. Kinda like Bradford being so supprised he is open he dropps the ball everytime.

 

[TEXANRED]

no he wasnt. carr was signed before the draft. are you saying his agent and all those lawyers around the signing were booing at the time.

Okay, this is what I remember, Kipper or however you spell his name, was saying how great Harrington was and how stupid the Texans would be to pass on Harrington b/c he was more athletic with better accuracy where as Carr might have a gun for an arm but wasent as athletic and had that Bernie Kosar sideway throw.

I thought Carr had agreed to the terms of the contract before the draft but had not signed till after he was picked?

Also remember this was about the time when everyone was on the Organ banwaggon.

I just remember ESPN making a strong publicity push in Harrington's favor and when Carr was picked he got booed. Just like Elie got booed.

But again that is how I remember April of 2002.

 

[the wonger need food]

We got jobbed big time with that 2002 draft class. The best player out of the whole draft was a friggin' safety (Ed Reed).

 

[utahmark]

No that's not what he is saying. The chain is only as strong as your weakest link. Carr is not the weakest link.

Lets look at what Carr's job is. Read a D, throw the ball. O'Tae. Carr reads a D just fine, it's a blitz and he going to get sacked. Second its hard to throw when you are on your back.

I know what you are gonna say "When he does have time he still doesnt throw well." That's because he is just as suprised as the rest of us he has time. Kinda like Bradford being so supprised he is open he dropps the ball everytime.

wrong quote sry.

 

[utahmark]

Okay, this is what I remember, Kipper or however you spell his name, was saying how great Harrington was and how stupid the Texans would be to pass on Harrington b/c he was more athletic with better accuracy where as Carr might have a gun for an arm but wasent as athletic and had that Bernie Kosar sideway throw.

I thought Carr had agreed to the terms of the contract before the draft but had not signed till after he was picked?

Also remember this was about the time when everyone was on the Organ banwaggon.

I just remember ESPN making a strong publicity push in Harrington's favor and when Carr was picked he got booed. Just like Elie got booed.

But again that is how I remember April of 2002.

im not 100% sure that he was already signed. i sure dont remember a lot of booing. and im sure he wasnt booed his first couple of years here. i didnt hear any booes untill the end of last year.

 

[the wonger need food]

im not 100% sure that he was already signed. i sure dont remember a lot of booing. and im sure he wasnt booed his first couple of years here. i didnt hear any booes untill the end of last year.

The terms were worked out before the draft and he signed on the day he was drafted.

Anyone have a link for this year's salaries? The only site that I can find is USA Today those are not updated for 2005.