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Can we put "defense wins championships" to rest now?

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sandman

Brexit Advisor
Actually, all 4 teams left have very good defenses. I was reading an article the other day that argued that this group of 4 teams may have the best group of defenses in the history of the conference finals.

Defense is still very important, but QB, which was already the most important aspect of a team, is now even more important. We need a guy that actually has a pair if we want to get anywhere worth talking about.
Patriots - #9 total defense, 19.7 points per game

Broncos - #1 total defense, 18.5 points per game

Cards - #5 total defense, 19.6 points per game

Panthers - #6 total defense, 19.3 points per game

The Texans were right in that group at #3 total defense and 19.6 points per game, but as you said the QB is the kicker:

Patriots - Brady #4 rating at 102%

Broncos - Manning (not rated well because sat so much this year, BUT Manning)

Cards - Palmer #3 rating at 104%

Panthers - Newton #6 rating at 99%

Brian Hoyer - #18 rating at 91%
 

TexansSeminole

Hall of Fame
Brian Hoyer - #18 rating at 91%
Which is the highest of his career. Fitzpatrick also had his highest QB rating of his career last year under O'Brien. Yates and Weeden also played better than I expected in their limited duty. So did Mallett actually, I never expected him to do much of anything.

OB has chosen poorly with QBs, but he's been able to get more out of them than other coaches in the NFL. That (the coaching) bodes well but also his choices are concerning.
 

Marshall

Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Actually, all 4 teams left have very good defenses. I was reading an article the other day that argued that this group of 4 teams may have the best group of defenses in the history of the conference finals.

Defense is still very important, but QB, which was already the most important aspect of a team, is now even more important. We need a guy that actually has a pair if we want to get anywhere worth talking about.

I understand your overall point though, I never was of the belief that you can get by with a pedestrian offense and win a championship. That mindset needs to be put to rest.
TEAMS win championships. Is that better?
 

infantrycak

Hall of Fame
Which is the highest of his career. Fitzpatrick also had his highest QB rating of his career last year under O'Brien. Yates and Weeden also played better than I expected in their limited duty. So did Mallett actually, I never expected him to do much of anything.

OB has chosen poorly with QBs, but he's been able to get more out of them than other coaches in the NFL. That (the coaching) bodes well but also his choices are concerning.
This is true to a degree. But he does it by not asking much of them which means the O as a whole is handcuffed.
 

Double Barrel

Texans Talk Admin
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Whoa! why you getting so bent over a silly saying. It's not like I'm getting royalties for its perpetuation.
And yes, the best team won.
We got out played (offensively anyway - our defense kept us in it until they saw O'Brien trot Hoyer back out ) and more importantly, out coached.
I'm not bent, I'm a Carlinist that questions the bland and generic bleating of the herd. And it is more than a silly saying when I hear it over and over ad nauseam like it is ancient wisdom from some guru on a mountaintop that cannot be questioned. Before our lousy-ass playoff game you'd hear Texans fans acting like our great defense could overcome a shitty QB. Reality told a different story at the end of the day.

Another one that I'm tired of hearing is that they are playing a kid's game. No, football was not a kid's game. It was originally started by MEN, and people were dying so much that U.S. Congress was going to ban it completely before Teddy Roosevelt got involved (18 deaths in 1904 alone). Freakin' baseball, soccer, basketball - these are kids games by there very origins. Football was always a man's game and it just so happens that we are allowing kids to play it today.

btw, I'm still not bent, but rather just tired of mindless, overused clichés that are spewed without any thought process behind it.
 

powda

The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Defense DID win championship's when a running game was more important and NFL rules didnt cater to offenses.

Now it's outdated.

At the very minimum now i think you have to have at least a competent offense & special teams unit to accompany a good defense. We didnt.
 

Double Barrel

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Defense DID win championship's when a running game was more important and NFL rules didnt cater to offenses.

Now it's outdated.

At the very minimum now i think you have to have at least a competent offense & special teams unit to accompany a good defense. We didnt.
Very good point. Context is crucial. The saying is attributed to Bear Bryant, and he actually said: “Offense sells tickets, but defense wins championships." Back then, defenses could be feared. I'm sure you remember a time when "going across the middle" was dangerous and receivers that did it with success were tough and highly respected. That is not the case today.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
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Defense DID win championship's when a running game was more important and NFL rules didnt cater to offenses.

Now it's outdated.

At the very minimum now i think you have to have at least a competent offense & special teams unit to accompany a good defense. We didnt.
Defense has won recent championships with this formula. See also: Seattle Seahawks. You just have to have that smothering, elite defense and a dominating running game.
 

PapaL

Loose Screw
Going to be a defensive battle in this SB. Panthers secondary is suspect at times but Norman takes away a side by himself. Their DL and LBs are great...but Denver brings so much pressure so easily. I'm excited to see these two teams duke it out. Maybe Deymarious (sp) will show up for the SB? He was MIA against the Pats...but that's what good defenses do. Hahaha
 

stingray

Hall of Fame
Going to be a defensive battle in this SB. Panthers secondary is suspect at times but Norman takes away a side by himself. Their DL and LBs are great...but Denver brings so much pressure so easily. I'm excited to see these two teams duke it out. Maybe Deymarious (sp) will show up for the SB? He was MIA against the Pats...but that's what good defenses do. Hahaha
I think Demarious is being hurt by the fact that defenses are crowding the line of scrimmage against the Broncos. Since they know that Peytons arm is not what it was, they are taking advantage and crowding the line.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
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Going to be a defensive battle in this SB.
I'm rooting for Denver, but I don't see it.

Carolina appears to be able to run at will. Whether it's straight ahead with Stewart, a little trickeration with Ginn, or if Superman pulls it down & runs it himself. Add on top of that he can throw accurate bullets at will....

Their defense is awesome. But a lot of it has to do with that offense. Scoring at will, putting pressure on the other team to score, making them one dimensional, eating up the clock... I think Carolina's offense will confuse the Broncos defense from the first snap. Same way they did Arizona.
 

Double Barrel

Texans Talk Admin
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Defense has won recent championships with this formula. See also: Seattle Seahawks. You just have to have that smothering, elite defense and a dominating running game.
Looked like TEAM to me, not just a great defense.

Broncos defense sure did win that AFC Championship today.
No help from the offense? That 20 points was all defense? I'm pretty sure the two TDs to Owen Daniels helped to win the game, too.

MY POINT IS TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS. Some of y'all just like to be obtuse about it. I never said a great defense was not a big part of it, but JUST NOT THE ONLY PART OF IT.

Reminder: our great defense lost 30-0. Wake me up when we win a playoff game with Brian Hoyer at QB. :sleep:
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
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Looked like TEAM to me, not just a great defense.



No help from the offense? That 20 points was all defense? I'm pretty sure the two TDs to Owen Daniels helped to win the game, too.

MY POINT IS TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS. Some of y'all just like to be obtuse about it. I never said a great defense was not a big part of it, but JUST NOT THE ONLY PART OF IT.

Reminder: our great defense lost 30-0. Wake me up when we win a playoff game with Brian Hoyer at QB. :sleep:
I was just yanking your chain, DB. All in good fun, but you seem pretty passionate about this subject, so I'm out. :backsout:
 

Double Barrel

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I was just yanking your chain, DB. All in good fun, but you seem pretty passionate about this subject, so I'm out. :backsout:
I know. :D It's all good. Just putting out conversation for a very long offseason ahead of us. And I mean very l.....o.....n.....g indeed.

For the record, this entire thread/rant was started out of frustration of watching Brian Hoyer flop around like a fish out of water.

It was pathetic.

It was an embarrassment.

And it was so predictable.

I'm still disgusted about it. Not directed at the man himself, but I seriously hate Brian Hoyer the player.

And that burning hatred starts to singe anyone involved for making him a Texan, keeping him as a Texan, and deciding to trot his sorry pathetic ass out there at NRG to represent this team in a playoff game.

So that's my rant and why I started this thread and why I no longer buy into a great defense being able to win games on their own. Even a great defense needs a competent team around it, not some worthless choke artist posing as an NFL QB.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Looked like TEAM to me, not just a great defense.



No help from the offense? That 20 points was all defense? I'm pretty sure the two TDs to Owen Daniels helped to win the game, too.

MY POINT IS TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS. Some of y'all just like to be obtuse about it. I never said a great defense was not a big part of it, but JUST NOT THE ONLY PART OF IT.

Reminder: our great defense lost 30-0. Wake me up when we win a playoff game with Brian Hoyer at QB. :sleep:
You're going to be asleep for along time.
 

TD

Super Bowl Mascot
MY POINT IS TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS. Some of y'all just like to be obtuse about it. I never said a great defense was not a big part of it, but JUST NOT THE ONLY PART OF IT.
Given that it takes points to win, I don't think the cliche' was ever meant as defense is the only thing that wins championships.

And I do enjoy picking on the "facts" link. It was an article that did nothing but basically say "ignore the stats"....it was funny to read. ;-)
 

Double Barrel

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Given that it takes points to win, I don't think the cliche' was ever meant as defense is the only thing that wins championships.
I agree completely, but that's not how it was being applied lately in H-town. The problem with worn out and overused clichés is that people start to believe them and repeat them without any thought behind it, so we arrive at a point of hearing and reading Texans fans act like our great defense can just carry the entire team on it's back to victory without any help from a terrible QB.

In general, of course a great defense is a prime ingredient in championship teams. But, one side of the ball cannot win on its own without help from the other two units. Put a halfway competent QB on this Texans team and they would have competed with the Chiefs.
 

TD

Super Bowl Mascot
I agree completely, but that's not how it was being applied lately in H-town. The problem with worn out and overused clichés is that people start to believe them and repeat them without any thought behind it, so we arrive at a point of hearing and reading Texans fans act like our great defense can just carry the entire team on it's back to victory without any help from a terrible QB.

In general, of course a great defense is a prime ingredient in championship teams. But, one side of the ball cannot win on its own without help from the other two units. Put a halfway competent QB on this Texans team and they would have competed with the Chiefs.
I am sure you're frustrated by people (like me) who thought the defense could carry the team with Hoyer at QB. Clearly we were wrong. :-/
 

klockWork

Rookie
The Broncos win reminded me the Clowney draft pick was the right choice even though I will concede his injuries will make him a bust. It was a gamble worth taking. Because Broncos don't win that game without Demarcus Ware complimenting Von Miller of harassing Brady in the pocket. When any qb feels constant pressure from both ends it's doomsday for that team, unless the other team have a self-destructive offense(Hoyer).



Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 

Double Barrel

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I am sure you're frustrated by people (like me) who thought the defense could carry the team with Hoyer at QB. Clearly we were wrong. :-/
It's all good, man. I love you guys (in a non-sexual platonic online sort of way, of course). I enjoy chatting with this forum, so my thread was meant to be a little more silly than it has probably came across.

I honestly hated the thought of Hoyer from the point they acquired him, and my hatred (of the player, not the man) has only grown since then. The 30-0 ass beating just cemented it for me.

I'm not as hardass about this truism as it would appear in this thread. I'm a huge fan of defense. I love having a defense that can swallow other teams. And I never gave the cliché much thought before that game.
 

PapaL

Loose Screw
The Broncos win reminded me the Clowney draft pick was the right choice even though I will concede his injuries will make him a bust. It was a gamble worth taking. Because Broncos don't win that game without Demarcus Ware complimenting Von Miller of harassing Brady in the pocket. When any qb feels constant pressure from both ends it's doomsday for that team, unless the other team have a self-destructive offense(Hoyer).



Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
That's what I got from that game as well. I also walked away thinking that a shot Manning is 100x better than a "healthy" Destroyer. Another defensive performance like they just had and the Broncos will be SB champions.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
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It's all good, man. I love you guys (in a non-sexual platonic online sort of way, of course). I enjoy chatting with this forum, so my thread was meant to be a little more silly than it has probably came across.

I honestly hated the thought of Hoyer from the point they acquired him, and my hatred (of the player, not the man) has only grown since then. The 30-0 ass beating just cemented it for me.

I'm not as hardass about this truism as it would appear in this thread. I'm a huge fan of defense. I love having a defense that can swallow other teams. And I never gave the cliché much thought before that game.
Your replies come across as hard ass and that you have an iron in this fire. Of course, this is all non-sexual and platonic... :kitten:
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Your replies come across as hard ass and that you have an iron in this fire. Of course, this is all non-sexual and platonic... :kitten:
Whut he sed
:D

And to be straight up about it, I'm with you on the Hoyer thing, I tried pumping sunshine up my own butt (in a non-sexusl, platonic, philosophical sort of way) and convince myself that Hoyer would be adequate. I did NOT see that level of implosion coming. Nor did I see O'Brien not being prepared to shift gears in the event of said implosion

I can hardly wait to see what our QB guru HC unveils next year.

Yee--freakin'-HA
 

Double Barrel

Texans Talk Admin
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Your replies come across as hard ass and that you have an iron in this fire. Of course, this is all non-sexual and platonic... :kitten:
yeah, I'll admit that my iron in the fire is being a disgruntled and cynical lifelong Houston pro football fan. I'm honestly sick of this shit year after year, but I'm apparently a glutton for punishment and keep coming back for more. That's the place where the original post that started this thread came from. If I'd given myself a few days to contemplate, I would have blown it off instead....like I do every year.

What's wrong with me?! :crazy: Same thing probably that's wrong with all of y'all, too!
 

TD

Super Bowl Mascot
yeah, I'll admit that my iron in the fire is being a disgruntled and cynical lifelong Houston pro football fan. I'm honestly sick of this shit year after year, but I'm apparently a glutton for punishment and keep coming back for more. That's the place where the original post that started this thread came from. If I'd given myself a few days to contemplate, I would have blown it off instead....like I do every year.

What's wrong with me?! :crazy: Same thing probably that's wrong with all of y'all, too!
I have been thinking about how after the Oilers left I was out....FREE!!! Why did I stupidly let myself get invested again. We are all crazy.
 

eriadoc

Texan-American
LINK

It's funny how things happen.

On Sunday night, Gary Kubiak did what he never could as the Houston Texans' head coach. He led his team to a win in the AFC Championship Game and a berth in the Super Bowl.

His victory with the Denver Broncos exposed an irony of being an NFL head coach. When Kubiak had the offense he needed and the time to build it, the circumstances just didn't work out. Now that he doesn't have the offense nor the time, they have worked out.
Firing Kubiak was the right move for the Texans. They needed that change after such a catastrophic season. It didn't mean Kubiak was a bad coach, and he has proved as much in his handling of the Broncos this season. Just two seasons removed from the disaster in Houston, Kubiak's team is headed to the Super Bowl.

It's not because Kubiak has Peyton Manning, a quarterback many in Houston have long coveted. With Manning nearing the end of his career, Denver's overall Total QBR ranked 25th in the NFL this season, six spots worse than the Texans, who played four quarterbacks. Furthermore, there have been questions since the start of Kubiak's tenure in Denver about whether Manning was a good fit for his offense.

The Broncos are in the Super Bowl because of their defense. Kubiak's offense, which fit great with the Texans, didn't produce a Super Bowl in Houston. Now, under less than ideal conditions in Denver, Kubiak's offense hasn't needed to do that.

These things don't always make sense.

I think you have some more evangelizing to do, DB. :D
 

Double Barrel

Texans Talk Admin
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LINK

I think you have some more evangelizing to do, DB. :D
hehe...Let's see Manning put up a Hoyer-esque playoff performance and still win. If that happens, I'll be glad to eat crow. ;)

My rebellion was truly against the seemingly pervasive "only defense wins championships" attitude about the truism. Of course great defenses are a big part of teams that win it all.

But, Brian Hoyer just proved that great defense, in and of itself, cannot win even a single playoff game, much less a championship (and no, winning the division is not a championship. That's the NFL equivalent of a participation trophy as far as I'm concerned). The only reason this thread was started was pure unadulterated disgust at this franchise for making us suffer through that loser's highlight reel.

I'm still disgusted by it. The SB makes me glad the season is over and I can ignore the NFL until September.
 

powda

The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
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I think you have some more evangelizing to do, DB. :D
Don't have the time to check their offense and special teams rankings vs ours but it's different.

I have the feeling i'll be revisiting this when the panthers smash the Broncos because they have a great defense AND A GOOD OFFENSE.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
A pretty damn good defense is going to be a big part of winning the Super Bowl this year. Both teams have lights out units on that side of the ball.
 

Marshall

Not pretty, but ALIVE!
hehe...Let's see Manning put up a Hoyer-esque playoff performance and still win. If that happens, I'll be glad to eat crow. ;)

My rebellion was truly against the seemingly pervasive "only defense wins championships" attitude about the truism. Of course great defenses are a big part of teams that win it all.

But, Brian Hoyer just proved that great defense, in and of itself, cannot win even a single playoff game, much less a championship (and no, winning the division is not a championship. That's the NFL equivalent of a participation trophy as far as I'm concerned). The only reason this thread was started was pure unadulterated disgust at this franchise for making us suffer through that loser's highlight reel.

I'm still disgusted by it. The SB makes me glad the season is over and I can ignore the NFL until September.
That truism, like most, simply notes the importance of defense in championships. But like "Drive for SHOW and Putt for DOUGH", it presumes at least competence in the other.
 
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