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Can we put "defense wins championships" to rest now?

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Double Barrel

Double Barrel

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TEAM wins championships.

We just saw a top ranked defense with the best defensive player in the game put zero points on the board.

The defense did not lose this game. Four STUPID QB turnovers in the first half only resulted in two field goals. If not for that lame special teams failure to start the game, that's 6-0 in the first half.

I'm just tired of the worn out cliché that promotes flawed and incorrect logic. Saturday clearly revealed that a great defense, by itself, cannot even win a playoff game, much less a championship.

And tbh, I'm not convinced that getting blown out in the playoffs is better than not making them at all. We wasted an afternoon watching one of the worst QB performances in my life, and many of us fully expected it all along.

J.J. Watt is wasting the prime years of his career as long as they keep trotting out scrap heap QBs.
 
Double Barrel said:
TEAM wins championships.

We just saw a top ranked defense with the best defensive player in the game put zero points on the board.

The defense did not lose this game. Four STUPID QB turnovers in the first half only resulted in two field goals. If not for that lame special teams failure to start the game, that's 6-0 in the first half.

I'm just tired of the worn out cliché that promotes flawed and incorrect logic. Saturday clearly revealed that a great defense, by itself, cannot even win a playoff game, much less a championship.

And tbh, I'm not convinced that getting blown out in the playoffs is better than not making them at all. We wasted an afternoon watching one of the worst QB performances in my life, and many of us fully expected it all along.

J.J. Watt is wasting the prime years of his career as long as they keep trotting out scrap heap QBs.
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I think defense and offense go hand and hand. Hell i blame Hoyer for Watts injury, if he hadn't thrown pick after pick Watt wouldn't of had to run from the sideline to the field so many times..... ;)
 
EllisUnit said:
I think defense and offense go hand and hand. Hell i blame Hoyer for Watts injury, if he hadn't thrown pick after pick Watt wouldn't of had to run from the sideline to the field so many times..... ;)
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I think that saying considers that the offense has more than a high school caliber QB.
 
Double Barrel said:
TEAM wins championships.

We just saw a top ranked defense with the best defensive player in the game put zero points on the board.

The defense did not lose this game. Four STUPID QB turnovers in the first half only resulted in two field goals. If not for that lame special teams failure to start the game, that's 6-0 in the first half.

I'm just tired of the worn out cliché that promotes flawed and incorrect logic. Saturday clearly revealed that a great defense, by itself, cannot even win a playoff game, much less a championship.

And tbh, I'm not convinced that getting blown out in the playoffs is better than not making them at all. We wasted an afternoon watching one of the worst QB performances in my life, and many of us fully expected it all along.

J.J. Watt is wasting the prime years of his career as long as they keep trotting out scrap heap QBs.
Click to expand...


While Teams do win Championships, I still think there is something to a Top Tier D putting a team in the hunt. The problem is you can't have Hoyer and the best D of all time and win. You put Trent Dilfer on this team and the Texans would have had a shot in that game. Also to clarify, I mean Trent Dilfer today, not 2000 Trent Dilfer.
 
="Double Barrel, post: 2569542, member: 1643"]

TEAM wins championships..

And tbh, I'm not convinced that getting blown out in the playoffs is better than not making them at all. .
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That's all I and a few others have been saying all along & got flamed for it...

Still disagree with this though. Lots of things to be gained from getting to the playoffs regardless of how badly you get beaten..There's nothing to be gained from not getting there.
 
Big Lou said:
While Teams do win Championships, I still think there is something to a Top Tier D putting a team in the hunt. The problem is you can't have Hoyer and the best D of all time and win. You put Trent Dilfer on this team and the Texans would have had a shot in that game. Also to clarify, I mean Trent Dilfer today, not 2000 Trent Dilfer.
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It's true to a point only b/c the defense has the ability to directly put up points on their side of the ball without the offense's help at all. The offense can't directly do anything the defense does though.
 
Well....you could argue KC's defense DID win them the game. Their offense was pretty pitiful for most of the game too.
 
I'm all about defense, but I do understand the importance of having an offense that can average around 20-25 pts/game while limiting TOs. It's obvious the offense/Hoyer cost us the game Sunday, but it also put our defense at a major disadvantage. The TOs, the 3 and outs and other short drives can gas a defense. I think the "defense wins championships" was meant to have an average offense that doesn't throw games away. Similar to the 84 Bears and 2000 Ravens
 
My mantra all season was sarcastically telling people that we would win the division and be in the playoffs at home with a 6-10 record. Unfortunately some people are so sunshine pumper mode they thought I was pumping them up for a miracle playoff run, I didn't have the heart to explain the joke to them.

In any case, point is, the Texans had no place playing in the playoffs. They won the division by default for being the least chitty team in a chitty division. Not really something to hang you hat on. Hopefully that unrelenting pounding they took makes some people really wake up.

Did I get excited to watch the game, sure - like in the 24 hours leading to kick off. I am still a fan after all. But there was definitely a lack luster sense of enthusiasm on my part compared to previous playoff years as I knew what was coming. That chit show was a joke. Now apparently we're firing ball boys and are supposed to see that as the hammer coming down.
 
Double Barrel said:
TEAM wins championships.

We just saw a top ranked defense with the best defensive player in the game put zero points on the board.

The defense did not lose this game. Four STUPID QB turnovers in the first half only resulted in two field goals. If not for that lame special teams failure to start the game, that's 6-0 in the first half.

I'm just tired of the worn out cliché that promotes flawed and incorrect logic. Saturday clearly revealed that a great defense, by itself, cannot even win a playoff game, much less a championship.

And tbh, I'm not convinced that getting blown out in the playoffs is better than not making them at all. We wasted an afternoon watching one of the worst QB performances in my life, and many of us fully expected it all along.

J.J. Watt is wasting the prime years of his career as long as they keep trotting out scrap heap QBs.
Click to expand...
To all those who want to argue differently, What part of zero, do you not understand?
 
HTown2ATX said:
My mantra all season was sarcastically telling people that we would win the division and be in the playoffs at home with a 6-10 record. Unfortunately some people are so sunshine pumper mode they thought I was pumping them up for a miracle playoff run, I didn't have the heart to explain the joke to them.

In any case, point is, the Texans had no place playing in the playoffs. They won the division by default for being the least chitty team in a chitty division. Not really something to hang you hat on. Hopefully that unrelenting pounding they took makes some people really wake up.

Did I get excited to watch the game, sure - like in the 24 hours leading to kick off. I am still a fan after all. But there was definitely a lack luster sense of enthusiasm on my part compared to previous playoff years as I knew what was coming. That chit show was a joke. Now apparently we're firing ball boys and are supposed to see that as the hammer coming down.
Click to expand...

See that's the thing..even back in 2011 & 2012, i never felt we could make it to the SB. Hopeful yes, but deep down i kinda knew we weren't going anywhere. As good as our record was in those times, At no point did i ever feel we were ever good enough to go into NE or Baltimore & win. For 1 I've been watching Houston pro sports for too long, 2, & this is very similar to Hoyer, I never quite trusted Schaub on the big stage, & 3, the teams we'd have to go through were seasoned teams...we were just wetting our beak with playoff experience. So i guess many of you are where i've been all along with this team.
 
Defense doesn't win championships, but neither is a great QB the magic bullet. It's a team, as you said. If Hoyer had simply not turned the ball over, the Texans had a good chance at winning that game, simply for the fact that the defense was playing lights out. Obviously, you need to pair the defense up with a good offense. That's where the Texans missed out the past few drafts. They keep stockpiling defensive talent (some of which doesn't pan out), and they really never address the most important single position on the field. That doesn't mean you have to take a QB #1 overall, but you have to make a meaningful attempt to fix the problem. The Raiders took Khalil Mack with their first round pick the year the Texans took Clowney. He's made 1st Team All Pro now at two different positions, something no one else has ever done in the history of the NFL. Then they grabbed a decent QB in the second round that's playing pretty well for them. And while I'm not personally a fan, there's an argument to be made for Bridgewater in the second round. Hell, Kirk Cousins was drafted in the 4th round. Russell Wilson was drafted in the 3rd round. These are playoff QBs we're talking about here. Carson Palmer was a first round pick, but was grabbed off the scrap heap. The Texans could have gone down that road. Hell, they could have tried for Brees, but like 28 other teams, didn't even bother.

There are solutions. I don't know that the Texans are problem solvers.
 
HOU-TEX said:
I'm all about defense, but I do understand the importance of having an offense that can average around 20-25 pts/game while limiting TOs. It's obvious the offense/Hoyer cost us the game Sunday, but it also put our defense at a major disadvantage. The TOs, the 3 and outs and other short drives can gas a defense. I think the "defense wins championships" was meant to have an average offense that doesn't throw games away. Similar to the 84 Bears and 2000 Ravens
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I understand historically what "defense wins championships" is supposed to mean. Unfortunately, there have been many fans that have argued that a great defense can carry a team with a bad QB, and that's the point of my initial post.

A TEAM with a great defense can obviously win championships, but the rest of the team has to consist of an offense that doesn't turn the ball over 5 times and can at least put some points on the board throughout the game, as well as a special teams unit that does not put us into the hole 11 seconds into a game.

Like J.J. said last year about the MVP; The QB is always the most valuable player on a team because they touch the ball every offensive snap and can often be the catalyst for a team to rally behind. The reason J.J. is so valuable on a defense is because his job is to get the QB.
 
I think at one time, literally decades ago you could say that defense wins championships.

Things change and that changed a long time ago.
 
Could this defense have carried a Weeden led team? I think so. I still think it could also carry a regular season "no pressure" Hoyer led team. I agree though that Opening day and Closing Day showed no defense can overcome Hoyer choke. :-(
 
Double Barrel said:
TEAM wins championships.

We just saw a top ranked defense with the best defensive player in the game put zero points on the board.

The defense did not lose this game. Four STUPID QB turnovers in the first half only resulted in two field goals. If not for that lame special teams failure to start the game, that's 6-0 in the first half.

I'm just tired of the worn out cliché that promotes flawed and incorrect logic. Saturday clearly revealed that a great defense, by itself, cannot even win a playoff game, much less a championship.

And tbh, I'm not convinced that getting blown out in the playoffs is better than not making them at all. We wasted an afternoon watching one of the worst QB performances in my life, and many of us fully expected it all along.

J.J. Watt is wasting the prime years of his career as long as they keep trotting out scrap heap QBs.
Click to expand...
That phrase is quite accurate when it's coupled with adequate offensive play, so no, it cannot be put to rest. It took an almost historicslly bad performance by Hoyer to lead to this defeat. Poor QB play could've led to a victory. Fair QB play likely would've led to a victory (crowd playing a factor). Above average QB play would almost guarantee a victory. Then we start talking about special teams.
 
DocBar said:
That phrase is quite accurate when it's coupled with adequate offensive play, so no, it cannot be put to rest. It took an almost historicslly bad performance by Hoyer to lead to this defeat. Poor QB play could've led to a victory. Fair QB play likely would've led to a victory (crowd playing a factor). Above average QB play would almost guarantee a victory. Then we start talking about special teams.
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Yup, the saying isn't "defenses win championships even with historically bad qb performances"

That saying is meant for qbs like Alex Smith, Eli Manning, Trent Dilfer....guys who are average or slightly below average. Not the Christian Ponders or Jamarcus Russell's of the world.
 
I'm not convinced this defense under crennel is that great. Yeah there was that game against Drew Brees and Dalton, and that lowest 3rd down defense percentage stats. But deep down I knew they were frauds and I prayed every Sunday that JJ Watt absence won't revealed that fact.

Two series Watt went out and the Texans gave up points on both long drives against a bad offense with a reshuffle Oline that also just lost Maclin, their best wr to injuries. There's no way this Chiefs offense would be able to score a single td after Maclin went down.

If this defense is truly great the final score would be 13-0 Chiefs. If Hoyer is elite and the defense truly sucks we still lose 38-30. Either way we lose because overall this is not a very good team.



Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 
This team will not get any better until it gets some better offensive players. Hoyer is the worst QB you could play against a really good defense (and, frankly, O'Brien should've known it), so you can start there. Weeden should have started against the Chiefs. Hoyer was fine against bad and mediocre D's.

What all you guys have said culminates into the truth, which is that we have neglected (and made some bad choices about) the offense, and we need more talent on offense, especially at QB. We have not gone after high enough quality free agents and/or tried hard enough in the draft to find one. We also really need a TE who can catch (like, uh, I don't know, somebody like Owen Daniels), and a starter or almost starter-quality tail-back, because Foster cannot be relied on to stay healthy. It all comes down to this: we have neglected the offense and the Chiefs game is the result.
 
HJam72 said:
What all you guys have said culminates into the truth, which is that we have neglected (and made some bad choices about) the offense, and we need more talent on offense, especially at QB. We have not gone after high enough quality free agents and/or tried hard enough in the draft to find one. We also really need a TE who can catch (like, uh, I don't know, somebody like Owen Daniels), and a starter or almost starter-quality tail-back, because Foster cannot be relied on to stay healthy. It all comes down to this: we have neglected the offense and the Chiefs game is the result.
Click to expand...

I wonder if anybody in The Texans Front office or coaching staff knows anything about these concepts
 
Double Barrel said:
And tbh, I'm not convinced that getting blown out in the playoffs is better than not making them at all. We wasted an afternoon watching one of the worst QB performances in my life, and many of us fully expected it all along.
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I think that now Hoyer stocks must be lower than what they would have been if we missed the playoffs.
If that's true, then getting blown out in the playoffs is actually better than missing them.

Plus, we don't have to worry about "one and done" stats, since this is the first time we lose on wildcard weekend (not like the bengals)
Plus #2, the only reason why we are in the playoffs is because we won in indy, and that's a stat I'm glad we ruined for them.

(other than that, I agree with your point)
 
Double Barrel said:
TEAM wins championships.

We just saw a top ranked defense with the best defensive player in the game put zero points on the board.

The defense did not lose this game. Four STUPID QB turnovers in the first half only resulted in two field goals. If not for that lame special teams failure to start the game, that's 6-0 in the first half.

I'm just tired of the worn out cliché that promotes flawed and incorrect logic. Saturday clearly revealed that a great defense, by itself, cannot even win a playoff game, much less a championship.

And tbh, I'm not convinced that getting blown out in the playoffs is better than not making them at all. We wasted an afternoon watching one of the worst QB performances in my life, and many of us fully expected it all along.

J.J. Watt is wasting the prime years of his career as long as they keep trotting out scrap heap QBs.
Click to expand...

The cliche does NOT promote flawed and incorrect logic. Unless of course you don't put things into perspective, which would require a great effort in this case.
 
Some of y'all refuse to attempt to understand my point or it's flying over your head.

DocBar said:
That phrase is quite accurate when it's coupled with adequate offensive play,
Click to expand...

Soooo....basically you need TEAM? :thinking: hmmmmm...pretty sure that was my original point...

Y'all act like I do not understand the original meaning of the phrase. What I'm trying to alter is the prevalent attitude around here that a great defense can overcome a shitty offense and crap QB.

That, and this cliché has become overused bullshit by apologetic fans and one that has been proven incorrect by facts (see below).

Speaking of which:

Marcus said:
The cliche does NOT promote flawed and incorrect logic. Unless of course you don't put things into perspective, which would require a great effort in this case.
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Do you even comprehend the definition of cliché?

"a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought."

Yep, too much effort for some to understand... :listening

Hey, here's something that will pop some thought bubbles. Actual facts!

Football Freakonomics: Tackling the Old Defense-Wins-Championship Cliche

We leaned on the research of Brian Burke at Advanced NFL Stats, who finds that elite offenses historically outperform elite defenses.

We also leaned on the research of Tobias J. Moskowitz and L. Jon Wertheim, the authors of Scorecasting. They looked at data from Super Bowls as well as 10,000-plus regular-season games, and similarly found the cliché to be unsupportable.

Source
Click to expand...

:pop:
 
Double Barrel said:
TEAM wins championships.

We just saw a top ranked defense with the best defensive player in the game put zero points on the board.

The defense did not lose this game. Four STUPID QB turnovers in the first half only resulted in two field goals. If not for that lame special teams failure to start the game, that's 6-0 in the first half.

I'm just tired of the worn out cliché that promotes flawed and incorrect logic. Saturday clearly revealed that a great defense, by itself, cannot even win a playoff game, much less a championship.

And tbh, I'm not convinced that getting blown out in the playoffs is better than not making them at all. We wasted an afternoon watching one of the worst QB performances in my life, and many of us fully expected it all along.

J.J. Watt is wasting the prime years of his career as long as they keep trotting out scrap heap QBs.
Click to expand...
There's no way one can be considered more important than the other. If you talk about one team's offense, you're automatically talking about the other team's defense, etc. Special teams play may be more vital than either.
The 4 stupid turnovers gave them 6 points, but how many points did they keep us from scoring? In general I figure a turnover is worth 3 points or 50 yards. Saturday it might have been worse.
 
Double Barrel said:
Hey, here's something that will pop some thought bubbles. Actual facts!

Football Freakonomics: Tackling the Old Defense-Wins-Championship Cliche

Source
Click to expand...

Not that there isn't some good info, but the bias is pretty overwhelming.

In the 2011 season they reference, even though the Giants gave up a lot of yards, they were #8 in points allowed; were rated higher than the Patriots in defense and below them in offense. I think we know who won that one.

The big one though is the "study" they reference which had this little gem.

The favorite statistic of the “defense wins championships” proponents is that the top-ranked defense during the regular season has won 15 Super Bowls, whereas the top-ranked offense has won only 8. Although this would seem to confer an advantage to defense, these two numbers are not statistically different.
Click to expand...


2 to 1 isn't statistically significant???? Really??? Come on.

While none of the other stats were as biased, the article basically was forced to admit good defense has beaten good offense more often than not. They just chose to always say "not significant".


Anyway, I am nit-picking to an extent; you do need a TEAM, but at the same time the stats do point to defense being more important than offense.
Click to expand...
 
Defense DOES win championships.
And the defense that created FIVE turnovers and pitched a shutout won the damned game.
What's so difficult to comprehend??
 
ObsiWan said:
Defense DOES win championships.
And the defense that created FIVE turnovers and pitched a shutout won the damned game.
What's so difficult to comprehend??
Click to expand...

Wait!!! :confused: You're saying KC created Hoyer? :choke:
 
You better be able to score some points because the best we could have hoped for saturday was a tie when we got shut out. Thats sad there and that was my issue with the expectations of this team all year that even though we were pretty good on defense the offense was too inept for us to have any chance to be a contender.
 
HOU-TEX said:
I'm all about defense, but I do understand the importance of having an offense that can average around 20-25 pts/game while limiting TOs. It's obvious the offense/Hoyer cost us the game Sunday, but it also put our defense at a major disadvantage. The TOs, the 3 and outs and other short drives can gas a defense. I think the "defense wins championships" was meant to have an average offense that doesn't throw games away. Similar to the 84 Bears and 2000 Ravens
Click to expand...
I think it refers to offensive and defensive rankings. In the playoffs, the team with the better defensive ranking is more often the Champion than the one with the higher offensive ranking.

(Of course, every truism has it's exceptions.)

But the TEAM wins or loses. (including this one)
 
ObsiWan said:
Defense DOES win championships.
And the defense that created FIVE turnovers and pitched a shutout won the damned game.
What's so difficult to comprehend??
Click to expand...

Their offense put 23 points on the board against our wonderful defense. TEAM effort there.

I guess cold, hard facts do not matter to some with preconceived agendas that they refuse to challenge.

Intelligence: Not because you think you know everything without questioning, but rather because you question everything you think you know.
 
No because it is true: defense wins you championships.

QB's just wins you games but you need to win games to be a better team
 
Double Barrel said:
I guess cold, hard facts do not matter to some with preconceived agendas that they refuse to challenge.
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Facts? Since when did you decide that facts have anything to do with an axiom? An axiom that was around way before you were born, and will still be here after you're long gone.

How many times have you used the axiom, "A fool and his money are soon parted" on this board? Got any facts that back that up? Is that always the case?

"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" Really? Is that always true?

"The female of the species is deadlier than the male" No facts required there. :)

"The more one knows, the less one believes" (my favorite)
 
dtran04 said:
Well....you could argue KC's defense DID win them the game. Their offense was pretty pitiful for most of the game too.
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The Chiefs most valuable player on defense seemed to be Brian Hoyer because a lot of their defensive players didn't particularly "wow me or anything" and Justin Houston, their best player on defense and an all pro talent, was limping around out there.

Hoyer pretty much gifted them that game with all of those turnovers. Hoyer had good pass blocking on a couple of his turnovers as well. Our O-Line, minus Duane Brown, actually played well.

Also when you score 0 points and the other team returns a kick off for a TD only eleven seconds into the game. Well the game was already over at that point. We wasted our time playing the final 59 minutes and 49 seconds of that game. Thanks, Brian Hoyer. And thanks Bill O'Brien for never pulling his sorry ass out of that game! Especially when it was only a 13-0 game at halftime and there was still ample opportunity to fight back.
 
Double Barrel said:
Their offense put 23 points on the board against our wonderful defense. TEAM effort there.

I guess cold, hard facts do not matter to some with preconceived agendas that they refuse to challenge.

Intelligence: Not because you think you know everything without questioning, but rather because you question everything you think you know.
Click to expand...
Whoa! why you getting so bent over a silly saying. It's not like I'm getting royalties for its perpetuation.
And yes, the best team won.
We got out played (offensively anyway - our defense kept us in it until they saw O'Brien trot Hoyer back out ) and more importantly, out coached.
 
Double Barrel said:
Their offense put 23 points on the board against our wonderful defense. TEAM effort there.

I guess cold, hard facts do not matter to some with preconceived agendas that they refuse to challenge.

Intelligence: Not because you think you know everything without questioning, but rather because you question everything you think you know.
Click to expand...
Would that also apply to questioning the truism that defense wins championships?

I personally think you need a complete team, but understand that winning is weighted toward defense.
 
Next draft needs to be 100% offense. And no more wasted picks that cant even make the team. Like a #2 NIX!!!
 
The Chiefs defense looks very average and pedestrian against Tom Brady and the Patriots in the divisional round of the playoffs right now. The Pats offense just went 98 yards to take a 14-3 lead over the Chiefs. But yet our offense couldn't even score "any points" against that defense!!!!!!

I hope Bill O'Brien is watching this game.
Maybe he's wishing he were still with the Patriots.
Vince Wilfork probably is. He could have won another Super Bowl ring.
 
Actually, all 4 teams left have very good defenses. I was reading an article the other day that argued that this group of 4 teams may have the best group of defenses in the history of the conference finals.

Defense is still very important, but QB, which was already the most important aspect of a team, is now even more important. We need a guy that actually has a pair if we want to get anywhere worth talking about.

I understand your overall point though, I never was of the belief that you can get by with a pedestrian offense and win a championship. That mindset needs to be put to rest.
 
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