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Can we put "defense wins championships" to rest now?

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I wish we had a defense like the Broncos which features the best defensive player in the league in Von Miller, coached by an excellent defensive coordinator like Wade Phillips. If only we had a head coach like Gary Kubiak and a tight end like Owen Daniels.

Oh wait (head palm)... And enough Von Miller talk. J.J. Watt is still the best defensive player in the league. But we didn't win the Lombardi Trophy tonight because Bob McNair said Matt Schaub was our guy and didn't have the guts to sign Peyton Manning as a free agent four off-seasons ago.
 
Defense wins championship...when you have a noodle armed Peyton and an obvious play calling OC.
 
PapaL said:
Defense wins championship...when you have a noodle armed Peyton and an obvious play calling OC...........
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......and......and.....Kubiak is the head coach.

Yeah, you can pretty much put it to bed that Defense wins championships.

"But I guess Kubiak wasn't really the problem, huh?"

I said exactly those words out loud to about 40 people at a SB party tonight. And you know what they all said back?

"I never thought he was."

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Bulls on Parade said:
I wish we had a defense like the Broncos which features the best defensive player in the league in Von Miller, coached by an excellent defensive coordinator like Wade Phillips. If only we had a head coach like Gary Kubiak and a tight end like Owen Daniels.

Oh wait (head palm)... And enough Von Miller talk. J.J. Watt is still the best defensive player in the league. But we didn't win the Lombardi Trophy tonight because Bob McNair said Matt Schaub was our guy and didn't have the guts to sign Peyton Manning as a free agent four off-seasons ago.
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Peyton's finished. He would not make our team better and was not the reason Denver won. At the time, both QBs were a gamble. I do NOT fault the team for sticking with Schaub.

It was definitely NOT the head palm moment you describe.
 
Bulls on Parade said:
I wish we had a defense like the Broncos which features the best defensive player in the league in Von Miller, coached by an excellent defensive coordinator like Wade Phillips. If only we had a head coach like Gary Kubiak and a tight end like Owen Daniels.

Oh wait (head palm)... And enough Von Miller talk. J.J. Watt is still the best defensive player in the league. But we didn't win the Lombardi Trophy tonight because Bob McNair said Matt Schaub was our guy and didn't have the guts to sign Peyton Manning as a free agent four off-seasons ago.
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McNair didn't have the $ to sign Peyton, McNair at that time had the Texans upside down with the salary cap. Kubiak is a good Head Coach. The difference in Denver and Houston is in Denver Kubiak didn't have a meddling owner who doesn't know what he's doing, Kubiak in Denver has a strong GM that does that does know what he's doing and the GM also has Final say on the 53 man roster. There is a reason the Texans have a .423 winning percentage, Bob McNair. I think fans are finally waking up to this fact. The McNair polish has lost it's appeal.
 
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I think the problem with Kubiak's Texan's team was primarily talent evaluation and selection. When Kubes was coupled with Rick Smith, too many underperforming players were selected too high or retained for too much money. The Texans wasted picks and remained either in, or on the edge of salary cap hell with too many "meh" players. The difference in Denver is John Elway has been a better GM and their talent evaluation and selection process has been superior to the Texans. Does anyone here think that Rick & Kubes would have put Denver in the same position to win that they currently are?
 
Flyingfish said:
I think the problem with Kubiak's Texan's team was primarily talent evaluation and selection. When Kubes was coupled with Rick Smith, too many underperforming players were selected too high or retained for too much money. The Texans wasted picks and remained either in, or on the edge of salary cap hell with too many "meh" players. The difference in Denver is John Elway has been a better GM and their talent evaluation and selection process has been superior to the Texans. Does anyone here think that Rick & Kubes would have put Denver in the same position to win that they currently are?
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TBF, Elway has been in Denver as GM only 4 years, it's Kubiak's first. Let's not act like they were building an expansion team here...
 
I think Denver's defense has good to premier talent at every position. The Texans defense, while I still enjoy watching most of the time, have Watt and a boatload of 1st rounders meddling around average.

I still blame Wade for not making changes when the Patriots were exploiting the heck out of our LBs...twice. He's stubborn. He has his scheme that he sticks with no matter what. Now, he's got the players to run it like it runs in his head. The speed at the LB position was evident compared to what he had here. He may have mixed in a bit more zone coverage this year, but other than that....same D better players.

Side note: The Broncos have to have cap issues coming, right?
 
HOU-TEX said:
I think Denver's defense has good to premier talent at every position. The Texans defense, while I still enjoy watching most of the time, have Watt and a boatload of 1st rounders meddling around average.

I still blame Wade for not making changes when the Patriots were exploiting the heck out of our LBs...twice. He's stubborn. He has his scheme that he sticks with no matter what. Now, he's got the players to run it like it runs in his head. The speed at the LB position was evident compared to what he had here. He may have mixed in a bit more zone coverage this year, but other than that....same D better players.

Side note: The Broncos have to have cap issues coming, right?
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B1.- Biggest difference imo

B2.- If Manning doesn't retire they are in a world of hurt imo
 
JB, you prove my point. 4 yrs of Elway as GM are superior to Rick Smith and Kubiak's tenure with the Texans. How many of Denver's top talent players were did Elway inherit and how many has he drafted or brought in? Remember their QB situation - they addressed it, and they drafted one to develop. Peyton leaves and they have a QB to insert. Their free agents contribute, and in the rare event they don't or they are gone. The Texans provided Kubes and Smith the opportunity to develop, at the Texans expense. If Smith is still in charge, things here will probably remain the same.
 
Double Barrel said:
hehe...Let's see Manning put up a Hoyer-esque playoff performance and still win. If that happens, I'll be glad to eat crow. ;)

My rebellion was truly against the seemingly pervasive "only defense wins championships" attitude about the truism. Of course great defenses are a big part of teams that win it all.

But, Brian Hoyer just proved that great defense, in and of itself, cannot win even a single playoff game, much less a championship (and no, winning the division is not a championship. That's the NFL equivalent of a participation trophy as far as I'm concerned). The only reason this thread was started was pure unadulterated disgust at this franchise for making us suffer through that loser's highlight reel.

I'm still disgusted by it. The SB makes me glad the season is over and I can ignore the NFL until September.
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I think that defenses do win championships but cannot overcome epic level (spell that Hoyer-level) ineptitude on offense.
 
Flyingfish said:
JB, you prove my point. 4 yrs of Elway as GM are superior to Rick Smith and Kubiak's tenure with the Texans. How many of Denver's top talent players were did Elway inherit and how many has he drafted or brought in? Remember their QB situation - they addressed it, and they drafted one to develop. Peyton leaves and they have a QB to insert. Their free agents contribute, and in the rare event they don't or they are gone. The Texans provided Kubes and Smith the opportunity to develop, at the Texans expense. If Smith is still in charge, things here will probably remain the same.
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I understand what you are saying, and want to take nothing away from Elway. He's much superior to Smith. I was just pointing out that he and Kubiak started from a much higher level than Smith/Kubiak did here...

How dominant would that Broncos defense be without Miller? How far do you think they would have gone?
 
Flyingfish said:
JB, you prove my point. 4 yrs of Elway as GM are superior to Rick Smith and Kubiak's tenure with the Texans. How many of Denver's top talent players were did Elway inherit and how many has he drafted or brought in?
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Not a direct answer to your question but only 6 starters yesterday were on the team in the SB 2 years ago. That team is basically entirely Elway at this point.
 
infantrycak said:
Not a direct answer to your question but only 6 starters yesterday were on the team in the SB 2 years ago. That team is basically entirely Elway at this point.
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Not trying to argue differently, but a few key starters and how much depth were there prior?
 
JB said:
Not trying to argue differently, but a few key starters and how much depth were there prior?
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Was just throwing that out there since they said it during the game.

But I'd bet not many people remain from the team Elway took over. He's been aggressive.
 
JB said:
I understand what you are saying, and want to take nothing away from Elway. He's much superior to Smith. I was just pointing out that he and Kubiak started from a much higher level than Smith/Kubiak did here...

How dominant would that Broncos defense be without Miller? How far do you think they would have gone?
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Elway's first year in the Denver Front Office (which was actually 2011 as Director of Player Personnel) followed a 4-12 2010 Broncos season. It also followed four years of being .500 or below and out of the playoffs. It's a little hard to compare to the first four years of the Texans existence, but to say Denver was at a "Much higher level" after the 2010 season isn't something I completely agree with.
 
JB said:
TBF, Elway has been in Denver as GM only 4 years, it's Kubiak's first. Let's not act like they were building an expansion team here...
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The difference is Elway was willing to do things that were traumatic.
 
ChampionTexan said:
Elway's first year in the Denver Front Office (which was actually 2011 as Director of Player Personnel) followed a 4-12 2010 Broncos season. It also followed four years of being .500 or below and out of the playoffs. It's a little hard to compare to the first four years of the Texans existence, but to say Denver was at a "Much higher level" after the 2010 season isn't something I completely agree with.
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Close. They were 9-7, 7-9, 8-8 and 8-8 in those four years. And the 6 years before that they had all winning seasons and multiple playoff appearances. And that four year stretch was only 7 years removed from back-to-back Super Bowl Championships. So yes, I would consider a four year .500 record "lull" from a decade level of success with two SB's to be a much higher starting point than the 2-14 season, 18-46 expansion franchise and David Carr that Kubiak inherited from the Texans. Night and day in fact.
 
sandman said:
Close. They were 9-7, 7-9, 8-8 and 8-8 in those four years. And the 6 years before that they had all winning seasons and multiple playoff appearances. And that four year stretch was only 7 years removed from back-to-back Super Bowl Championships. So yes, I would consider a four year .500 record "lull" from a decade level of success with two SB's to be a much higher starting point than the 2-14 season, 18-46 expansion franchise and David Carr that Kubiak inherited from the Texans. Night and day in fact.
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2010 4-12
2009 8-8
2008 8-8
2007 7-9

And I'll just leave the "only 7 years removed" comment alone.
 
infantrycak said:
Was just throwing that out there since they said it during the game.

But I'd bet not many people remain from the team Elway took over. He's been aggressive.
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Agressiveness is what it takes to be a consistent SB contender.

The McNair's could learn a thing or two, If they cared.
 
sandman said:
Close. They were 9-7, 7-9, 8-8 and 8-8 in those four years. And the 6 years before that they had all winning seasons and multiple playoff appearances. And that four year stretch was only 7 years removed from back-to-back Super Bowl Championships. So yes, I would consider a four year .500 record "lull" from a decade level of success with two SB's to be a much higher starting point than the 2-14 season, 18-46 expansion franchise and David Carr that Kubiak inherited from the Texans. Night and day in fact.
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In 8 yrs the Texans didn't sniff the SB under Rick/Gary.

Still haven't in the 2 yrs after Kubiak. But all is good because McNair said Rick is doing a fine job.
 
ChampionTexan said:
2010 4-12
2009 8-8
2008 8-8
2007 7-9

And I'll just leave the "only 7 years removed" comment alone.
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OK, I read that wrong. I thought you were saying the 4-12 season followed a four year period.

And fine. Leave any recent significant historical success out of the equation. There is still a vast difference between an established franchise going 27-37 in a four year lean period and an expansion franchise going 18-46 in the first four years of existence.
 
sandman said:
OK, I read that wrong. I thought you were saying the 4-12 season followed a four year period.

And fine. Leave any recent significant historical success out of the equation. There is still a vast difference between an established franchise going 27-37 in a four year lean period and an expansion franchise going 18-46 in the first four years of existence.
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Yep, the biggest difference is who runs the team.
 
infantrycak said:
Not a direct answer to your question but only 6 starters yesterday were on the team in the SB 2 years ago. That team is basically entirely Elway at this point.
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Okay, this is a bit misleading, as both Von Miller and Derek Wolfe are excluded as they were both on IR when the 2014 Super Bowl (2013 season) was played. Also, I don't know that Chris Harris was on IR at the time, but he was a starter all through the 2013 season, but didn't play in the 2014 SB due to injury.

The flip side is that if you look at who's left from before Elway joined the Denver front office, it's a very short list. Those players who were on the roster prior to Elway taking over his current position include Demaryius Thomas, Virgil Greene, Chris Harris, Ryan Clady, Von Miller, Britton Colquitt, and David Bruton. That's 7 of 53 guys. If you give Elway credit for his first year with the Broncos (Director of Player Personnel), that drops Greene, Harris, and Miller from the list and drops the pre-Elway players to 4, and two of those guys (Clady, Bruton) were on IR for yesterdays game - so 2 pre-Elway players in Super Bowl 50 - Demaryius Thomas and the punter.
 
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Which is not entirely exceptional. IIRC in the 4th year under Kubiak only AJ and Kris Brown remained from Capers and in the 5th only AJ.

Which to segue to something semi-related is what pisses me off about this laissez-faire attitude of OB and many posters as if "this team" will be around just waiting for a QB to plug in 2 (well already 2 in), 3, 4... etc. years down the road. It won't.

QB is a longevity position in an NFL of firefly careers. Get him and let people circulate in and out around him. We're doing it bass ackwards - trying to build just the right set of fireflies to then add a QB who will take 2-3 years to get up to speed by which time 3/4's of the 'just right' fireflies will be gone.
 
infantrycak said:
Which is not entirely exceptional. IIRC in the 4th year under Kubiak only AJ and Kris Brown remained from Capers and in the 5th only AJ.

Which to segue to something semi-related is what pisses me off about this laissez-faire attitude of OB and many posters as if "this team" will be around just waiting for a QB to plug in 2 (well already 2 in), 3, 4... etc. years down the road. It won't.

QB is a longevity position in an NFL of firefly careers. Get him and let people circulate in and out around him. We're doing it bass ackwards.
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Exactly. While we're jerking off over the QB position we (meaning the Texans) are in the process of burning careers to the ground. This morning at my office we sat around talking Super Bowl, "Defense winning Championships" and Von Miller/JJ Watt comparisons. We started talking about the stats JJ's piled up and guys were talking about how next year he should get 20 sacks again. Seriously? How long does anyone continue at this pace? Watt has played 5 seasons and 4 of them were absolutely ******* EPIC. It's very possible his best years are behind him already. In 5 years he's played 16 games every single season. That's not going to go on forever.

I have at times bought into the idea that getting a QB was something you could do in your own good time but after giving it a lot of thought it's more like getting a QB is something you do at any cost. To do otherwise isn't even "just standing still". It's actively pissing away your existing players careers. If the Texans believe that there's a real franchise QB sitting in this draft I wouldn't be pissed if they traded up to get him even if the cost was high. Luck, Bortles, and Marriota. The rest of the AFC South is building around their guy. Somebody down on Kirby better wake the **** up.
 
sandman said:
I'm honestly not even sure what point you are making.
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Point is the Broncos are being run correctly by Elway. Winning a SB is the only thing for Elway that counts. The Texans not so much.

I'm very happy Gary/Wade got hooked up with a winner.
 
steelbtexan said:
Point is the Broncos are being run correctly by Elway. Winning a SB is the only thing for Elway that counts. The Texans not so much.

I'm very happy Gary/Wade got hooked up with a winner.
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Elway basically showed how inept the McNair's are at running an NFL franchise from the standpoint of an on the field product

dream_team said:
Broncos are an elite defense with a crappy offense. Aren't the Texans pretty much building the same type of team?
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That is exactly the team Kubiak and Wade had put together before being unceremoniously kicked to the curb.
 
steelbtexan said:
With better FO leadership, that puts winning 1st.
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TBH, in my opinion, the only difference between the Texans and Broncos this season was the coaching. Don't get me wrong, I like BOB, but he's still learning on the job and I'm willing to be somewhat patient with him.

Kubiak understood better the strengths & weaknesses of his team.
 
Texian said:
Elway basically showed how inept the McNair's are at running an NFL franchise from the standpoint of an on the field product

That is exactly the team Kubiak and Wade had put together before being unceremoniously kicked to the curb.
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Elway showed how inept the McNair's are at running an NFL franchise from the standpoint of an on the field product by having exactly the team Kubiak and Wade had put together before being fired?
 
ChampionTexan said:
Elway showed how inept the McNair's are at running an NFL franchise from the standpoint of an on the field product by having exactly the team Kubiak and Wade had put together before being fired?
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Exactly, Elway Hired them and McNair Fired them AND Elway has final say on the 53 man roster Kubiak, A BIG DIFFERENCE.

Imagine if you will if McNair did not have a temper tantrum on the plane ride home, a calmer head prevailed and patience won out. A calm prudent logical mind would know that Schuab was the problem that needed to be fixed. Now imagine if the Texans had drafted Blake Bortles and had kept Kubiak and Wade.
 
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Texian said:
Exactly, Elway Hired them and McNair Fired them AND Elway has final say on the 53 man roster Kubiak, A BIG DIFFERENCE.

Imagine if you will if McNair did not have a temper tantrum on the plane ride home, a calmer head prevailed and patience won out. A calm prudent logical mind would know that Schuab was the problem that needed to be fixed. Now imagine if the Texans had drafted Blake Bortles and had kept Kubiak and Wade.
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I disagree. McNair's biggest mistake with the 2014 season was not completely cleaning house and getting rid of Rick when everyone else was shown the door.

I'm a Kubiak fan, and I'm very happy for him that he's got a ring as Head Coach, but it was time for him to move on - for both his sake and the Texans.
 
dream_team said:
TBH, in my opinion, the only difference between the Texans and Broncos this season was the coaching. Don't get me wrong, I like BOB, but he's still learning on the job and I'm willing to be somewhat patient with him.

Kubiak understood better the strengths & weaknesses of his team.
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How many pro bowlers were on Denver? Not that being a pro bowler is the be all end all.

I'm pretty sure Wade would disagree with you on the talent level of the defenses.

On offense Give me any QB over Hoyer. I like Anderson/Hillman over Blue/Grimes at RB. TE's Green/OD > any of the crap that the Texans ran out there last yr. WR's Thomas/Sanders/Norwood are better than Nuk/Shorts/Washington. OL's were about equal. IMHO

Feel free to disagree, I respect your opinion.
 
dream_team said:
TBH, in my opinion, the only difference between the Texans and Broncos this season was the coaching. Don't get me wrong, I like BOB, but he's still learning on the job and I'm willing to be somewhat patient with him.

Kubiak understood better the strengths & weaknesses of his team.
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I don't believe there's any way Rick Smith would ever have gotten Ware & Talib here for what they signed in Denver. We don't have that element that makes guys like that sign here. The thing that makes them believe they can win, much less win it all.

We've got to build through the draft. & until we get to the point where Connor Barwin or Brooks Reed are willing to forgo that over valued free agency money to be part of something special,then we don't have a chance.

We may be on the right track, Kareem stayed for less money. Mallett signed here for less money... then that went to he'll, but that's not the point. We need our players to want to be here for more than just the money. They need to feel like they are on the right track. It doesn't matter what they say in public, we need to watch what they do.

Losing our players to FA is one thing. Watch Wilfork. If he comes back the same out of shape player we had last season... that will tell us what he's here for. If he makes the team, that'll tell us about O'b & how this team is run.
 
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Texian said:
Exactly, Elway Hired them and McNair Fired them AND Elway has final say on the 53 man roster Kubiak, A BIG DIFFERENCE.

Imagine if you will if McNair did not have a temper tantrum on the plane ride home, a calmer head prevailed and patience won out. A calm prudent logical mind would know that Schuab was the problem that needed to be fixed. Now imagine if the Texans had drafted Blake Bortles and had kept Kubiak and Wade.
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Or if they traded up for Bridgewater for that matter.
 
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dream_team said:
Broncos are an elite defense with a crappy offense. Aren't the Texans pretty much building the same type of team?
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Yes, but I would have a lot more faith in Kubiak being able to get Denver's offense going than O'Brien with the Texans offense. Both have been heralded as being good OC's, however Kubiak was able to consistently get the Texans into being a top 10 Offense. OB hasn't been able to get us above the shitty mark yet.
 
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JCTexan said:
Yes, but I would have a lot more faith in Kubiak being able to get Denver's offense going than O'Brien with the Texans offense. Both have been heralded as being good OC's, however Kubiak was able to consistently get the Texans into being a top 10 Offense. OB hasn't been able to get us above the shitty mark yet.
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I'm betting you see a big bounce out of the Broncos O next year with Osweiler as the offseason and full time starter (assuming they get Osweiler re-signed).
 
Texian said:
Exactly, Elway Hired them and McNair Fired them AND Elway has final say on the 53 man roster Kubiak, A BIG DIFFERENCE.

Imagine if you will if McNair did not have a temper tantrum on the plane ride home, a calmer head prevailed and patience won out. A calm prudent logical mind would know that Schuab was the problem that needed to be fixed. Now imagine if the Texans had drafted Blake Bortles and had kept Kubiak and Wade.
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Lol. So let me get this straight. You're now saying Kubiak shouldn't of been fired? That it was a mistake?
 
I believe that the Gary Kubiak who led the Houston Texans from 2006-2013 would not have become the HC we see in Denver had he stayed here. In this environment he had plateaued and wasn't growing anymore. He was in a rut and looked burned out. I think he had to get fired, go to Baltimore, and see how another HC who has had success did things before he could grow and even then he fell into a great situation. An almost perfect situation really. Had he stayed we'd be no better off than we are now. Some things that are broken would be working but some things that work now would be broken.

I still think the Texans made the right decision moving on. Maybe blew the call on not sending the GM out the door with him and still not sure about the new guy (OB) but Gary had done all he was going to do here.
 
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infantrycak said:
I'm betting you see a big bounce out of the Broncos O next year with Osweiler as the offseason and full time starter (assuming they get Osweiler re-signed).
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& provided Osweiler isn't a bonehead.

He is in a very good situation, but some folk can't help but look a gift horse in the mouth.
 
thunderkyss said:
I don't believe there's any way Rick Smith would ever have gotten Ware & Talib here for what they signed in Denver. We don't have that element that makes guys like that sign here. The thing that makes them believe they can win, much less win it all.

We've got to build through the draft. & until we get to the point where Connor Barwin or Brooks Reed are willing to forgo that over valued free agency money to be part of something special,then we don't have a chance.

We may be on the right track, Kareem stayed for less money. Mallett signed here for less money... then that went to he'll, but that's not the point. We need our players to want to be here for more than just the money. They need to feel like they are on the right track. It doesn't matter what they say in public, we need to watch what they do.

Losing our players to FA is one thing. Watch Wilfork. If he comes back the same out of shape player we had last season... that will tell us what he's here for. If he makes the team, that'll tell us about O'b & how this team is run.
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Well, they need to get the guy that can get the Ware/Talib's here. Although Talib isn't Texans worthy.
 
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