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By the numbers: the NFL could be sleeping on Watson’s receivers

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
"Deshaun Watson had high praise for Texans WR Will Fuller and the stats make it clear why he's a fan. Looming free agency and other questions surround one of the league's most dynamic wide receivers. John Granato and Lance Zierlein of ESPN Houston weigh in."


I've got a friend that is convince that the WR corps is going to be better this year. I think the potential is there, but I'm not convinced that we'll be lucky enough to keep them healthy all year.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
So basically we swapped (cumulatively) a true #1 for a high level #2 (to pair with our incumbent high level #2) and a legit slot.. the latter of which we've never had and may be as important as any component to our young qb, and this offense's, success.

And I gotta admit I think I kinda maybe prefer the 2020 lineup just a bit more..

2019-
DeAndre Hopkins
Will Fuller
Kenny Stills
KeKe Coutee

2020-
Will Fuller
Brandin Cooks
Randall Cobb
Kenny Stills

..and I say that as a huge DHop fan. I'm not entirely in love with it, but I'm open to it woo'ing me.

But I also have to agree with DB, as it's almost written law at this point, that you can't size these moves up without mentioning the importance of health during the season, so there's always that.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I don't mind the receiving corps and can see the arguments in favor of it. My issue is simply get the right value or win trades, don't leak value with every move. So with better trades and a little lower offers for some of these guys, we would have more draft capital and cap space and still have the guys he wanted
You're worth what you're worth on the trade market.

Some here just value Hopkins more than NFL GM's do. He was on the trade market for over a yr.
 

KA4Texan

Weirdo Mode Engaged
Contributor's Club
IIRC Schaub in his prime with the Texans was right up there in numbers with Manning and Brady.

The numbers can lie.

Until they show they can stay healthy and live up to their potential in a Texans jersey.... meh. I was never really good with numbers... or I would have loved math.
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
So basically we swapped (cumulatively) a true #1 for a high level #2 (to pair with our incumbent high level #2) and a legit slot.. the latter of which we've never had and may be as important as any component to our young qb, and this offense's, success.

And I gotta admit I think I kinda maybe prefer the 2020 lineup just a bit more..

2019-
DeAndre Hopkins
Will Fuller
Kenny Stills
KeKe Coutee

2020-
Will Fuller
Brandin Cooks
Randall Cobb
Kenny Stills

..and I say that as a huge DHop fan. I'm not entirely in love with it, but I'm open to it woo'ing me.

But I also have to agree with DB, as it's almost written law at this point, that you can't size these moves up without mentioning the importance of health during the season, so there's always that.
To me it’s not about whether the group is better with or without Nuk. Trades happen, players move, that’s the business. This 2020 group could go on to be the greatest WR group in the history of the game, and that still won’t diminish how horrible of a deal the Nuk trade was.

That said, it’s done and there’s nothing anyone can do about it but move on. So I hope who we have now works wonders. A ton of health concerns raises a tremendous amount of doubt though. That and the guy designing the offense.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
To me it’s not about whether the group is better with or without Nuk. Trades happen, players move, that’s the business. This 2020 group could go on to be the greatest WR group in the history of the game, and that still won’t diminish how horrible of a deal the Nuk trade was.

That said, it’s done and there’s nothing anyone can do about it but move on. So I hope who we have now works wonders. A ton of health concerns raises a tremendous amount of doubt though. That and the guy designing the offense.
I've never agreed with the value in the singular DHop deal, which is part of why I addressed the cumulative result rather than just that one trade. I dislike how that was conducted then and I still do..

Seemed to me when making that post this thread was more focused on what we're left to line up with post-offseason moves, that's all.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
If healthy they wont miss Nuk.

When you figure in Blacklock, fans will miss Nuk. But the team will be better if he can stay healthy.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
So basically we swapped (cumulatively) a true #1 for a high level #2 (to pair with our incumbent high level #2) and a legit slot.. the latter of which we've never had and may be as important as any component to our young qb, and this offense's, success.

And I gotta admit I think I kinda maybe prefer the 2020 lineup just a bit more..

2019-
DeAndre Hopkins
Will Fuller
Kenny Stills
KeKe Coutee

2020-
Will Fuller
Brandin Cooks
Randall Cobb
Kenny Stills

..and I say that as a huge DHop fan. I'm not entirely in love with it, but I'm open to it woo'ing me.

But I also have to agree with DB, as it's almost written law at this point, that you can't size these moves up without mentioning the importance of health during the season, so there's always that.
Just one quibble .... Hopkins played out of the slot an awful lot. If he isn't a legit slot then I don't know who is.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Top notch thread DB, good stuff.

1. We got rid of one of our iron men for a veteran and a concussion away to early retirement. Now everyone is playing the what if game with this entire unit lol.
2. I can not believe anyone would say or think you’re worth what you’re worth on the market. That is not true in this case. The Texans got hosed again. I bet if this was RS making this type of trade I can imagine what would’ve been said.

3. Since we’re playing this if game, I’m going to say this again. If Fuller stays healthy, he will be Watson new Hopkins. He will more and likely lead the team in receptions, yards and targets.

4. If Healthy 2019 unit could’ve been top of the league.
 
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CWTexansFan

King Deplorable
Contributor's Club
Top notch thread DB, good stuff.

1. We got rid of one of our iron men for a veteran and a concussion away to early retirement. Now everyone is playing the what if game with this entire unit lol.
2. I can not believe anyone would say or think you’re worth what you’re worth on the market. That is not true in this case. The Texans got hosed again. I bet if this was RA making this type of trade I can imagine what would’ve been said.

3. Since we’re playing this if game, I’m going to say this again. If Fuller stays healthy, he will be Watson new Hopkins. He will more and likely lead the team in receptions, yards and targets.

4. If Healthy 2019 unit could’ve been top of the league.
Who is ra? Egyptian sun god?
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Top notch thread DB, good stuff.

1. We got rid of one of our iron men for a veteran and a concussion away to early retirement. Now everyone is playing the what if game with this entire unit lol.
2. I can not believe anyone would say or think you’re worth what you’re worth on the market. That is not true in this case. The Texans got hosed again. I bet if this was RS making this type of trade I can imagine what would’ve been said.

3. Since we’re playing this if game, I’m going to say this again. If Fuller stays healthy, he will be Watson new Hopkins. He will more and likely lead the team in receptions, yards and targets.

4. If Healthy 2019 unit could’ve been top of the league.
Tricky Rick wouldn't have traded D-Hop for a RB , he would have traded him for a cornerback.

I don't know about WFV being the go to guy , I just don't see him as a high volume target.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Tricky Rick wouldn't have traded D-Hop for a RB , he would have traded him for a cornerback.

I don't know about WFV being the go to guy , I just don't see him as a high volume target.
Reason why I’m saying that is because Watson targeted him a lot in quite a few games . When he was healthy of course.

And now he’s e telling the world Fuller is a number one receiver in this league. That comment right there should let us know, he going to feed Fuller.
 
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Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
Just one quibble .... Hopkins played out of the slot an awful lot. If he isn't a legit slot then I don't know who is.
Hop was/is terrific no matter where you line him up, and you're correct he was used in the slot quite a bit, that's all fair. But I'm talking about a wr corps with a legit slot wr that is assigned to and focused on that position specifically with a full compliment of outside receivers; ie not our number 1 x-wr moonlighting as a slot for temporary match-up purposes.

A guy (Cobb) who can be the quick underneath release target opposite what the play is attempting to gain downfield (Fuller, Cooks). Really attacking as much of the field as possible.
 

KoolAid Sipper

Waterboy
You really have to look at this as a whole. Hopkins the individual is not going to be replaced, no one on this team has his talent and that talent is above the individual talent of anyone in the current group. However, as a whole I think the combined talents of the group are better than last year. As many have said the $M question is will that equate to parallel or increased production.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Fuller was a high volume target at Notre Dame. He just needs to stay on the field. That’s the million dollar question, can he finally play a full season?
Do you think WFV can hold up (Injuries) for a full season now that he has had a full healthy offseason to workout?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Tricky Rick wouldn't have traded D-Hop for a RB , he would have traded him for a cornerback.

I don't know about WFV being the go to guy , I just don't see him as a high volume target.
Would he have traded Nuk for a highly rated draftable interior pass rusher, a vet WR who has played in 2 0f the last 3 SB's and a former all pro RB? Plus the opportunity to move up to the top of the 4th rd?
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
We'll miss Nuk, no doubt about it. But I'm done dwelling on a rotten deal and the only time I plan to revisit the subject is when we are analyzing O'Brien's job as a GM.

2020 is here so I'm more interested at this point with what we've got now. Ultimately what matters is results. So if this scheme can consistently produce with this group of WRs, I'll be content.

Thought this was an interesting one:


Why Randall Cobb might be just what Deshaun Watson and Texans need

During his time with the Houston Texans, Deshaun Watson has never had a receiver like Randall Cobb.

Yes, he’s had DeAndre Hopkins, an All-Pro for the past three seasons, and, when healthy, the explosive Will Fuller. He's had deep threats, including the addition of Kenny Stills last year. But in his first three NFL seasons, Watson hasn’t had a reliable slot receiver, a player to get the ball to quickly.

Full article
This was great to read, as well:

For all the ways Watson protects himself by using his mobility to scramble and escape pressure, he can also do so by making higher-percentage throws to Cobb. In 2019, Watson completed 75.2% of passes he threw in 2.5 seconds or less, which ranked fifth in the NFL.

Not long after Cobb signed, he told reporters that one of the biggest things he can add to the Texans’ offense is his chemistry with Watson because he will “be able to learn what he likes and show him what I'm good at and just being able to communicate and be on the same page.”
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I understand that but no one can predict or 100 % say if a player with a injury history will be injury free the next season.
Nothing in life is guaranteed, but I try to make decisions based off of knowledge and these valuable members have great knowledge in this field. I'm just asking him for the odds of a healthy offseason working out WFV being able to stay healthy next yr.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
We'll miss Nuk, no doubt about it. But I'm done dwelling on a rotten deal and the only time I plan to revisit the subject is when we are analyzing O'Brien's job as a GM.

2020 is here so I'm more interested at this point with what we've got now. Ultimately what matters is results. So if this scheme can consistently produce with this group of WRs, I'll be content.

Thought this was an interesting one:




This was great to read, as well:

For all the ways Watson protects himself by using his mobility to scramble and escape pressure, he can also do so by making higher-percentage throws to Cobb. In 2019, Watson completed 75.2% of passes he threw in 2.5 seconds or less, which ranked fifth in the NFL.

Not long after Cobb signed, he told reporters that one of the biggest things he can add to the Texans’ offense is his chemistry with Watson because he will “be able to learn what he likes and show him what I'm good at and just being able to communicate and be on the same page.”
Yes, a legit slot..
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
Do you think WFV can hold up (Injuries) for a full season now that he has had a full healthy offseason to workout?
I believe he had double groin surgery. From my opinion/perspective, I’m not sure the recovery time for the surgery he had. We’ll have to ask Doc. If he has adequate time to recover and then to actually begin training he could have a shot. Additionally if (and this is definitely an if) the groin surgery helped correct an issue that was causing a compensation issue that could help him in staying healthy. From a non medical perspective, think of a young tree that is being supported by 2 guy wires on either side. If you take one of the guy wires and crank it tightly it will pull the tree out of whack. This situation can create issues because muscles have what’s call a length tension relationship. This just means that muscles function optimally at certain lengths. If they get too long of too short they’re not as strong and therefore cannot handle the forces that they could under normal condition. This is thought to be a contributing factor in hamstring injuries in particular. If they pelvis is tilted too far anteriorly it can put a stretch load on the hamstrings. There’s a phase in sprinting where the hamstrings very rapidly stretched (just prior to contacting the ground), so if the length tension relationship was altered by a pelvis that is tilted too far anteriorly it could put the hamstrings at a greater risk of injury. The groin muscles could be talking about the adductors or hip flexors which if tight could alter pelvic position. I don’t know what he had repaired or what the issue was so I’m just pointing out a scenario.

Im hopeful they get Fuller figured out because when healthy he’s really good and definitely a difference maker. We really need him to be healthy and productive this year
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Hop was/is terrific no matter where you line him up, and you're correct he was used in the slot quite a bit, that's all fair. But I'm talking about a wr corps with a legit slot wr that is assigned to and focused on that position specifically with a full compliment of outside receivers; ie not our number 1 x-wr moonlighting as a slot for temporary match-up purposes.

A guy (Cobb) who can be the quick underneath release target opposite what the play is attempting to gain downfield (Fuller, Cooks). Really attacking as much of the field as possible.

Fair enough.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I believe he had double groin surgery. From my opinion/perspective, I’m not sure the recovery time for the surgery he had. We’ll have to ask Doc. If he has adequate time to recover and then to actually begin training he could have a shot. Additionally if (and this is definitely an if) the groin surgery helped correct an issue that was causing a compensation issue that could help him in staying healthy. From a non medical perspective, think of a young tree that is being supported by 2 guy wires on either side. If you take one of the guy wires and crank it tightly it will pull the tree out of whack. This situation can create issues because muscles have what’s call a length tension relationship. This just means that muscles function optimally at certain lengths. If they get too long of too short they’re not as strong and therefore cannot handle the forces that they could under normal condition. This is thought to be a contributing factor in hamstring injuries in particular. If they pelvis is tilted too far anteriorly it can put a stretch load on the hamstrings. There’s a phase in sprinting where the hamstrings very rapidly stretched (just prior to contacting the ground), so if the length tension relationship was altered by a pelvis that is tilted too far anteriorly it could put the hamstrings at a greater risk of injury. The groin muscles could be talking about the adductors or hip flexors which if tight could alter pelvic position. I don’t know what he had repaired or what the issue was so I’m just pointing out a scenario.

Im hopeful they get Fuller figured out because when healthy he’s really good and definitely a difference maker. We really need him to be healthy and productive this year
Thanks for the reply.

All of this stuff is great knowledge. It's all connected together and it appears that of one thing is slightly injured it can lead to other greater injuries.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Reason why I’m saying that is because Watson targeted him a lot in quite a few games . When he was healthy of course.

And now he’s e telling the world Fuller is a number one receiver in this league. That comment right there should let us know, he going to feed Fuller.
Fuller dropped the dreads and hit camp noticeably bulked up this year......Dude's getting ready for the pounding & I suspect he knows he's going to be counted on more this year now that Nuk is gone.

1597162259033.png

Outside of his hammy last year, the injuries he has sustained over his career have been more or less freak accidents. & unlike in years past when he went down & we didn't have a legit option that could do what he does..Not even Nuk, This coming year we have guys ready to step up so that there's not a whole lot of fall off like in years past. Cooks, Stills are all burners too.....All of this isn't even counting Coutee whose not exactly slow either. If he goes out with another injury this year, we are more than prepared.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Fuller dropped the dreads and hit camp noticeably bulked up this year......Dude's getting ready for the pounding & I suspect he knows he's going to be counted on more this year now that Nuk is gone.

View attachment 6481

Outside of his hammy last year, the injuries he has sustained over his career have been more or less freak accidents. & unlike in years past when he went down & we didn't have a legit option that could do what he does..Not even Nuk, This coming year we have guys ready to step up so that there's not a whole lot of fall off like in years past. Cooks, Stills are all burners too.....All of this isn't even counting Coutee whose not exactly slow either. If he goes out with another injury this year, we are more than prepared.
I'm looking forward to seeing a guy like Counter improve now that he's going to get to see how a hard-working guy like Cobb handles his business.
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
Thanks for the reply.

All of this stuff is great knowledge. It's all connected together and it appears that of one thing is slightly injured it can lead to other greater injuries.
Thanks! If you read McClain's article on Fuller this morning it talks about the exact situation I was describing above. When he talks about working on his posture and having pain in his low back when standing that's the exact situation I was talking about. It sounds like Will has an excessive anterior tilt of his pelvis. Truth be told most, if not all, sprinters have an anterior tilt to some degree. Its like most things in life, a little tilt can actually be performance enhancing but too much can cause numerous issues. The tricky thing with hamstring injuries is they're typically multi-factorial. Position and posture are really important but its one factor in the equation. Hopefully they are looking at his mechanics when running and testing the strength of his musculature in his hips and thighs. Poor mechanics and muscle imbalances can also lead to problems, especially in an athlete as explosive as Will is
 

Earl34

Veteran
Thanks! If you read McClain's article on Fuller this morning it talks about the exact situation I was describing above. When he talks about working on his posture and having pain in his low back when standing that's the exact situation I was talking about. It sounds like Will has an excessive anterior tilt of his pelvis. Truth be told most, if not all, sprinters have an anterior tilt to some degree. Its like most things in life, a little tilt can actually be performance enhancing but too much can cause numerous issues. The tricky thing with hamstring injuries is they're typically multi-factorial. Position and posture are really important but its one factor in the equation. Hopefully they are looking at his mechanics when running and testing the strength of his musculature in his hips and thighs. Poor mechanics and muscle imbalances can also lead to problems, especially in an athlete as explosive as Will is
Going into his 5th year, Fuller has played in 42 out of 64 possible games and we don't know the number of games he played and was not 100%. It seems that with some of the best trainers and medical staff at their disposal, why did it take the team or Fuller 5 years to analyze his posture?

 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
Going into his 5th year, Fuller has played in 42 out of 64 possible games and we don't know the number of games he played and was not 100%. It seems that with some of the best trainers and medical staff at their disposal, why did it take the team or Fuller 5 years to analyze his posture?

I'm not sure, it may have been a situation that slowly developed over time. Off the top of my head, a lot of his early injuries involved contact. He fractured his clavicle when a DB landed on him during a tackle, he broke his ribs when Savage threw him into a hit, and his ACL happened during a tackle that was nearly a horse collar. So a lot of those games missed were not due to muscular injuries.

From what I've read and heard about Fuller I think there are 2 issues that have hurt him. First, he had a rash of muscle injuries in the season after his ACL. Its important to remember, rehab isn't the same as training. You have to give injured/repaired tissue time to heal, once they have healed properly you can begin training. When you can run a sub 4.3 forty you can put tremendous forces on the body, he may not have had the necessary time to allow his body to recover from the acl and get his body ready to handle the rigors of the season.

Second, and this is speculative, there is a concept in training called force/velocity profiling. You basically analyze the 10yd splits of a 40yd dash and you can determine if the athlete is force dominant (think of a big strong powerful WR like Andre Johnson) or velocity dominant (think of smaller guys like Fuller or maybe Deshaun Jackson). This is useful information because it can give you a pathway to improvement for the athletes. If you show force dominance you need more velocity training. If you are velocity dominant you need more force/strength work. My guess with Fuller is that he is velocity dominant, and I'm basing this off his combine numbers - sub 4.3 forty but he only jumped 33" in the vertical jump. The VJ has a large force component. There was some early research that seemed to indicate that velocity dominant athletes were prone to hamstring issues. This was discussed at a seminar I attended in '16 or '17. I'm not sure what's come of that, if they definitely proven this or not. It's an interesting concept though and could apply to Fuller, especially if you combine the two scenarios, coming off an ACL and being a velocity dominant athlete.

BTW, Really like the new guy they hired Matt Van Dyke. He's a smart guy. I've followed his work for a while
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I'm not sure, it may have been a situation that slowly developed over time. Off the top of my head, a lot of his early injuries involved contact. He fractured his clavicle when a DB landed on him during a tackle, he broke his ribs when Savage threw him into a hit, and his ACL happened during a tackle that was nearly a horse collar. So a lot of those games missed were not due to muscular injuries.

From what I've read and heard about Fuller I think there are 2 issues that have hurt him. First, he had a rash of muscle injuries in the season after his ACL. Its important to remember, rehab isn't the same as training. You have to give injured/repaired tissue time to heal, once they have healed properly you can begin training. When you can run a sub 4.3 forty you can put tremendous forces on the body, he may not have had the necessary time to allow his body to recover from the acl and get his body ready to handle the rigors of the season.

Second, and this is speculative, there is a concept in training called force/velocity profiling. You basically analyze the 10yd splits of a 40yd dash and you can determine if the athlete is force dominant (think of a big strong powerful WR like Andre Johnson) or velocity dominant (think of smaller guys like Fuller or maybe Deshaun Jackson). This is useful information because it can give you a pathway to improvement for the athletes. If you show force dominance you need more velocity training. If you are velocity dominant you need more force/strength work. My guess with Fuller is that he is velocity dominant, and I'm basing this off his combine numbers - sub 4.3 forty but he only jumped 33" in the vertical jump. The VJ has a large force component. There was some early research that seemed to indicate that velocity dominant athletes were prone to hamstring issues. This was discussed at a seminar I attended in '16 or '17. I'm not sure what's come of that, if they definitely proven this or not. It's an interesting concept though and could apply to Fuller, especially if you combine the two scenarios, coming off an ACL and being a velocity dominant athlete.

BTW, Really like the new guy they hired Matt Van Dyke. He's a smart guy. I've followed his work for a while
Thanks for the info

The Texans are changing things for the better. (Van Dyke)
 
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En1gma57

Waterboy
"Deshaun Watson had high praise for Texans WR Will Fuller and the stats make it clear why he's a fan. Looming free agency and other questions surround one of the league's most dynamic wide receivers. John Granato and Lance Zierlein of ESPN Houston weigh in."


I've got a friend that is convince that the WR corps is going to be better this year. I think the potential is there, but I'm not convinced that we'll be lucky enough to keep them healthy all year.
I have seen many articles around that are similar to this thread. And a few saying Stills will be a key cog.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Yeah none of them wants to talk about what the kid did right and good. Only focuses on the negatives as well as pushing their agenda.
What has he been doing right? He's been very inconsistent over the last 9 games to be generous. Certainly not top 5 like some posters thread suggested.
 

CWTexansFan

King Deplorable
Contributor's Club
What has he been doing right? He's been very inconsistent over the last 9 games to be generous. Certainly not top 5 like some posters thread suggested.
Hopefully, the majority is right and dw4 turns it around with a new coach, but I have my doubts. We may have already ruined him.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Hopefully, the majority is right and dw4 turns it around with a new coach, but I have my doubts. We may have already ruined him.
I'm sure the BOB ruined him crowd will be out in full force. I've come to realize it can never be DW4 just wasn't that good.
 


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