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By the numbers: the NFL could be sleeping on Watson’s receivers

mws

Waterboy
Found these before I got tired of looking. I think the more interesting question would be how many of them won after a coaching change.

Bob Griese
Ken Stabler
Jim Plunkett
Phil Simms
Doug Williams
Jeff Hostetler
Mark Rypien
Steve Young
Brett Favre
John Elway
Kurt Warner
Trent Dilfer
Brad Johnson
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees
Aaron Rodgers
 

Earl34

Veteran
There were no problems with these guys until they arrived down on Kirby. Cooks/Cobb have always been very productive and Stills has been a starting level WR in the NFL for yrs.

But they get to Houston and we correctly see posts like this one. Wonder why? Hmmm
Cobb is on record that they needed to implement more of the quick game into the offense. Cobb also complained to O'Brien about the WR coaching. Cobb is also saying they need to use more formations and running the same plays out of different formations. So, a 10 year vet who have played on multiple teams recognizes there are some things that are not being done with this offense.

The thing to wonder about is why some of these basic concepts that the majority of posters have been wanting O'Brien to implement, a veteran WR says is not being done enough in the offense. Still wondering?

 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
Cooks - 14 games - 42 receptions on 72 targets for 583 yards and 2 touchdowns.
That’s something that really jumped out at me. 42 catches on 72 targets is not very good. And he’s worse than that so far this year, 10 catches, 21 targets.

I get bad throws from time to time, but there’s got to be something else going on to be that bad.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Cobb is on record that they needed to implement more of the quick game into the offense. Cobb also complained to O'Brien about the WR coaching. Cobb is also saying they need to use more formations and running the same plays out of different formations. So, a 10 year vet who have played on multiple teams recognizes there are some things that are not being done with this offense.

The thing to wonder about is why some of these basic concepts that the majority of posters have been wanting O'Brien to implement, a veteran WR says is not being done enough in the offense. Still wondering?

In all fairness, Cobb isn't saying these things aren't done in Houston. The question was how can he as a WR help reduce the sacks on Watson or help the run game.

The media turned it around as if it were some kind of indictment. I don't think that was Cobb's intent.
 

Earl34

Veteran
In all fairness, Cobb isn't saying these things aren't done in Houston. The question was how can he as a WR help reduce the sacks on Watson or help the run game.

The media turned it around as if it were some kind of indictment. I don't think that was Cobb's intent.
I think there are two separate conversations going on. The video was Cobb talking about reducing the predictability of the offense and the link was about reducing sacks.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
NFL years, man. Drafted 2011, 2013, 2014. . .these are considered middle aged in football years. And they sure play like old players. I see no burst, no separation, nothing that indicates anything special about any of them.

And Fuller, maybe not old, per say, but broken. Nuk would have had that catch in the endzone. Fuller is JAG. Nothing special about him, either.

So you believe Murray is better, but yet predict a 6-10 season. Okaaaaay. . .

The Texans would have not made the playoffs in 2019, much less win a playoff game in the 4th, without Watson. And before you reply with 51-7, yeah I get it, he needs to play defense, too, while also drawing his offensive plays in the dirt to overcome his braniac HC's crappy calls.
I was going to chime in but I do not want to come off like I’m bickering at another member or disrespecting them by finding their hot takes comical.

Murray has had two bad games in a row both resulting in losses for his ball club. The game against Detroit he threw three interceptions.
Murray: 919 yards 7 TDs 5 interceptions
Watson: 1092 yds 6 TDs 3 interceptions

My thing is since Watson wasn’t his choice. He will continue spew the same negative stuff verses backing our player up. He’s a Texan so how about pulling for the kid. We started a positive thread and dude still didn’t say anything good about Watson.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I was going to chime in but I do not want to come off like I’m bickering at another member or disrespecting them by finding their hot takes comical.

Murray has had two bad games in a row both resulting in losses for his ball club. The game against Detroit he threw three interceptions.
Murray: 919 yards 7 TDs 5 interceptions
Watson: 1092 yds 6 TDs 3 interceptions

My thing is since Watson wasn’t his choice. He will continue spew the same negative stuff verses backing our player up. He’s a Texan so how about pulling for the kid. We started a positive thread and dude still didn’t say anything good about Watson.
Like I said before I'm pulling for him because he is going to be here for atleast another 4 yrs.

In QB yrs there's a big difference between yr 2 and yr 4.

BTW, that DW4 /Josh Allen comparison doesn't look so crazy now does it?

I've heard nothing but crickets on that one and I expect Murray to turn out the same way.

Also, care to tell me what Clson QB has ever been successful in the NFL? The system doesn't translate well for QBs to the NFL.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Like I said before I'm pulling for him because he is going to be here for atleast another 4 yrs.

In QB yrs there's a big difference between yr 2 and yr 4.

BTW, that DW4 /Josh Allen comparison doesn't look so crazy now does it?

I've heard nothing but crickets on that one and I expect Murray to turn out the same way.

Also, care to tell me what Clson QB has ever been successful in the NFL? The system doesn't translate well for QBs to the NFL.
The guy that your GM/HC just gave a big fat contract to. :corrosion:
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Like I said before I'm pulling for him because he is going to be here for atleast another 4 yrs.

In QB yrs there's a big difference between yr 2 and yr 4.

BTW, that DW4 /Josh Allen comparison doesn't look so crazy now does it?

I've heard nothing but crickets on that one and I expect Murray to turn out the same way.

Also, care to tell me what Clson QB has ever been successful in the NFL? The system doesn't translate well for QBs to the NFL.
You need to realize that besides the RPO concepts that Clemson runs, the rest is simply another Spread/Air Rais system not unlike what Mahomes runs at TT.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You need to realize that besides the RPO concepts that Clemson runs, the rest is simply another Spread/Air Rais system not unlike what Mahomes runs at TT.
How many QBs from Clemson have ever been good in the NFL?

This is one reason to have doubts about Lawrence, although he's supremely talented.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
How many QBs from Clemson have ever been good in the NFL?

This is one reason to have doubts about Lawrence, although he's supremely talented.
Sweeny has only been a HC since 2009.
Quick, tell me which HC has had more than one QB suceeding in NFL in a 9 year span.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
How many QB's from Clemson have been in the NFL, and what does that have to do with anything?
Charlie Whitehurst/Taj Boyd off of the top of my head.

The point is the Clemson offense leaves QBs unprepared for the NFL and the system doesn't work in the NFL.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Charlie Whitehurst/Taj Boyd off of the top of my head.

The point is the Clemson offense leaves QBs unprepared for the NFL and the system doesn't work in the NFL.
Balloney, the RPO is copied everywhere in the NFL.

The main difference of Clemson's system ís the running game.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Your answers often come across as someone that just started watching football, which I assume are crafted to conform to your obvious bias. It is quite amusing.

I realize what the primary difference between us is with regards to Watson:

You have an affirmative believe system - i.e. blind faith - that he's always going to be mediocre (or worse). You believe it so much that you basically proselytize about it, appearing to be a football prophet predicting the future, and it very much becomes akin to your own quasi-football-religion. You are so convinced of your perspective that you seem to evangelize it in order to attract (and convince) fellow Watson-doubting believers.

I am, on the other hand, a football agnostic. I don't have a problem with saying "I don't know". I see the potential in Watson, but I do not pretend to have conclusive proof that he will (or will not) succeed in the NFL. He could bust out, or he could be a HoF, or somewhere in between. I simply don't know until it is history.
I don't think that's the case .... (other than having to wait for history to happen).

I can understand where he's coming from sharing his position to some degree.
It isn't a very popular position keeping one on the defensive about it while many fans chastise you for it , looking for every reason to blame someone else - the head coach , the play caller , the blocking , the pass catchers .... the Water Boy , always some excuse / deflection despite video and statistical evidence to the contrary.

.

Watson hasn't posted a game this year with a QBR over 60 and his last outing was a dismal 37.9 ... This is a statistical analysis of his impact on each play / game by an independent outlet. No bias in the numbers and takes into account play calling , down and distance as well as blocking , strength of opposing defense and game situations.

Watson's QBR for the season is 57.3 and PAA (Points against average replacement) is 1.1 .... Ryan Fitzpatrick is 75.1 & 15.3 for a scrubby 1-3 Miami team.

Watson hasn't had a single season where he was sacked on fewer than 8.8% of plays.
The lowest being last season 44/495 (8.88%) and this season is his highest % yet at 12.27% of passing plays ending in a sack.
We've all blamed the blocking in the past but ... the more I've broken down the all 22 , the more apparent it is that blocking isn't the problem on the vast majority of plays (yes there are outliers) - Its Watson holding the ball too long - Even opposing coaches have made statements to this effect (Harbaugh).
Mahomes has never had a season higher than 4.4% of passing plays ending in a sack.
Brees averages 4% for his career. Brady 4.98% for his career.

We keep blaming the blocking but no matter who's doing it , the results are similar.

Some blame the system - No One's Open! - but we've shown time and again video evidence to the contrary.

I'll be the first to admit , he has a lot of potential simply based off of athleticism. He's going to make his share of big plays but there's more than that to playing the QB position and his best attribute is also his worst enemy and teams have figured out how to use it against him and he hasn't made the adjustment. Until he does , we can expect more of the same - boom or bust - a big play here and there but otherwise consistent in negative plays and stalled drives giving the ball back to the opposition - That's not winning football.

Michael Vick .... that's who I compare him to. Exciting as hell to watch ....
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Yep, he ain't beating stupid good anytime soon.

Its the ultimate team sport .... they have to put a great team around him.

If the next coach can drill it into his head that the ball has to come out on time , I think you can win with a good team around him as he's got enough physical tools - Its adjusting that decision making process that will be the difference between average to very good.

They also need to rethink the type of pass catchers they replace this current group with - Give me great route runners with good hands over these speed guys that are average at best in those area's.
 

OptimisticTexan

Go Texans 1-1...Post OB!!!!!
Like I said before I'm pulling for him because he is going to be here for atleast another 4 yrs.

In QB yrs there's a big difference between yr 2 and yr 4.

BTW, that DW4 /Josh Allen comparison doesn't look so crazy now does it?

I've heard nothing but crickets on that one and I expect Murray to turn out the same way.

Also, care to tell me what Clson QB has ever been successful in the NFL? The system doesn't translate well for QBs to the NFL.
Besides solely identifying the QB in a comparison....do you ever take into consideration the rest of the team (coaches/players) surrounding said QB? You have to go to the wide view lens and look at the entire picture.

So, looking at the Watson/Allen comparison.....outside of Watson/Allen, where would the Texans outshine the Bills from coaching to position by position?

What you fail to realize or acknowledge.....when the Texans offense was forced to do things in Watson's wheelhouse, he could flatout move the ball at will on just about every team out there......even with his compliment of crappy assets. I can easily see what he's capable of but the Texans, with OB at the helm, just didn't want to keep pushing the envelope b/c OB was hellbent on making his way of ball control offense work.....even when it wasn't working.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Besides solely identifying the QB in a comparison....do you ever take into consideration the rest of the team (coaches/players) surrounding said QB? You have to go to the wide view lens and look at the entire picture.

So, looking at the Watson/Allen comparison.....outside of Watson/Allen, where would the Texans outshine the Bills from coaching to position by position?

What you fail to realize or acknowledge.....when the Texans offense was forced to do things in Watson's wheelhouse, he could flatout move the ball at will on just about every team out there......even with his compliment of crappy assets. I can easily see what he's capable of but the Texans, with OB at the helm, just didn't want to keep pushing the envelope b/c OB was hellbent on making his way of ball control offense work.....even when it wasn't working.
No. He never does when it comes to Watson. However, for anyone else:

There's this thingy called complementary football.
You crack me up. I'll be referencing this post in the near future.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Besides solely identifying the QB in a comparison....do you ever take into consideration the rest of the team (coaches/players) surrounding said QB? You have to go to the wide view lens and look at the entire picture.

So, looking at the Watson/Allen comparison.....outside of Watson/Allen, where would the Texans outshine the Bills from coaching to position by position?

What you fail to realize or acknowledge.....when the Texans offense was forced to do things in Watson's wheelhouse, he could flatout move the ball at will on just about every team out there......even with his compliment of crappy assets. I can easily see what he's capable of but the Texans, with OB at the helm, just didn't want to keep pushing the envelope b/c OB was hellbent on making his way of ball control offense work.....even when it wasn't working.

Coaching matters. Allen is being coached up while Watson pretty much have to go off script most of the time. That’s the biggest difference.
 
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Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Besides solely identifying the QB in a comparison....do you ever take into consideration the rest of the team (coaches/players) surrounding said QB? You have to go to the wide view lens and look at the entire picture.

I know you think we're nuts .... but I suggest you do just that - look at the wide view with All-22.

If / When you do , you wont think we're so nuts. There's dozens of plays that mirror those we broke down recently in other threads where guys are running wide open ... without being off schedule down and distance.

Many of the excuse narratives around here just don't stick when you look at the wide view.

There's so much you can't see on TV that you can with the wide view - I almost wish the league would broadcast that view somewhere.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
I know you think we're nuts .... but I suggest you do just that - look at the wide view with All-22.

If / When you do , you wont think we're so nuts. There's dozens of plays that mirror those we broke down recently in other threads where guys are running wide open ... without being off schedule down and distance.

Many of the excuse narratives around here just don't stick when you look at the wide view.

There's so much you can't see on TV that you can with the wide view - I almost wish the league would broadcast that view somewhere.
Never mind.
 

ButcherBear

Practice Squad
"Deshaun Watson had high praise for Texans WR Will Fuller and the stats make it clear why he's a fan. Looming free agency and other questions surround one of the league's most dynamic wide receivers. John Granato and Lance Zierlein of ESPN Houston weigh in."


I've got a friend that is convince that the WR corps is going to be better this year. I think the potential is there, but I'm not convinced that we'll be lucky enough to keep them healthy all year.
There is no sleeping on the Texan's receivers. They are bad. All of them. They should not be on an NFL teams.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Charlie Whitehurst/Taj Boyd off of the top of my head.

The point is the Clemson offense leaves QBs unprepared for the NFL and the system doesn't work in the NFL.
I'm bored and will play.

Using this logic, being a Patriots' assistant coach leaves them unprepared to be NFL HCs. As HCs, they've all been fired. They have never won a Super Bowl. They are not perennial playoff winners. They lack people skills and their versions of Belichick's EP offense has failed every where outside of Foxborough, MA....:kitten:
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I'm bored and will play.

Using this logic, being a Patriots' assistant coach leaves them unprepared to be NFL HCs. As HCs, they've all been fired. They have never won a Super Bowl. They are not perennial playoff winners. They lack people skills and their versions of Belichick's EP offense has failed every where outside of Foxborough, MA....:kitten:
Agreed

But the EP system or a version of it succeeded in Pittsburgh.

DW4 and the EP system will never work. (We can debate why) The question now is can DW4 succeed in any system and regardless of all of the videos you post or how you defend him, the answer is we don't know.

Difference between us is very simple, you're betting yes and I'm hoping you're right.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
There is no sleeping on the Texan's receivers. They are bad. All of them. They should not be on an NFL teams.
1 one of those Wr's has played in 2 of the last 3 SB'S. Another is very talented and can't stay healthy, another has played in the NFL for a decade and the 4th wr started for the Saints/ Dolphins but other than that yep, he sucks
 

Earl34

Veteran
I was watching this play action pass from the Vikings' game. At the 1:34 mark, it appears that Cousins have two guys open. However, that is not the intent of that play design. He has to hold the ball and let the routes develop.

It might also be what Cobb is referring to. If the OL or QB is struggling, call quicker routes to take advantage of the quicker, shorter routes that were open a the 1:34 mark.

 

Earl34

Veteran
Agreed

But the EP system or a version of it succeeded in Pittsburgh.

DW4 and the EP system will never work. (We can debate why) The question now is can DW4 succeed in any system and regardless of all of the videos you post or how you defend him, the answer is we don't know.

Difference between us is very simple, you're betting yes and I'm hoping you're right.
I don't recall any former Patriots' assistant becoming HC and running the EP system in Pittsburgh. Do you?
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Agreed

But the EP system or a version of it succeeded in Pittsburgh.

DW4 and the EP system will never work. (We can debate why) The question now is can DW4 succeed in any system and regardless of all of the videos you post or how you defend him, the answer is we don't know.

Difference between us is very simple, you're betting yes and I'm hoping you're right.
Steelers have run a Coryell system & the same power running scheme of pulling OL for decades.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
They're old. It happens. Stupid GMs sign over-the-hill players.

Why is Nuk so successful regardless of the QB? Who catches the ball matters as much as who is throwing it.

Symbiotic: denoting a mutually beneficial relationship between different people
Used to call that a healthy sexual relationship...
 

PapaL

Loose Screw
Cobb is the best receiver on this team. He runs the best routes and has the best hands. But he needs to be your #3 not your #1 or #2.

I love fuller, wish he was the man but he’s not and never will be.

I can’t figure out what Cooks problem is.

Stills can’t even break out of the pack with these guys.
They’re all the same guy at different points in their career; “if just” speed dudes with various warts (leg injuries, concussions, no hands). Cord Patterson is another in the league.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You're right! We don't know! Can you believe some say he won't succeed, regardless of HC!?
Everybody is entitled to their opinions after 4 years of what we've seen so far. If DW4 doesn't succeed under the new HC I'm sure the new narrative around these parts will be that BOB ruined DW4 instead of maybe he just wasn't that good. I guess most people don't like to be wrong and will go to great lengths to try to why they weren't wrong.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
They’re all the same guy at different points in their career; “if just” speed dudes with various warts (leg injuries, concussions, no hands). Cord Patterson is another in the league.
Patterson us doing very well after Belichick made him a RB and twama quit trying to make him a wr.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
I know you think we're nuts .... but I suggest you do just that - look at the wide view with All-22.

If / When you do , you wont think we're so nuts. There's dozens of plays that mirror those we broke down recently in other threads where guys are running wide open ... without being off schedule down and distance.

Many of the excuse narratives around here just don't stick when you look at the wide view.

There's so much you can't see on TV that you can with the wide view - I almost wish the league would broadcast that view somewhere.
The real problem comes in when the QB while on the field only sees the same thing the TV viewer sees, rather than the wide view.........i.e., "the big picture."
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
The real problem comes in when the QB while on the field only sees the same thing the TV viewer sees, rather than the wide view.........i.e., "the big picture."
If that's the case, O'Brien was even worse, MUCH MUCH worse than I thought.
I can't believe there's a HC/GM who would give such a QB that HUGE of a raise.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Patterson us doing very well after Belichick made him a RB and twama quit trying to make him a wr.
He is? Exactly what do you consider "doing very well"? With the Patriots, he had 21 catches and 42 runs. Last year with the Bears, in 16 games, he had 11 catches and 17 runs. Exactly what is he doing well?
 


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