Wish to make a one time donation? Make it here.

By the numbers: the NFL could be sleeping on Watson’s receivers

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
I believe he had double groin surgery. From my opinion/perspective, I’m not sure the recovery time for the surgery he had. We’ll have to ask Doc. If he has adequate time to recover and then to actually begin training he could have a shot. Additionally if (and this is definitely an if) the groin surgery helped correct an issue that was causing a compensation issue that could help him in staying healthy. From a non medical perspective, think of a young tree that is being supported by 2 guy wires on either side. If you take one of the guy wires and crank it tightly it will pull the tree out of whack. This situation can create issues because muscles have what’s call a length tension relationship. This just means that muscles function optimally at certain lengths. If they get too long of too short they’re not as strong and therefore cannot handle the forces that they could under normal condition. This is thought to be a contributing factor in hamstring injuries in particular. If they pelvis is tilted too far anteriorly it can put a stretch load on the hamstrings. There’s a phase in sprinting where the hamstrings very rapidly stretched (just prior to contacting the ground), so if the length tension relationship was altered by a pelvis that is tilted too far anteriorly it could put the hamstrings at a greater risk of injury. The groin muscles could be talking about the adductors or hip flexors which if tight could alter pelvic position. I don’t know what he had repaired or what the issue was so I’m just pointing out a scenario.

Im hopeful they get Fuller figured out because when healthy he’s really good and definitely a difference maker. We really need him to be healthy and productive this year
Great post!

Fuller underwent bilateral "sports hernia" surgery in January. At 8 month postop, there should be no doubt that he should be fully rehabbed. As I have posted on numerous occasions including re. Clowney, there is a study that demonstrates that ~86% of those developing a "sports hernia" have an underlying hip joint deformity, which if not corrected will continue to place the player at significant risk for lower limb/core instability which otisbean can elaborate on its known musculotendinous and ligamentous consequences.

Remember that Clowney originally underwent his bilateral "sports hernia" repairs in 2014 and then recently required surgery for recurrence of a "sports hernia." These type of core injuries have come to be so common in the NFL..........with weakening on one side, causing more stressing on the other..........and weakening the other side..........and vice versa................so surgeons now basically perform bilateral repairs routinely in order to avoid having to come back for the other side when it goes from weakened to overtly torn.

Limited studies demonstrate that ~90% of players return to play and usually close to their previous performance. But their careers are foreshortened compared to controls (those not having incurred a "sports hernia")............typically to injury. Fuller will likely carry increased risk of hamstring and other lower extremity injuries to the end of his career. The medical staff/trainers will need to routinely test the balance of his lower extremity muscles.............and adjust training accordingly in order to minimize further injury.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
This couldn't have anything to do with QB play?
It's most likely a little bit of everything: subpar QB play, lack of WR talent, poor scheme for the current roster, & overall terrible play calling.

My take is that SBs were won with Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Eli Manning, and Nick Foles. I cannot honestly put any of their talent above Watson's 'potential'.

Now, that said, the lesson with the above mentioned QBs is that good TEAMS were built around them. As a matter-of-fact, they mainly needed to be good game managers with an above-average play here or there. Hero ball was the exception, not the rule.

Of course, with Watson, my jury is still out (I hope for the best), but my confidence in this organization putting a championship caliber team around him has never been lower. Not only do I doubt this franchise, I have a firm belief that they are simply incapable of doing it.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
It's most likely a little bit of everything: subpar QB play, lack of WR talent, poor scheme for the current roster, & overall terrible play calling.

My take is that SBs were won with Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Eli Manning, and Nick Foles. I cannot honestly put any of their talent above Watson's 'potential'.

Now, that said, the lesson with the above mentioned QBs is that good TEAMS were built around them. As a matter-of-fact, they mainly needed to be good game managers with an above-average play here or there. Hero ball was the exception, not the rule.

Of course, with Watson, my jury is still out (I hope for the best), but my confidence in this organization putting a championship caliber team around him has never been lower. Not only do I doubt this franchise, I have a firm belief that they are simply incapable of doing it.
8
Why have the WRs been successful everywhere else they've been but not in Houston?
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
8
Why have the WRs been successful everywhere else they've been but not in Houston?
They're old. It happens. Stupid GMs sign over-the-hill players.

Why is Nuk so successful regardless of the QB? Who catches the ball matters as much as who is throwing it.

Symbiotic: denoting a mutually beneficial relationship between different people
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
They're old. It happens. Stupid GMs sign over-the-hill players.

Why is Nuk so successful regardless of the QB? Who catches the ball matters as much as who is throwing it.

Symbiotic: denoting a mutually beneficial relationship between different people
They aren't old

Simply Murray is a better QB than DW4.

I bet by the end of the season Nuk has 100 + catches the Cards finish 6-10,7-9.

Also Nils contract would be an albatross but Murray is on his rookie deal. The Texans org blew DW4'S rookie deal. Now they are in the middle of the lost decade.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
@ESPNStatsInfo
1602097508560.png


Watson's QBR for the season is 57.3 which is questionable in itself, especially for a QB who is to be considered "elite" (elite QBs are expected to rate 80 or above). His QBR in the Vikings game was 37.9 which is $#*!

Remember, this is not "passer rating"......this is "quarterback rating." Passer rating is calculated using only a QB's passing attempts, completions, yards, touchdowns, and interceptions. QBR (or Total Quarterback Rating) essentially isolates the QB's personal performance from most other factors.

There are 6 major building blocks resulting in the QBR:

  • Each QB "action play" (passes, rushes, sacks, scrambles, or penalties attributable to the QB) is measured in terms of the expected points added (EPA)
  • Adjust for the difficulty of each play. EPA is adjusted based on the type and depth of a pass, and whether the QB was pressured.
  • If there is a completion, he only is credited for the typical number of yards after the catch (passer rating takes all yards into effect) based on the type and depth of the pass
  • There is a discount on garbage time, or a time where the score is out of reach near the end of the game.
  • Opponent adjustment: More credit is given with tougher defenses and vice versa.
  • QBR averages the adjusted EPA per play and transforms it to a 0 to 100 scale, with 50 being average.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
They aren't old

Simply Murray is a better QB than DW4.

I bet by the end of the season Nuk has 100 + catches the Cards finish 6-10,7-9.

Also Nils contract would be an albatross but Murray is on his rookie deal. The Texans org blew DW4'S rookie deal. Now they are in the middle of the lost decade.
Murray doesn’t have a coach running it up the middle on first and second down every series. More passing plays help with stats.

OB created awful offensive game plans. He had to always find someone to work in his system rather than use the talent he had. And the talent he brings in never replaces the talent he had.

For such a complex offense it seems running it up the middle for no gain on 2 out of 4 downs is fairly simple to grasp.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
They aren't old

Simply Murray is a better QB than DW4.

I bet by the end of the season Nuk has 100 + catches the Cards finish 6-10,7-9.

Also Nils contract would be an albatross but Murray is on his rookie deal. The Texans org blew DW4'S rookie deal. Now they are in the middle of the lost decade.
NFL years, man. Drafted 2011, 2013, 2014. . .these are considered middle aged in football years. And they sure play like old players. I see no burst, no separation, nothing that indicates anything special about any of them.

And Fuller, maybe not old, per say, but broken. Nuk would have had that catch in the endzone. Fuller is JAG. Nothing special about him, either.

So you believe Murray is better, but yet predict a 6-10 season. Okaaaaay. . .

The Texans would have not made the playoffs in 2019, much less win a playoff game in the 4th, without Watson. And before you reply with 51-7, yeah I get it, he needs to play defense, too, while also drawing his offensive plays in the dirt to overcome his braniac HC's crappy calls.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Will Fuller 18 receptions 274 yards 2TDs

J Atkins 14 receptions 168 yards 1 TD

R. Cobb 13 receptions 213 yards 1 TD

B. Cooks 10receptions 138 yards 0 TDs

David J 9 receptions 100 yards 0 TDs

K. Stills 7 receptions 90 yards 1 TD

Well gents you got your balanced distribution. He’s not locked in on just one receiver, he’s spreading it around.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Murray doesn’t have a coach running it up the middle on first and second down every series. More passing plays help with stats.

OB created awful offensive game plans. He had to always find someone to work in his system rather than use the talent he had. And the talent he brings in never replaces the talent he had.

For such a complex offense it seems running it up the middle for no gain on 2 out of 4 downs is fairly simple to grasp.
I guess now there will be know no excuses.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
NFL years, man. Drafted 2011, 2013, 2014. . .these are considered middle aged in football years. And they sure play like old players. I see no burst, no separation, nothing that indicates anything special about any of them.

And Fuller, maybe not old, per say, but broken. Nuk would have had that catch in the endzone. Fuller is JAG. Nothing special about him, either.

So you believe Murray is better, but yet predict a 6-10 season. Okaaaaay. . .

The Texans would have not made the playoffs in 2019, much less win a playoff game in the 4th, without Watson. And before you reply with 51-7, yeah I get it, he needs to play defense, too, while also drawing his offensive plays in the dirt to overcome his braniac HC's crappy calls.
Cooks has played in SB's 2 of the last 3 seasons.

Cobb has been very successful for yrs in GB/Dallas

Stills has been a solid pro WR.

All of the sudden these guys suck.
 
Last edited:

leebigeztx

Keep it Movin!
Hopkins is sorely missed.
I've never seen a young qb stripped of his all pro wr this early in his career. Think about it. The lions didn't get rid of Megatron, Ryan still has Julio, Cowboys traded for Amari. Texans, traded arguably the best wr in the nfl for nothing. If the Chiefs traded Kelce, their offense is not the same. When they really need a play, they look at Kelce. He's their #1 target.
 

Scooter

Funky
Cooks has played in 2 of the last 3 seasons.

Cobb has been very successful for yrs in GB/Dallas

Stills has been a solid pro WR.

All of the sudden these guys suck.
The season before signing with the Texans ....
Cooks - 14 games - 42 receptions on 72 targets for 583 yards and 2 touchdowns.
Cobb - 15 games - 55 receptions on 83 targets for 823 yards and 3 touchdowns.
Stills ... too good to cut, not good enough to be relevant.

All of a sudden they are who they are.
 

welsh texan

All Pro
The season before signing with the Texans ....
Cooks - 14 games - 42 receptions on 72 targets for 583 yards and 2 touchdowns.
Cobb - 15 games - 55 receptions on 83 targets for 823 yards and 3 touchdowns.
Stills ... too good to cut, not good enough to be relevant.

All of a sudden they are who they are.
Plus you have Fuller who teams will take their chances on him getting to the endzone before pulling his hamstring every play of the game if it’s a choice between that and leaving Hopkins single covered.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
I've never seen a young qb stripped of his all pro wr this early in his career. Think about it. The lions didn't get rid of Megatron, Ryan still has Julio, Cowboys traded for Amari. Texans, traded arguably the best wr in the nfl for nothing. If the Chiefs traded Kelce, their offense is not the same. When they really need a play, they look at Kelce. He's their #1 target.
IMO, that's the danger of giving a guy both the GM and HC title; there's no check and balance when one and the same guy start acting irrationally.

I cannot understand trading away a young QB's preferred weapon, especially when they already have such a tight bond through Clemson.
 

leebigeztx

Keep it Movin!
IMO, that's the danger of giving a guy both the GM and HC title; there's no check and balance when one and the same guy start acting irrationally.

I cannot understand trading away a young QB's preferred weapon, especially when they already have such a tight bond through Clemson.
When he got the ultimate power, it eliminated the excuse. He won the battle of "alignment " with Smith. We thought Gaine was his guy, then he got fired for some strange reason. Now that he has ultimate power, and the team struggles, that was it. Again, as an owner, you don't want to be perceived as meddlesome, but he would've had to really explain to me the rationale of trading Hopkins. Even though I was the biggest Clowney fan, had OBRIEN had a plan early, they could've gotten a 1st rd pick or at least a 2nd for him before the end of the league year. So many errors
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
The season before signing with the Texans ....
Cooks - 14 games - 42 receptions on 72 targets for 583 yards and 2 touchdowns.
Cobb - 15 games - 55 receptions on 83 targets for 823 yards and 3 touchdowns.
Stills ... too good to cut, not good enough to be relevant.

All of a sudden they are who they are.
Yupe.

Cooks was overtaken by the slow white guy Kupp by a large margin, and he might be a concussion away from done.
$8M one year rental is still expensive.

Cobb is another no. 3 receiver in Dallas, and overpaid at $9M per by the Texans (that's 33rd highest WR salary for 2020, with $18M guaranteed).
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/wide-receiver/

Still was already overpaid since last year to be a no. 3

The Texans now have three no. 3 being paid as bottom no. 1, top no. 2
It's just insane.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
When he got the ultimate power, it eliminated the excuse. He won the battle of "alignment " with Smith. We thought Gaine was his guy, then he got fired for some strange reason. Now that he has ultimate power, and the team struggles, that was it. Again, as an owner, you don't want to be perceived as meddlesome, but he would've had to really explain to me the rationale of trading Hopkins. Even though I was the biggest Clowney fan, had OBRIEN had a plan early, they could've gotten a 1st rd pick or at least a 2nd for him before the end of the league year. So many errors
OB was playing with Monopoly money like a 3-yr old kid.
If he doesn't like a piece of property, he just throw it away at any given time.
SMH.
 

leebigeztx

Keep it Movin!
Yupe.

Cooks was overtaken by the slow white guy Kupp by a large margin, and he might be a concussion away from done.
$8M one year rental is still expensive.

Cobb is another no. 3 receiver in Dallas, and overpaid at $9M per by the Texans (that's 33rd highest WR salary for 2020, with $18M guaranteed).
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/wide-receiver/

Still was already overpaid since last year to be a no. 3

The Texans now have three no. 3 being paid as bottom no. 1, top no. 2
It's just insane.
The only problem I have is Cobb at 9m. Cooks the yr before is 1100 yd reciever. Stills as a 3rd is good value plus he can play slot and outside. That Cobb and David Johnson money is something else
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
The only problem I have is Cobb at 9m. Cooks the yr before is 1100 yd reciever. Stills as a 3rd is good value plus he can play slot and outside. That Cobb and David Johnson money is something else
When a slow receiver like Kupp overtook Cook in number of targets by a wide margin, I think we need to ask why.

As far as Stills is concerned, the money is too much for a no. 3
If you think he's that good, then give him more opportunity and pay another guy less money.
There are only so many targets to spread around; I don't think you can just pay guys too much money without using them. It's like buying a machette to trim your fingernails.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
The only problem I have is Cobb at 9m. Cooks the yr before is 1100 yd reciever. Stills as a 3rd is good value plus he can play slot and outside. That Cobb and David Johnson money is something else
It's not like they cant get out of DJ's deal after this yr and Cobb's deal in 2 yrs. They're not in as bad of cap shape as some people think they're in. They can cut/trade players to open up alot of cap space over the next 2 yrs. (Either perform or you're out, as it should be)
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
When he got the ultimate power, it eliminated the excuse. He won the battle of "alignment " with Smith. We thought Gaine was his guy, then he got fired for some strange reason. Now that he has ultimate power, and the team struggles, that was it. Again, as an owner, you don't want to be perceived as meddlesome, but he would've had to really explain to me the rationale of trading Hopkins. Even though I was the biggest Clowney fan, had OBRIEN had a plan early, they could've gotten a 1st rd pick or at least a 2nd for him before the end of the league year. So many errors
Agreed,

The issue is guys like Belichick gets rid of players that will cause cap issues a yr early. BOB waited to get rid of players that will be causing cap problems until it's too late and he didn't get proper value in trades. If BOB had handled the Clowney situation properly the Texans would have the their 1st rd pick in next yrs draft.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
It's not like they cant get out of DJ's deal after this yr and Cobb's deal in 2 yrs. They're not in as bad of cap shape as some people think they're in. They can cut/trade players to open up alot of cap space over the next 2 yrs. (Either perform or you're out, as it should be)
Spending 11-12M for a RB like David is just insane. That's money a team could have roll over to next year.
Not only that, they will have to incur $2.1M in dead money if they cut him next year.


Do you have that kind of money to give me?
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
It's not like they cant get out of DJ's deal after this yr and Cobb's deal in 2 yrs. They're not in as bad of cap shape as some people think they're in. They can cut/trade players to open up alot of cap space over the next 2 yrs. (Either perform or you're out, as it should be)
You're paying Cobb $9M a year for two years; that's low no. 1 - high no. 2 salary and you get no. 3 receiver production (simply because you have too many receivers on the team: Fuller, Stills, Cooks, and Cobb, you simply don't have enough targets to split among them).
That's paying for what you don't need.
And when you pay too much for things you don't need, it means you'll have less to spend on the things you actually need.
 

leebigeztx

Keep it Movin!
Agreed,

The issue is guys like Belichick gets rid of players that will cause cap issues a yr early. BOB waited to get rid of players that will be causing cap problems until it's too late and he didn't get proper value in trades. If BOB had handled the Clowney situation properly the Texans would have the their 1st rd pick in next yrs draft.
The same year they got garbage for Clowney, Clark and Dee Ford rendered 1st rd picks. Had they traded him before the new league year started, he would've still been under contract to the new team. Dee Ford and Clowney were in the same draft class
 

DBCooper

Outlaw
Contributor's Club
Cobb is the best receiver on this team. He runs the best routes and has the best hands. But he needs to be your #3 not your #1 or #2.

I love fuller, wish he was the man but he’s not and never will be.

I can’t figure out what Cooks problem is.

Stills can’t even break out of the pack with these guys.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
The same year they got garbage for Clowney, Clark and Dee Ford rendered 1st rd picks. Had they traded him before the new league year started, he would've still been under contract to the new team. Dee Ford and Clowney were in the same draft class
I thought they got Ford for a 2nd rd pick.

I could be wrong.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Cobb is the best receiver on this team. He runs the best routes and has the best hands. But he needs to be your #3 not your #1 or #2.

I love fuller, wish he was the man but he’s not and never will be.

I can’t figure out what Cooks problem is.

Stills can’t even break out of the pack with these guys.
There were no problems with these guys until they arrived down on Kirby. Cooks/Cobb have always been very productive and Stills has been a starting level WR in the NFL for yrs.

But they get to Houston and we correctly see posts like this one. Wonder why? Hmmm
 

DBCooper

Outlaw
Contributor's Club
There were no problems with these guys until they arrived down on Kirby. Cooks/Cobb have always been very productive and Stills has been a starting level WR in the NFL for yrs.

But they get to Houston and we correctly see posts like this one. Wonder why? Hmmm
Bad play design, horrible route structure, QB running for his life trying to make a sh!t sandwich work, they aren’t as good as Hopkins......
 

DBCooper

Outlaw
Contributor's Club
We're going to find out now that BOB's no longer here to scapegoat.
Partly for sure.

but he also put us in this mess and will take a while to unravel.

We need to concentrate on short quick passing game taking advantage of
Watson’s mobility and moving the pocket around.

These receivers need to get their separation quick and expect the ball quick.

We need routes that scheme people open even for a second.

3 - 6 yard chunks.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Partly for sure.

but he also put us in this mess and will take a while to unravel.

We need to concentrate on short quick passing game taking advantage of
Watson’s mobility and moving the pocket around.

These receivers need to get their separation quick and expect the ball quick.

We need routes that scheme people open even for a second.

3 - 6 yard chunks.
Corrosion has shown that the short stuff has been there for the taking and DW4's not taking it. This is the area DW4 needs to improve.
 

DBCooper

Outlaw
Contributor's Club
Corrosion has shown that the short stuff has been there for the taking and DW4's not taking it. This is the area DW4 needs to improve.
I’m not worried about Watson.

Watson’s only problem is that he’s spent years studying the inane “intricacies” of O’Brien’s brilliant “lull and dull” offense expecting the Holy Grail and finding that someone has peed in his solo cup.

The way Watson plays is like a man that saw what he was given will never work and was trying to fix it the only way he knew how.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
There were no problems with these guys until they arrived down on Kirby. Cooks/Cobb have always been very productive and Stills has been a starting level WR in the NFL for yrs.

But they get to Houston and we correctly see posts like this one. Wonder why? Hmmm
As usual, you're not looking at things carefully.
Those teams are more pass happy and they ran more plays than the Texans (faster tempo).
There were more targets.

BOB wants a slow paced game, hoping to keep the defense fresh.

The Texans have a bunch of no. 3 receivers besides Fuller to divide the number of targets.
Also, Akins have shown to be another viable option besides Fell.
Same thing with the RBs; the Texans now have two main choices to pass the ball to instead of 1.5
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
There were no problems with these guys until they arrived down on Kirby. Cooks/Cobb have always been very productive and Stills has been a starting level WR in the NFL for yrs.

But they get to Houston and we correctly see posts like this one. Wonder why? Hmmm
To further expanding on my previous post, the Texans rank 26th in number of pass attempts this year.

Last year, the Cowboys and Rams were 10th and 3rd.
There were more targets for their receivers.
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
I guess now there will be know no excuses.
You mean other than not having offensive personnel that have been developing game plans and making offensive play calls in the NFL longer than the life span of a fruit fly?

But let’s be honest. It’s not like we had an offensive genius so I am willing to bet Watson (and the entire offense for that matter) looks better calling his plays and playing to his strengths.

That is something that OB could never do consistently.

Play to the team’s strength.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
It's not like they cant get out of DJ's deal after this yr and Cobb's deal in 2 yrs. They're not in as bad of cap shape as some people think they're in. They can cut/trade players to open up alot of cap space over the next 2 yrs. (Either perform or you're out, as it should be)
Being 20m over the cap with 38 players under contract for next season is a damn poor cap situation.

In many cases , relief is at least two years away.

@thunderkyss posted a list of 6 potential cap casualties for next year that could net ~40m in relief .... but you do the math , that would leave them with 32 players under contract and 23 spots to fill with ~20m. And those are guys who play a pretty significant role. Martin , Both Johnson's , McKinney , Stills and Cooks - also realize WFV is in the final year of his deal.

No WR's , no RB's , no C .... ~20m to replace them with.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Cooks has played in SB's 2 of the last 3 seasons.

Cobb has been very successful for yrs in GB/Dallas

Stills has been a solid pro WR.

All of the sudden these guys suck.
Your answers often come across as someone that just started watching football, which I assume are crafted to conform to your obvious bias. It is quite amusing.

I realize what the primary difference between us is with regards to Watson:

You have an affirmative believe system - i.e. blind faith - that he's always going to be mediocre (or worse). You believe it so much that you basically proselytize about it, appearing to be a football prophet predicting the future, and it very much becomes akin to your own quasi-football-religion. You are so convinced of your perspective that you seem to evangelize it in order to attract (and convince) fellow Watson-doubting believers.

I am, on the other hand, a football agnostic. I don't have a problem with saying "I don't know". I see the potential in Watson, but I do not pretend to have conclusive proof that he will (or will not) succeed in the NFL. He could bust out, or he could be a HoF, or somewhere in between. I simply don't know until it is history.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I see the potential in Watson, but I do not pretend to have conclusive proof that he will (or will not) succeed in the NFL. He could bust out, or he could be a HoF, or somewhere in between. I simply don't know until it is history.
Drew Brees.

I understand I’m most likely not thinking straight. But other than Drew Brees, who else has won his first Super Bowl outside his first four years?

Gotta be a long list right?
 

Scooter

Funky
Drew Brees.

I understand I’m most likely not thinking straight. But other than Drew Brees, who else has won his first Super Bowl outside his first four years?

Gotta be a long list right?
Peyton and Elway come immediately to mind.

Edit: I haven't looked, but I'm betting 30 seconds would add a LOT of players to the list, Delhomme and (Edit: McMahon was year 3) as I'm typing.
 
Last edited:


Top