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All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

76Texan

Hall of Fame
It would've been a helluva catch. The ball could've been placed better, no doubt. I would say that both DHOP and Case wish they could run that play again. Growing pains. Better than seeing the death throes from Schaub.
It was a catch until the CB recovered and put a hand in between Hopkins' to jarr the ball loose. Hopkins probably expected the ball a bit closer to him and so he didn't position his body well enough to shield the defender from the ball.

Case made the quick read; as he saw the CB played the outside fade, he threw the ball to the inside. If Hopkins was on the same page, he would have fly to the ball instead of jumping up and because of that, he had to extend his arms to catch the ball. The CB also had a hand on Hopkins' waist to prevent him from lunging toward the ball.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Matt Schaub = meatloaf, if everything around him is great he's ok.
Case Keenum = bacon, makes everyone around him better.
I hope we get to a point where that is true about Case. However, I don't think we are at that point yet. He's basically a rookie with All-Pros all around him & we don't need him to be 2012 Tom Brady. We need him to be 2002 Tom Brady.

At the same time, we need the 2013 Texans to play like those 2002 Patriots.
 

legacy_gt

Rookie
I hope we get to a point where that is true about Case. However, I don't think we are at that point yet. He's basically a rookie with All-Pros all around him & we don't need him to be 2012 Tom Brady. We need him to be 2002 Tom Brady.

At the same time, we need the 2013 Texans to play like those 2002 Patriots.
we want tom brady? we can't even have last years watt or a healthy cushing let alone we have a broken schaub for the last year....
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
I want to see an undrafted 2012 QB out play and win against the #1 2012 draft pick - a QB. And there will be a rematch too this year. Its almost like Rocky...

Dont screw it up Kubiak.

Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express
 

maddogmrb

Rookie
He's basically a rookie with All-Pros all around him
2 All Pros (Daniels & Foster) didn't play for the most part. The much heralded backup RB didn't play for the most part. Many question the All Pro ability of Wade Wilson, Andre Johnson is beyond his All Pro prime and Duane Brown has had his struggles this year. That leaves ONE, Chris Myers who may be playing to that level. That leaves a talented rookie WR and 2 linemen who have significantly under-performed. So don't insinuate that he stepped into a well-oiled offensive machine and just had to not make mistakes. He HAD to MAKE AND CREATE plays to have the day he did. Our other 2 QBs would have been wookie fodder for that defense.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
2 All Pros (Daniels & Foster) didn't play for the most part. The much heralded backup RB didn't play for the most part. Many question the All Pro ability of Wade Wilson, Andre Johnson is beyond his All Pro prime and Duane Brown has had his struggles this year. That leaves ONE, Chris Myers who may be playing to that level. That leaves a talented rookie WR and 2 linemen who have significantly under-performed. So don't insinuate that he stepped into a well-oiled offensive machine and just had to not make mistakes. He HAD to MAKE AND CREATE plays to have the day he did. Our other 2 QBs would have been wookie fodder for that defense.
I'm going to insinuate.... that's what I do.

Besides, we're talking about two different things here. You're talking about last game, I'm talking about the next game.

We need the team to step up. There's no way around it. Our UDFA outplayed everybody on the field last Sunday, bully for him. To save the season we've got to win games.... didn't happen last Sunday. To win games, we need the veteran players around him to step up.... don't insinuate otherwise.

And don't look at Andre's age, he's playing every bit at a all-pro level.
 

maddogmrb

Rookie
I'm going to insinuate.... that's what I do.

Besides, we're talking about two different things here. You're talking about last game, I'm talking about the next game.

We need the team to step up. There's no way around it. Our UDFA outplayed everybody on the field last Sunday, bully for him. To save the season we've got to win games.... didn't happen last Sunday. To win games, we need the veteran players around him to step up.... don't insinuate otherwise.

And don't look at Andre's age, he's playing every bit at a all-pro level.
Agreed! Andre is still playing at a high level and I think Case his infused some excitement into him and the other receivers. However, he has lost a step from his best years.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
I'm going to insinuate.... that's what I do.

Besides, we're talking about two different things here. You're talking about last game, I'm talking about the next game.

We need the team to step up. There's no way around it. Our UDFA outplayed everybody on the field last Sunday, bully for him. To save the season we've got to win games.... didn't happen last Sunday. To win games, we need the veteran players around him to step up.... don't insinuate otherwise.

And don't look at Andre's age, he's playing every bit at a all-pro level.
In -sin- u - ate. (sorry could not pass that one by.)
 

eriadoc

Texan-American
Heard on the radio a couple days ago that the 6 plays of 25+ yards in the KC game was more in one game than the Texans have ever had. Schaub threw for 527 yards in one game last year and they didn't do it.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Heard on the radio a couple days ago that the 6 plays of 25+ yards in the KC game was more in one game than the Texans have ever had. Schaub threw for 527 yards in one game last year and they didn't do it.
If he doesn't improve on anything but the fumbles, he'll be a very fine QB.


But I really want to see how he performs after throwing an INT (not anytime soon mind you). Gotta see if he's got that short memory, something Schaub lost quiet some time ago.
 

Thorn

Dirty Old Man
If he doesn't improve on anything but the fumbles, he'll be a very fine QB.


But I really want to see how he performs after throwing an INT (not anytime soon mind you). Gotta see if he's got that short memory, something Schaub lost quiet some time ago.
He lost his memory quietly, or did you mean he lost it quite some time ago. The Grammar Police need an answer.

 

kingtexan

All Pro
He lost his memory quietly, or did you mean he lost it quite some time ago. The Grammar Police need an answer.

I believe it to be the former, because Matt does everything quietly. He may have sulked about it, but I doubt he made any noise ... :worldpeace:
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
Heard on the radio a couple days ago that the 6 plays of 25+ yards in the KC game was more in one game than the Texans have ever had. Schaub threw for 527 yards in one game last year and they didn't do it.
Yes. It was a striking difference to see the big play again. However, KC was asking for it. They played more zero deep coverage than I have seen since Mike Zimmer was in Dallas. Teams don't show that look to Schaub, nor do they run a coverage with nobody deep. It doesn't make sens for them to.

That being said, KC thought they could bully and pressure Keenum and he made them pay. Good sign!
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Yes. It was a striking difference to see the big play again. However, KC was asking for it. They played more zero deep coverage than I have seen since Mike Zimmer was in Dallas. Teams don't show that look to Schaub, nor do they run a coverage with nobody deep. It doesn't make sens for them to.

That being said, KC thought they could bully and pressure Keenum and he made them pay. Good sign!
I hope the Dolt's do the same. Keenum showed that he could do damage given reasonable time.

That said, I bet Keenum studied blitzes a ridiculous amount of time the last two weeks. His hot read could have a monster game this week. Keenum could to, if the play calling is right. I'd love to see the 1st 300-300 passer. :spit:
 

Brisco_County

Texans worthy
Texans Chick asserts that the offensive scheme will make some adjustments that maximize Keenum's strengths.

In the game against the Chiefs, the Texans used substantially more shotgun/pistol formations than usual. The Texans offense under Matt Schaub in 2012 used pistol/shotgun 22% per the Football Outsiders Almanac, which ranks its usage at 32nd in the NFL.
Quoting Bill Barnwell from Grantland to support that assertion:

"What was most interesting was how the Texans installed plays that put Keenum in the shotgun and even occasionally in the pistol. Those moves hint at the bigger schematic change that could be to come for the Texans.

...

Now, packaged plays aren’t anything new to the NFL, and I haven’t watched every Texans snap over the past few years, but I don’t think Gary Kubiak had this in his playbook for Schaub. It’s reminiscent of the offensive scheme Keenum ran in college, and it’s no surprise that Kubiak installed it to give Keenum a play he was experienced and comfortable running during a testing first start."


...

I strongly suggest reading the Keenum/Texans part of that article. He thinks that some of the concepts that Washington uses with Robert Griffin III may be used with Keenum in the offense, particularly with more time over the bye week to incorporate these things in the offense.
Link.

Read both Stradley's article and Barnwell's.
 

Brisco_County

Texans worthy
And another interesting article about how Keenum is cut from the cloth of the Texas quarterback.

When Chicago's Josh McCown faces the Packers on Sunday, he'll become the 11th quarterback who played high school football in Texas to start an NFL game this season. Over the summer I spent time in Houston, College Station and Austin for a Sports Illustrated feature on why so many quarterbacks are coming from the Lone Star state. Spread offenses, seven-on-seven, state of the art facilities and training jumped out. But Texas football has also gained a reputation for producing quarterbacks with a certain mindset.

From Drew Brees to Matthew Stafford to Andrew Luck, Texas QBs are gunslingers -- confident passers not afraid of big moments or throwing the ball to dangerous places. I expected people to talk about Johnny Manziel as the embodiment of this attitude ... and many did. But Case Keenum was another name that came up again and again as a great example of a true Texas quarterback. And this is when he was just a practice squad player for the Texans. Now Keenum is starting and hoping to become the latest in the line of successful Texas signal-callers.
Link.
 

GuerillaBlack

Hall of Fame
Texans Chick asserts that the offensive scheme will make some adjustments that maximize Keenum's strengths.



Quoting Bill Barnwell from Grantland to support that assertion:



Link.

Read both Stradley's article and Barnwell's.
Now that Keenum is okay in Madden, I always run the Texans with the Washington offense playbook. They are so fun to play with that way. Should be fun to watch on Sunday.
 

Tailgate

Fall of Hame
I remember many a great Saturdays watchin this guy lead the Coogs to Victory. He just has that IT factor. I just hope it can transfer over to this level... The odds are long, but still have hope.
 

Carr Bombed

Hall of Fame
"The people's Champ"..

It's pretty sad when the majority of the city could recognize the move that should've been made well before the coaching staff does.
 

speedfreek

All Pro
Just watched Keenum's full interview on houstontexans.com.

The thing that stuck out the most to me:

I've never seen anyone so excited and happy to take the reigns
of a 2-5 team on a 5 game losing streak _against_ a team that
everyone in the country says will win.

The guy loves the game so much, and loves to get his chance
to play here for this team so much, that he's willing to risk
a beatdown (and all of the negative press that would come with that)
just to strap up and get out there.

After following him for a while, you just know that his grin isn't
fake. The kid has dreamed about this day his entire life regardless
of the outcome.

And that is the one "unmeasureable" that he has over Schaub and
Yates that can really (potentially) make his teammates better around
him..

TJ
 

GNTLEWOLF

Rookie
& he's still an All-pro.
I hate to do this, and if I'm flamed I understand. I love Andre as much as any other Texans fan does. But I have to know... Is Andre really still an all pro this year? Is he putting up all pro numbers and production? Is he making the tough yards? Are his catches blowing games open? I know it is almost blasphemy to question Andre. I'm sorry that I am, but He has lost a step or two, and I don't se him as the difference maker he used to be. I know he's still good, but I'm not sure he is still all pro caliber, and I want him to prove my doubts wrong.
 

Big Lou

Clean house!!!!
I hate to do this, and if I'm flamed I understand. I love Andre as much as any other Texans fan does. But I have to know... Is Andre really still an all pro this year? Is he putting up all pro numbers and production? Is he making the tough yards? Are his catches blowing games open? I know it is almost blasphemy to question Andre. I'm sorry that I am, but He has lost a step or two, and I don't se him as the difference maker he used to be. I know he's still good, but I'm not sure he is still all pro caliber, and I want him to prove my doubts wrong.
I seem to recall strong numbers and a couple of game changing/winning plays last year until Schaubs arm petered out. Let's give him a couple of games with Keenum before we start the talk of AJ's decline.
 

eriadoc

Texan-American
I hate to do this, and if I'm flamed I understand. I love Andre as much as any other Texans fan does. But I have to know... Is Andre really still an all pro this year? Is he putting up all pro numbers and production? Is he making the tough yards? Are his catches blowing games open? I know it is almost blasphemy to question Andre. I'm sorry that I am, but He has lost a step or two, and I don't se him as the difference maker he used to be. I know he's still good, but I'm not sure he is still all pro caliber, and I want him to prove my doubts wrong.
Last season, AJ put up career numbers. It's evident that he lost a step after having his hamstring clipped, and I doubt we'll see as many jaw dropping plays from him going forward as we have in the past. Nonetheless, he put up career numbers. Think about how good he is, how long he's been good, and he just now got around to putting up the best stats of his career.

112 catches (2nd to the 115 he put up in '08)
1598 yards (career best)
14.3 average (his 4th best, but his best is just 14.9)
99.9 yards per game (career best)
23 plays of 20+ yards (career best)
79 1st downs (career best, tied)

This year, his only problem has been the QB. He has 48 catches through 7 games, which puts him on pace for 110ish. But the yardage from those catches has been down. Through the first 6 games, he was averaging 11.25 yards per catch. In the game vs. KC, he averaged 22.3 yards per catch, bringing his season average up to 12.2. If Keenum can keep the vertical component of the offense going, I expect AJ will finish the season with 110 catches with close to a 14 yard average. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500+ yards, which would make him the first ever WR to exceed 1500 yards 4 times, if I am not mistaken.

Of course, he'll finish with 2 TDs, so there's always that. As much as I love AJ, I'd fill my All Pro team with guys who get in the end zone. Points on the board are better than yardage on the stat sheet.
 

Brisco_County

Texans worthy
"The people's Champ"..

It's pretty sad when the majority of the city could recognize the move that should've been made well before the coaching staff does.
This is true, and it's the result of Gary Kubiak's primary fault: Personnel decisions. His decisions are made through an anti-synygernistic mix of too much loyalty and inconsistent talent evaluation. I could write at length on this in one of the Kubiak threads, but it is relevant to this situation because Kubiak could not abandon his vision of Schaub as a championship calibre quarterback. He still sees Schaub as that 2011, pre-injury leader whose star is rising. Shedding that vision is gut wrenching, because Kubiak's a good natured guy who never wants to retire with a regret as heavy as not giving Schaub a fair opportunity.

Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown. Frank Bush was also his idea, which resulted in Kubiak losing decision making power in that aspect of the organization. Keenum may be the next successful personnel decision influenced by process, but it's a unique outcome since it also required Kubiak's decision to pass over Yates. There's some implication of his job stability in an out-of-process risk like that.

For the record, I actually think Kubiak is a pretty good coach. He doesn't call any more broken plays than any other winning coach in the league, and he develops quaterbacks well. He just needs to have limited power in the areas where he's weak -- specifically personnel decisions.
 

Lord Bills

Destruction
This is true, and it's the result of Gary Kubiak's primary fault: Personnel decisions. His decisions are made through an anti-synygernistic mix of too much loyalty and inconsistent talent evaluation. I could write at length on this in one of the Kubiak threads, but it is relevant to this situation because Kubiak could not abandon his vision of Schaub as a championship calibre quarterback. He still sees Schaub as that 2011, pre-injury leader whose star is rising. Shedding that vision is gut wrenching, because Kubiak's a good natured guy who never wants to retire with a regret as heavy as not giving Schaub a fair opportunity.

Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown. Frank Bush was also his idea, which resulted in Kubiak losing decision making power in that aspect of the organization. Keenum may be the next successful personnel decision influenced by process, but it's a unique outcome since it also required Kubiak's decision to pass over Yates. There's some implication of his job stability in an out-of-process risk like that.
Totally agree.


For the record, I actually think Kubiak is a pretty good coach. He doesn't call any more broken plays than any other winning coach in the league, and he develops quaterbacks well. He just needs to have limited power in the areas where he's weak -- specifically personnel decisions.

Totally disagree.

Kubiak is a pretty lousy head coach. Mediocre at best. The first part of your post which i agreed with proves that. That's part of being a good coach and having good decisions and making bold moves. I mean look at our quarterback history since kubiak has gotten here. Orlovsky, Grossman, Delhomme, Schaub, Yates, Rosencopter, how did this guy ever get the status of being a guru at anything let alone quarterbacks? Maybe keenum is his saving grace but its still too early to tell.

No, Kubiak is not a good coach. The first part of your post proves that. You cant cherry pick things that are good and make that as your overall basis to label somebody pretty good coach. We havent even gotten to his in game decision making and play calling. His constant 2nd and long running plays, his complete and utter lack of balls to go for the kill, his conservative play not to lose instead of playing to win philosophy, his bland, predictable offense, sorry, kubiak is not a good coach at all. His two division championships was the result of the colts imploding with peyton's neck and subsequent rebuilding.

You cant call a coach who is scared to win, scared to look at crucial field goals, scared to fire incompetent personnel (joe marciano says hi) a pretty good coach.

sorry.

That's what you call a pretty lousy head coach.
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
I hate to do this, and if I'm flamed I understand. I love Andre as much as any other Texans fan does. But I have to know... Is Andre really still an all pro this year? Is he putting up all pro numbers and production? Is he making the tough yards? Are his catches blowing games open? I know it is almost blasphemy to question Andre. I'm sorry that I am, but He has lost a step or two, and I don't se him as the difference maker he used to be. I know he's still good, but I'm not sure he is still all pro caliber, and I want him to prove my doubts wrong.
I'm a big Andre fan. He's a very good player. However, he is no longer a dynamic threat. He does not have break away speed anymore and is no longer special in the open field. His hands have always been inconsistent. He's still big, strong, and competitive. However, in essence, he should be a #2 WR... not that he should get fewer touches but that the team needs utilize someone else to threaten the defense vertically and to make big plays in the seams, which is what is exciting about Hopkins and Posey. Both of those players have that potential/ability.
 

EVOLVIST

Kid A
Texans Chick asserts that the offensive scheme will make some adjustments that maximize Keenum's strengths.



Quoting Bill Barnwell from Grantland to support that assertion:



Link.

Read both Stradley's article and Barnwell's.
See, while it sounds nice in theory, I don't agree that this is the way to go with Keenum. Or, at least, not wholly as the article implies...and as the game against KC implied.

The fact is, much was made in the off season about Keenum working on this 3, 5 and 7-step drops from under center, as well as his knowledge of the playbook. This was further validated by Keenum's performances in the pre-season where he primarily operated under center, until the last pre-season game. The results?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4LpCbVTp-g

Everyone has seen this video, but notice his footwork looks as if he has been doing it for years. This was/is a good sign - and they were TDs, too! Now, instead, we're talking about using these "RGIII packages," almost negating the hard work Case put in to be a more complete NFL QB and not a spread guy.

Really, we should be looking at what Brees and Cam Newton do in shotgun and under center for a more viable options for Case. Case isn't going to run a read-option too well, so why not confuse the defenses with what the Texans do best by masking their runs and passes, using the same formations?

I think so. In fact, I know so.
 

Carr Bombed

Hall of Fame
That slant that Kennum hit Posey on was great. He hit him in stride and showed great explosion as he cut up field, people shouldn't sleep on that kid.. he still has a lot of upside and was starting to make plays before his injury last season.. He hasn't played a lot of football due to injury/suspension the last couple of years, but as he gets more time knocking off the rust I only see him getting better and better. Hopkins is more polished and more skillful, but Posey might have the best upside.

As far as Andre.. as these young guys start making plays and atract attention away from Andre, if the defense naps on him, he can still get behind them for big plays and he still has no problem getting open being the savy vet that he is. However it was completely stupid and selfish to snip his hamstring, the Texans were just thinking "for today" instead of for the future. They should've shut him down and gave him the best long term surgurical procedure.
 

DexmanC

Hall of Fame
That slant that Kennum hit Posey on was great. He hit him in stride and showed great explosion as he cut up field, people shouldn't sleep on that kid.. he still has a lot of upside and was starting to make plays before his injury last season.. He hasn't played a lot of football due to injury/suspension the last couple of years, but as he gets more time knocking off the rust I only see him getting better and better. Hopkins is more polished and more skillful, but Posey might have the best upside.

As far as Andre.. as these young guys start making plays and atract attention away from Andre, if the defense naps on him, he can still get behind them for big plays and he still has no problem getting open being the savy vet that he is. However it was completely stupid and selfish to snip his hamstring, the Texans were just thinking "for today" instead of for the future. They should've shut him down and gave him the best long term surgurical procedure.
We already knew the Texans had potential BEASTS at the wideout spot. Too bad it took a series of strange circumstances/injuries to push Kubiak into making the right decision at QB. Sunday can't get here soon enough.
 

Scooter

Funky
Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown.
i love that line "result of the process, not his evaluations". i think it's dead on. i'm going to use it in this case to support kubiak, because it's a fantastic process he's got. he can coach up and teach and bring the best out of players as well as anyone. we find so many diamonds like foster and keenum and brooks because of kubiak's process. he however needs people who's strengths are his weaknesses instead of what appear to be "yes men" that he has around him. a coordinator who isnt afraid of the ugly job of telling kubiak "schaub's done, here's what you're not wanting to see". someone who shows the low-lights when evaluating prospects.

kubiak certainly has his weaknesses, but he also has his strengths. i think we'll see the top end of those strengths with how keenum plays out the season. i'd rather keep that and try to address his weaknesses better, than try to replace him with someone who will just swap those areas.
 

santo

All Pro
Contributor's Club
Hopefully Keenum is the real deal. If he can make Lestar Jean look good, imagine what Hopkins, Posey and AJ will look like. :fans:
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
This is true, and it's the result of Gary Kubiak's primary fault: Personnel decisions. His decisions are made through an anti-synygernistic mix of too much loyalty and inconsistent talent evaluation. I could write at length on this in one of the Kubiak threads, but it is relevant to this situation because Kubiak could not abandon his vision of Schaub as a championship calibre quarterback. He still sees Schaub as that 2011, pre-injury leader whose star is rising. Shedding that vision is gut wrenching, because Kubiak's a good natured guy who never wants to retire with a regret as heavy as not giving Schaub a fair opportunity.

Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown. Frank Bush was also his idea, which resulted in Kubiak losing decision making power in that aspect of the organization. Keenum may be the next successful personnel decision influenced by process, but it's a unique outcome since it also required Kubiak's decision to pass over Yates. There's some implication of his job stability in an out-of-process risk like that.

For the record, I actually think Kubiak is a pretty good coach. He doesn't call any more broken plays than any other winning coach in the league, and he develops quaterbacks well. He just needs to have limited power in the areas where he's weak -- specifically personnel decisions.
Pointing out "THE PROCESS" concept makes virtually everything fall into place..............MSR for putting together such astute observations.:handshake:
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
This is true, and it's the result of Gary Kubiak's primary fault: Personnel decisions. His decisions are made through an anti-synygernistic mix of too much loyalty and inconsistent talent evaluation.
Couldn't disagree more.

It's easy to MMQB Kubiak, make decisions in a vacuum, and assume everything would've worked out the way we planned, but that's not reality. Kubiak hasn't shown Schaub any more loyalty than any other coach would have shown towards Matt given his tenure & what he has accomplished in this league (what little that may be).

Matt was pulled twice before he got game. & before he got hurt he was having a pretty good, Matt Schaub game. 98.5 passer rating, 8.9 ypa, 71% completion, no turnovers, despite being sacked 3 times.

He still sees Schaub as that 2011, pre-injury leader whose star is rising.
Matt has looked physically better than he has in a long, long time.

Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown.
Others constantly remind me Arian said he wasn't ready when he first got here. & just like this situation, who knows what was going to happen if Kubiak did make the switch earlier. This is one of those vacuum decisions where we assume everything would have turned out better if our wishes were granted.

But if you've got a known in one hand & unpredictability in the other, you've got to roll with you know. You can game plan around what you know. & I can't remember all those games, but they were mostly all winnable back in 2010, many of them lost on the last play of the game, or in the last minute.

Giving Arian the opportunity when he got his opportunity (actually I think he fumbled inside his first 5 carries), probably made him the player he is today.

Frank Bush was also his idea, which resulted in Kubiak losing decision making power in that aspect of the organization.
I honestly thought Frank Bush was the answer in 2009. We weren't a top 10 defense, but we weren't bottom 3 either. The defense showed very good progress & decisions & plans made by the F.O. didn't work out. Hard to blame Bush for all of that.

I bet if Wade didn't become available & Bum wasn't hanging out at Reliant as much as he was at the time, Bush would have got another year to redeem himself.

Keenum may be the next successful personnel decision influenced by process, but it's a unique outcome since it also required Kubiak's decision to pass over Yates.
Like I said earlier, Kubiak went about it the way most everyone else would have. Schaub is the starter, until he gets hurt. That's the rule for QBs & just about everyone follows it if you've got a guy who's played as well as Matt has over the last 6 years.

As far as Yates goes, we were 2-4, the future (which I believe Case was Kubiak's plan) is now. Poor Yates got some rough situations to "win" the job, but no more so than what they did to Case. & Case came out better in KC.

For the record, I actually think Kubiak is a pretty good coach. He doesn't call any more broken plays than any other winning coach in the league, and he develops quaterbacks well. He just needs to have limited power in the areas where he's weak -- specifically personnel decisions.
I agree that there are worse coaches out there & it could be worse here. But I agree, this is what he do & if he can't save this season by preparing the team to win as they are built now (all his decisions) then his time here is over.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
See, while it sounds nice in theory, I don't agree that this is the way to go with Keenum. Or, at least, not wholly as the article implies...and as the game against KC implied.

The fact is, much was made in the off season about Keenum working on this 3, 5 and 7-step drops from under center, as well as his knowledge of the playbook. This was further validated by Keenum's performances in the pre-season where he primarily operated under center, until the last pre-season game.
Preseason still don't mean jack.

But, we're not going to be exclusively pistol/shotgun. That was because the line was struggling, needed help & KCs got the best pass rush in the league. We'll still be heavy pistol/shotgun, because some of the same issues are still there. Mathis is the leading pass rusher ytd.

I'm sure there will be some of our regular, from under center plays scripted in the first 15, then depending on what they see there, they'll go from there.
 

Thorn

Dirty Old Man
I'm case keenum'd out.

Just ready to see the next game.
:lol:

I'm sure Keenum will do a better job than Schaub or Yates would, how much better is yet to be seen. I think a lot of us, including myself, have been drinking the Keenum koolaid probably have more expectations of him than he'll show us in only his 2nd game. But I'm ready for a change.

Seeing him in red again is just going to be totally cool though.
 

bckey

All Pro
This is true, and it's the result of Gary Kubiak's primary fault: Personnel decisions. His decisions are made through an anti-synygernistic mix of too much loyalty and inconsistent talent evaluation. I could write at length on this in one of the Kubiak threads, but it is relevant to this situation because Kubiak could not abandon his vision of Schaub as a championship calibre quarterback. He still sees Schaub as that 2011, pre-injury leader whose star is rising. Shedding that vision is gut wrenching, because Kubiak's a good natured guy who never wants to retire with a regret as heavy as not giving Schaub a fair opportunity.

Also note how Kubiak's successful personnel decisions are the result of process, not his initial evaluations. Foster got his job through process, but Kubiak had a good impression of Chris Brown. Frank Bush was also his idea, which resulted in Kubiak losing decision making power in that aspect of the organization. Keenum may be the next successful personnel decision influenced by process, but it's a unique outcome since it also required Kubiak's decision to pass over Yates. There's some implication of his job stability in an out-of-process risk like that.
great post and I agree. But I don't see Kubiak as a good coach. I see him as more of a "keystone cop" type coach bumbling his way along. He is not a good leader imho but more of a 2nd in command type that needs direction. Much better OC.

For the record, I actually think Kubiak is a pretty good coach. He doesn't call any more broken plays than any other winning coach in the league, and he develops quaterbacks well. He just needs to have limited power in the areas where he's weak -- specifically personnel decisions.
this is the part I don't necessarily agree with.
 

Scooter

Funky
It's really uncanny the connection Keenum and Jean have. He always finds him open somehow.
i mentioned this before the cheifs game in my support of him, keenum has a better rapport with jean and martin and the younger receivers because that's who he practices with. schaub can find andre and his tightends ... who cant hit arguably the best receiver in the last 10 years? keenum will have to adjust to andre (how hard could that be?), but he had a pretty good relationship with the young guys before even playing his first game. this gives us more legit weapons. we could have 5 hall of famers going on routes, but it wouldnt matter if schaub's only hitting 1 of them. case knows where the "other guys" are going to be.
 

Brisco_County

Texans worthy
Couldn't disagree more.

It's easy to MMQB Kubiak, make decisions in a vacuum, and assume everything would've worked out the way we planned, but that's not reality. Kubiak hasn't shown Schaub any more loyalty than any other coach would have shown towards Matt given his tenure & what he has accomplished in this league (what little that may be).

Matt was pulled twice before he got game. & before he got hurt he was having a pretty good, Matt Schaub game. 98.5 passer rating, 8.9 ypa, 71% completion, no turnovers, despite being sacked 3 times.
Schaub's decline started at the New England game last year. This season, his performance can't be described as a "slump" like a golfer or basketball player; It's been a recurring shipwreck. NFL QB's don't come back from that. After the San Francisco game, what more was there to see?

Matt has looked physically better than he has in a long, long time.
Indeed, he had more spring in his step while making bad decisions.

Others constantly remind me Arian said he wasn't ready when he first got here. & just like this situation, who knows what was going to happen if Kubiak did make the switch earlier. This is one of those vacuum decisions where we assume everything would have turned out better if our wishes were granted.
I don't see how this contends with my point: His decisions based on process have been more successful than decisions based on his initial evaluations.

I honestly thought Frank Bush was the answer in 2009. We weren't a top 10 defense, but we weren't bottom 3 either. The defense showed very good progress & decisions & plans made by the F.O. didn't work out. Hard to blame Bush for all of that.

I bet if Wade didn't become available & Bum wasn't hanging out at Reliant as much as he was at the time, Bush would have got another year to redeem himself.
I thought Bush was going to be the answer too, and maybe a couple of more seasons of experience was what he needed. But we all know that's an unrealistic request in this league.

This clip at 2:47 demonstrates how unprepared Bush was for coordinating in the pros. Allowing Braylon Edwards to get the sidelines with 23 seconds and no timeouts is unacceptable.

There's also a reason to watch that video in its entirety. The Matt Schaub highlights show a much different and confident QB than what we've seen since December of last year. This contrast should've been stark for Kubiak going into this season.

Like I said earlier, Kubiak went about it the way most everyone else would have. Schaub is the starter, until he gets hurt. That's the rule for QBs & just about everyone follows it if you've got a guy who's played as well as Matt has over the last 6 years.
I'm very pleased with the hard work and accomplishments that Matt Schaub delivered over the past six years. But he lost the benefit of the doubt after the Seattle game. There's no point in reenacting the Jake Delhomme Story.
 


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