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9/6 Justice article on Carr
- Thread starter Marcus
- Start date
Vinny said:
I wasn't originally on the same page with the David Carr pick. I wanted Joey.
But, I saw David getting better and progressing as the years went by. I started to respect the guy after the beating he was taking, and coming back for more.
2005, I saw a scared kid who didn't have a chance, & still, we scored enough points to win more times than not. I was only disappointed with his poise.
I know he's rushed a couple of throws in the preseason, but he hasn't looked nearly as bad as he did last year. Which I think is half the battle.
I'm not happy with the choices he has made, the check downs, leaving the pocket..... throwing into cover. & I don't like some of the throws he's made.... most of them behind the reciever........... but I don't expect these things to have changed over night.
If he wasn't playing scared last year, maybe.....
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
If Carr can stop having to get up the morning after every game day, running to the mirror, pinching his cheeks saying in disbelief "It's good to be alive," then maybe, just maybe we'll have a QB that can stand firm while adequately "reading" the field................then sky may not necessarily become the limit, but we might at least get a better view from the 4th floor.
SESupergenius said:
Carr ran a basic offense at Fresno that required (as Ibar can tell you) little or no decision making on his part and featured the same 2 WR (over 60% of offense/tds). Carr was almost 100% a pocket passer and avg less than 2 ypc rushing.
I've mentioned it before-with little response-that Carr has never run the type of offense he's learning now, so I never understood why so many posters think he will flourish in this offense based upon a) QB decision making and b) throwing on the run and c) throwing to multiple receivers, etc.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
tsip said:
The fans want Cutler to start. Shanahan wants no part of that. Because of the difficulty of the offense.
Plummer had fat numbers his first two years, but his interceptions and ball control were pretty non good. Third year, his overall numbers weren't as big, but he didn't give up the ball.
Oh, and in Plummers first game playing for Denver, he had 0 TDs and 3 interceptions. If that happens to Carr on Sunday, you won't be able to turn on the radio without it blowing up.
And as for the general discussion in the thread about running bootlegs and dink and dunks to help Carr out: It is a fundamental part of the Denver system. Part of it is misdirection and to penalize over pursuit. And part of it is a recognition at least in Denver, that their line size is not ideal to keep a stationary pocket. And their offense is very dink and dunk if that is what the defense is giving them. If the defenders cheat up, the offense is designed to set things up early so that the long ball will be busted later on.
This sounds like cake, but each person on the offense has to do their role precisely to get the defenders to bite the way they are supposed to. A step wrong here or there screws everything up. This is the thing that is hardest to see from a fan perspective. It is also hard because Carr is not someone walking into an offense that has already been running smoothly. Just about everyone is starting fresh, so everyone has to do their jobs to make stuff work.
Yeah, the QB position is the one that makes or breaks the offense, but ultimately, everybody else needs to do their jobs too, but that isn't as fun to write about in the newspaper.
hollywood_texan said:
I've mentioned some of these same thoughts before, in that Caper's and co. were a 'little' surprised by Carr's 'slow learning' and 'decision making.' They tried to correct his throwing motion by having him throw over a ladder, but shelved that idea--never said why, but you can assume. Too, Palmer came into town with this 'big,bad' playbook that he quickly had to 'down size' and simplify--again, think what you want.
Now, Kubiak is doing the same thing with his playbook. While most people have assummed Carr's problems are strictly related to the 'circumstances' around him, it's quite possible the root problem lies in asking someone to do something they can't--some people can grasp things in a timely manner and some folks (even though they try hard) can not--no matter how much time they're given....
"Plummer had fat numbers his first two years, but his interceptions and ball control were pretty non good. Third year, his overall numbers weren't as big, but he didn't give up the ball.
Oh, and in Plummers first game playing for Denver, he had 0 TDs and 3 interceptions. If that happens to Carr on Sunday, you won't be able to turn on the radio without it blowing up."
Well, he did have a little redemption his 2nd game with 3 TDs and his rating is around the 89 mark (Brady is about 90) for his 3 yrs with Denver, though not close to Manning's 100+!
Oh, and in Plummers first game playing for Denver, he had 0 TDs and 3 interceptions. If that happens to Carr on Sunday, you won't be able to turn on the radio without it blowing up."
Well, he did have a little redemption his 2nd game with 3 TDs and his rating is around the 89 mark (Brady is about 90) for his 3 yrs with Denver, though not close to Manning's 100+!
Napa Auto Parts
Veteran
Well David Carr might play like Tim Couch but he has a nice Set of Hair on him who cares if he cant play in this league doesn't he look Awesome when ever he grooms he's hand thru his hair.
and i guess since we have a new coaching staff im willing to give David 5 games to show some improvement before i start praying for us to sign tim couch.
and i guess since we have a new coaching staff im willing to give David 5 games to show some improvement before i start praying for us to sign tim couch.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
Marcus said:
That article is a great read even if its from a baseball beat writer. One thing I like about Justice is that he doesnt worry about keeping good PR with the team (err teams) he covers. He calls it like he sees it and it's generally how it is. I cant remember the old Chron/Post writer's name but his writing reminds me of Dale Robertson? when it comes to his football writing. That isnt necessarily always a good thing but he comes off as more into big picture and feeling rather than details and stats...and I appreciate that from a writer...even if that writer had a very bad white man jheri curl
I agree with (just about) everything he said and finally someone in the media at large has pointed out how rushed and hurried everything is with Carr. He drops back so damn fast that he cant be effectively looking downfield going through reads. Watching other NFL teams play you really get to see the difference between Carr and legit NFL starting QBs. I hope Kubes can do something with this canvas because presently Carr is a broken QB.
doug
p.s. they just showed clips from Kubiak's press conference on ESPN's preview of hte Texans and when he talked about dreaming about bringing a championship to Houston, it did move me and it sounded from the heart. I like the guy alot and if you cant hire Bill Walsh or Mike Holmgren to salvage a QB...well you gotta hire a guy like Kubes.... <3 Kubes
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Wolf said:
Don't you know, that Carr should flourish now after an additional 4 years of experience in a "basic offense" .........run, run, pass, punt..........
Malloy
Hall of Fame
Ok, here is why I like this writeup by Justice. It is fairly objective yet speculative, BUT when being speculative, you as a reader knows, he's not doing the ESPN speculation-is-truth stuff.
All in all a nice read that sums up alot of the fears and sceptisism surrounding Carr at the QB position.
All in all a nice read that sums up alot of the fears and sceptisism surrounding Carr at the QB position.
GP
Go Texans!
Regarding Vinny's viewpoint that Carr can only hit the small stuff, not being able to hit the deep stuff...
Bare with me here.
What about Capers' style and philosophy leads you to believe that Carr HAD anything down the field to begin with? (1) We had one WR threat, AJ, and two guys who we cut and are not exactly torching it up on other teams this year...leading the defense to crowd (and double) AJ and then blitz David to where he couldn't do anything deep, (2) Capers' solution was to retreat even further and do a lot of max protect.
Perhaps, just MAYBE, the whole system itself has played a pretty good hand in causing Carr to regress so badly. I think Carr made a lot of gutsy plays on his own merits, starting his career off, but I think the "reason" he regresses so rapidly last year was due to the entire team collapsing under the colossal weight of an inept team of coaches...and a completely absurd gameplan that was definitely not NFL caliber.
I agree he's havig problems down the field. And if he has those same issues at the end of this season, then "Yeah," something is wrong with the player and NOT anywhere else.
I hope he gets it together.
Bare with me here.
What about Capers' style and philosophy leads you to believe that Carr HAD anything down the field to begin with? (1) We had one WR threat, AJ, and two guys who we cut and are not exactly torching it up on other teams this year...leading the defense to crowd (and double) AJ and then blitz David to where he couldn't do anything deep, (2) Capers' solution was to retreat even further and do a lot of max protect.
Perhaps, just MAYBE, the whole system itself has played a pretty good hand in causing Carr to regress so badly. I think Carr made a lot of gutsy plays on his own merits, starting his career off, but I think the "reason" he regresses so rapidly last year was due to the entire team collapsing under the colossal weight of an inept team of coaches...and a completely absurd gameplan that was definitely not NFL caliber.
I agree he's havig problems down the field. And if he has those same issues at the end of this season, then "Yeah," something is wrong with the player and NOT anywhere else.
I hope he gets it together.
I mentioned this on another thread, but I just want to see something from Carr that will make me want think that Kubes is making progress with him. Just a hint . . just a clue, that he's getting somewhere with the headcase. I'm willing to eat a loss, just to see it.gpshafer_1976 said:
I'm not expecting to see it, though. I guess that goes against the "In Kubiak I trust" mantra, because I do trust him.
"Have a little faith!" Yeah, I know.
(1)Reggie Wayne wasn't always reggie wayne, TJ Houshmandzadeh wasn't always TJ whosYourMama, Steve Smith wasn't always steve smith, Terrell Owens wasn't always T.O., and the list goes on & on. QBs have been getting the job done with one #1 reciever for years. & only a few #2s have really stepped up their game... SteveSmith, T.O., ToryHolt, & maybe T.J.gpshafer_1976 said:
Good QBs make avg recievers look like ReggieWayne, DanteStallworth(we'll see), Bobby Ingram, or Keenan McCardell.
Maybe our #2s were that bad, I'm not saying they weren't....... just saying I don't like that excuse.
(2)Given the situation, there wasn't much else he could do.
The same gameplan(more or less) that won the Steelers, Ravens, and Tampa Bay a SuperBowl. Run the ball, control the clock, and stop people on Defense. That's just football........ nothing wrong with that.gpshafer_1976 said:
gpshafer_1976 said:
why wait till the end of the season?? He had the problem last year, the year before, and the year before that....... He has it in this preseason.... what's wrong with saying he has the problem.
Vinny doesn't think he'll change...... I do..... you do.... what's the big deal?? It's just an opinion.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
we threw the ball on first down far more than you probably think....aj broke it down a few times here but nobody wants to listen or peek into the gamebooks.CloakNNNdagger said:Don't you know, that Carr should flourish now after an additional 4 years of experience in a "basic offense" .........run, run, pass, punt..........
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Vinny said:
Does a hitch pass to AJ (which is a designed play rather than QB discretion) make it a non-basic offense?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Well that's as simplistic as saying all teams have the same game plan--scoring more points than the opposition. Completely aside from any QB debate the coaching last year was a monstrosity which in no way resembled the coaching for the Steelers, Ravens or Bucs.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I think at the end of the day ... people defend Carr because he's a clean cut Christian boy , who's a family / aw shucks kinda guy and was the first pick of the franchise . There are fans who think he's never had a real team around him therefore he has'nt had a fair shot .
On the other hand there is the side which thinks Carr could have never played for a guy like Ditka. Can you imagine the first time Carr sacked himself ... Ditka would have ripped his helmet off and reamed him .
Its funny when fans say Carr needs time with the offense because in my mind thats not the problem ... the other three QBs looked more relaxed in the new offense .
Carr can either start playing like a seasoned vet Sunday or look good with a clipboard but the starting QB position is the one area that I can't see progress . I can't stand when I spend my Sunday afternoon watching the game and see things that stick out like a sore thumb and Davey is never held accountable .
On the other hand there is the side which thinks Carr could have never played for a guy like Ditka. Can you imagine the first time Carr sacked himself ... Ditka would have ripped his helmet off and reamed him .
Its funny when fans say Carr needs time with the offense because in my mind thats not the problem ... the other three QBs looked more relaxed in the new offense .
Carr can either start playing like a seasoned vet Sunday or look good with a clipboard but the starting QB position is the one area that I can't see progress . I can't stand when I spend my Sunday afternoon watching the game and see things that stick out like a sore thumb and Davey is never held accountable .
thunderkyss said:
infantrycak said:
I'm just saying there is nothing wrong with that style of football. I'm not saying the Chicago Bears will win the SuperBowl because they play the same style. We had coaching issues, I'm not debating that.
But if I had to choose what style of offense the Houston Texans will run, it we would be a hardnosed defensive team that runs the football. I don't agree with sitting on a 7 point lead, and running out the clock with 12 minutes to go in the 4th, but I've seen it done, with success, a lot.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
Vinny said:
I may be wrong but I just don't remember this happening that much. That it happens it all is questionable in itself -- throw the friggin ball out of bounds before you run out, I get it -- but I seem to hear this a lot.
Does any one have a stat on how many times Carr "sacked himself?" -- i.e. ran out of bounds or was for whatever other reason blatantly at fault?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
jerek said:
McClain reported that the new coaching staff (specifically who unknown) had reviewed film of Carr and attributed the fault for 20 sacks to him. The time period was not specified but was most likely last year so that would be 20 of 68. That's a bad problem and one which has to be fixed. OTOH 48 sacks which are not Carr's fault is still an abysmal record.
FYI--the play by plays at NFL.com identify when a sack results from running out of bounds--it was 9-11 times last year generally for a loss of 0-2 yds. It's stupid to do but doesn't affect the game near as much as made out around here. The real issue is did he have a receiver down field to make a play and didn't make the good play, not whether he dumped the ball out of bounds for a different bad result.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
infantrycak said:
I remembered that basic quote but I didn't remember the specifics. My recollection was that they had first attributed 48 to the O-line and that left 20 to be divided among Carr, the backfield, etc. Furthermore the "sacking himself" is something I've most typically seen used to describe Carr running out of bounds behind the LOS, though Vinny may have meant it in a larger context.
Either way I'm not denying that taking unnecessary sacks is an area in which Carr specially needs improvement from last year, though I think that he is showing a little improvement in that category already. Just wondering if any one had a more descriptive breakdown.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
jerek said:
I remember the interview clearly and it was 20 to Carr with the rest being split among the OL, RB's and TE's. Carr has two problems. Vinny and others talked about the ROB's thing back in the 2002 season. 2003 and 2004 that went down substantially. 2005 it was back and a problem again--like I said above it is stupid and a problem but not as earth shattering as made out in terms of consequence to the game. Much more importantly, Carr has not shown good pocket presence even before he could credibly be described as beat down due to a lack of a pocket. He doesn't have the feel of a Big Ben or Brady for small moves to help his OL out. That one may be something which improves but probably will never become a strength--IMO that is the more important part of what Vinny is talking about.
I like how we're all assuming that Kubiak will take out Carr if he's not playing well. Sorry but I really doubt that. QBs DO have a double standard and I really think Kubiak will stick with Carr for a long while before he makes a change mostle cause:
1) At his worst, Carr isn't THAT BAD! Yeah you've got to put people around him, but I would definitely say he's a "serviceable" QB, and it's hard to bench your franchise QB when he's just not playing that bad to bench. I'd say he's a better Kyle Boller right now. Kubiak's not going to give up on him for a damn long time...
1) At his worst, Carr isn't THAT BAD! Yeah you've got to put people around him, but I would definitely say he's a "serviceable" QB, and it's hard to bench your franchise QB when he's just not playing that bad to bench. I'd say he's a better Kyle Boller right now. Kubiak's not going to give up on him for a damn long time...
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Lucky said:
New staff and team, same David Carr results. Did I say that out loud? Is that wrong?
TK_Gamer
Veteran
I cant wait to see how many people give carr a fair shake with the situation we have. for instance, when our rookie LT gets out of position and gives up a sack where carr runs out of bounds, who will be honest and blame spencer, or when lundy misses a blitz pickup and carr runs for his life how many will cry happy feet and blame carr for that too. dont get me wrong, if it's his fault its his fault. I just dont see too many on this board being honest and giving carr a fair shake. he will never get a fair shake on this team. at least not from the media and the "fans" on this board.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
lod01 said:
Carr was a good quarterback in 2004. So, I don't know what you think you knew then. Furthermore, Kubiak wasn't dealt these cards, he picked them out of the deck. It was his decision to keep Carr. I share many of the concerns about whether Carr in '06 and beyond will be a good QB- but can't we be honest about things... Kubiak thinks he's the answer at the position over Rosenfels and over those players available in the draft and available via trade or free agent market. Let's see what happens, okay!?
Well if DC runs out of bounds because of the line breaking down without throwing the ball away and avoiding loss of yards, it will be his fault. A good amount of his sack totals are because he ran out of bounds losing yards. Hopefully Kube's reinforced the thinking part to DC to just dump the ball. "Son, you are out of the pocket, throw the ball away and not lose us yards"
That alone will gain us more opportunities to hold on the ball and to score more.
That alone will gain us more opportunities to hold on the ball and to score more.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
Honoring Earl 34 said:
QFT. I agree with you 100%. Not surprised that you are an old school fan. You have seen good QB play during the Oilers tenure here in Houston and NONE of us have seen good QB play with the Texans...even going into our 5th year...You, like me, are sick of the excuses from the fans/media/coaches and are sick of the 'aw shucks' mentality from Carr. Here is to hoping Carr makes a quantum leap from how he looked in the preseason. I just think its funny how everyone last year was like 'its just preseason, were fine' and now people are saying the same damn thing......do these peeps ever learn? I guess its gonna take a 0-16 or 1-15 record for them to get it through their skulls and admit Carr is a bust.
doug ftw
Vinny
shiny happy fan
phan1 said:
There is no assumption on our part. Our head coach said that he'd pull the QB if the situation comes to that point. Kubiak is not going to hitch his career wagon to a horse that cannot pull it, no matter where that horse was drafted or how much money he makes.
Kubiak is a no B.S. item, and truthfulness from the coaching staff is something to get used to after the last regime's cliche'-ridden interviews.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Lucky said:
You would make Reid Gettys proud.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I think its better at this point to try to be an optimist ... having said that I was at my sons JV game and the QB scrambled to by himself time . Finally about a yard from going out of bounds and the LBs approaching rapidly ... he threw the ball out of bounds . A dad yelled " Good play son " I then replied " Dang they've been trying for five years to teach David Carr that " and everyone started cracking up .
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Honoring Earl 34 said:
Not sure where I learned it, but football is a game of feet and inches.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
Vinny said:
*Cheers at Vinny*
Sad thing is it seems the guy signing the checks is the biggest myopic homer of all.....Mr. McNair's inexperience, lack of humility, and stubborness have hurt this team as much of Carr's lack of production and promise.
Dont get me wrong, I love Bob because he brought the NFL back to Houston when it didnt look like we wouldn't get a team till we were all collecting Social Security or worse...but once the 'honeymoon' is over, you have to start holding people accountable. And if you wait too long to hold people accountable and make changes, it can do irrepairable damage to a franchise. This happened at the 3 most important spots of our team..the coach, the GM, and the QB.
The Texans have fixed 2 of the 3 problems with smart choices at HC and GM. Kubes is a local guy that could become our Cowher and hiring Smith as GM is a seemingly great move for our team in that he is skilled, knowledgeable, and young in addition to being a minority in the front office. But still we sit here with Carr at QB and there wasn't even competition in TC...that is the hand of McNair in my honest opinion...
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
Lucky said:
If that ain't the truth, what is?
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Second Honeymoon said:
If you're saying it's McNairs fault, then you're saying Kubiak was a mistake.
McNair hired Kubiak, which was the one who made the decision to keep Carr. McNair shouldn't have to make player decisions. That's what the FO is for. If he was to get involved in player decisions, then he would be putting himself in the same class as Bud Adams, Benson, Jerry, etc.
U4ikrob
Guitar Junky
Good article - On the first page. Skipping past the 10 pages of ....
I like this article better. Kubiaks 3 step plan with David. It seemed to capture all the other points and squash a few rumors running in this thread.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-texans090406&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
David certainly has areas to improve on and IMO we certainly havent seen his best football days here. IMO Kubiak will do like they did with Elway and give David a couple of games to pull up the boot straps and make a good show of things. If he doesnt show good enough ball control on the field he will sit him and play Sage so David can watch and work on getting things under better control.
David must step it up this year bottom line and Kubiak will push him until he does or he breaks down - one or the other. He's not going to let David take the team down long term and knows David has a learning curve and some bad habits to overcome. The same could have been said about Plummer when he came to Denver. If David wants to continue being the starting QB for this team he's going to have to play better - not just harder. He needs to shift gears on gameday and get his head in the game and his game face on - plain and simple. Play smart smart football. Kubiak will have patience with DC and will work him extremely hard to get him game day ready, but that said just from the coaches comments I dont see Kubiak letting the team go 0-2 without pulling DC out and making some changes to make the team better too.
Bottom line - the kid gloves are off - David has a lot to play for this year and I think he will show it. IMO he will struggle a little at first along with some of the other players and start to get in a rhythm towards the middle of the year and the Texans go 7-9. I look for next years team to be quite a bit better than this years.
I like this article better. Kubiaks 3 step plan with David. It seemed to capture all the other points and squash a few rumors running in this thread.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-texans090406&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
David certainly has areas to improve on and IMO we certainly havent seen his best football days here. IMO Kubiak will do like they did with Elway and give David a couple of games to pull up the boot straps and make a good show of things. If he doesnt show good enough ball control on the field he will sit him and play Sage so David can watch and work on getting things under better control.
David must step it up this year bottom line and Kubiak will push him until he does or he breaks down - one or the other. He's not going to let David take the team down long term and knows David has a learning curve and some bad habits to overcome. The same could have been said about Plummer when he came to Denver. If David wants to continue being the starting QB for this team he's going to have to play better - not just harder. He needs to shift gears on gameday and get his head in the game and his game face on - plain and simple. Play smart smart football. Kubiak will have patience with DC and will work him extremely hard to get him game day ready, but that said just from the coaches comments I dont see Kubiak letting the team go 0-2 without pulling DC out and making some changes to make the team better too.
Bottom line - the kid gloves are off - David has a lot to play for this year and I think he will show it. IMO he will struggle a little at first along with some of the other players and start to get in a rhythm towards the middle of the year and the Texans go 7-9. I look for next years team to be quite a bit better than this years.