9/6 Justice article on Carr

[chuckm]

You don't know that teams watch film and defend players based on what they see?

well I figured they did more than take all the little Polaroids (taken during the game) and push pin them up on a bulletin board ....


What I'm asking is what the Chargers could've possibly learned in the Cowboys game that would've allowed them to begin Carr's demise?

Could it have been that his OL stunk and to rush him like there's no tomorrow?

 

[SESupergenius]

I don't have a "short leash"...I've been consistent about him for 4 years now (unlike many, many folks here). I just don't think that Kubiak can take Brian Griese and make him John Elway...or Tommy Maddux and make him Jake Plummer. You are what you are.


The person who injected Vince Young into this thread was you pards....I never mentioned him and wasn't comparing the two....This is a weak tactic, but you are consistent.

Carr had a very respectable year before last years team implosion, we saw steady maturation in his play, he threw for 3500 yards and more TD's than Int's. He was well on his way to becoming a good QB. Now most posters on this board think that the previous coaching staff was responsible for last year, yet Carr is continually being bashed (especially when Young became the flavor of the week). I've watched Plummer in his bad years with Arizona and he was falling as well in his play but Kubiak and his system changed that. That is what I am basing a resurrection of Carr on. No some stat monger that thinks a player should put up Manning numbers immediately.

 

[Runner]

I happen to think Kubiak is doing a great job and do not lose sight of that. He has not been burned yet by his judgements, but we will see as the season rolls along. What is most important to observe is how he rebounds from those decisions that do go awry. I have a feeling he will roll with those punches as well. My trepidation is that the one position that needed to be changed is still with us and unfortunately he touches the ball on every single snap.

I think Kubiak has done a great job too, but I also see the "buddy buddy" point. He seems to have some players on the team who's strongest selling point was "they played for Kubiak before". That could be a tie breaker for deciding between individual talents I guess, but I hate to see that put a lesser talent over the top in a decision.

That being said - I think we can wait a few games to see how that all turns out. Maybe Kubiak knows some things about certain players that we don't because of previous experience that we haven't seen.

If they don't work out maybe that will turn out to be one of Kubiak's weaknesses; we all have them.

 

[hollywood_texan]

well I figured they did more than take all the little Polaroids (taken during the game) and push pin them up on a bulletin board ....


What I'm asking is what the Chargers could've possibly learned in the Cowboys game that would've allowed them to begin Carr's demise?

Could it have been that his OL stunk and to rush him like there's no tomorrow?

I went to both games, I have the distinction of attending both the Texans first win and first loss.

I think the issue you guys are talking is two fold, personnel and coaching. In 2002, the Cowboys personnel was a little a weak and Campo as the head coach, what else can you say.

Chargers had a better squad and better coaching that year than the Cowboys.

 

[SESupergenius]

well I figured they did more than take all the little Polaroids (taken during the game) and push pin them up on a bulletin board ....


What I'm asking is what the Chargers could've possibly learned in the Cowboys game that would've allowed them to begin Carr's demise?

Could it have been that his OL stunk and to rush him like there's no tomorrow?

Nah, it was all on Carr. He was given plenty of time to scan the field. (I've never seen that described about our offensive line the whole time I've been here)

 

[srstex]

4 years and there are some things that seem to be lost in time,
1) The Texans cut their sack total in half from year one to year two,
( Pitts was the starting LT both years )
Then Capers changed the scheme, to one he did not understand,
and we sank again.
2) The GM built a passing team, and Capers had a running offense, that
created the talent with-out a proper scheme.
3) Palmer is in Dallas now. ( or at least the last time I checked )
4) The Texans D set the NFL mark for most consecutive quaters with out
giving up a TD, (14?) then cut Sharper and Glen ???
5) The draft is over there are do overs, Williams was Kubiaks pick and we
will be watching him for some time.
6) No job is secure in the NFL, so if Carr is benched, so be it, Kubiak/Sherman
have a great scheme.

Sunday Sunday Sunday Reliant Energy Stadium BE THERE

 

[DocBar]

I think Kubiak has done a great job too, but I also see the "buddy buddy" point. He seems to have some players on the team who's strongest selling point was "they played for Kubiak before". That could be a tie breaker for deciding between individual talents I guess, but I hate to see that put a lesser talent over the top in a decision.

That being said - I think we can wait a few games to see how that all turns out. Maybe Kubiak knows some things about certain players that we don't because of previous experience that we haven't seen.

If they don't work out maybe that will turn out to be one of Kubiak's weaknesses; we all have them.

It's much easier to take a chance or a pass on a known quantity than an unknown. I can understand Kubes' bias towards players he's been around before. He has a better idea of strengths and weaknesses and what they bring to the table, overall. I think it's a passing thing as he gets his feet under him and has a few more drafts to get his type of players on board.

 

[infantrycak]

Bradford & Gaffney would fall in the same "talent class" as any other reciever to play with the Cowboys during the "triplet" days.

Disclaimer: I'm only saying we are & have been as talented as the teams around the QBs you mentioned. I don't believe our talent level has been what's been holding us back.

You have to be freakin' kidding. The Cowboys had one of the greatest OL's ever with at least one going to the hall of fame someday. Jay Novacek=Billy Miller, yeah in fantasy land. Moose Johnston, Alvin Harper, etc. Heck they fielded almost half the pro-bowl in 1993.

The roster turnover this year (and subsequent inability of many of the players now departed to get jobs) should be a hint that Kubiak violently disagrees about the talent level and the rest of the NFL as well.

 

[Runner]

It's much easier to take a chance or a pass on a known quantity than an unknown. I can understand Kubes' bias towards players he's been around before. He has a better idea of strengths and weaknesses and what they bring to the table, overall. I think it's a passing thing as he gets his feet under him and has a few more drafts to get his type of players on board.

I hope his approach with known players is either:

a) successful in its own right or
b) "a passing thing" as you say.

Our last head coach's greatest problem was his "buddy buddy" loyalty to Pendry and Fangio. I don't want to hear the same song, different verse.

 

[Hulk75]

I guess it largely depends on how you define "a chance to succeed." I think that most people would concur that giving the #1 player in the draft the starting position would the be the only "chance" they need. If they need more than that what was their real value as a #1?

That is probably the most stupidest thing I have ever read.

 

[wolf123]

I think Kubiak has done a great job too, but I also see the "buddy buddy" point. He seems to have some players on the team who's strongest selling point was "they played for Kubiak before". That could be a tie breaker for deciding between individual talents I guess, but I hate to see that put a lesser talent over the top in a decision.

That being said - I think we can wait a few games to see how that all turns out. Maybe Kubiak knows some things about certain players that we don't because of previous experience that we haven't seen.

If they don't work out maybe that will turn out to be one of Kubiak's weaknesses; we all have them.

Not saying that Kubiak does not have a weakness, but this "buddy buddy" point seems to be a little exagerated. For one, 0 players that have played for him before that he "brought" over are starting game 1. He is showing that he will start whomever he believes is ready (see Spencer, Lundy, Sanders, and Daniels) I'm sure Weary is doing well, but is starting because of lingering injury recovery of McKinney. Kubiak has weaknesses, but I don't think the "buddy buddy" problem has jumped into the mix yet. JMHO

 

[infantrycak]

You don't know that teams watch film and defend players based on what they see? Teams just started laying two safetys over the top and he still has yet to beat a cover2

That's a true statement over time but it is a reach as an explanation for the Chargers game. Find me an example of a winning QB sacked 9 times in one game. The Texans got down quickly (yes partially the fault of a Carr INT) 14 pts and then it was a stampede.

 

[Vinny]

That's a true statement over time but it is a reach as an explanation for the Chargers game. Find me an example of a winning QB sacked 9 times in one game.

The cowboys didn't help up top and figured he wasn't going to beat them deep...the Chargers and most teams did after that debacle. I think Carr was as bad as the line when it came to sacks....he sacked himself over and over. That's well documented.

 

[DocBar]

I hope his approach with known players is either:

a) successful in its own right or
b) "a passing thing" as you say.

Our last head coach's greatest problem was his "buddy buddy" loyalty to Pendry and Fangio. I don't want to heart the same song, different verse.

Me too. I don't think he's so much "buddy-buddy" as wanting to get some people he's familiar with and that are familiar with his sytem in place to provide some veteran leadership in different areas of the team. I realy feel that winning is #1 with this guy( Like it is with Mike Shannahan) and if you don't produce on the field or on the staff, you won't be on his team long. Winners surround themselves with winners. Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing repeatedly while expecting different results.

 

[real]

Pitts, Brown, Hogdon, Hill......... Wade, Mckinney, Wiegart..... you can't say Capers didn't try. The draft is a crapshoot. I have no doubt that Capers had a harder time getting quality vets to come to Houston(& having to overpay), what did he have to offer?? People look at Capers, & I doubt they'd think he's a winner....... people look at Kubiak.... the way he talks and everything, and there is little doubt. But my point is you can't say they didn't try.

Part of having a good draft is knowing how to evaluate talent...I think saying the draft is "a crap shoot" is overstated...If it were that much of a crapshoot, why spend hours evaluating talent, watching film, talking to players ??? I understand that all of your picks aren't going to be hit...but when you have more bust than anything else, you are doing something wrong...

ON paper, I believe our team was/is as talented as almost any team in the league. A caught pass here, holding protection half a second longer, or hitting the whole a little harder there, and we wouldn't be having these discussions, & we'd have sent more players to the probowl.

Forgive my ignorance but when you say on paper are you reffering to stats ? couldn't be...I'm guessing it's just a gut feeling which I can respect...But I think across the board the Texans are below the leauge average as far as talent is concerned...and since their is no real judge for talent except ones own perception...I will say "star potential"...I think position for position except WR and maybe DL we have mediocre to below average players...IMO we only have 4 players with big time "star potential"...D-Rob, Mario,AJ and DeMeco...These are the four players on our team that I think are going to be pro-bowl regulars... We have many other players that are certainly capable but I just don't look at the Texans roster and think we are loaded with talent...

*please don't respond saying D.Carr should be the fifth player with "star potential"....I don't care to discuss that....

 

[jmerog]

Exactly why you should not draft a QB in the first round in my opinion. Let them develop on someone else's dime.

interesting angle. i partially agree but i think there are times that it makes a lot of sense to use the draft. I think starting a franchise is often one of those times-unless a known quality veteran is on the market. I like your angle from a cap/money standpoint though. Economical and savy.

 

[infantrycak]

I think Kubiak has done a great job too, but I also see the "buddy buddy" point. He seems to have some players on the team who's strongest selling point was "they played for Kubiak before". That could be a tie breaker for deciding between individual talents I guess, but I hate to see that put a lesser talent over the top in a decision.

Who starting falls into that category? The biggest decisions on O are Spencer a draft pick even over veteran Salaam who has played for him and Lundy over Dayne.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

That is probably the most stupidest thing I have ever read.

Yes it is if you are not in business. Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) and Return on Investment (ROI) are what drive spending at the Corporate Officer level. When the NFL went to a salary cap teams started looking at acquisitions, tenure and development a little bit differently.

 

[infantrycak]

The cowboys didn't help up top and figured he wasn't going to beat them deep...the Chargers and most teams did after that debacle. I think Carr was as bad as the line when it came to sacks....he sacked himself over and over. That's well documented.

None of the sacks in the San Diego game were running out of bounds sacks. Could he have avoided some?--sure maybe. JMO but it is overstated to say San Diego had figured Carr out in that game. Like HT said the talent was better and so was the coaching.

 

[Hulk75]

The cowboys didn't help up top and figured he wasn't going to beat them deep...the Chargers and most teams did after that debacle. I think Carr was as bad as the line when it came to sacks....he sacked himself over and over. That's well documented.

Over and Over.............really.

Well I just happened to watch the Titans highlight film from last year, I believe I saw 5 sacks were OUR qb had maybe 1 second to get the ball off, I mean as soon as he snapped the ball he had a guy in his face.

I saw a play last year against the Titans were he got the snap and while he was leaning back to hand the ball off Albert Haynsworth got a hand on his jersey and almost pulled him down, thats just stupid.

 

[DocBar]

Exactly why you should not draft a QB in the first round in my opinion. Let them develop on someone else's dime.

Isn't that about as risky as drafting one? If a player has developed into a quality player, most teams try to lock them up. If he's available, he's probably not panned out very well, very expensive, or both.

 

[infantrycak]

Yes it is if you are not in business. Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) and Return on Investment (ROI) are what drive spending at the Corporate Officer level. When the NFL went to a salary cap teams started looking at acquisitions, tenure and development a little bit differently.

That's all well and good but you haven't responded to the problem of what to do with the #1 if you have it. Trade down is sometimes an option and sometimes it is not. At #1--QB, DE, WR, LT and CB are about the only positions which make sense cap wise. In the 2002 draft there were 2 players in those positions who have proven to be worth the #1 draft pick--Julius Peppers and Dwight Freeney.

 

[TexanFanInCC]

"Wide receiver Eric Moulds is organizing weekly lunches with Carr and Johnson.

"It's an opportunity to know exactly what your quarterback is thinking," Moulds said. "What are your checks in certain situations? I think David realizes he has to slow down and go through his read progression. Once David learns that, he'll manage the game a lot better.""

i thought this was an interesting piece in that article. i like the little get togethers. apparently it worked for vince young last season at texas when he got together with the recievers and put in extra time that ultimately paid off. lets hope the guys can do this as well. i like how guys like moulds are taking the responsibility to help carr's confidence.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Not saying that Kubiak does not have a weakness, but this "buddy buddy" point seems to be a little exagerated. For one, 0 players that have played for him before that he "brought" over are starting game 1. He is showing that he will start whomever he believes is ready (see Spencer, Lundy, Sanders, and Daniels) I'm sure Weary is doing well, but is starting because of lingering injury recovery of McKinney. Kubiak has weaknesses, but I don't think the "buddy buddy" problem has jumped into the mix yet. JMHO

Parcells knows what type of player it takes to succeed . He likes to surround himself with his players to show the young guys the ropes . If Kubiak can accomplish the same things more power to him .

To all the people worried about Wand , ask yourself who picked him up .

 

[Runner]

Who starting falls into that category? The biggest decisions on O are Spencer a draft pick even over veteran Salaam who has played for him and Lundy over Dayne.

I think it hurts our depth more than the starting line-up. You know me - I think Wand was better than Salaam. I don't get the Dayne pick-up at all. Things like that.

I thought we picked up some other depth players from waivers that had been associated with him before; it seems I read that when people commented on them. If I'm wrong about any others, maybe I'm seeing ghosts.

I don't know if he wants to play "his" rookies over players already with the Texans so I'll leave that out. Daniels over Putzier certainly wouldn't fit into that category.

 

[infantrycak]

Isn't that about as risky as drafting one? If a player has developed into a quality player, most teams try to lock them up. If he's available, he's probably not panned out very well, very expensive, or both.

Exactly--successful people will be locked up. At best you are looking for gambles such as Plummer and Brees who are still on very expensive contracts. This plan is one for continual turnover as the AJ Feely's and Quincy Carter's of the NFL pass thru looking for a Jake Delhomme.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Over and Over.............really.

Well I just happened to watch the Titans highlight film from last year, I believe I saw 5 sacks were OUR qb had maybe 1 second to get the ball off, I mean as soon as he snapped the ball he had a guy in his face.

I saw a play last year against the Titans were he got the snap and while he was leaning back to hand the ball off Albert Haynsworth got a hand on his jersey and almost pulled him down, thats just stupid.

So you say its .5% Carr's fault and 99.5% everyone else's ?

 

[Hulk75]

Yes it is if you are not in business. Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) and Return on Investment (ROI) are what drive spending at the Corporate Officer level. When the NFL went to a salary cap teams started looking at acquisitions, tenure and development a little bit differently.

Why is it we have not gotten what we paid for? Why is that?

 

[Hulk75]

So you say its .5% Carr's fault and 99.5% everyone else's ?

Yea thats what I am saying.

 

[Runner]

Parcells knows what type of player it takes to succeed . He likes to surround himself with his players to show the young guys the ropes . If Kubiak can accomplish the same things more power to him .

To all the people worried about Wand , ask yourself who picked him up .

What's your Wand point?

So if somebody picks him up later this week or next would that indicate to you it was a mistake to cut him?

I think the decision to cut Wand and who picks him up when are two unrelated things.

 

[SESupergenius]

The cowboys didn't help up top and figured he wasn't going to beat them deep...the Chargers and most teams did after that debacle. I think Carr was as bad as the line when it came to sacks....he sacked himself over and over. That's well documented.

Wow, I still can't get over how you summed up our QB only after the 2nd game of a franchise, a FRANCHISE! Talk about no clue. I can't believe you are even going there with the talent level we've had here the past few years. Kubiak pretty much wipes out the previous regimes players because they sucked and backs the ability of Carr, I'm fine with that.

 

[Hulk75]

Wow, I still can't get over how you summed up our QB only after the 2nd game of a franchise, a FRANCHISE! Talk about no clue. I can't believe you are even going there with the talent level we've had here the past few years. Kubiak pretty much wipes out the previous regimes players because they sucked and backs the ability of Carr, I'm fine with that.

Finally some reason, a person that knows what they are talking about.

 

[Vinny]

Wow, I still can't get over how you summed up our QB only after the 2nd game of a franchise, a FRANCHISE! Talk about no clue. I can't believe you are even going there with the talent level we've had here the past few years. Kubiak pretty much wipes out the previous regimes players because they sucked and backs the ability of Carr, I'm fine with that.

I didn't. This is just a strawman argument. Cheap mb tactics are your specialty it seems.

 

[Porky]

Let's face it, Carr is going to break the alltime sack record at his current pace, and all his sacks are against one QB. I have been a Carr defender in the past, but over the last year, I can no longer keep defending the guy. I see what I see, based on watching QB play for parts of 4 decades. You can smear lipstick all over a pig and name it Jenna Jamison, but in the end, it's still just going to oink. At this point, I am really beginning to doubt that Carr can be resureected. I am willing to give him to the bye week to show that he can be a real NFL QB, but I am not holding my breath waiting either. If he looks as bad in the first 4 weeks as the pre-season, I for one, will be calling for a change. As Justice said, in year 5, it's all about production, so I want to see David earn that extravagant bonus. Here's hoping he does.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Yea thats what I am saying.

I figured if we can get a percentage , then it becomes clear for the blame barometer . I'll go 15% Carr and 85% everyone else . Mainly Casserly ,Capers , and Pendry . .

 

[hollywood_texan]

"Wide receiver Eric Moulds is organizing weekly lunches with Carr and Johnson.

"It's an opportunity to know exactly what your quarterback is thinking," Moulds said. "What are your checks in certain situations? I think David realizes he has to slow down and go through his read progression. Once David learns that, he'll manage the game a lot better.""

i thought this was an interesting piece in that article. i like the little get togethers. apparently it worked for vince young last season at texas when he got together with the recievers and put in extra time that ultimately paid off. lets hope the guys can do this as well. i like how guys like moulds are taking the responsibility to help carr's confidence.

I think the issue though is that Moulds organized this. He just got to the Texans. You would have thought AJ or Carr would have organized this type of thing.

Carr just doesn't seem proactive from what I have seen from the field and read about his locker room presence. I am far from seeing everything though...

As for Vince, he was the leader of the Longhorns last year and took it upon himself without any one asking him, as I understand it. Spring drills before the Championship season were optional, Vince wrote on the board, "If you want to beat Ohio State, practice with me at this time." Everyone showed up. Right now, Vince isn't starting but from what I have read, the Titans is his team.

 

[Runner]

I think the issue though is that Moulds organized this. He just got to the Texans. You would have thought AJ or Carr would have organized this type of thing.

That is an important issue - but I don't know if this type of stuff was done last year. I think most people will assume no. I doubt it happened much, but that's a guess.

Good for Moulds though. Good for Moulds.

 

[infantrycak]

You can smear lipstick all over a pig and name it Jenna Jamison, but in the end, it's still just going to oink.

Funny, Nina Hartley used to walk her pig around the Berkeley campus--I guess you got a choice.

 

[infantrycak]

I think the issue though is that Moulds organized this. He just got to the Texans. You would have thought AJ or Carr would have organized this type of thing.

Carr just doesn't seem proactive from what I have seen from the field and read about his locker room presence. I am far from seeing everything though...

There have been a few reports about Carr calling AJ before the draft, having him down to stay with him immediately afterwards and holding some extra workout sessions with him during the off-seasons. No doubt Carr has not frequently been been a visible motivator on the sideline hence the Texans talking to him about it. You can see he is making efforts to do that this year.

Right now, Vince isn't starting but from what I have read, the Titans is his team.

Vince is a natural leader--he evidently took over a team huddle chant the other day when normally that is done by a vet.

 

[HOU-TEX]

There have been a few reports about Carr calling AJ before the draft, having him down to stay with him immediately afterwards and holding some extra workout sessions with him during the off-seasons. No doubt Carr has not frequently been been a visible motivator on the sideline hence the Texans talking to him about it. You can see he is making efforts to do that this year.

At times I saw him trying to motivate the team during the preseason games. IMO, to truely be a leader of a team, you must be able to lead by example first. Until he does that, the offense will remain without leadership. That's why I think D-Ryans is eventually going to be an outstanding leader.

 

[Double Barrel]

Teams just started laying two safetys over the top and he still has yet to beat a cover2

But he's only had 60 games. jeesh, some folks are soooo impatient. shall we talk after 120 games?

 

[Marcus]

But he's only had 60 games. jeesh, some folks are soooo impatient. shall we talk after 120 games?

God! The fans are going to get so ugly this Sunday at Reliant, it won't even be funny.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

God! The fans are going to get so ugly this Sunday at Reliant, it won't even be funny.

We fans are not the sharpest knives in the drawer . It could get ugly in the first half and Carr gets booed unmercifully . In the second half he gets hot and throws two long bombs and becomes a hero . Balls in his court .

 

[SESupergenius]

It's just crazy. These short leash fans are going to make it long season. Kubiak is supposed to waive his magic wand and we turn this team into a 13-3 record. I can't count how many QB's have struggled in their early years and then gone on to become very good Qb's, and almost all of them didn't have the expansion team to deal with. With Kubiak on board we are now starting to see a real team being placed on the field with new players at almost all of the positions on this team and yet. I laugh at this because some of the veteran posters (Vinny) were calling out the folks last year who pointed out that this team was not very good and the offseason changes were a complete dibacle, right before the first game. The "chicken littles" as we were called, knew that this team was in a deep downward spiral at the time and we ranted and raved about the direction of the team. Come to find out, the "chicken littles" were dead on. No we have come full circle where we have fired the whole coaching staff, hired a fresh face in a successful program, ditched the architect of this team, drafted decent players, brought in pro-bowl caliber free agents, and installed offensive and defensive schemes that have been successful. Now who is the chicken little? Funny as hell.

 

[CarrIsFine]

No, that is wrong and you are making that up. I was totally in Carr's corner until......he played the game full time and started to display is talents to the NFL world. I was dogging Jaws for dissing Carr leading up to the opening game of 2002....I defended the pick to everyone. Go look it up at houstonprofootball.com if you don't believe me.

I don't like Carr's game for one reason, and one reason only...because it is bad. That's pretty much the long and short of it.

My bad, you haven't like Carr since Week 2 of 2002. My point is that at least give him this year. If he doesn't show improvement after a year with Kubiak, then fine, he doesn't have what it takes. How come you don't pick apart any defensive players like you do Carr? The defense was dead last in the league last year, there has to be some players with "bad game" on the defensive side off the ball.

 

[SESupergenius]

How come you don't pick apart any defensive players like you do Carr? The defense was dead last in the league last year, there has to be some players with "bad game" on the defensive side off the ball.

...(crickets chirping)...........(crickets chirping)........

 

[eriadoc]

Personally, I fall into the camp stating the opinion that Carr has had a very bad set of circumstances. In the end, however, all that matters is whether he can be resurrected. If he can't, draft his replacement next year and move on.

As for the financial ramifications, I don't put any of that on Carr, sorry. He has to play well whether he makes $8 million or $50 a game. His performance is what it is. The team around him influences how well he'll do. As for the business part of it, that falls squarely on the GM, capologists, and ultimately Bob McNair. If Carr isn't worth whatever we're paying, don't pay it. I'm not going to bash Carr's game because he's making $8 million this year - I'll bash because he has happy feet, has no poise, and has no pocket presence. All professional athletes make too much money as it is and the only way any of it matters is if you start measuring ROI and TOC, at which point, you're squarely analyzing the performance of the front office, not the QB.

 

[real]

My bad, you haven't like Carr since Week 2 of 2002. My point is that at least give him this year. If he doesn't show improvement after a year with Kubiak, then fine, he doesn't have what it takes. How come you don't pick apart any defensive players like you do Carr? The defense was dead last in the league last year, there has to be some players with "bad game" on the defensive side off the ball.

Maybe they don't matter as much....oh and most of our starters on defense are gone or not starting anymore...just a thought...

 

[Vinny]

I've picked apart a ton of defenders...Robaire Smith...Foreman, and Coleman come to mind off the top of my head. This straw man stuff is just too much....give it up.

 

[Vinny]

My bad, you haven't like Carr since Week 2 of 2002. My point is that at least give him this year. If he doesn't show improvement after a year with Kubiak, then fine, he doesn't have what it takes. How come you don't pick apart any defensive players like you do Carr? The defense was dead last in the league last year, there has to be some players with "bad game" on the defensive side off the ball.

no, go to houstonprofootball.com and search "Rob Johnson, David Carr and Vinny". That thread pointing out Carr's long term problems was really around the time I saw enough of him to be down on his long term potential. That was in 2003 sometime. You can also find me defending Carr when Jaws lit him up on ESPN before the 2002 season started if you look.

All the crap you guys are dishing is pure straw man tripe.