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What is Sage's value?--Sage Frustrated

CloakNNNdagger said:
After last season, from all signs to date, Kubiak does not seem to be sure if, with this offer, the Texans may be contemplating trading away their backup or their starter quarterback. Like it or not, there IS a quarterback controvery in Houston.
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riiiiiiiight.. except those little tell-tale signs of them saying 'matt is our starting qb' or kubiak saying at the end of last year 'sage can/wants (not sure which) be a starter somewhere in this league'= not a ringing endorsement
 
There is no QB controversy, but if Matt sucks and Sage doesn't, Sage will start.

The same goes for everyone else.
 
Last season Sage was at least as valuable to us as Schaub was, and we don't have enough evidence on Schaub yet to tell if that trend will continue (durability?). I wouldn't even contemplate trading Rosenfels for less than a 2nd, with the caveat that I'd have to have a good alternative available before I'd trade him period.
 
Sage for a 3rd rounder, you definitely have to consider it.

I understand the run on QBs and injuries. But to make a playoff run, you generally need a QB to play the entire year. Your kind of sunk anyway if your starting QB goes down. I understand the insurance policy concept and the run on QBs, but it's too steep of a premium considering where the Texans are in personnel. Certain insurance policies are needed all the time or are just over insurance.

Which brings me to my next point. It is still a stretch for the Texans to make the playoffs next year at this time. They need impact starters at multiple positions. If they trade Rosenfels for a 3rd round pick and they have a couple players they have scouted that could start immediately and make an impact, you really have to consider this deal if it's out there.

Keeping 2 QBs and not have a 2nd round pick for two years is tough to swallow and make the playoffs in 2008 give the state of affairs of the Texans. Which is the reason why I was very skeptical of Schaub deal from the beginning. Good QB prospect, but the timing just wasn't right. Too much risk and bad timing.

What I am saying is, you have to be at the right place, at the right time, to make big things happen.

Texans need impact players, having one of those guys riding the pine because they both can't start at the same time, doesn't seem prudent if you can get value from one of them in a starting player that plays immediately with impact.

You have to consider the trade...
 
So after next year, when we don't make the playoffs again, and Sage leaves via Free Agency, I think that we will all miss what could have been another starter somewhere else on the team.
 
Maddict5 said:
thats the spirit :fans:

wake me up in 12 months
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Just being realilistic.

We are in the toughest division in the NFL, we went 1-5 in our division last year, and the teams are the top of the AFC South (Indy and Jax) are not likely to fall off that much.

Even if we do make the playoffs next year, Sage is still likely to leave, and we will still be missing what could have been a possible starter at another position.
 
Hoth-Boy said:
Just being realilistic.

We are in the toughest division in the NFL, we went 1-7 in our division last year, and the teams are the top of the AFC South (Indy and Jax) are not likely to fall off that much.

Even if we do make the playoffs next year, Sage is still likely to leave, and we will still be missing what could have been a possible starter at another position.
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or matt could get injured again and sage carries us into the playoffs.... or we trade sage and the 3rd rder is a bust

if its and buts....
 
Hoth-Boy said:
Just being realilistic.

We are in the toughest division in the NFL, we went 1-7 in our division last year, and the teams are the top of the AFC South (Indy and Jax) are not likely to fall off that much.

Even if we do make the playoffs next year, Sage is still likely to leave, and we will still be missing what could have been a possible starter at another position.
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The AFC South isn't the toughest division in 2008 because no games have been played. Also, we went 1-5, and you never know who will fall off that much.

Sage can't leave until after the 2009 season, so you probably don't have to worry about it anyway broheezy.
 
Maddict5 said:
or matt could get injured again and sage carries us into the playoffs.... or we trade sage and the 3rd rder is a bust

if its and buts....
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Matt got injured this year and did Sage carry us anwhere?

Guys, this is just an opinion debate. I would value the 10th pick in the 3rd round more then a back-up QB. Espically if I was a fan of a young team.

Now if we had made the playoffs last year and were not only looking to get back but challenge for a title, Sage would certainly be worth more then the draft pick. But that is not the case.
 
Hoth-Boy said:
So after next year, when we don't make the playoffs again, and Sage leaves via Free Agency, I think that we will all miss what could have been another starter somewhere else on the team.
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Execellent point, players are gonna move around, you can't keep them forever if some one wants them.

Besides, look at the teams that are compete for the playoffs every year. They don't have a quality back ups to rely upon. This whole concept seems to be a false sense of security because it really doesn't help to make the playoffs when you look at the odds.

It's nice to have 2 starter QBs, but just enjoy it while it lasts and be prepared to move on if you can get good value. Isn't that how we ended up with Schuab in the first place?
 
Absolutely NOT

Sage is a Texan and a Great Back up who should be starting. We should have left Schaub with the dirty birds but now we have two great QB's. Mrs. Schaub gets hit in the pinky and we need Sage more than any pick so NO WAY.

I sure am glad all you Boneheads who say do the deal are just that, Boneheads
 
hollywood_texan said:
Sage for a 3rd rounder, you definitely have to consider it.

I understand the run on QBs and injuries. But to make a playoff run, you generally need a QB to play the entire year. Your kind of sunk anyway if your starting QB goes down. I understand the insurance policy concept and the run on QBs, but it's too steep of a premium considering where the Texans are in personnel. Certain insurance policies are needed all the time or are just over insurance.

Which brings me to my next point. It is still a stretch for the Texans to make the playoffs next year at this time. They need impact starters at multiple positions. If they trade Rosenfels for a 3rd round pick and they have a couple players they have scouted that could start immediately and make an impact, you really have to consider this deal if it's out there.

Keeping 2 QBs and not have a 2nd round pick for two years is tough to swallow and make the playoffs in 2008 give the state of affairs of the Texans. Which is the reason why I was very skeptical of Schaub deal from the beginning. Good QB prospect, but the timing just wasn't right. Too much risk and bad timing.

What I am saying is, you have to be at the right place, at the right time, to make big things happen.

Texans need impact players, having one of those guys riding the pine because they both can't start at the same time, doesn't seem prudent if you can get value from one of them in a starting player that plays immediately with impact.

You have to consider the trade...
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I hear you and we do have to consider it and we need more impact players, but Sage proved his worth last year, if we let him go we still have another hole to fill. Like I said robbing Peter to pay Sage.

I would rather keep Sage (for the third round offer) and address existing needs.

As far as the Texans not making the playoffs next year, I totally disagree. The Giants went 8-8 and then won the superbowl, why shouldnt we expect playoffs. We should always expect playoffs. And the Steelers went on a tear a couple of years back in the AFC and won the SB.

I agree about good timing to make big things happen, but I am not ready to say the Schaub deal was any of that. I think he flash some potential, he struggled some his first year starting and got banged up along the way. I think he will have a much better year and get hit a lot less often with an effective running game orchestrated by Gibb's ZBS.
 
Joe Texan said:
Absolutely NOT

Sage is a Texan and a Great Back up who should be starting. We should have left Schaub with the dirty birds but now we have two great QB's. Mrs. Schaub gets hit in the pinky and we need Sage more than any pick so NO WAY.

I sure am glad all you Boneheads who say do the deal are just that, Boneheads
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I'm sure that all you guys who say you're 45 sure act like it...oh...wait...nevermid.
 
hollywood_texan said:
It's nice to have 2 starter QBs, but just enjoy it while it lasts and be prepared to move on if you can get good value. Isn't that how we ended up with Schuab in the first place?
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It is, but Sage still has 2, count 'em 2, seasons left on his contract buddies. So he could still stay here, start a few more times at the end of the season, get some more value (Cause he seriously shot himself in the foot that last game vs Jacksonville, he was pretty bad), and then we could get picks for him.

The point is, he's not leaving after next season as a UFA, because he's still under contract at that point.
 
Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith don't have the luxury to wait for next year. Of course they need to keep their expectations tempered, but at the same time each and every year their goal needs to--and should be-- to win as many games as possible.

I see your Sage leaving after next year scenario and raise you this one:

Lets suppose Schaub gets hurt, we have no capable back-up and as a result we go something stupid like 5-11 or even worse, the rest of the team is playing on a play-off level and we come up short of the post seson because of our back up QB.

Nobody's happy about that, Not me, not Bob McNair, nor any other fan of the Houston Texans. Not even a hypothetical third rd. starter would be able to make that nasty taste go away.

But enough of the rambling...My point is that even with tempered expectations you need to give your team it's best chance to win as many games as possible year in and year out.

I could very easily see a scenario where Schaub gets hurt and Sage is still able to have us in the play-off hunt vs. not having Sage, Schaub getting hurt and the losses start to pile up only further making it harder to shake the stigma of being a loser exspansion team.

I'm comfortable with the decison to make our team as good as it can be next year and not make decisons based on what may or may not happen two seasons from now. We may not be "superbowl contenders" in reality, but don't underestimate the effect WINNING has on a teams psyche.

That's all.
 
b0ng said:
It is, but Sage still has 2, count 'em 2, seasons left on his contract buddies. So he could still stay here, start a few more times at the end of the season, get some more value (Cause he seriously shot himself in the foot that last game vs Jacksonville, he was pretty bad), and then we could get picks for him.

The point is, he's not leaving after next season as a UFA, because he's still under contract at that point.
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Also, Sage's contract is up the same year that we have a decision on whether or not to extend Schaub for 3 years. It makes sense to hold on to him until that time... Also, if he leaves us via free agency we will likely get some decent compensation via compensatory draft picks.
 
b0ng said:
It is, but Sage still has 2, count 'em 2, seasons left on his contract buddies. So he could still stay here, start a few more times at the end of the season, get some more value (Cause he seriously shot himself in the foot that last game vs Jacksonville, he was pretty bad), and then we could get picks for him.

The point is, he's not leaving after next season as a UFA, because he's still under contract at that point.
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Yeah, and his trade value is higher because it's less risk for a team that acquires him because they have two years to evaluate his progress at a cheap price.

Besides, Schaub could go down again, Sage bombs and then there is no value.

Making the right decision at the right time is how you succeed.

I am not saying to do the Sage trade, but you have to seriously consider it to fill a need at another position with an immediate impact player.

Having both Sage and Schaub together doesn't make us the Texans a playoff team considering the current roster and draft picks available because they play in the AFC South.
 
Hardcore Texan said:
As far as the Texans not making the playoffs next year, I totally disagree. The Giants went 8-8 and then won the superbowl, why shouldnt we expect playoffs. We should always expect playoffs. And the Steelers went on a tear a couple of years back in the AFC and won the SB.
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I disagree with comparing the Texans roster/situation with the Giants and Steelers that won recent Super Bowls.

I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it.
 
hollywood_texan said:
I am not saying to do the Sage trade, but you have to seriously consider it to fill a need at another position with an immediate impact player.
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How do you know we aren't trading away a good back-up QB for a third rd. bust, or a Bennie Jopru who can't stay healthy ?

We pretty much know what we have in Sage...

Why assume that this hypothetical 3rd rounder is "an immediate impact player" ?
 
Joe Texan said:
Absolutely NOT

Sage is a Texan and a Great Back up who should be starting. We should have left Schaub with the dirty birds but now we have two great QB's. Mrs. Schaub gets hit in the pinky and we need Sage more than any pick so NO WAY.

I sure am glad all you Boneheads who say do the deal are just that, Boneheads
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You think Sage, and Kubiak doesn't know that?

He going to leave us cause he wants a starting job. Because hes capable of starting, he knows it, we know it, and he going to leave us when he becomes a FA.

Boneheads? A boneheaded move is not getting anything from him before it happens. Guess what Sage isn't going to start if Schaub is healthy, NEVER. Kubiak hand-picked Schaub, and that's his QB.

Even though Sage isn't going to say anything about it, you know he wants to start. This is the NFL, who in the league doesn't want to start? Look at it from his POV.

Btw, you sound like a Schaub hater, and a ROF (Rosenfels only fan(sorry been on clutchfans alot lately)).
 
Polo said:
How do you know we aren't trading away a good back-up QB for a third rd. bust, or a Bennie Jopru who can't stay healthy ?

We pretty much know what we have in Sage...

Why assume that this hypothetical 3rd rounder is "an immediate impact player" ?
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The reason you have a scouting department is to find those impact players in the later rounds at great value.

Any player can hurt at any time in the NFL, unless it is Brett Favre...
 
Joe Texan said:
Absolutely NOT

Mrs. Schaub gets hit in the pinky and we need Sage more than any pick so NO WAY.
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That's pretty harsh don't you think?

Schaub took two hits last season that any qb in the league would have been injured from. To imply that he is injury prone is unfair.

I know one thing for sure...if I had taken the hit under the helmet in SD like he did, I would still be in a coma or perhaps just recalling my name and address.
 
hollywood_texan said:
The reason you have a scouting department is to find those impact players in the later rounds at great value.

Any player can hurt at any time in the NFL, unless it is Brett Favre...
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That didn't really answer my question.

Seems like a lot of people are subsribing to the "the grass is always greener on the other side" logic.

Nothing wrong with that, cuz sometimes....it is actally greener...

Still not guaranteed tho'...

But besides that:

Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith don't have the luxury to wait for next year. Of course they need to keep their expectations tempered, but at the same time each and every year their goal needs to--and should be-- to win as many games as possible.

I see your Sage leaving after next year scenario and raise you this one:

Lets suppose Schaub gets hurt, we have no capable back-up and as a result we go something stupid like 5-11 or even worse, the rest of the team is playing on a play-off level and we come up short of the post seson because of our back up QB.

Nobody's happy about that, Not me, not Bob McNair, nor any other fan of the Houston Texans. Not even a hypothetical third rd. starter would be able to make that nasty taste go away.

But enough of the rambling...My point is that even with tempered expectations you need to give your team it's best chance to win as many games as possible year in and year out. I'm thinking Sage gives us a better chance to do that than a possible 3rd rd. starter...key word being possible...

I could very easily see a scenario where Schaub gets hurt and Sage is still able to have us in the play-off hunt vs. not having Sage, Schaub getting hurt and the losses start to pile up only further making it harder to shake the stigma of being a loser exspansion team.

I'm comfortable with the decison to make our team as good as it can be next year and not make decisons based on what may or may not happen two seasons from now. We may not be "superbowl contenders" in reality, but don't underestimate the effect WINNING has on a teams psyche.

That's all.
 
I sleep better at night knowing that Sage and Ron will be there to take the hits late in the season once Matt and Ahman get injured.

At the same time, those tackles the Texans took makes me think there could be a lot gained from that extra third round/second round pick...

Guess I'll have to sleep on it.:sleep:
 
hollywood_texan said:
Yeah, and his trade value is higher because it's less risk for a team that acquires him because they have two years to evaluate his progress at a cheap price.

Besides, Schaub could go down again, Sage bombs and then there is no value.

Making the right decision at the right time is how you succeed.

I am not saying to do the Sage trade, but you have to seriously consider it to fill a need at another position with an immediate impact player.

Having both Sage and Schaub together doesn't make us the Texans a playoff team considering the current roster and draft picks available because they play in the AFC South.
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The guy could set the league on fire for two games and warrant a team giving us a 1st rounder next year, so then what?

I don't get how people on this forum know that because Sage and Schaub are on the roster we aren't going to the playoffs. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Also 3rd rounders are not drafted to be immediate "impact" players. If they become one that's great, but if you're in the 3rd round looking for that "guy" that will take you over the top, then you are Matt Millen.
 
hollywood_texan said:
It really did answer your question.

Look at the teams that win and get deep in the playoffs.

They draft well, and they draft impact starters in the later rounds.

Giants are a perfect example of that.
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Why assume that this hypothetical 3rd rounder is "an immediate impact player" ?

That was my question.

I still haven't gotten a good reason besides it's the scouting departments job. Good picks in later rds. make teams good.

mmmmmk.....:ok:

Does that really answer the question ?
 
b0ng said:
The guy could set the league on fire for two games and warrant a team giving us a 1st rounder next year, so then what?

I don't get how people on this forum know that because Sage and Schaub are on the roster we aren't going to the playoffs. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Also 3rd rounders are not drafted to be immediate "impact" players. If they become one that's great, but if you're in the 3rd round looking for that "guy" that will take you over the top, then you are Matt Millen.
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I hear ya, but knowing when to get and get out is what makes a successful person.

It's the old business concept of buy low, sell high.

Look, at the teams that win consistently and the Super Bowl winners. They don't carry 2 starting QBs on their roster.

It's nice thing to have and you work to get it. But, it isn't going to last forever. Enjoy it while you have it and move on to get value.
 
Texan's 3rd round picks:

06' - Charles Spencer & Eric Winston

07' - Jacoby Jones

What do they have in common, they were/is stars in the making, for JJ and CS before injury. Solid starters with high ceilings.

Sage? Well, you're looking at his best right now, a BACK-UP. I honestly think if he goes somewhere else, he'll return to his Pre-Texans form, which was a nobody.

I'll take that 3rd for him. In fact I bet Vikings still want this guy. They're just bluffing, to try and get Texans to lower their asking price.

Or maybe I'm delusional, who knows.
 
Polo said:
Why assume that this hypothetical 3rd rounder is "an immediate impact player" ?

That was my question.

I still haven't gotten a good reason besides it's the scouting departments job. Good picks in later rds. make teams good.

mmmmmk.....:ok:

Does that really answer the question ?
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I don't know how else to put this.

Look at any Super Bowl winner and comb through their roster. See how they acquired some key players. Most of those key players come from drafting, and drafting in the later rounds.

If an NFL team cannot draft in the later rounds, they are going to have serious problems competing. Example, the Texans...

There is a 53 man roster and 22 starters on offense and defense.
 
J-Russ said:
Texan's 3rd round picks:

06' - Charles Spencer & Eric Winston

07' - Jacoby Jones
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You realize that only one of those players has seen significant action, and I think Winston's value vs. Sage's value is very much debatable.

The other two are pretty much balls of potential. Spencer is barely that. He's a hope and a prayer.

I don't get how that helps your case.
 
hollywood_texan said:
I hear ya, but knowing when to get and get out is what makes a successful person.

It's the old business concept of buy low, sell high.

Look, at the teams that win consistently and the Super Bowl winners. They don't carry 2 starting QBs on their roster.

It's nice thing to have and you work to get it. But, it isn't going to last forever. Enjoy it while you have it and move on to get value.
Click to expand...

I would argue that Sage for a 3rd rounder is selling fair versus selling high.
 
hollywood_texan said:
I don't know how else to put this.

Look at any Super Bowl winner and comb through their roster. See how they acquired some key players. Most of those key players come from drafting, and drafting in the later rounds.

If an NFL team cannot draft in the later rounds, they are going to have serious problems competing. Example, the Texans...

There is a 53 man roster and 22 starters on offense and defense.
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So you knew the Gianst were legit Super Bowl contenders all along ? Because of the late rd. talent they had drafted?

I'm pretty sure you just knew the Pats would fall short because of stockpiling on WR's via free agency instead of through the draft.

riiiight.

I'm glad you simplified the game of football down to such an exact science. Draft late, trade high. Someone get on the phone with Texan management and coaching staff pronto!!!

I don't get these set rules when it comes to football. I think every situation needs to be evaluated by it self.
 
Polo said:
You realize that only one of those players has seen significant action, and I think Winston's value vs. Sage's value is very much debatable.

The other two are pretty much balls of potential.

I don't get how that helps your case.
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What do they have in common, they were/is stars in the making, for JJ and CS before injury. Solid starters with high ceilings.

He was one of 4 starting rookies, how did the other rookies turned out? Well, you already know the answer to that. and he was going down that road too. He had a very high ceiling, and very highly thought off by Kubs & Sherman.
 
J-Russ said:
What do they have in common, they were/is stars in the making, for JJ and CS before injury. Solid starters with high ceilings.

He was one of 4 starting rookies, how did the other rookies turned out? Well, you already know the answer to that. and he was going down that road too. He had a very high ceiling, and very highly thought off by Kubs & Sherman.
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One of four starting rookies on a team filled with sub-par talent.

What-an-accomplishment./sarcasm In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.


Getting too far off course. Those guys haven't proven to be more valuable than Sage.

A possible third rounder may or may not be more help than Sage. We know we have a guy that can win us games at the QB position. That's a pretty valuable asset to trade away based on what we may or may not get in return from a third rounder. I have faith in the Texans' scouting dept. too, but unless it's headed by Jesus Christ himslelf I'm not gonna assume that everything they lay their hands on is guranteed to be a sure fire success.
 
My, my, my...

So many "We need him" posts. "Don't do anything for less than a 2nd rounder!!!!" You guys would have sold him for a 5th before this past season.

Why so many posters so cautious about this deal? Because you know Schaub is always one hit away from looking like a pile of fallen Jenga blocks. Again.

Sage looked great. Schaub looked great...on the bench, shaking the cobwebs off and wearing a cap. Forget the stats. Sage was on his feet, smiling and waving at the fans after wins. Schaub was hobbling and unable to continue. But I know, I know...spare me the hate mail...Schaub was hit "worse" and in just the right spots to be seriously hurt. And I'm a turrd for saying so. I got it.

(Man, it feels good to post on this topic again)
 
GP said:
My, my, my...

So many "We need him" posts. "Don't do anything for less than a 2nd rounder!!!!" You guys would have sold him for a 5th before this past season.

Why so many posters so cautious about this deal? Because you know Schaub is always one hit away from looking like a pile of fallen Jenga blocks. Again.

Sage looked great. Schaub looked great...on the bench, shaking the cobwebs off and wearing a cap. Forget the stats. Sage was on his feet, smiling and waving at the fans after wins. Schaub was hobbling and unable to continue. But I know, I know...spare me the hate mail...Schaub was hit "worse" and in just the right spots to be seriously hurt. And I'm a turrd for saying so. I got it.

(Man, it feels good to post on this topic again)
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There is a reason you are in the witness protection program.:aggressive:
 
Polo said:
So you knew the Gianst were legit Super Bowl contenders all along ? Because of the late rd. talent they had drafted?

I'm pretty sure you just knew the Pats would fall short because of stockpiling on WR's via free agency instead of through the draft.

riiiight.

I'm glad you simplified the game of football down to such an exact science. Draft late, trade high. Someone get on the phone with Texan management and coaching staff pronto!!!

I don't get these set rules when it comes to football. I think every situation needs to be evaluated by it self.
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Your are totally missing the point.

When you look at the Giants roster that played in the Super Bowl, you will see that their later round draft picks over the past several year made serious impacts in that game. The Giants GM looks like a genius now.

Keeping Sage or trading Sage isn't going to make the Texans a playoff team. Hopefully we can agree on that.

How the Texans draft in the later rounds make the team. It's the same for every team in the NFL.

If the biggest roster decision for the Texans is keeping or trading Sage, that means the roster has some serious holes.
 
For a 2nd round pick I make this deal. It's admittedly a leap of faith but then sometimes you need to do that in order to climb the ladder in this league. Sage also would very much like to be an NFL starter and so I'm sure he's interested in a deal like this.

It's one of those deals where you're going to either be a genius or a scapegoat when it's over. The Texans have hitched their cart to Schaub and I can understand if they decide to move Sage while he's got value.
 
GP said:
My, my, my...

So many "We need him" posts. "Don't do anything for less than a 2nd rounder!!!!" You guys would have sold him for a 5th before this past season.

Why so many posters so cautious about this deal? Because you know Schaub is always one hit away from looking like a pile of fallen Jenga blocks. Again.

Sage looked great. Schaub looked great...on the bench, shaking the cobwebs off and wearing a cap. Forget the stats. Sage was on his feet, smiling and waving at the fans after wins. Schaub was hobbling and unable to continue. But I know, I know...spare me the hate mail...Schaub was hit "worse" and in just the right spots to be seriously hurt. And I'm a turrd for saying so. I got it.

(Man, it feels good to post on this topic again)
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I just have a hard time saying either one of them played great. Sage played ok. Schaub played ok. Sage did it with Andre and against bad teams. Schaub did it without Andre (well that's not true.. Schaub convinced us we had answered the 2nd/3rd WR questions by making Davis look like a star). Sage also had an entire year in this offense. Schaub didn't. Depth in this league is a luxury, no doubt. But I for one would rather have the Luxury of having a better OL or DB or OL or RB STARTING than the luxury of having a top 5 backup. Maybe if our OL was a little better we wouldn't have seen so much of Sage.

Mike
 
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