Dan Reeves: Take Vince Young

[Honoring Earl 34]

One of the best owners in football was Eddie Debartolo jr . He was a players owner ... he would redo their contracts before they were due if the player had earned it .

On the other hand if you did not perform or were aging he did'nt care who you were ... it was time for you to go . Montana , Lott , Rice they finished with other teams because they had gyys waiting in the wings .

 

[aj.]

I do not believe this story is new. I heard that Reeves would have picked Vince Young at the time that Houston announced that the two final candidates were Williams and Bush. (Heard it through my sports talk addiction so I don't have a link).

Wait, here's a semi link: link

.

Not sure why you're quoting me but we all read the same stuff when it hits the wire and the airwaves. If you're picking on my use of the word "news," we hadn't heard such a direct admission that Reeves made that recommendation to McNair - as opposed to Reeves making a general statement that he would be a great player for years to come or something to that effect.

...and Kubiak was blown away by Bush during his workouts.... (no link but I recall the article). Good things are said about good players. Except that CC never said anything good about Vince that I can recall.

Kubiak also made it pretty clear during his "intro to Houston" press conference in early Feb. that Carr was going to be the guy. (no link - but I was there and heard it along with everyone else).

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

So AJ ... if Kubiak liked Bush , Reeves liked VY , CC liked Mario , and McNair liked Carr how did we get Mario ... signability .

 

[Hookem Horns]

The scary thing about this is that it brings into doubt the ability of this organization to make tough decisions. If they can't make a decision to pickup a young QB in one of the better QB drafts last year then how can we possibly trust them to make the right decision about Carr in the offseason. This front office looked at all the talented QBs in last years draft, and said "No Thanks" we like what we see in Carr. Can we really expect them to look at the available FA QBs in the offseason or the QBs in the draft with a realistic eye for talent? Or are they simply going to stand pat with Carr claiming yet again that he's full of potential that is still untapped 5 years into his career. It's a very frustrating situation to be in as a fan of this organization.

To do an about face on Carr during this offseason would make them look even worse than they do now (despite the fact we all know that is what they should do). They passed up the best QB class in a long time and this year it is pretty weak. After reading about McNair's love affair with Carr I highly doubt they will look at other QB's. Good post.

 

[Tulip]

Even the biggest mancrushers believed that VY was going to be a bit of a project, and would have to sit.

I'm going to have to take issue with this too. I never believed that Vince Young was going to be some sort of long-term project. I saw a lot of people parrot ESPN, but I didn't see a lot of substance behind those assertions. Vince Young was never Michael Vick. He threw for a lot of yards at Texas. He made reads, he made good decisions - some of which looked instinctive. He improved in passing by leaps and bounds every season.

I believed that Vince Young would be a starter by mid-season of his first season - and he was. And don't forget - he was chosen third in the draft. He didn't drop far. And for a team that desperately needed a leader in a QB - it should have been a no-brainer.

 

[TNTitan]

All I know it is that today is December 16th 2006, and the QB we selected in 2002, David Carr looks just like he did last year and the year before and the year before that.....well, except for the fact that he is on pace to have a better completion % and less TD's. Does more completed 5 yard passes make the fans feel better? Yeah, the Carr only fans as they seem to love it....all the Texan fans are in pain otherwise.

did'nt you all pass on Peppers for Carr in that draft? wow

 

[aj.]

So AJ ... if Kubiak liked Bush , Reeves liked VY , CC liked Mario , and McNair liked Carr how did we get Mario ... signability .

I said Kubiak liked Bush (as almost everyone in their right mind would). I didn't say Kubiak 'preferred' Bush...just like I said that we didn't have hard evidence that Reeves 'preferred' VY before this latest thing broke. That was the point. To answer your question - (you actually answered it yourself), it's a good chance we got Mario because McNair liked Carr (hence no VY10) and he was worried about Bush's signability and the other issues that came to light at that time (hence no RB25).

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

did'nt you all pass on Peppers for Carr in that draft? wow

I hate you ... I hate you !

 

[Mr. White]

To do an about face on Carr during this offseason would make them look even worse than they do now (despite the fact we all know that is what they should do). They passed up the best QB class in a long time and this year it is pretty weak. After reading about McNair's love affair with Carr I highly doubt they will look at other QB's. Good post.

About your new av and sig:

That was the main reason why I wanted Houston to draft VY. Because I live in Austin and the affiliate was pulling our games. If VY was in Steel Blue, it wouldn't matter how bad the record was, the Texans would be on TV all over Texas.

I talked about McNair stealing some of the Cowboys thunder in Texas and got flamed for it. I was talking about a good business decision AND a good football decision.

Now we're the number 3 team in Texas. Blackouts are looking inevitable in Houston next year as well. And the guy you passed over in the draft is owning your team in your own town.

Way to go, Bob.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

McNair is now officially a horrible owner and our team is a national joke. Any fan who buys this load of garbage is either ignorant to reality or a retard. Why bring in a guy for advice if you aint even going to use his advice. McNair did the exact opposite of what Reeves suggested....

oh well as far as I am concerned, this franchise can take their UT jealousy/hatred, their emasculated Aggie head coach, and their inept golden boy QB and shove it all up their collective backside...its obvious McNair is running this franchise and he is running it into the ground

 

[Texans_Chick]

I don't think that is the case and I think you have latched on to the weak sauce that makes up popular thought. I've talked to plenty of people who were laughing at the "experts in the media" and the sheeple saying it would take years for VY to play....I think all that was ridiculous myself. Before the draft I even posted numerous times that he would play soon into his first year...but I just got bashed by the sheeple around here.

Oh, what I should have said is not just the generic mancrushers, but rather the media perception: John McClain, Richard Justice, Rich Lord, etc. They were his biggest media supporters, but the case they made for VY in the media was a pretty weak one. (Blah blah, did you see him on TV, blah blah, he is a project).

I actually sent pro-VY stuff to McClain after VY declared because I thought the media case that they were making was not strong enough. It was frustrating to me that they would just acknowledge the Vick comparison without say GOOD LORD, Vick was taken 1st in the draft in 2001, and VY as a QB blows Vick away, and isn't the same sort of quarterback as Vick.

That is the point that needed to be made and wasn't being made.


And AJ, I was just quoting your stuff, not to dispute what you were saying but rather to amplify it. About the whole CC-Reeves-McNair dynamic.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

I said Kubiak liked Bush (as almost everyone in their right mind would). I didn't say Kubiak 'preferred' Bush...just like I said that we didn't have hard evidence that Reeves 'preferred' VY before this latest thing broke. That was the point. To answer your question - (you actually answered it yourself), it's a good chance we got Mario because McNair liked Carr (hence no VY10) and he was worried about Bush's signability and the other issues that came to light at that time (hence no RB25).

This is just to nicey nicey . Lets find a swell OC and a swell DC ... winning is not important .

What this team needs is a team Mom .... anybody .

 

[aj.]

Not sure I follow, but ok.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

About your new av and sig:

That was the main reason why I wanted Houston to draft VY. Because I live in Austin and the affiliate was pulling our games. If VY was in Steel Blue, it wouldn't matter how bad the record was, the Texans would be on TV all over Texas.

I talked about McNair stealing some of the Cowboys thunder in Texas and got flamed for it. I was talking about a good business decision AND a good football decision.

Now we're the number 3 team in Texas. Blackouts are looking inevitable in Houston next year as well. And the guy you passed over in the draft is owning your team in your own town.

Way to go, Bob.

/signed

Expect that mass of yellow around Austin to grow out and expand over time. I dont think we will have blackouts yet but we arent far away from that. The franchise is a freaking joke.

 

[TNTitan]

did'nt you all pass on Peppers for Carr in that draft? wow

that one choice 5 years ago trickled down to this year why no VY

 

[Texans_Chick]

McNair is now officially a horrible owner and our team is a national joke. Any fan who buys this load of garbage is either ignorant to reality or a retard. Why bring in a guy for advice if you aint even going to use his advice. McNair did the exact opposite of what Reeves suggested....

oh well as far as I am concerned, this franchise can take their UT jealousy/hatred, their emasculated Aggie head coach, and their inept golden boy QB and shove it all up their collective backside...its obvious McNair is running this franchise and he is running it into the ground

You have no idea what was said and when. Of course, that doesn't stop you from saying things as fact.

Bob McNair's son went to UT. Kubiak is friends with the Texas OC.

It is obvious that you are frustrated. Everyone is frustrated, probably mostly McNair. His deal is that he is trying to do things "the right way" but in the NFL there are a infinite number of right ways, and you need lucky breaks in the mix too.

 

[Texans_Chick]

I said Kubiak liked Bush (as almost everyone in their right mind would). I didn't say Kubiak 'preferred' Bush...just like I said that we didn't have hard evidence that Reeves 'preferred' VY before this latest thing broke. That was the point. To answer your question - (you actually answered it yourself), it's a good chance we got Mario because McNair liked Carr (hence no VY10) and he was worried about Bush's signability and the other issues that came to light at that time (hence no RB25).

The first I heard that Reeves would have picked Vince Young was right at the time that the Texans announced it was between Bush and Williams.

At the time I thought he was madly trying to crawdaddy away from this decision.

I also believe I remember him being 100% behind resigning Carr for 3 years, so I don't know what's up with that and Reeves hasn't discussed his time when he was consulting and what the extent of that consultancy was.

 

[Mr. White]

/signed

Expect that mass of yellow around Austin to grow out and expand over time. I dont think we will have blackouts yet but we arent far away from that. The franchise is a freaking joke.

I've heard that the blackout rule would go into effect after 5 years. I haven't done the research myself, so it's possible that I heard wrong.

Houstonians: Care to take a guess whose games you'll be watching on your CBS affiliate when the Texans do get blacked out?

People that have been calling for African-Americans to own NFL teams can rest easy. Houston is now the first franchise to be owned by an African-American.

 

[Hookem Horns]

About your new av and sig:

That was the main reason why I wanted Houston to draft VY. Because I live in Austin and the affiliate was pulling our games. If VY was in Steel Blue, it wouldn't matter how bad the record was, the Texans would be on TV all over Texas.

I talked about McNair stealing some of the Cowboys thunder in Texas and got flamed for it. I was talking about a good business decision AND a good football decision.

Now we're the number 3 team in Texas. Blackouts are looking inevitable in Houston next year as well. And the guy you passed over in the draft is owning your team in your own town.

Way to go, Bob.

Many of us saw this coming before the draft (after the Texans said Carr was their man for another 3 years). The only surprise is how fast it happened, even I am surprised that VY is doing so good so soon. Honestly, can you blame KEYE for becoming the home of the Titans? TV is a business and the Titans are killing the Texans in TV ratings. Unfortunately Texans fans have no argument for them to show the Texans. The "home team" argument doesn't seem to cut it.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Not sure I follow, but ok.

Bob did'nt want to get rid of Capers ... he liked him . It appears to be the same with Carr . I'm sorry but you can't let your heart overule your head .

I was sold on Bush ... he was the top player according to most experts . If we did not get Bush because he some trouble ... then we're worried about a squeaky clean image . We were sold on Bush and Carr , that Carr could take us to the Super Bowl .

If it's true what Reeves said then there was evidence of chinks in the armor and it was'nt a unanimous choice ... what else have they covered up . They have put a lot of lipstick on the pig but its still a pig .

 

[Hookem Horns]

I've heard that the blackout rule would go into effect after 5 years. I haven't done the research myself, so it's possible that I heard wrong.

Care to take a guess whose games you'll be watching on your CBS affiliate when the Texans do get blacked out?

Austin is too far away to be effected by blackouts of Houston teams. Though when the Texans are blacked out in the Houston area I am pretty sure I know which other team will be shown. Bud must be in heaven about now.

People that have been calling for African-Americans to own NFL teams can rest easy. Houston is now the first franchise to be owned by an African-American.

LOL. The sad thing is that you can also say Bud now owns the Texans.

 

[opus74]

I comes down to making a hard decision or taking the easy way out. Apparently, McNair felt that he had to go with Carr for PR or team chemistry or whatever reason. That was the easy way out - nobody gets their feelings hurt (in the short term) and the Texans try to improve in incremental steps.

The Titans made the hard choice. It was a painful experience to have to part with someone who meant as much to the team and the city as Steve did. But that's what we had to do to bring in Vince. Was it worth it? The jury is still out but it looks good right now,

I know you are all Bud-haters, but this is the kind of thing a successful owner has to do sometimes. Kinda like the tomcat's operation - it hurts like hell but it's for your own good.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

You have no idea what was said and when. Of course, that doesn't stop you from saying things as fact.

Bob McNair's son went to UT. Kubiak is friends with the Texas OC.

It is obvious that you are frustrated. Everyone is frustrated, probably mostly McNair. His deal is that he is trying to do things "the right way" but in the NFL there are a infinite number of right ways, and you need lucky breaks in the mix too.

please refrain from sugarcoating things TC. McNair is like Midas except that everything he touches turns into garbage. This franchise is freefalling both in financial value as well as in public sentinment. His ignorance to reality, his commitment to doing things 'the right way' when in fact it is 'the wrong way'., and his inability to admit defeat/failure/disappointment/disaster show him to be the horrible NFL owner he is. The only quality move McNair has done since he got here was buying the team in the first place. Every move since them stinks of bad football, amateur hour PR spin job, and touchy feely myopia.

TC, we gotta stop spinning for McNair. I like you, I dont think you are a homer or apologist. I just feel your in a bit of denial as a fan. McNair is a bad owner. Pure and simple. He has let personal feelings, personal relationships, and public relations get in the way of making important football decisions. If Carr is brought back next year we only have McNair and the legions of homers to thank. Someone needs to step up and say something. Whether it be a player, front office, or community leader. someone needs to say enough is enough.

The bottom line is that until they get rid of Carr they will continue to be the national joke that they are. TC, can we at least agree that the Texans are a national joke presently?

 

[Second Honeymoon]

You have no idea what was said and when. Of course, that doesn't stop you from saying things as fact.

Bob McNair's son went to UT. Kubiak is friends with the Texas OC.

It is obvious that you are frustrated. Everyone is frustrated, probably mostly McNair. His deal is that he is trying to do things "the right way" but in the NFL there are a infinite number of right ways, and you need lucky breaks in the mix too.

As a Longhorn fan, that isnt exactly something to be proud of. VY won and excelled in spite of Greg Davis. Greg Davis is a joke.

 

[The Dream]

People that have been calling for African-Americans to own NFL teams can rest easy. Houston is now the first franchise to be owned by an African-American.

lol

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

One thing about an owner ... he can change tomorrow . I think Bob made business choices based on bad information . He also might have let his friendships sway him a little .

 

[Second Honeymoon]

I've heard that the blackout rule would go into effect after 5 years. I haven't done the research myself, so it's possible that I heard wrong.

Houstonians: Care to take a guess whose games you'll be watching on your CBS affiliate when the Texans do get blacked out?

People that have been calling for African-Americans to own NFL teams can rest easy. Houston is now the first franchise to be owned by an African-American.

omg, that is hilarious. allow me to co-opt that joke tomorrow watching the games at the local Buffalo Wild Wings. my fantasy football team is in the playoffs tomorrow so wish me luck. my girlfriend's Christmas is predicated on a win tomorrow

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

lol

Thats to funny .

Vince should sell sack Carr shirts at home ... Bosworth did that . He made kill the Boz t shirts and sold them to Denver fans .

 

[QB75]

I've heard that the blackout rule would go into effect after 5 years. I haven't done the research myself, so it's possible that I heard wrong.

Houstonians: Care to take a guess whose games you'll be watching on your CBS affiliate when the Texans do get blacked out?

People that have been calling for African-Americans to own NFL teams can rest easy. Houston is now the first franchise to be owned by an African-American.

Wishful thinking. Hardly the case though.

 

[Texans_Chick]

As a Longhorn fan, that isnt exactly something to be proud of. VY won and excelled in spite of Greg Davis. Greg Davis is a joke.

I know what Longhorn fans think of Davis.

I only said it to point out that Kubiak isn't anti-VY and actually got lots of VY information from Davis.

Yeah, the Texans are seen as a national joke, but I do not think that Bob McNair is a bad owner for making a decision as it relates to VY that most of the owners would have made.

I truly believe that VY would have dropped farther in the draft than he did if Bud Adams doesn't overrule his coach and OC.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

I know what Longhorn fans think of Davis.

I only said it to point out that Kubiak isn't anti-VY and actually got lots of VY information from Davis.

Yeah, the Texans are seen as a national joke, but I do not think that Bob McNair is a bad owner for making a decision as it relates to VY that most of the owners would have made.

I truly believe that VY would have dropped farther in the draft than he did if Bud Adams doesn't overrule his coach and OC.

Ok, if Kubiak wasnt biased against Mr. VY because of college allegiances, why did he support resigning Carr and passing on VY? He is either an Aggie homer or a horrible evaluator of talent both in regards to DC and VY.

VY would have been snatched up by the Raiders without doubt had Bud, in his infinite wisdom (excuse me while I puke), passed on VY. Bottom line is that VY should have been taken #1 by us his hometown team. TC, I am just bitter. I drank the koolaid to start the season even after I had been posting Anti-Carr material since Day One. I fell in line with everyone else but I knew it was headed for disaster...and to be honest, it has gone FAR WORSE than even I expected.

We gotta do something as fans to show McNair that this type of ownership and childlike meddling will not be tolerated and supported. If last Sunday's scenario didn't wake McNair up to reality, I can't imagine anything else that will.

 

[Double Barrel]

To further complicate this I hear that we extended Carr to the max 3 year contract instead of the 2 because we were afraid it would hurt his feelings and send the wrong message that we weren't sold on Carr...

That is a sad state of affairs...and seems to be the case when we drop the "tradition" of player intros at a home game because of the same reason.

If this is the way we decide to keep players - likeability and marketability - and drop players - too vocal and/or old - then we will be bottom dwellers for many years to come. Bad teams are the direct result of bad decisions.

I've always defended McNair based upon the public perception that has been put forth: a rich businessman who is a big fan of football and hires 'experts' to run his team. But revelations this week, including straight from the horse's mouth, leads me to believe otherwise. I can no longer blindly defend him if he is part of the decision making process, simply because he could be one of the potential problems to begin with.

So AJ ... if Kubiak liked Bush , Reeves liked VY , CC liked Mario , and McNair liked Carr how did we get Mario ... signability .

yep...deals were offered to both Mario and RB...only Mario accepted, and the rest is history. So much for the philosophy of BPA.

I know you are all Bud-haters, but this is the kind of thing a successful owner has to do sometimes. Kinda like the tomcat's operation - it hurts like hell but it's for your own good.

Well, Bud didn't come out of the womb making smart football decisions. Study the early years of the Oilers and he made some mistakes, as well.

 

[Dr. Toro]

I do not believe this story is new. I heard that Reeves would have picked Vince Young at the time that Houston announced that the two final candidates were Williams and Bush. (Heard it through my sports talk addiction so I don't have a link).

Wait, here's a semi link: link



I believe, at the time he said it, he was no longer acting as consultant. That he said he thought Carr could be a player who could be successful in the league, but he would have picked Vince Young.

Personally, I think you could have picked VY even if you thought DC would have a future in the league. I am pretty sure that Reeves said that DC could have a future in the league--that doesn't preclude someone from deciding to take VY though--it just means that the decision on that was a FEBRUARY decision and not an April draft decision.

The timing of everything was terrible. VY signals he stays in school until he doesn't and hires a ridiculous choice as his agent. He's immediately get slammed for poor performance in a made for TV event, etc. Even VY's best supporters suggest that he is going to be a project in the NFL. Kubiak hired in January. Basically a week and a half then Carr's option has to be addressed.

I am guessing most of the coaching candidates in talking about Carr figure that the math of this means:

Would you rather have Carr + Bush or Vince Young - Carr - Bush?

McNair wants to do things from a purely football perspective. I am guessing nobody was selling VY as a pick from a football perspective even though that easily can be done, stats and results wise. (And Casserly evidently still doesn't think VY is worth much of anything given his list of top QBs). It is not quite as easy to prove in February that he is worth chucking Carr and Bush, but it could have been done.

Personally, I do think that fan support is part of home field advantage and IS part of a football decision, but it is evident that this wasn't put in the pros and cons at all.

TC, VY's representation being detrimental was a media invention. I'm not sure they're to blame for the Wonderlic fiasco... VY isn't exactly the bookish type and was said to be "goofing off" during the test, which is what he does in the huddle during the 4th quarter (certainly his agents aren't to blame for that). VY still ended up being the first QB taken and signed a monster deal... the uproar about his representation was likely the result of the NoFunLeague network of analysts, writers, and agents that freak out at the first sign of nonconformity. No NFL scouts took that made for TV event seriously. VY had plenty of people like Brandt and Reeves and selling him results wise, and the tape told the story there too. Everybody did their best to sell him on every angle possible to the Texans... they just passed.

Everyone wants to assign blame, point to some nefarious plot... I don't really care for that. Houston passed on VY for whatever reason, they went with the defense wins championships tack. They were loyal to Carr, thought he could turn it around. Drafting Mario wasn't the biggest mistake ever... taking Vince seemed to be the intuitive thing, but I don't blame McNair or anybody for that. I'll blame the fact that the NFL often overthinks itself and tries to turn football into science and can make seemingly monumental errors like this. The kid had the measurables, intangibles, a built in fanbase, and accomplished more than anyone could have expected... that wasn't good enough. Stuff like this happens all the time... and not just in the NFL (although here more often than not). Pacers passed on Bird. Blazers passed on Jordan. Astros let Nolan go. Red Sox traded Babe Ruth and Jeff Bagwell. This city has lost Vince Young and Nolan Ryan, but because of a more fortunate transaction landed Jeff Bagwell. Houston had Sampson and still took Olajuwon the UH kid... but they passed on Jordan. This stuff is so complicated, I refuse to point fingers at individuals.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

I see Kubiak trying to get a job . An analogy would be ... you are a Little League coach ... you walk in for a job interview and see little Johnny's picture on the desk of the guy thats going to hire you .

The new boss ask Mr Honeymoon do you think Johnny can pitch ? What are you going to say no .

I'm not so much concerned with VY as I am the process in which we do things . I think with the talent that we have if you add couple of FAs and a have good draft and it will get exciting . Except for one very important position and that if not addressed will hold us back .

 

[jdog]

I heard one possible fact in this whole thread. Dan Reeves said he suggested Vince Young. We have no other information.

I am guessing that for $300,000.00 you get more analysis than "draft Young". He probably had alternatives and costs and benefits associated with each choice, and the organization made the best decision they could make.

Vince Young and all of his supporters should be glad we did not draft him. We would still be having problems as a team, and Houston would have had to roll over on their favorite son within one year of drafting him.

 

[Dr. Toro]

I heard one possible fact in this whole thread. Dan Reeves said he suggested Vince Young. We have no other information.

I am guessing that for $300,000.00 you get more analysis than "draft Young". He probably had alternatives and costs and benefits associated with each choice, and the organization made the best decision they could make.

Vince Young and all of his supporters should be glad we did not draft him. We would still be having problems as a team, and Houston would have had to roll over on their favorite son within one year of drafting him.

You're correct about Reeves and how this thing went down... but you're wrong to say our problems would have crushed VY. No one looked worse than Tennessee, sitting at 0-5 with VY playing horrible vs. Dallas. He certainly turned that thing around, travis Henry turned into a beast, the defense started playing with fire, and the line play got better despite suffering injuries. I think Vy could have done the same thing here.

In the grand scheme, there's no telling if VY would have been as motivated to bring a championship to H-town as he would be to prove all the haters wrong and correct a perceived slight by the local ballclub. Getting passed over by h-town certainly seems to be adding fuel to his fire, and he'll never forget it, as he'll face us twice annually.

 

[Hookem Horns]

Vince Young and all of his supporters should be glad we did not draft him. We would still be having problems as a team, and Houston would have had to roll over on their favorite son within one year of drafting him.

I don't buy that. The Titans had a TON of problems and looked worse than the Texans did until Vince became a leader and they all started playing over their heads. What makes you think he couldn't have done that in Houston? It's been said a thousand times, all the guy does is win.

 

[jdog]

You're correct about Reeves and how this thing went down... but you're wrong to say our problems would have crushed VY. No one looked worse than Tennessee, sitting at 0-5 with VY playing horrible vs. Dallas. He certainly turned that thing around, travis Henry turned into a beast, the defense started playing with fire, and the line play got better despite suffering injuries. I think Vy could have done the same thing here.

In the grand scheme, there's no telling if VY would have been as motivated to bring a championship to H-town as he would be to prove all the haters wrong and correct a perceived slight by the local ballclub. Getting passed over by h-town certainly seems to be adding fuel to his fire, and he'll never forget it, as he'll face us twice annually.

You are right. The Titans sucked. I know that Vince Young is good. He would have helped this team. I am sure that the organization would have loved to bring him on board, but we have so many needs. I am sure quarterback is low on the list outiside of the fans imaginations.

Plus, can you imagine the quarterback controversy if we had drafted Young? People still want Young playing over Carr, and Vince Young is not even on the team.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

I see Kubiak trying to get a job . An analogy would be ... you are a Little League coach ... you walk in for a job interview and see little Johnny's picture on the desk of the guy thats going to hire you .

The new boss ask Mr Honeymoon do you think Johnny can pitch ? What are you going to say no .

I'm not so much concerned with VY as I am the process in which we do things . I think with the talent that we have if you add couple of FAs and a have good draft and it will get exciting . Except for one very important position and that if not addressed will hold us back .

GREAT ANALOGY

 

[Second Honeymoon]

I heard one possible fact in this whole thread. Dan Reeves said he suggested Vince Young. We have no other information.

I am guessing that for $300,000.00 you get more analysis than "draft Young". He probably had alternatives and costs and benefits associated with each choice, and the organization made the best decision they could make.

Vince Young and all of his supporters should be glad we did not draft him. We would still be having problems as a team, and Houston would have had to roll over on their favorite son within one year of drafting him.

so your saying that VY wouldnt get the 5 years (and counting) of excuses like Lil Davey has? Oh yeah, I forgot. VY is black.

 

[Texian]

Let's take a look at the facts re: Dan Reeves. Dan had a QB, Chris Chandler, that had taken them to the 98' Super Bowl and Chris went to the Pro Bowl. In the 2001 draft with Chandler still the QB, Reeves traded up to the #1 pick to take Mike Vick. Vick became the starting QB in 02'. This trade is what brought Tomlinson and Brees to San Diego. So it is not unconcievable that Reeves would recommend drafting Young.

I also remember reading shortly after Kubiak's hire, McNair asked Gary if they could win with Carr? Could he be the QB to get them to Super Bowl. Gary said, Carr was capable he just needed to be coached up, or words to that effect...So put me down in Kubiak's corner for keeping Carr.

It also known that Fisher and Chow wanted Lienart not VY but it was Bud who put the hammer down on the VY decision.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Well Leinart is outplaying a certain five year vet . He's with the Cardinals .

 

[Texans_Chick]

TC, VY's representation being detrimental was a media invention. I'm not sure they're to blame for the Wonderlic fiasco... VY isn't exactly the bookish type and was said to be "goofing off" during the test, which is what he does in the huddle during the 4th quarter (certainly his agents aren't to blame for that). VY still ended up being the first QB taken and signed a monster deal... the uproar about his representation was likely the result of the NoFunLeague network of analysts, writers, and agents that freak out at the first sign of nonconformity. No NFL scouts took that made for TV event seriously. VY had plenty of people like Brandt and Reeves and selling him results wise, and the tape told the story there too. Everybody did their best to sell him on every angle possible to the Texans... they just passed.

Everyone wants to assign blame, point to some nefarious plot... I don't really care for that. Houston passed on VY for whatever reason, they went with the defense wins championships tack. They were loyal to Carr, thought he could turn it around. Drafting Mario wasn't the biggest mistake ever... taking Vince seemed to be the intuitive thing, but I don't blame McNair or anybody for that. I'll blame the fact that the NFL often overthinks itself and tries to turn football into science and can make seemingly monumental errors like this. The kid had the measurables, intangibles, a built in fanbase, and accomplished more than anyone could have expected... that wasn't good enough. Stuff like this happens all the time... and not just in the NFL (although here more often than not). Pacers passed on Bird. Blazers passed on Jordan. Astros let Nolan go. Red Sox traded Babe Ruth and Jeff Bagwell. This city has lost Vince Young and Nolan Ryan, but because of a more fortunate transaction landed Jeff Bagwell. Houston had Sampson and still took Olajuwon the UH kid... but they passed on Jordan. This stuff is so complicated, I refuse to point fingers at individuals.

Disagree. I predicted it wouldn't help him.

VY goes to Titans despite what the headcoach wanted and OC. Fact.

 

[The Dream]

Houston had Sampson and still took Olajuwon the UH kid... but they passed on Jordan. This stuff is so complicated, I refuse to point fingers at individuals.

not trying to change topics, but coming out of college there weren't many people who thought Jordan could've been what he was....Vince was more of a "sure thing" as far as greatness was concerned.

 

[Hookem Horns]

I am sure that the organization would have loved to bring him on board, but we have so many needs. I am sure quarterback is low on the list outiside of the fans imaginations.

Plus, can you imagine the quarterback controversy if we had drafted Young? People still want Young playing over Carr, and Vince Young is not even on the team.

The fact that QB is low on this list is the reason this team will continue to be a loser for a long time. If Young were on this team there would be no controversy. Young would be starting right now and Carr would be either on the cut list or trading block, and I would be living in Austin, TEXAS not Austin, Tennessee.

 

[old football fan]

I wouldn't believe anything John (I think I'm the football God)McClain siad or wrote.

 

[Dr. Toro]

Disagree. I predicted it wouldn't help him.

VY goes to Titans despite what the headcoach wanted and OC. Fact.

So you use the fact that a HC in his walk year who played at USC and Matt Leinart's offensive coordinator preffered the more "pro-ready" Leinart as evidence that VY's representation stunk? Obviously they sold VY to the GM and owner, right... isn't that what matters? Yet Vince ending up in Tennessee is confirmation his agent didn't help him? I don't see it. Obviously, Tom Condon is no guarantee to get drafted where you want to or keep the rumors at bay, just ask Leinart. And what of Bush? I had my doubts in Major Adams just like you, TC...

I guess we'll never know what went wrong and who to blame, I liked your scifi thingy for the Chron, but I think this thing plays out more like the Iliad... Rich Lord playing the role of Cassandra, VY our potential Hector playing the role of Achilles, Bud as Agamemnon, Norm Chow as Odysseus, we all know who would play Paris... I could go on all day.

 

[aj.]

The Titans made the hard choice. .

No they didn't. Bud tossed McNair to the curb because of the humongous cap hit, in much the same way that he traded away Moon a decade earlier. It was easy for him to do and only hard for the fans, and Steve, to accept.

As far as Vince, that was also a no-brainer for Bud. And that's not hindsight speaking either. I know how your owner thinks and there was one player that he was foaming at the mouth to get - in part to win back Texas fans - and that was you know who. I'm sure that having him fall into his lap at #3 excited Bud like nothing else.

 

[Wolf]

very true aj,

 

[axman40]

The fact that QB is low on this list is the reason this team will continue to be a loser for a long time. If Young were on this team there would be no controversy. Young would be starting right now and Carr would be either on the cut list or trading block, and I would be living in Austin, TEXAS not Austin, Tennessee.

Hey Hookkem care to join me for some moon pies and shine?