Vinny
shiny happy fan
well, it's not like any of us have an answer to it....unless Jerek is Dan Reeves and SES is John McClain. I'm sure more will have to come out.
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Dan Reeves: Take Vince Young
- Thread starter Vinny
- Start date
hollywood_texan
All Pro
Yeah, I know...
I was really poking fun at myself because I was going back through the thread and I was asking the same thing over and over. I knew I was, but it struck me as funny when I looked at from the perspective of another poster.
A week or so ago, aj. kind of laid into me that I repeated myself over and over regarding another topic.
Besides, I thought Jerek was Kubiak and SES was McNair. Shows you what I know...
ThaShark316
#28
Speaking of McClain...He said something to effect...that Winston should be RG, Weary C and Pitts LG...was I just hearing things or what?
Vinny
shiny happy fan
It's a fascinating story though. Part of being an Oiler fan was watching Bud's front office lurch along, blowing smoke, hitting curbs, and leaking Oil. We were all led to believe that Dan Reeves did just the opposite of what we heard today. This is like watching a soap opera unfold. No way this is the last we hear of this story. McClain threw it out there like a teaser.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
I hope your are right because I can't wait to hear more.
Malloy
Hall of Fame
hollywood_texan
All Pro
Or that coach was Kubiak?
If that is the case, then it all adds up
I don't think Kubiak said that.
I remember reading an article, and I need to find it, where Kubiak said that after watching Vince at the Texas Longhorn Pro Day, he thought he was all that and more. I need to find that article.
Also, I remember reading somewhere, and it's just a rumor, behind closed doors, Kubiak was a VY guy.
So, if it wasn't Kubiak that said that about and wanted VY, how frustrated could he be right now?
All I said was "we see your point. You made it at least 5 or 6 times in this thread alone" after you repeated yourself about 5 or 6 times in one thread.
This news from Reeves tells me that McNair heard Reeves and Casserly's arguments on QB but in the end, McNair listened to Casserly - who obviously fought hard for Carr before his exit. If Kubiak turns Carr into a good QB, it makes Charley look good. If Carr is thrown to the curb and the team goes another direction last April, it makes Casserly look bad (in terms of CC's hire-ability in the future). The key to this whole theory is that CC still had enough of McNair's ear to make a difference, even though McNair cut Charley off at the knees by bringing in Reeves.
Part of it may also be that CC is stuck in 1983 and might not be capable of the thought that Vince might be special. He's still denying it as evidenced in his ridiculous "Top 10 QB with under 40 starts" list that came out last week.
Malloy
Hall of Fame
Don't get me wrong, I'm not neccesarily saying that this is my point of view, I'm mearly speculating, as are most people in this thread. Interesting though, and really tough to see clearly.
Like a jab setting you up for an uppercut.
If this is true....man, that's just wrong for so many reasons. It would reveal that McNair is much, much more than "just a fan" and actively decides and pursues his own agenda (which does not appear to be based upon football knowledge right now).
We've always been led to believe that McNair was a 'hands off' owner that just hired football guys to run his operation. But if Carr's status was sealed prior to hiring Kubiak, and in spite of the new HC's and advisor's suggestions, then we'll be a bottom dweller for longer than we'd wish to admit.
Obviously, this is all pure speculation, but fuel to the fire when it comes from the horse's mouth (i.e. Reeves).
hollywood_texan
All Pro
aj. your cool with me. I was just trying put a little humor into the whole thing.
Why would McNair rely so heavily on CC and his advice knowing he was leaving? CC was leaving because of poor performance and you still rely on him?
You may be right, but it just sounds crazy. Then again, people do crazy things.
utahmark
markbeth
Like a jab setting you up for an uppercut.
If this is true....man, that's just wrong for so many reasons. It would reveal that McNair is much, much more than "just a fan" and actively decides and pursues his own agenda (which does not appear to be based upon football knowledge right now).
We've always been led to believe that McNair was a 'hands off' owner that just hired football guys to run his operation. But if Carr's status was sealed prior to hiring Kubiak, and in spite of the new HC's and advisor's suggestions, then we'll be a bottom dweller for longer than we'd wish to admit.
Obviously, this is all pure speculation, but fuel to the fire when it comes from the horse's mouth (i.e. Reeves).
if he was meddling around with coaches decisions we would of heard about it by now. you think capers and co. would keep that quite after being fired.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
Maybe McNair for the most part is hands off, but handcuffs people in the organization on certain big decisions that really negates any freedom they have to work with on the smaller items and to produce meaningful results.
Case in point, McNair said they have to have the #1 pick in the draft signed before the Draft. It is a good guideline to have and I understand the reasoning. But, I can see where you wouldn't want to box yourself into to a selection though. I am not banging on Mario, I like that pick over Bush.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
Yep, Capers is still on the payroll because of his contract.
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
I remember reading it too. It was a Skip Bayless article that said "Casserly's a Bush guy and Kubiak's a Young guy."
I'm not surprised to hear this. Go look up Bongo59's post history. He broke this Reeves story a week ago after the Titans beat us.
You guys thinkin' what I'm thinkin'?
If CC's opinion on DC happened to match what McNair believed, then it's not so crazy. Charley and his staff built the draft board this year, so it's not like McNair totally shut him down.
After reading this thread and the one about the McNair interview I am convinced this organization is doomed. As bad as an owner as Bud was, at least he had enough sense to draft Earl Campbell and VY. He also was smart enough to bring in Warren Moon from the CFL. (OMG, I know it's freaking bad when I am complimenting Bud Adams). This love affair between McNair and Carr is ridiculous. That would have been like Bud insisting that Bucky Richardson was going to be a superstar one day and refusing to look for another QB.
Actually Bucky was more entertaining to watch than Carr.
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
I've been hearing for years about how good of an owner this guy is.
It's getting pretty obvious what kind of owner this guy is. Helluva week.
Sunday- Carr doesn't get introduced by the organization so that they can protect his psyche.
Thursday- The AP story. McNair says Carr doesn't have enough "weapons" and takes a dig at Vince Young.
Friday- The story comes out that McNair didn't want to take the advice of his advisor. Nevermind that advice would have made him a lot more money, but was probably the better football decision.
Looks like there's something to the Communist schtick that the 610 morning guys do.
Reeves was an adviser, not a decision maker. There was more than one person "consulting" i'm sure (GK, CC, TC and others). Someone asked "why did he wait until Titans beat us to release this information. I didn't hear what was said or when it was said but Dan may have Alzheimers, maybe he thought he said that and he really didn't (j/k).
JDizzle
I'm a dude
The Rose Bowl swung alot of people in Vince's favor so it's not a stretch that Reeves was too. He was brought in about a month before Vince declared. Saying "Carr isn't the problem" isn't really saying he's special. It's, in a nice way, saying that he doesn't suck that bad. I would imagine that the time between Vince declaring and Reeves' suggesting that McNair draft him is not that small, which fuels the fire even further because Carr's option was not picked up until a few weeks after that.
I find it hard that McNair listened to both Casserly and Reeves with a fresh ear, because he brought Reeves in as an objective consultant. He would not have been there if Casserly had proved himself competent, which leads me to believe that McNair may have had his mind made up about Carr.
I find it hard that McNair listened to both Casserly and Reeves with a fresh ear, because he brought Reeves in as an objective consultant. He would not have been there if Casserly had proved himself competent, which leads me to believe that McNair may have had his mind made up about Carr.
He was also part of the interview team. He asked the x's and o's questions while CC watched.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
McClain's and VY's clearly is'nt as deep or true as McNair's and Carr's .
I've said all along that McNair had much more to do with the 1st pick than aynone else (currently with the Texans).... He had nothing to do with the rest of the draft - and look how good that turned out.
Kubes was a rookie coach in tough situation.
Not sure whta pressure was on McNair - but I have a guess
Kubes was a rookie coach in tough situation.
Not sure whta pressure was on McNair - but I have a guess
bigTEXan8
Rookie
houstonians will continue to cry until carr gets the better of young, whether or not that actually ever happens. i am really starting to hate this offense that kubiak throws out there every week. offensively, their games are no fun to watch. i just hope the texans put at least 2 more wins under their belts and go into the post season with something to build upon. bottom line is, it's hard to understand why (at least, not from my point of view) why the texans didn't take the hometown hero, and then to see him succeed is even more frustrating to the fans. something everybody is going to live with until or if vy ever comes to houston.
BornOrange
Rookie
That's what sports fans do.
Red Sox fans are still upset about the Babe Ruth trade. That was 86 years ago.
Cubs fans are still upset about the Lou Brock trade. That was 40 years ago.
Rockets fans are still upset that they didn't draft Clyde Drexler 23 years ago.
Trailblazers fans are still upset about taking Bowie over Jordan the next year.
And Texans fans are always going to remember not drafting Vince Young.
Get used to it.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
This just in ... with all this man love going on ... Reliant will now be known as The Bird Cage .
I've just gotten through reading this thread, and I don't know yet if I just want to go throw up, or just yank the rest of my hair out.
I seriously doubt if I'll be watching the game on Sunday. This is just flat out insane, and I got better things to do with my time than watching what I thought was an organization that had an idea what it would take to be successful in this league.
Instead, it's nothing but a giant clusterf--- from the word go, that will never go anywhere until the owner sells the team.
I seriously doubt if I'll be watching the game on Sunday. This is just flat out insane, and I got better things to do with my time than watching what I thought was an organization that had an idea what it would take to be successful in this league.
Instead, it's nothing but a giant clusterf--- from the word go, that will never go anywhere until the owner sells the team.
I think there is a lot of speculating going on in this thread....... and maybe quite a bit going on by McLain.
Reeves wasn't brought in to advise us on the draft. His purpose, and the only result we know of... was to advise McNair on whether we needed wholesale changes of personnel on the field, or in the office. Reeves told us we have enough talent to win football games, and the lack of talent was not the reason we haven't been to the playoffs in our then 4 year history.
Gary Kubiak came in, and though he started 5 rookies, we started the season with pretty much the same starting line up we had last year...... pretty much a confirmation that he felt the same way.
Now, we kept Reeves on during the draft..... most likely telling McNair whether the decisions being made by Casserly made football sense, that Casserly's draft board made sense.
Heck, I thought it Kubiak who blew a gasket when he found out we gave Weaver a $25 million signing bonus(that was the last ridiculous contract we handed out... after that, talent like Moulds came in relatively cheap). But it may very well have been Reeves that told McNair that was stupid.
But the decision... players or coach, was made before the RoseBowl, at that time, Reeves had no idea Vince would be eligible for the draft.... nobody did. It's feasible(sp) to believe Reeves sayed, "Carr's got enough to get you to the Superbowl"
though I do wish Vince was a Texan, I don't think he's the only QB in the league capable of winning a Superbowl.
After Vince declared himself eligible.... I wouldn't doubt Reeves let it be known that if he was running the draft... he would take Vince. But it's also very possible, that no one asked him.
Reeves wasn't brought in to advise us on the draft. His purpose, and the only result we know of... was to advise McNair on whether we needed wholesale changes of personnel on the field, or in the office. Reeves told us we have enough talent to win football games, and the lack of talent was not the reason we haven't been to the playoffs in our then 4 year history.
Gary Kubiak came in, and though he started 5 rookies, we started the season with pretty much the same starting line up we had last year...... pretty much a confirmation that he felt the same way.
Now, we kept Reeves on during the draft..... most likely telling McNair whether the decisions being made by Casserly made football sense, that Casserly's draft board made sense.
Heck, I thought it Kubiak who blew a gasket when he found out we gave Weaver a $25 million signing bonus(that was the last ridiculous contract we handed out... after that, talent like Moulds came in relatively cheap). But it may very well have been Reeves that told McNair that was stupid.
But the decision... players or coach, was made before the RoseBowl, at that time, Reeves had no idea Vince would be eligible for the draft.... nobody did. It's feasible(sp) to believe Reeves sayed, "Carr's got enough to get you to the Superbowl"
though I do wish Vince was a Texan, I don't think he's the only QB in the league capable of winning a Superbowl.
After Vince declared himself eligible.... I wouldn't doubt Reeves let it be known that if he was running the draft... he would take Vince. But it's also very possible, that no one asked him.
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
So Vinny, who was the big he Bull in the pen who said no way Jose ? You know who it was....
Either you trust the guy or you don't.
Either you trust the guy or you don't.
Tulip
Veteran
This is a depressing revelation. Drafting VY was such a no-brainer IMO, that I assume there was a LOT of politics at play during the offseason.
At least McNair admitted that the "under 30" policy of the Casserly/Capers was a mistake and that losing Glenn and Sharper was detrimental to the development of the younger players.
Baby steps. Maybe McNair will come to his senses in time. Especially about David Carr. His loyalty to that kid is getting old.
At least McNair admitted that the "under 30" policy of the Casserly/Capers was a mistake and that losing Glenn and Sharper was detrimental to the development of the younger players.
Baby steps. Maybe McNair will come to his senses in time. Especially about David Carr. His loyalty to that kid is getting old.
BattleRedToro
Thread Killer
I find the timing of this information to be very odd, like someone wasn't man enough to make this statement before last Sunday's game.
BattleRedToro
Thread Killer
And so is the constant whining on this message board about the 2006 Draft.
kbourda
Veteran
I'll be the first to tell anyone who cares to listen that I am a "All VY supporter, All the time!". Let's put everything in to perspective. Doc Brown and Marty McFly won't be driving the Delorean through those doors at Reliant stadium and making what was wrong right. Hindsight is 20/20. Anyone can say well I shoulda, coulda, woulda done this or that after the fact. This just adds more to my theory about the make up of NFL player haves and have nots. My theory is this, you can participate in all the drills, tests, IQ tests you may percieve to be the measure of what it takes to become a top notch NFL player because the "experts" and the "people that get paid to do what they do" said so. For the record, "experts" and "people that paid to do what they do" don't guarantee their findings to be an exact science either. But I digress. My theory is that scouts, tests, and drills can't measure heart. Having that inner burn to be the best at any price. Enough of my ramble, back to the topic. Come on Dan (if true) you should have come out sooner (not like it would have mattered). Now it looks like: 1. You are trying to make yourself look good. 2. A wii (I know it's wee but in honor of the Nintendo) bit bitter in not getting the job. 3. Just flat out doing the T.O. equivalent of "Hey look at me!". Whatever the reason for it, be a man and own it no matter what. Bongo59 and Vinny great finds. I appreciate the info. All this does is make me hope and pray when VY does indeed blow up and has the opportunity to home here as a Texan that he decides to pass the Texans up. I'm a firm believer in you reap what you sow.
The Capers/Casserly thing came from Capers experience in Carolina where the team got old right under his feet and there were not young player ready to take thier place. The problem is that dou over reacted to this possibility and then overpaid guys who were average at best because they were 26-27 year old FA.
TheOgre
All Pro
Rich Lord (610 am) has the biggest man crush on VY in this town. Richard Justice is not far behind. McClain wanted Young, but he didn't try to sell it to the same level as those other two.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
I do not believe this story is new. I heard that Reeves would have picked Vince Young at the time that Houston announced that the two final candidates were Williams and Bush. (Heard it through my sports talk addiction so I don't have a link).
Wait, here's a semi link: link
I believe, at the time he said it, he was no longer acting as consultant. That he said he thought Carr could be a player who could be successful in the league, but he would have picked Vince Young.
Personally, I think you could have picked VY even if you thought DC would have a future in the league. I am pretty sure that Reeves said that DC could have a future in the league--that doesn't preclude someone from deciding to take VY though--it just means that the decision on that was a FEBRUARY decision and not an April draft decision.
The timing of everything was terrible. VY signals he stays in school until he doesn't and hires a ridiculous choice as his agent. He's immediately get slammed for poor performance in a made for TV event, etc. Even VY's best supporters suggest that he is going to be a project in the NFL. Kubiak hired in January. Basically a week and a half then Carr's option has to be addressed.
I am guessing most of the coaching candidates in talking about Carr figure that the math of this means:
Would you rather have Carr + Bush or Vince Young - Carr - Bush?
McNair wants to do things from a purely football perspective. I am guessing nobody was selling VY as a pick from a football perspective even though that easily can be done, stats and results wise. (And Casserly evidently still doesn't think VY is worth much of anything given his list of top QBs). It is not quite as easy to prove in February that he is worth chucking Carr and Bush, but it could have been done.
Personally, I do think that fan support is part of home field advantage and IS part of a football decision, but it is evident that this wasn't put in the pros and cons at all.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
As someone who thinks that VY is going to be an excellent QB in the league, I believe it is wrong to declare his choice a no brainer.
Even the biggest mancrushers believed that VY was going to be a bit of a project, and would have to sit.
You would have had to make the VY choice in February when Carr's option was due. That's a big commitment to make then, because people supporting that choice have to say that VY is better than Carr + Bush.
(Further complicated by getting cold feet about Bush when he doesn't seem to want to be in Houston and wants to jack the team up, knowing that the Texans aren't going QB. I thought the way the entire draft stuff was handled was terrible. If Mario was going to be the pick, they needed to signal he was in the mix long before they did--it was unfair to the fans and to Williams. Also, it was a mistake to say that QB was most likely off the table, even though they did that partially to get fans to get over the VY thing.).
Vinny
shiny happy fan
I don't think that is the case and I think you have latched on to the weak sauce that makes up popular thought. I've talked to plenty of people who were laughing at the "experts in the media" and the sheeple saying it would take years for VY to play....I think all that was ridiculous myself. Before the draft I even posted numerous times that he would play soon into his first year...but I just got bashed by the sheeple around here.
To further complicate this I hear that we extended Carr to the max 3 year contract instead of the 2 because we were afraid it would hurt his feelings and send the wrong message that we weren't sold on Carr...that's so romper room it's ridiculous.....they need to get over that and just roll out good football players based on competition (David has yet to compete for his spot in 5 years). Stop worrying about protecting people's feelings and sending supportive PC messages.....the only message I want as a fan is that the Texans don't have blinders on and will play the best of the best at every single position and evaluate ALL the players in the draft....especially in the most important position. None of the QB's were even looked at closely in the best QB draft in years. Passing up Young for Carr is like saying we have Dom Davis so we don't need Earl Campbell.
Personally, I thought there were legitimate questions about how Young's game would transalte to the NFL. He has certainly answered those questions well so far. I think he has a couple more years to improve aspects of his game and show he's the real deal over the long haul.
However, I do have the ability to learn after I err. I think the only true obstacle to his success right now is an injury that takes his legs away. He needs to avoid as many big open field hits as he can.
However, I do have the ability to learn after I err. I think the only true obstacle to his success right now is an injury that takes his legs away. He needs to avoid as many big open field hits as he can.
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
I'm starting to think the reason that the team exists is to market David Carr. Don't let his feelings get hurt at any cost...he needs to keep smiling so he can keep getting commercials and modeling shoots. Good QB play is secondary.
I think it's obvious now who's been coddling David Carr all this time.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
All I know it is that today is December 16th 2006, and the QB we selected in 2002, David Carr looks just like he did last year and the year before and the year before that.....well, except for the fact that he is on pace to have a better completion % and less TD's. Does more completed 5 yard passes make the fans feel better? Yeah, the Carr only fans as they seem to love it....all the Texan fans are in pain otherwise.
texasguy346
Mod Squad
The scary thing about this is that it brings into doubt the ability of this organization to make tough decisions. If they can't make a decision to pickup a young QB in one of the better QB drafts last year then how can we possibly trust them to make the right decision about Carr in the offseason. This front office looked at all the talented QBs in last years draft, and said "No Thanks" we like what we see in Carr. Can we really expect them to look at the available FA QBs in the offseason or the QBs in the draft with a realistic eye for talent? Or are they simply going to stand pat with Carr claiming yet again that he's full of potential that is still untapped 5 years into his career. It's a very frustrating situation to be in as a fan of this organization.