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Do they gradually work CJ in or does he start the opener?

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
No qb in the history of football got a full playbook in the 1st season, much less 1st start. None! So how was all the other qbs any different than CJ?
It's. not different at all. My point is if they run the Kubiak version of the WCO that should help Stroud out.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Understand this sentiment, but I think it is more an outcome of a QB driven league these days with all the rules favoring the offense, and the rush to be competitive before the 5th year option, as opposed to the notion that QB's are inherently more ready to start Day 1 as a rookie than they were in the past.

You get the exception in someone like Mahommes that was drafted by a team that was already good with an offensive mastermind in place, but the norm is generally going to be a bad team with more than likely a new coach, setting the stage for some bad decisions - and performances - in the name of turning things around quickly.

I personally expect CJ to struggle at the beginning of the season as one would expect of a rookie on a team coming off of a three-win season. What I do not expect is CJ to still be struggling at the end of the season. I'll hold off getting out my pitchfork, lighting my torch and joining the mob storming the castle until then.
It usually takes 2 1/2 years to know what you have at QB.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
If you're drafted 1-2 you are expected to start game 1. Tell me the last QB that was drafted 1-1 or 1-2 that didn't start right away. If they were looking for a project they should have drafted Richardson. No excuses.
Besides, starting game 1 for those guys doesn't guarantee success.

Murray may not last this year.

Then you have guys like Wentz, Winston, Mariotta, Griffin, Newton, Bradford.

What were their careers like?
 

The Pencil Neck

Hall of Fame
If you're drafted 1-2 you are expected to start game 1. Tell me the last QB that was drafted 1-1 or 1-2 that didn't start right away. If they were looking for a project they should have drafted Richardson. No excuses.
This seems like a fair question.

In the past 30 years (back to 1993), which QBs were selected #1 or #2 overall and didn't start their first game:
1. Baker Mayfield
2. Mitch Trubisky
3. Jared Goff
4. Jamarcus Russell
5. Alex Smith
6. Eli Manning
7. Michael Vick
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Carson Palmer... I put him last because I wanted to look up his history to make sure I wasn't making a mistake. The Bengals drafted Palmer #1 overall and then sat him his entire first year, letting him watch JON KITNA play instead.
 

DBCooper

Outlaw
Contributor's Club
This seems like a fair question.

In the past 30 years (back to 1993), which QBs were selected #1 or #2 overall and didn't start their first game:
1. Baker Mayfield
2. Mitch Trubisky
3. Jared Goff
4. Jamarcus Russell
5. Alex Smith
6. Eli Manning
7. Michael Vick
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Carson Palmer... I put him last because I wanted to look up his history to make sure I wasn't making a mistake. The Bengals drafted Palmer #1 overall and then sat him his entire first year, letting him watch JON KITNA play instead.
Dude!

Davis Mills and Case Keenum

He better start!
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
This seems like a fair question.

In the past 30 years (back to 1993), which QBs were selected #1 or #2 overall and didn't start their first game:
1. Baker Mayfield
2. Mitch Trubisky
3. Jared Goff
4. Jamarcus Russell
5. Alex Smith
6. Eli Manning
7. Michael Vick
8. Donovan McNabb
9. Carson Palmer... I put him last because I wanted to look up his history to make sure I wasn't making a mistake. The Bengals drafted Palmer #1 overall and then sat him his entire first year, letting him watch JON KITNA play instead.
Bigger list than I thought.

Also kind of telling about expectations for a #1/#2 pick these days that the list only has 3 from the last 15 years, during which time 15 total QB's were drafted at #1 or #2.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Bigger list than I thought.

Also kind of telling about expectations for a #1/#2 pick these days that the list only has 3 from the last 15 years, during which time 15 total QB's were drafted at #1 or #2.
Ok

That begs the question, what does the word "should" mean?

2 of the three that didn't start are without a doubt busts, Goff is on the hot seat.

12 of 15 started their 1st game. How'd that work out for them?
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
Ok

That begs the question, what does the word "should" mean?

2 of the three that didn't start are without a doubt busts, Goff is on the hot seat.

12 of 15 started their 1st game. How'd that work out for them?
My response was not a commentary that starting Day 1 is the right thing to do, but rather it IS what they have been doing in the last several years. For better or for worse. Back to my points around high draft capital, new coach, pressure to turn a bad team around, fan in seats, etc.. I can think of a few careers that might have been saved had they sat versus played.
 

TheRealJoker

Hall of Fame
Gelling and developing chemistry is PARAMOUNT for Stroud and the rest of the offense.

Is John Metchie going to be available?
Hope so. But after beating cancer anything the team gets out of him is a bonus. If I remember right, David Quessenberry came back from similar cancer diagnosis. But it took him 4 seasons to become a significant contributor. Granted, Metchie is a more talented prospect than Quessenberry was coming out. But i’m not expecting to see that come back until year three or four.

As far as I am concerned with projections, Tank Dell is taking his production.

If Metchie makes a full recovery then that’s a huge lift for this offense!
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Hope so. But after beating cancer anything the team gets out of him is a bonus. If I remember right, David Quessenberry came back from similar cancer diagnosis. But it took him 4 seasons to become a significant contributor. Granted, Metchie is a more talented prospect than Quessenberry was coming out. But i’m not expecting to see that come back until year three or four.

As far as I am concerned with projections, Tank Dell is taking his production.

If Metchie makes a full recovery then that’s a huge lift for this offense!
Looks like Ryans and Caserio agree with you.
 

leebigeztx

Keep it Movin!
A terrible GM/HC.
Bosa, Williams, Allen,Eckler, Mack, Sayler, Everett, the safety,can't think of his name, Slater, etc. Now, I've read your post regarding the former #4 who used to qb and you never threw that excuse out even with the roster of players Herbert has vs the roster of players #4 had. Not one time did I read one of your post that spoke about the disjointed roster then, but now, with Herbert, that's the blame huh. I'm guessing it was the head coach and gm who blew that playoff lead to a guy in his 2nd year after throwing 4 picks too huh? Just be consistent.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Bosa, Williams, Allen,Eckler, Mack, Sayler, Everett, the safety,can't think of his name, Slater, etc. Now, I've read your post regarding the former #4 who used to qb and you never threw that excuse out even with the roster of players Herbert has vs the roster of players #4 had. Not one time did I read one of your post that spoke about the disjointed roster then, but now, with Herbert, that's the blame huh. I'm guessing it was the head coach and gm who blew that playoff lead to a guy in his 2nd year after throwing 4 picks too huh? Just be consistent.
Name the TE/RT/Speed WR that has been upgraded over the last 3 yrs.

This doesn't even take into account Staley absolutely costing the Chargers a playoff spot 2 yrs ago.
 

leebigeztx

Keep it Movin!
Name the TE/RT/Speed WR that has been upgraded over the last 3 yrs.

This doesn't even take into account Staley absolutely costing the Chargers a playoff spot 2 yrs ago.
How many young qbs started off with a Keenan Allen, Mike Williams and Austin Ekler along with the talent on defense? It doesn't have to be a speed or te, which Chargers have had somewhat, but what about having a chain mover like Allen and Eckler? Then the traded for Mack and drafted Johnston this past draft.
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
How many young qbs started off with a Keenan Allen, Mike Williams and Austin Ekler along with the talent on defense? It doesn't have to be a speed or te, which Chargers have had somewhat, but what about having a chain mover like Allen and Eckler? Then the traded for Mack and drafted Johnston this past draft.
Yep.

I remember I argued with someone who said that a rebuild should be as fast as the Chargers. That team was stacked and didn’t have to experience the same level of roster rebuild or have to deal with no draft picks and have a bad salary cap situation.
 

leebigeztx

Keep it Movin!
Yep.

I remember I argued with someone who said that a rebuild should be as fast as the Chargers. That team was stacked and didn’t have to experience the same level of roster rebuild or have to deal with no draft picks and have a bad salary cap situation.
I've said it could be as fast as Cincy. Let me say this, regardless of how good he turns out or fails as oc, if the Texans had hired someone like EB, it would've led to the same credibility as hiring Demeco. even if it wouldn't have kept Watson in the fold, EB could've started the rebuild 2 years ago.
 

Earl34

Hall of Fame
Conventional Wisdom says to play in 30 games, and you know what you got.
I guess this means we still don't know what we have with Mills. :lol:
Yes. 30 games are supposed to be the benchmark. However, without starting one NFL game, some people claim to know from draft night what you got.

Mills has played in 28 games and started 26 of them. So, he still has 2-4 games left to show his stuff to the naysayers. However, when you look at QBs getting a chance to start 30 games, it's not always guaranteed. For example, Mills has started more games than Ryan Leaf (21), Johnny Manziel (8), Jamarcus Russell (25), Matt Leinart (18), Jake Locker (23), Dwayne Haskins (13), Drew Lock (21), Josh Rosen (16), Mason Rudolph (10), Paxton Lynch (4), and Brandon Weeden (25).

Shoot, many here were touting Nate Peterman who only started 5 games to show his stuff. Maybe, Caserio should sign him.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
How many young qbs started off with a Keenan Allen, Mike Williams and Austin Ekler along with the talent on defense? It doesn't have to be a speed or te, which Chargers have had somewhat, but what about having a chain mover like Allen and Eckler? Then the traded for Mack and drafted Johnston this past draft.
Williams and Allen cant stay healthy.

They finally tried get Herbert some help. But still haven't solved the RT issue. I would move Salyer out to RT and find a new LG. Even if it meant trading for one at the end of camp.
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
I've said it could be as fast as Cincy. Let me say this, regardless of how good he turns out or fails as oc, if the Texans had hired someone like EB, it would've led to the same credibility as hiring Demeco. even if it wouldn't have kept Watson in the fold, EB could've started the rebuild 2 years ago.
EB wouldn’t have brought draft picks or a clean salary cap.

Last year was a bad year for QBs. This year is better. Out of the last four years Texans have only had a first round draft pick in the last two.

Given that information there is no way to have turned the Texans around as fast as Cincy did.

EB has popularity because he has coached under Reid and seems to be next in line for a HC but there is something about him that teams don’t like. Maybe how he interviews? It is something because the league is under scrutiny for not having many black head coaches. He may be a little like Zimmer. Zimmer also didn’t interview well and it took a while for him to get a HC job.

He doesn’t have the credibility that Demeco has or he would have been hired by now. Eliot Wolf and EB should pair up. They seem to be in the same boat.
 

leebigeztx

Keep it Movin!
EB wouldn’t have brought draft picks or a clean salary cap.

Last year was a bad year for QBs. This year is better. Out of the last four years Texans have only had a first round draft pick in the last two.

Given that information there is no way to have turned the Texans around as fast as Cincy did.

EB has popularity because he has coached under Reid and seems to be next in line for a HC but there is something about him that teams don’t like. Maybe how he interviews? It is something because the league is under scrutiny for not having many black head coaches. He may be a little like Zimmer. Zimmer also didn’t interview well and it took a while for him to get a HC job.

He doesn’t have the credibility that Demeco has or he would have been hired by now. Eliot Wolf and EB should pair up. They seem to be in the same boat.
Salary cap is a traffic cone. Trading Watson brought the picks. Some of the cap issues were also brought along by Caserio. EB has some of the same issues a my man from Pittsburgh,Arizona, Tampa, and the Colts
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Salary cap is a traffic cone. Trading Watson brought the picks. Some of the cap issues were also brought along by Caserio. EB has some of the same issues a my man from Pittsburgh,Arizona, Tampa, and the Colts
What cap issues?
 

Earl34

Hall of Fame
Bosa, Williams, Allen,Eckler, Mack, Sayler, Everett, the safety,can't think of his name, Slater, etc. Now, I've read your post regarding the former #4 who used to qb and you never threw that excuse out even with the roster of players Herbert has vs the roster of players #4 had. Not one time did I read one of your post that spoke about the disjointed roster then, but now, with Herbert, that's the blame huh. I'm guessing it was the head coach and gm who blew that playoff lead to a guy in his 2nd year after throwing 4 picks too huh? Just be consistent.
Kudos for trying to inject logic into an inconsistent opinion. But you know it doesn't matter. To summarize.
  1. If you like a QB and he throws 4 INTs and loses a playoff game. You blame the defense, GM, HC and lack of speed at TE
  2. If you dislike the QB and he throws 4 TDs and loses a playoff game. You blame the QB for the lack of defense, missed FGs and mistakes by the HC and GM
  3. If it's Jimmy G and he throws for 25 yards and wins a playoff game, he's a winner and championship QB
  4. If Jimmy G loses any game. Who cares. Did you see those eyes and chin?
 

Texansballer74

The Marine
Kudos for trying to inject logic into an inconsistent opinion. But you know it doesn't matter. To summarize.
  1. If you like a QB and he throws 4 INTs and loses a playoff game. You blame the defense, GM, HC and lack of speed at TE
  2. If you dislike the QB and he throws 4 TDs and loses a playoff game. You blame the QB for the lack of defense, missed FGs and mistakes by the HC and GM
  3. If it's Jimmy G and he throws for 25 yards and wins a playoff game, he's a winner and championship QB
  4. If Jimmy G loses any game. Who cares. Did you see those eyes and chin?
All facts!
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Kudos for trying to inject logic into an inconsistent opinion. But you know it doesn't matter. To summarize.
  1. If you like a QB and he throws 4 INTs and loses a playoff game. You blame the defense, GM, HC and lack of speed at TE
  2. If you dislike the QB and he throws 4 TDs and loses a playoff game. You blame the QB for the lack of defense, missed FGs and mistakes by the HC and GM
  3. If it's Jimmy G and he throws for 25 yards and wins a playoff game, he's a winner and championship QB
  4. If Jimmy G loses any game. Who cares. Did you see those eyes and chin?
What?

Herbert has great WR's when healthy. They're rarely healthy.

Did Herbert throw 4 ints in that game?

What does this have to do with Jimmy G?

Talk to our resident Chargers fan BL and he will give you the low down on the Chargers.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
Yes. 30 games are supposed to be the benchmark. However, without starting one NFL game, some people claim to know from draft night what you got.

Mills has played in 28 games and started 26 of them. So, he still has 2-4 games left to show his stuff to the naysayers. However, when you look at QBs getting a chance to start 30 games, it's not always guaranteed. For example, Mills has started more games than Ryan Leaf (21), Johnny Manziel (8), Jamarcus Russell (25), Matt Leinart (18), Jake Locker (23), Dwayne Haskins (13), Drew Lock (21), Josh Rosen (16), Mason Rudolph (10), Paxton Lynch (4), and Brandon Weeden (25).

Shoot, many here were touting Nate Peterman who only started 5 games to show his stuff. Maybe, Caserio should sign him.
Those that were "touting" Peterman was doing so only as a day 2 or day 3 draft pick. Not bad for a guy who was a 5th RD draft pick and is still in the league 7 years later.
 
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welsh texan

You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
You mean the great John Elway wasn't infallible?
Definitely something in Elway’s inability to pick a QB, like the game being so easy for him that he can’t identify what’s needed to be successful as he just was etc.

Then, opposite end of the spectrum you have Kubiak who worked his bollocks off to back him up and can seemingly make anyone look a competent QB because of it.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
You need to look at the projected cap space for 2024.
We've been down this road many times before. The amount of salary cap space does not equate to being a responsible fiduciary or understanding contract negotiation. Everything we've seen from Caserio clearly says that he is not very good at either. In every instance, he has made things worse, not better. Caserio ignores the trade value chart which is why he gets taken advantage of in every trade. He doesn't understand or use the S2 so it should not come as a surprise if Stroud is not who many want him to be. If Caserio was a pilot he would fly by the seat of his pants. In other words, he lacks the skills and experience. He can screw up the 2024 salary cap as easily as he screwed up the 2021 and 2022 salary caps.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
We've been down this road many times before. The amount of salary cap space does not equate to being a responsible fiduciary or understanding contract negotiation. Everything we've seen from Caserio clearly says that he is not very good at either. In every instance, he has made things worse, not better. Caserio ignores the trade value chart which is why he gets taken advantage of in every trade. He doesn't understand or use the S2 so it should not come as a surprise if Stroud is not who many want him to be. If Caserio was a pilot he would fly by the seat of his pants. In other words, he lacks the skills and experience. He can screw up the 2024 salary cap as easily as he screwed up the 2021 and 2022 salary caps.
I see 2021-2022 as cleaning the cap, was he unable to sign, re-sign anybody he wanted on the team?

The S-2 thing bothers me but was that Caserio or Cal, Hannah mandating the pick? I know Cal denies this, but I don't believe him. If true and Stroud is a Caserio pick and not a Cal, Hannah,Ryans pick then Caserio should be fired because he will have sentenced the franchise to mediocrity.
 
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