badboy
Hall of Fame
and lose 6 paydays?
Death to Google Ads! Texans Talk Tip Jar! 🍺😎👍
Thanks for your support!
Will Fuller suspended 6 games
- Thread starter zshawn10
- Start date
Surely there's an exception if it's prescribed.
Decim8
Veteran
Texans were on record that everyone was tradeable except 4 players. Gummon steelb we already discussed this
Fine, go to the outside doctor(s) for second, third, or infinite number of opinions.
But, as soon as any doctor hands you a little bottle or prescription, you've got several options as a pro athlete.
NFL has a toll free line for this specific subject.
The NFLPA also has specific procedures to help players 24/7/365 for verifying any meds or supplements.
Every player has an agent.
Every player has access to medical personnel on the team staff.
And there's always critical thinking for researching it yourself using the internet and a variety of resources and publications.
Blaming the doctor is like blaming Ford because I got a speeding ticket. It's a weasel-move cop out.
Dude should just be a freakin' man and own his decisions instead of acting like an entitled child that appears incapable of accepting basic accountability for his responsibilities as a professional.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Never know really. For all we know WFV was recommended to this guy by someone he knew that has worked with him and came out better for it. WFV goes to the doc and says, “I’ve been having problems with my hammy for the last few years & traditional therapies haven’t been working”...in response the doc tells him with great precision what the problem is and sells him on some new type of therapy that he’s pioneered or specializes in....WFV let’s him know about the NFL’s banned substance policy and the doc’s like:
So....WFV’s got the word of whomever recommended him to this doc, & the doc’s word and at that point, he either decides to trusts the dude or not. & given how he was performing and likely feeling, he had no real reason to believe that his decision to trust dude wasn’t the right one. Just a tough break for a guy having a career year.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
the more apt comparison would be blaming Ford for selling you a car they know is defective...Like Volvo with that “clean diesel” **** they tried to pull back in 2014 I believe.
I get it...actually mostly agree with you. but the NFL’s policy isn’t airtight...far from it in fact. The Duane Brown case is an example of this.
Aside from that, He may not have been handed anything to take to the NFL for analysis....or it could’ve been a timing thing in terms of the turnaround time the NFL needs to analyze a certain substance. Could just as easily have been some nondescript looking gel rubbed on him by a prep nurse “pre therapy”.
not saying this is the most likely scenario..but some of the **** I’ve seen doctors pull bro...I’ve just learned to not trust them until I can get a feel for their motivations...I know we’ve heard it a ton over the last decade or so from other athletes who’ve popped positive, but don’t just throw out his claim about doctor mistrust.
Last edited:
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
So why is it on the doctor to know the ends and outs of NFL policy unless that is something he deals with all the time? If it was the team doctor or a player union or NFL recommended doctor then ok yeah but if it was just a standard doctor then why should they have to know? I don't expect my doctor to know what is and isn't allowed under my company policies or for my job so if he prescribes me something its on me ask about the side affects and such and if I'm still not sure then check with my company. Fuller himself said that the doctor believed it was allowed which tells me it was not a doctor that deals with NFL players a lot. Also if it was working so good why didn't he go to his other doctors or the team doctors and ask why they hadn't given it to him before this other doctor did.
I also don't buy that it could have been an innocent gel or something, Fuller said it was prescribed so that means it was given to him not just rubbed on him. Also if he got it earlier this year then for it to pop now then he would have had to use it more than once so that means multiple pills, injections or visits. I'm not a doctor and CnD could speak much better on this than I can but a little bit of research says about 1 month for injected and 14 days in tablet form so yeah thats multiple use throughout the year. Bottom line is if you are playing in a sport that is cracking down on steroids and you are playing to get your big payday contract then you question everything. Fuller didn't know because he didn't want to know in my opinion.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I'm not saying he should & you make very valid points. But WFV obviously went to that guy on a rec from someone he knows...probably a doctor familiar with how to handle sports injuries. Aside from that, just b/c the doc said he believed it was allowed doesn't mean that he doesn't deal with NFL players alot. That NFL substance abuse list is long & i'm sure it's changing constantly just b/c the list of supplements & meds that come onto the market yearly (which are not FDA regulated) is never ending and grows every year. If it was prescribed, then that's a different story but could still be the case if its a supplement that contains trace amounts of a banned substance. & If you've paid any attention to the Olympics the last 20 years or so, you know that the concoctions and methods by which these guys use to beat drug tests these days is usually always ahead of the testing & you can best believe that there are countless other athletes in the NFL who have taken banned substances and not been caught. The NFL & its policy on PEDs doesn't have close to the resources and sofisticated testing techniques of a WADA, an organization that can barely keep up with the athletes it has to test.
The doctor might figure that whatever the doctor prescribed him, it would be "cycled out" of his system too quickly & that it's "unlikely" to be detected....which judging by the circumstances WFV finds himself in, that was false. Now, That could or could not make WFV complicit if in fact the doc told him...but we'll never know. All i'm saying is don't dismiss the doctor mistrust thing.
All of this being said, it could just be WFV saying.."hey this is a contract year, i gotta get right and perform by any means necessary & if i get caught, i get caught. I'll just take the 6 game suspension hit this year, in order to stay in the league and see a bigger pay day for the next 3-4 years. Pros definitely outweigh the cons for him.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
You make good points as well though the one thing I will say is athletes dodging the WADA have the backing of entire governments so they have resources that most would not have. I'm not completely absolving the doctor of all blame as he should have never guessed and made sure to confirm. The fact is we will never know the full story and I agree the pros out weighted the cons for him. From the Texans point of view I think Fuller is to big a risk unless he will take a fairly cheap or at least team friendly contract. He has been injuried every year since being drafted and his one break out year he gets suspended for 6 games right when he is needed most. To me that makes the risk to great seeing as we are already in cap hell.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I think as a weapon that DW4 has great chemistry & familiarity with and the fact that they didn't opt to unload him when they could, they have to entertain bringing him back. His injury history and now this only plays more into our favor to resign him at a reasonable contract imo. He could possibly go elsewhere and get more money, but chances are he won't be a potential #1 option like he is here & he'd be rolling the dice in terms of the qb he'd be playing with.
@CloakNNNdagger Do you know what substance Will got popped for? & if that substance "should" be of any benefit to his hamstring or core muscles?
Texans were on record that everyone was tradeable except 4 players. Gummon steelb we already discussed this
Would you take that 4rh Rd pick now? Plus the cap rollover?
Committee ineptness, this is why you don't put players on the committee. Cal's a dumbazz.
Decim8
Veteran
Its easy to say that now after finding out about WFV peds. WFV staying put has nothing to do with "players on the committee", they simply didn't get what they wanted in return
SnakeEyes
Under NRG
Incorrect, I am saying IF he is involved it's a huge deal. It can chase away a great HC. And why mention him? Because every single year he has an injury. To this point he has been injury prone. Suddenly, with 2 confirmed PED cases is also the same year he hasn't been mentioned at all about any type injury. It's just odd and I hope a coincidence. Otherwise, we are in serious trouble, far more than we are already. So like him and think he is what we need at QB or not...I don't want this shipwreck turning into something worse. Put you bias aside and think of how bad it would be. I don't think haters or lovers of Watson want it that bad.
SnakeEyes
Under NRG
Might as well put jj watts name in there too, he's missed more games than Watson and now all of a sudden he's playing every game this year .....
Feel free to add him. I'm just saying that IF our top guy is included the issues we have now will seem pretty small. And that's not good. Like him hate him or don't care either way. Nobody wants this whole situation to be/get worse. It will make it harder to get a good HC or GM and could cost picks we don't have already. Maybe more. It would be a disaster not a problem we can cope with.
I called for trading anybody they could, particularly WFV/Watt/N.Martin etc.. before the trade deadline due to the cap rollover and what could've been done in FA with that extra cap space. (If the Texans ever really participated in FA.) The badly needed extra draft picks were just a cherry on top. (No revisionist history here)
Having a 3rd and three 4th's would've allowed the Texans to move up into the 2nd rd very easily for instance. An early 3rd plus and early 4th and they could've easily moved up into the mid 2nd rd range. Plus they would still have two more 4ths. At the cost of keeping WFV in a losing season when you knew you would lose him for nothing in FA. But say the new GM really liked WFV and wanted him back on the Texans, guess what the new GM could have paid him in FA and got him back.
Bottom line is this is why you dont let players make these kinds of decisions. Or members with no football experience make these kinds of decisions. Heck they should've brought back old man Shanny if they needed a football guy to show them direction. (Which they currently dont have and are laughing stocks of the NFL) Just like Bob McNair hiring Dan Reeves to evaluate Bob's org. Instead Cal hired Easterbunny to evaluate Janice's org and the Texans are where they're at today because of brilliant decisions like that one.
Decim8
Veteran
I have no issues with the majority of the things you mention except for the part I bolded. You need to let that go. If watson had as much say as you think he does, fuller would never made it to the tradeblock, in fact there wouldn't even be rumors of it at all
Decim8
Veteran
Its weird you even consider watson though, did you think the same thing of andre Johnson, foster or anyone of our top guys when Cushing got busted?
However I just find it weird for qbs and peds to be mentioned in the same sentence lol of the top of my head I think the last one was Sanchez?
agreed. Fuller was on the block, according to RAC they wanted a deluxe nuts package for him and they were offered peanuts so they kept him
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
No word yet. But anabolic steroids have been found to increase muscle bulk and strengthen muscle, but to have little positive effect on muscle healing. Mineralocorticoid steroids like prednisone have been shown to improve muscle healing, but is not a banned substance. HGH is considered a PED that has been shown to enhance healing.
As further commentary.:
There is no way the physician caring for Fuller did not know his status as an NFL player. The list of banned substances are indeed lengthy and confusing to a lay person. But any doc choosing to treat an NFL player should either be familiar with these drugs........and know their mechanism of action so that any substance not formally on the list that has a similar mode of action (any similarity) including unclassified designer drugs is red-flagged and not used without consulting with the League office. Any exceptions to giving/taking a substance on the list must have written permission by the League office BEFORE it is prescribed/administered. As far as supplements, the NFL has a very limited list of approved supplements produced by specific companies.............a list supplied to every NFL player. Any supplements not on this list must be petitioned by the player for consumption prior to consumption............and is unlikely to be approved anyway. But, bottom line, by the CBA, the player, not a doctor or a trainer or a consultant or a friend, is responsible for the final decision as to what they choose to proceed to be exposed to any delivery form of ingestion, injection, inspiration or topical application..........it is up to them to exhaust all questions involving that decision, and in the end if need be, through the League office.............the final arbiter.
He didn't want WFV to be traded and he wasn't traded.
Forgetting about that it's the philosophy of standing pat that will set this franchise back another 2-3 yrs or longer. Who has this philosophy, Cal? Or did this philosophy come from the committee. Even if you choose to give DW4 a pass (I dont) then was it Easteregg that put this philosophy in place? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Cal and even if it was Easteregg then the rest of the committee should've told Cal that it would be better to move on as fast as possible. This didn't happen so the rest of the committee should be responsible for the issues with the franchise going forward.
Those peanuts would be pretty sweet right about now.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
So you’re saying that if the franchise QB or Captain America got popped for PEDs it would be a much bigger issue? No way.
SnakeEyes
Under NRG
If you don't think so I'm sorry. But right now we have 2 players who we could cut/trade and it would not be that much issue. Neither of them are not able to be replaced even with no pick till the 3rd. Meanwhile, you add in the starting QB and star DE. You now have what looks like a drug den of a locker room, a staff that has been allowing it. Because someone knew it was a banned substance seeing unless it is banned. Would give a list of any medicine you are taking to the team doctor. It's a simple trickle down effect. And suddenly the whole team looks dirty, misguided (that's the issue now) and unable to follow rules.
Again, name a HC or GM that would want to even bother trying to fix it.
SnakeEyes
Under NRG
Yes I thought the whole team should have been tested then too. And I have to wonder about Foster to this day. Many players with an injury like his do seem to suddenly either get traded or something unusual. That is if they suddenly start playing again and have zero issue. He was a soft tissue Injury and he said it started in college. The team doctor said it was cronic and would linger. Enough said.
The last QB I feel was doing something like PEDs was Luck. When he went out of the country for treatment. Then missed time and suddenly came back. The reason is in many countries certain things that are illegal or against NFL protocol are allowed. Would not shock me to find out at some point that's why he retired.
Increased muscle bulk & strengthen muscle would prevent future tears right? As in anabolic steroids could in fact explain how Fuller can perform at the level he has for the length of time he has.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Guess I should have added a captain Obvious emoji.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Thanks Doc.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Theoretically that may be true. But at the same time, if the muscle size/strength maximizes, tendons don't get any larger or stronger.............and these players begin commonly seeing tendon tears because of the disparate strength of the structures.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Franchise tag
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
One of the most ill advised CBA changes agreed to, driven by the NFLPA was............The new CBA also shortened the window for testing prior to the season from four months to two weeks at the beginning of training camp. How many infractions of the NFL drug/supplement Policy are likely to be picked up in such a small window.
In 2018, ~30 players tested positive prior to the season and were suspended for PEDs.
In 2019, ~30 players tested positive prior to the season leading to season suspensions.
This year, only 3 players tested positive prior to the season beginning and resulting in suspensions in season.
Per the new CBA, each week during the preseason and regular season, 10 players on every club will be tested. The player will be notified of test sample "A" being positive and will be given a week to decide if he wants to appeal and ask for the sample "B" to be tested. With Fuller having admitted that he was just recently notified and did not choose to appeal his positive test , and the team admitting that they were not notified until Monday of the positive test, his positive test will have occurred within the month.
In 2018, ~30 players tested positive prior to the season and were suspended for PEDs.
In 2019, ~30 players tested positive prior to the season leading to season suspensions.
This year, only 3 players tested positive prior to the season beginning and resulting in suspensions in season.
Per the new CBA, each week during the preseason and regular season, 10 players on every club will be tested. The player will be notified of test sample "A" being positive and will be given a week to decide if he wants to appeal and ask for the sample "B" to be tested. With Fuller having admitted that he was just recently notified and did not choose to appeal his positive test , and the team admitting that they were not notified until Monday of the positive test, his positive test will have occurred within the month.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I have finally found documentation of the new CBA suspension rules which accounts for the discrepancies I posted previously. This removes all doubt that the substance for which both Fuller and Roby tested positive was an anabolic agent (which would include any anabolic steroid or testosterone derivative):
Positive Test Result for Stimulant, Diuretic or Masking Agent -- two regular and/or postseason games.
Positive Test Result for Anabolic Agent -- six regular and/or postseason games.
Positive Test Result for Prohibited Substance plus Diuretic or Masking Agent/Attempt to Substitute, Dilute or Adulterate Specimen/Attempt to Manipulate Test Result -- eight regular and/or postseason games.
Positive Test Result for Stimulant, Diuretic or Masking Agent -- two regular and/or postseason games.
Positive Test Result for Anabolic Agent -- six regular and/or postseason games.
Positive Test Result for Prohibited Substance plus Diuretic or Masking Agent/Attempt to Substitute, Dilute or Adulterate Specimen/Attempt to Manipulate Test Result -- eight regular and/or postseason games.
Oh... I thought his hamstrings were muscle tears. Or are you talking about his groin?
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Most hamstring injuries occur in the thick, central part of the muscle or where the muscle fibers join tendon fibers.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Of course, the worst, the Grade III hamstring ruptures (which are typically the only grade that requires surgery), are usually the hamstring tendons tearing away from the bone.
SnakeEyes
Under NRG
Not all steroids add mass. But, I will not bore you with the details. I am a licensed trainer but that is for work not message board stuff.
SnakeEyes
Under NRG
They don't have the masking agents the Tour de France guys have. Ask Lance Armstrong
Texansballer74
The Marine
Fullers performance has nothing to do with steroids. He’s always been fast, he was a track kid in HS, he was really fast at ND, he was born that way. Most of Fuller’s early injuries were contact related and could have happened to anyone, fractured clavicle, broken ribs, and the ACL. I think the bulk of his muscular injuries happened the year after his ACL. You have to understand, rehab isn’t the same thing as performance training. He spent the year rehabbing the knee, you cannot take a surgically repaired knee and expose it to the forces necessary to get the body ready for a NFL session during the rehab process. It takes time to heal. Once the knee has properly healed, then you can expose it to higher level stress. I don’t think Fuller had the time needed from injury to the start of the next season to fully recover and get the required performance training to stay healthy for the season. That’s why he kept getting injured Guys that run as fast as he does put tremendous forces on their bodies. Every once and a while you get a genetic freak like AP that rehabs and comes back at a high level but that’s not the norm.
I really don't think PED's "Keep one from getting injured" .... they are used more as rehab / healing aids than for prevention. @CloakNNNdagger can correct me on this if I'm off base.
Not really .... it's more an elasticity issue than a strength one.
Again , I could be wrong , I'm no doctor but I have had pulled hammy's many times in the past and was always told that stretching was what prevents these rather than actually being "stronger". The more elastic those muscles , the more stress they can take. Running stretches them out like rubber bands , the more elastic they are , they further they can stretch without tearing (A pull is a tear).
Worst part is that during the healing process , you cannot stretch or stress those muscles or you risk further / re-injury. It has to heal literally 100% prior to restarting activities.
I pulled / tore an abductor in my left leg in January of this year and every time I'd stand up without using my hands to take some of the weight off , I'd re-injure it. Took several months to heal.
Franchise tag for 2020 was WR: $17.865 million , transition tag was WR: $15.680 million.
That's #1 WR money .... I think it's too much , especially when you factor in this suspension to his previous injuries.
I'd offer $12m and walk away otherwise. They just don't have the cap space to go higher sa they will have 38 players under contract and be $12,166,925 over the cap as of right now.
There are guys who will get cut / traded to open up some $$ but they have 17 roster spots to fill by making those cuts and every cut increases that by 1.
They'll have to free up a minimum of about 15-21m depending upon the years of service each of those players have for Minimum contracts , then $15.68 - $17.865 on top of that if they transition or franchise Fuller. So $35+m to fill out the roster with minimums , franchise Fuller and adding no higher quality FA's.
That doesn't sound like a very productive offseason to me.
Have a read - Texans related 2020 NFL Roster Construction by Salary Range | Over the Cap
Actually, it is a strength issue, muscle fibers tear because a force was placed on them that they cannot handle. The more you stretch a muscle the weaker it gets, you can google the length tension relationship for more info on this. A quick rundown, the more you stretch a muscle the fewer actin/myosin head line up, which limits force production. If the muscle cannot handle the force you’ll have some fibers tear. Muscle/tendons do have elastic properties and that’s one of the keys to high performance, so on one hand you’re correct in that elasticity is important. However, don‘t think of it as flexibility, when running at high speeds, the muscle actually fires and tenses up to allow the tendon to stretch and it recoils at a very high rate which produces very fast movement. Tendons can recoil much faster than muscles can contract.
Where flexibility can help is actually in one of the opposing muscle groups, the hip flexors. If the hip flexors are overly tight they’ll pull the pelvis out out of position which will overly stretch the hamstrings. If the hamstrings are overly stretched from the onset, it’s really easy to get into the range where they are weaker so they’ll tear easier. This is often why people’s hamstrings feel tight, their hip flexors are overly stretching the hamstrings
Hopefully, this makes sense
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Great info CnD, so in your opinion was the doctor just ignorant or did Fuller doctor shop till he found one that gave him what he wanted? Also how long would they have stayed in his system? The quick google search I did said 1 month for an injection and 14 days for a pill so would this have likely been something Fuller has been taking all year or did he just have the bad luck of taking 1 does and then getting popped? Last question but Tex and I were discussing if this could have been like a gel a nurse used pre therapy and Fuller might not even have been aware what they were doing. Would you say thats possible or would, in most cases, a doctor or nurse tell a person what a gel/rub is?
Sorry for all the questions but you, and maybe Otisbean, are the only ones I would trust to answer these with any real authority.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Thats hindsight and if we are going to use hindsight then no team ever has really gotten it right. Would I have liked them to trade Fuller even at the time, yes because we need the picks and cap space but isn't the thing we hammered Cal for is letting OB trade Hopkins for nothing? So while I would have traded at the same time if say GB was just offering a 6th then yeah I would have kept him and taken my chances with the comp pick. I'm not going to beat up the Texans for not knowing Fuller was taking banned meds and I'm not going to beat up Watson in particular for it. Far as i know Texans are limited by the CBA in how much and often they can drug test, correct me if I'm wrong, so they like every other team has to roll the dice.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
I wouldn't. I would bring Stills back at a great price, develop Keke and accent Akins. With the college game and all the passing, you can get wrs. I've been trying to replace Fuller with Stills, Metcalf, and McLaurin for the past couple of years. Not only that, there are always discount dudes in free agency.
Seems like a great plan to me.