FIRE O'BRIEN NOW!!!

[OptimisticTexan]

True,

The learning curve is deep.

You know what BOB needs to do to make the learning curve almost non existent.

OB's been at the helm for 6 identical seasons.....high hopes that were dashed quickly or in the 1st game of the playoffs.

Anyone catch the Lions game......Patricia has the Lions offense looking really good. They should've won the KC game b/c the offense went step for step with KC's offense.

 

[theCATALYST]

This ever evolving "Game Plan" offense of O'Brien's is the issue. It is the only way I can see why this offense can be so hot one game and cold another. Straight from OB's mouth, he develops a game plan that supposedly targets our next opponents weakness to create mismatches. I think Bob's film study needs work.....it is possible he is wearing too many hats to do any one of them effectively. Sometime's he has a good game plan and calls a good game (Saint's and Chargers") and other times he looks as inept as ever (Jaguars and Panthers).

I think Bill needs to devote 100% of his efforts into calling a game, OR 100% of his efforts into managing a game. He needs to be forced to give up one or the other entirely.

 

[maverick512000]

OB's been at the helm for 6 identical seasons.....high hopes that were dashed quickly or in the 1st game of the playoffs.

Anyone catch the Lions game......Patricia has the Lions offense looking really good. They should've won the KC game b/c the offense went step for step with KC's offense.

Yeah Lions were very surprising, Stafford finally looked like he was worth the big money they are paying him and defense was good to, they held Mahomes to no TDs, stop and think about that a minute.

 

[steelbtexan]

OB's been at the helm for 6 identical seasons.....high hopes that were dashed quickly or in the 1st game of the playoffs.

Anyone catch the Lions game......Patricia has the Lions offense looking really good. They should've won the KC game b/c the offense went step for step with KC's offense.

They have Stafford who is a really smart guy and an accurate passer. Plus their OL has played together more than 6 games.

 

[steelbtexan]

This ever evolving "Game Plan" offense of O'Brien's is the issue. It is the only way I can see why this offense can be so hot one game and cold another. Straight from OB's mouth, he develops a game plan that supposedly targets our next opponents weakness to create mismatches. I think Bob's film study needs work.....it is possible he is wearing too many hats to do any one of them effectively. Sometime's he has a good game plan and calls a good game (Saint's and Chargers") and other times he looks as inept as ever (Jaguars and Panthers).

I think Bill needs to devote 100% of his efforts into calling a game, OR 100% of his efforts into managing a game. He needs to be forced to give up one or the other entirely.

Agreed

Sometimes BOB has a QB that can read a defense and deliver the ball accurately sometimes he has a QB that cant.

 

[otisbean]

Agreed

Sometimes BOB has a QB that can read a defense and deliver the ball accurately sometimes he has a QB that cant.

Not being argumentative but what QB has used his system effectively besides Brady? As you and others have pointed out the first seven games where he and Watson were successful (at least offensively) he modified things to include some of Watson’s college concepts.

 

[santo]

List of things we still need to fix:

1. OL needs to gel, even though the coach seems to shuffle it every week it seems.
2. We are in a rebuild, even though we don't have much draft picks.
3. Kenny Stills needs to get healthy because without him the offense struggles. Coutee all of a sudden can't be productive in the offense. Carter or Duke Johnson can't be used in the receiving game for some reason.
4. Watson needs to be smarter like Brady, otherwise we need to start looking at cloning Brady.
5. Start looking into managing time on the field better instead of worrying about players setting up their alarm clocks at home.

Bottom line is that we're screwed because most of these things are not OB's job.


Other than that, I think we're in good shape.

 

[OptimisticTexan]

List of things we still need to fix:

1. OL needs to gel, even though the coach seems to shuffle it every week it seems.
2. We are in a rebuild, even though we don't have much draft picks.
3. Kenny Stills needs to get healthy because without him the offense struggles. Coutee all of a sudden can't be productive in the offense. Carter or Duke Johnson can't be used in the receiving game for some reason.
4. Watson needs to be smarter like Brady, otherwise we need to start looking at cloning Brady.
5. Start looking into managing time on the field better instead of worrying about players setting up their alarm clocks at home.

Bottom line is that we're screwed because most of these things are not OB's job.

Other than that, I think we're in good shape.

In OB's system, it's all hands on deck to block b/c those long developing pass plays to 2 or maybe a 3rd receiver take mucho time for the receivers to finally get past the double teams. Unfortunately, even with the extra blockers the receivers are having a tough time beating the coverage.

 

[steelbtexan]

Not being argumentative but what QB has used his system effectively besides Brady? As you and others have pointed out the first seven games where he and Watson were successful (at least offensively) he modified things to include some of Watson’s college concepts.

Jimmy G

I'm on board with running the offense BOB used the 1st 7 games.

 

[santo]

In OB's system, it's all hands on deck to block b/c those long developing pass plays to 2 or maybe a 3rd receiver take mucho time for the receivers to finally get past the double teams. Unfortunately, even with the extra blockers the receivers are having a tough time beating the coverage.

That's because the defense only has to account for 2 guys, Fuller and Hopkins.

As soon as Stills went down, it seemed to throw a wrench in what OB wanted to do. The play that puzzles me is when there were 2 checkdowns next to each other(Johnson and Hyde). I thought that was funny.

 

[JB]

Jimmy G

I'm on board with running the offense BOB used the 1st 7 games.

Jimmy G has never run OB's offense

 

[CPTTexan]

Jimmy G

I'm on board with running the offense BOB used the 1st 7 games.

What are you even talking about? Jimmy G runs Shanny's offense....which equates to a variation of Kubiak's offense. Jimmy G has never been coached by O'Brien.

 

[santo]

If Bill O'Brien was a quarterback, he couldn't even run this offense.

 

[TheKDog]

Jimmy G has 12 interceptions in his last 11 games.

Zero teams would take him over Watson

 

[Mr teX]

This ever evolving "Game Plan" offense of O'Brien's is the issue. It is the only way I can see why this offense can be so hot one game and cold another. Straight from OB's mouth, he develops a game plan that supposedly targets our next opponents weakness to create mismatches. I think Bob's film study needs work.....it is possible he is wearing too many hats to do any one of them effectively. Sometime's he has a good game plan and calls a good game (Saint's and Chargers") and other times he looks as inept as ever (Jaguars and Panthers).

I think Bill needs to devote 100% of his efforts into calling a game, OR 100% of his efforts into managing a game. He needs to be forced to give up one or the other entirely.

Wade Smith spoke to this yesterday on 610 & I agree with what he said. Its the approach based on the opponent that causes the inconsistency. When we play qbs who aren't expected to do much or there is very little fear of them doing much through the air, his approach more often than not has been to have a conservative run-to-set-up-the-pass gameplan only opening it up when he has had to. I guess he figures that the only way teams in that situation can compete & beat us is if we turn it over a ton by being too aggressive in the air. But when we play opponents who do have a good qb that he has feared and who can put up points, The approach more often than not has been to be aggressive & open it up b/c he knows we have to put up alot of points just to be able to give ourselves the best chance to win. When you sit back & think about it, this is more or less how it has gone across DW4's starts dating back to 2017.

Saints 2019 - 28 pts... Brees
Chargers 2019 - 27 pts ....... Rivers
2018 Colts 1st game......37 pts ...Luck....even if you take out the defensive score..still 30 pts scored by the offense
2018 Philly...........30 pts......Foles
2018 Colts 2nd game.....24 pts...Luck
2018 Dolphins....42 pts....Oz....but the Dolphins just sucked that bad + it was a thursday night game...
2018 Titans........34 pts....Mariota...Monday night night game
2017 Pats..........33 pts.....Brady
2017 Titans........57 pts....Mariota.....Titans were trash
2017 Chiefs........33 pts....Smith..
2017 Browns.......33 pts....? Browns were trash
2017 Seahawks....38 pts...Wilson..

Save for a few instances where our opponent was just that bad, All of the best performances of out offenses over the last couple of years under DW4 fall into that bucket.

If you flip it, you more or less see the opposite trend...where we're squeaking out the wins against not very good Qb's and teams overall & we're not putting up more than 21 pts very often in doing so

 

[otisbean]

Jimmy G

I'm on board with running the offense BOB used the 1st 7 games.

When has BOB coached Jimmy G? I understand the we and the Patriots use the EP system but to my eye it’s coached differently here then it is in NE. Each coach puts their own spin on things, I’m sure you can take 3 coaches using the same system and they would attack a team 3 different ways

 

[steelbtexan]

What are you even talking about? Jimmy G runs Shanny's offense....which equates to a variation of Kubiak's offense. Jimmy G has never been coached by O'Brien.

Go back and look Jimmy G started he's and won games for the Pats using the EP system. It takes quick recognition and accuracy to run the EP system, which is why I want BOB to go back to running the system Watson ran those 7 games.

Because qick thinking and accuracy are the areas Watson struggles with.

 

[Mr teX]

Go back and look Jimmy G started he's and won games for the Pats using the EP system. It takes quick recognition and accuracy to run the EP system, which is why I want BOB to go back to running the system Watson ran those 7 games.

Because qick thinking and accuracy are the areas Watson struggles with.

I don't necessarily think that's a systemic issue with him though b/c we've seen him do it & do it well. It just takes learning when to switch to that & when to switch away from it.

 

[TheKDog]

I don't think obrien can process the game fast enough to be OC for an EP system. When the defense adjusts, he doesn't know what to do, and it's at least a week of film watching before he figures out what to do

 

[steelbtexan]

Jimmy G has never run OB's offense

He ran the Pats offense, which is essentially the same EP system BOB ran in Foxboro.

 

[steelbtexan]

When has BOB coached Jimmy G? I understand the we and the Patriots use the EP system but to my eye it’s coached differently here then it is in NE. Each coach puts their own spin on things, I’m sure you can take 3 coaches using the same system and they would attack a team 3 different ways

It is and the difference is the QB running the system and until this yr the lack of talent are why the systems look different.

 

[steelbtexan]

When has BOB coached Jimmy G? I understand the we and the Patriots use the EP system but to my eye it’s coached differently here then it is in NE. Each coach puts their own spin on things, I’m sure you can take 3 coaches using the same system and they would attack a team 3 different ways

It is and the difference is the QB running the system and until this yr the lack of talent are why the systems look different.

 

[CPTTexan]

Go back and look Jimmy G started he's and won games for the Pats using the EP system. It takes quick recognition and accuracy to run the EP system, which is why I want BOB to go back to running the system Watson ran those 7 games.

Because qick thinking and accuracy are the areas Watson struggles with.

So why does it look like a travesty when O'Brien runs it, but it seems to work with Josh McDaniels running it? Perhaps it's the coach that is the problem. You're also talking about a modified system for the Patriots. Brady had SB wins long before Bill O'Brien and Josh McDaniels came into the fold for the Patriots. That EP system for Brady is tailored to Brady. Therein lies the problem. Bill O'Brien isn't intelligent enough to modify his system to the most talented QB we've ever had.

Here's my ultimate question:
What will it take for you to see that Bill O'Brien isn't the answer here?
How many (more) years does this guy get a pass? When do his excuses run out?

 

[steelbtexan]

I don't necessarily think that's a systemic issue with him though b/c we've seen him do it & do it well. It just takes learning when to switch to that & when to switch away from it.

You just described a young QB that's still learning on the job. This is one of the reasons I said this is a 3 yr rebuild. Gotta get the rookie OL and Watson some experience.

 

[steelbtexan]

So why does it look like a travesty when O'Brien runs it, but it seems to work with Josh McDaniels running it? Perhaps it's the coach that is the problem. You're also talking about a modified system for the Patriots. Brady had SB wins long before Bill O'Brien and Josh McDaniels came into the fold for the Patriots. That EP system for Brady is tailored to Brady. Therein lies the problem. Bill O'Brien isn't intelligent enough to modify his system to the most talented QB we've ever had.

Here's my ultimate question:
What will it take for you to see that Bill O'Brien isn't the answer here?
How many (more) years does this guy get a pass? When do his excuses run out?

Brady plays for the Pats and Watson is still learning. Brady wasn't Brady of today 2 years into his career.

I said after RS left this was a 3 yr rebuild and my thoughts haven't changed. Regardless of what some here think the timeline hasn't changed.

The only way to change the timeline is to go back to running Watson's college offense. You on board with this?

 

[TheKDog]

Hopefully next week obrien will have a counter for the cover 4 other than a 2 yard dump off

 

[ghostlight]

get it done already-- I'm tired

 

[maverick512000]

Brady plays for the Pats and Watson is still learning. Brady wasn't Brady of today 2 years into his career.

I said after RS left this was a 3 yr rebuild and my thoughts haven't changed. Regardless of what some here think the timeline hasn't changed.

The only way to change the timeline is to go back to running Watson's college offense. You on board with this?

No he wasn't but BB didn't expect or require Brady to be the Brady of today two years into his career. According to you BoB needs Watson to be the Brady of today two years into his career.

 

[steelbtexan]

Hopefully next week obrien will have a counter for the cover 4 other than a 2 yard dump off

He had the answer last week, but Watson missed 6-7 throws and that was the game.

 

[CPTTexan]

Brady plays for the Pats and Watson is still learning. Brady wasn't Brady of today 2 years into his career.

I said after RS left this was a 3 yr rebuild and my thoughts haven't changed. Regardless of what some here think the timeline hasn't changed.

The only way to change the timeline is to go back to running Watson's college offense. You on board with this?

But Brady was the Brady of today long before O'Brien and to a certain extent Josh McDaniels.

It's going to be hard to rebuild when our coach is a genius and our QB is an idiot in your eyes.

I don't think we need to run a purely college offense....so NO, I don't agree with it. How often do college offenses work in the pros? The answer is never. I have ZERO problem with implementing some of Watson's college plays into the overall playbook, but should an NFL team run a strictly college offense. No.

The bigger issue has been alluded to by many, including you I believe. O'Brien thinks he's the smartest guy in the room when he clearly isn't. The gameplan for each individual opponent doesn't work. This is the difference between the Patriots and the Texans offenses. The Patriots play to their strengths while O'Brien tries to gameplan against the opponents weaknesses.

You would think O'Brien would know this since he clearly taught Brady so much........he typed with heavy sarcasm

 

[dream_team]

Quite simple. Abandon the gameplan approach and embrace an offensive philosophy of passing to set up the run instead of the direct opposite approach he does now. Stop trying to emphasize being balanced. Run more tempo..roll the pocket more...and let the chips fall where they may.

We’re really not as far off as folks in here think. We’ve had good offensive performances in 2 out of the 4 games so far this year and those 2 were against 2 pretty good teams. Typically under BoB we’ve only gotten 2 to 3 a year...if that.

OK, so not really that much different from what alot is saying in here. You agree that the current offensive scheme should be modified. Since you're such a stout defender of BOB, I assumed you would argue "The scheme is fine, DW4 needs to play better."

 

[TheKDog]

He had the answer last week, but Watson missed 6-7 throws and that was the game.

Dump offs are not an answer for a good coach

 

[JB]

Go back and look Jimmy G started he's and won games for the Pats using the EP system. It takes quick recognition and accuracy to run the EP system, which is why I want BOB to go back to running the system Watson ran those 7 games.

Because qick thinking and accuracy are the areas Watson struggles with.

If you think Watson was running the EP system those 7 games, WTF?

He ran the Pats offense, which is essentially the same EP system BOB ran in Foxboro.

If you think OB's Houston EP system is anywhere close to what is run in NE, you're fkn nuts

 

[mws]

This is where O'Brian sucks as a coach. With Watson obviously struggling for whatever reason why didn't O'Brian run the ball more. Our running game was working. It was a close game so we didn't need to keep coming out slinging it. But once again he cannot adjust to what is happening in the game.

Rushing
Hyde ATT 12, YDS 58, LNG 25, AVG 4.8
D Johnson ATT 6, YDS 56, LNG 40, AVG 9.4

Total ATT 18, YDS 114, LNG 40, AVG 6.3

Also if he had not stupidly used all 3 of our timeouts we could have stopped the clock during the Panthers last field goal drive.

The Panthers got the ball with 4:05 left in the game. They ran 7 plays and took 3:37 off the clock before kicking a field goal.

We got the ball with 0:28 left in the game. If we had even had 1 timeout we would have had over a minute left in a one score game (16-10).

This is coaching 101 stuff that O'Brian has failed to do for 6 years now.

 

[Earl34]

Yep,

You cant expect him to run a pro style offense at this point in his career apparently.

For the last couple of responses, you have been passive aggressively pushing this narrative and insulting the kid’s intelligence.

Quit ***** footing around and playing coy. Are you claiming Watson is too stupid to run O’Brien’s precious EP system?

 

[Mr teX]

OK, so not really that much different from what alot is saying in here. You agree that the current offensive scheme should be modified. Since you're such a stout defender of BOB, I assumed you would argue "The scheme is fine, DW4 needs to play better."

It's not so much a scheme thing so much as a preparation and identity thing & it's more of a tweek in consistency in how we should be preparing and calling plays from game to game...

Every scheme in the NFL works. what separates them is how good the qb is, the overall personnel within it, & skill of the playcaller....& the skill of the playcaller matters less & less depending on how good the 1st 2 are.

Its why guys like Norv Turner...Mike Martz to name another, can be absolute gods in Dallas/STL as OC's, but be downright shitty OC's in other places. Those guys didn't forget how to call plays from 1 team to another.

 

[Uncle Rico]

It's not so much a scheme thing so much as a preparation and identity thing & it's more of a tweek in consistency in how we should be preparing and calling plays from game to game...

Every scheme in the NFL works. what separates them is how good the qb is, the overall personnel within it, & skill of the playcaller....& the skill of the playcaller matters less & less depending on how good the 1st 2 are.

Its why guys like Norv Turner...Mike Martz to name another, can be absolute gods in Dallas/STL as OC's, but be downright shitty OC's in other places. Those guys didn't forget how to call plays from 1 team to another.

Norv Turner looked pretty good with a washout QB on Sunday. I guess the defense should have held them to 9 points instead of 16 yeah?

 

[maverick512000]

It's not so much a scheme thing so much as a preparation and identity thing & it's more of a tweek in consistency in how we should be preparing and calling plays from game to game...

Every scheme in the NFL works. what separates them is how good the qb is, the overall personnel within it, & skill of the playcaller....& the skill of the playcaller matters less & less depending on how good the 1st 2 are.

Its why guys like Norv Turner...Mike Martz to name another, can be absolute gods in Dallas/STL as OC's, but be downright shitty OC's in other places. Those guys didn't forget how to call plays from 1 team to another.

But the skill of the play caller can be an issue even if the first two are not if the play caller is not willing to change anything and keeps trying to do the same thing over and over even when its not working. I'm not even talking game to game I'm talking making adjustments in the game when its clear that your QB is having a bad day or the defense is shutting down the run or its going to be a low scorer where a FG might be the winning points. There are only two possible answers for not adjusting A) BoB is a complete idiot and has no business being in the NFL or B) he is trying to focus on to much and therefore is making mistakes on all of it. Even his worst critics, that actually know something about the inner working of the a football and aren't just people on this board, don't think he's not fit for the NFL so it must be B.

You know he can't be focused on game planning through the week when he is now doing GM duties and has to oversee that, you know he can't be focused on time outs and clock management when he has to be calling plays and you know he can't be making sure that everything is covered GM wise when he also has to coach. Everyone of those is a full time job and even if he has assistants my guess is he is trying to do it all. That's not an ego issue that is a fear issue. I keep saying this but BoB is acting like every first time manager I've ever seen in that they think they have to do it all to make sure its done right. Difference is BoB doesn't have a senior manager to sit him down and say that he has to back off because frankly Cal is a first time owner so he's learning to.

 

[Mr teX]

But the skill of the play caller can be an issue even if the first two are not if the play caller is not willing to change anything and keeps trying to do the same thing over and over even when its not working. I'm not even talking game to game I'm talking making adjustments in the game when its clear that your QB is having a bad day or the defense is shutting down the run or its going to be a low scorer where a FG might be the winning points. There are only two possible answers for not adjusting A) BoB is a complete idiot and has no business being in the NFL or B) he is trying to focus on to much and therefore is making mistakes on all of it. Even his worst critics, that actually know something about the inner working of the a football and aren't just people on this board, don't think he's not fit for the NFL so it must be B.

You know he can't be focused on game planning through the week when he is now doing GM duties and has to oversee that, you know he can't be focused on time outs and clock management when he has to be calling plays and you know he can't be making sure that everything is covered GM wise when he also has to coach. Everyone of those is a full time job and even if he has assistants my guess is he is trying to do it all. That's not an ego issue that is a fear issue. I keep saying this but BoB is acting like every first time manager I've ever seen in that they think they have to do it all to make sure its done right. Difference is BoB doesn't have a senior manager to sit him down and say that he has to back off because frankly Cal is a first time owner so he's learning to.

Im not discussing the game management issues...I think those sort of speak for themselves. & you see at times we do change our approach after half time. Its what happened in the LA game..& we tried it with the panthers last week. Problem is when nothing is working what do you do? At no point in the CAR game did it look like we had any semblance of rhythm on offense. Sometimes the defense just wins. Saw that in the Pats game...KC struggled..the Rams got blown out by the frickin Bucs...Indy got dropped by the Raiders....

 

[steelbtexan]

For the last couple of responses, you have been passive aggressively pushing this narrative and insulting the kid’s intelligence.

Quit ***** footing around and playing coy. Are you claiming Watson is too stupid to run O’Brien’s precious EP system?

As of right now yes.

Can he learn? Hopefully

 

[steelbtexan]

If you think Watson was running the EP system those 7 games, WTF?



If you think OB's Houston EP system is anywhere close to what is run in NE, you're fkn nuts

He was running his college offense those 7 games.

BOB cant run the offense properly because his QB is to inaccurate and is struggling to read coverages. So of course the offense isn't going to look like the Pats/Brady offense.

 

[steelbtexan]

If you think Watson was running the EP system those 7 games, WTF?



If you think OB's Houston EP system is anywhere close to what is run in NE, you're fkn nuts

He was running his college offense those 7 games.

BOB cant run the offense properly because his QB is to inaccurate and is struggling to read coverages. So of course the offense isn't going to look like the Pats/Brady offense.

If you cant see this I dont know what tell you.

 

[Texansphan]

Bottom line in all of this is Bill O'Brien should be facilitating the development of DeShuan Watson and the opposite is happening.
Not good enough.

 

[steelbtexan]

Dump offs are not an answer for a good coach

Dump offs were all that he seemed to be able complete. Watson was really bad last game. Just admit it and move on.

 

[TheKDog]

Dump offs were all that he seemed to be able complete. Watson was really bad last game. Just admit it and move on.

No he has shown he can complete those passes. Obrien has shown that when a defense adjusts to his scheme he doesn't know what to do.

There is extensive evidence for this over 6 years.

 

[steelbtexan]

But Brady was the Brady of today long before O'Brien and to a certain extent Josh McDaniels.

It's going to be hard to rebuild when our coach is a genius and our QB is an idiot in your eyes.

I don't think we need to run a purely college offense....so NO, I don't agree with it. How often do college offenses work in the pros? The answer is never. I have ZERO problem with implementing some of Watson's college plays into the overall playbook, but should an NFL team run a strictly college offense. No.

The bigger issue has been alluded to by many, including you I believe. O'Brien thinks he's the smartest guy in the room when he clearly isn't. The gameplan for each individual opponent doesn't work. This is the difference between the Patriots and the Texans offenses. The Patriots play to their strengths while O'Brien tries to gameplan against the opponents weaknesses.

You would think O'Brien would know this since he clearly taught Brady so much........he typed with heavy sarcasm

The biggest difference is Brady > Watson.

BTW, you do know the Pats gameplan for their opponets each week. Just like the Texans do. Go back and read BB's thoughts on this when the Texans played the Pats when Os was here.

 

[maverick512000]

He was running his college offense those 7 games.

BOB cant run the offense properly because his QB is to inaccurate and is struggling to read coverages. So of course the offense isn't going to look like the Pats/Brady offense.

Could have stopped right there.

 

[steelbtexan]

No he has shown he can complete those passes. Obrien has shown that when a defense adjusts to his scheme he doesn't know what to do.

There is extensive evidence for this over 6 years.

WTF were you watching? There were 6-7 plays to be made that didn't get made. Is BOB supposed to go out there and throw the ball to the wide open WFV? That happened 3 times.

 

[steelbtexan]

Could have stopped right there.

So you're saying the rest of the post wasn't true in last weeks game?

 

[ObsiWan]

Jimmy G has never run OB's offense

IF the offense Garappolo ran while still in NE (and with Belichick) is the same thing that O'Brien is trying to run here (jury is still out on that) then, he, Jimmy G., has used it with a bit of success.
If steelb is talking about this season, then he's wrong and you're right, Garappolo is running Shanahan's (Denver's) offense.