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The New New JaDeveon Clowney Thread
- Thread starter Marshall
- Start date
I meant it would be a good opportunity for O'Brien to deflate his ego & put the team first.
Oh not this **** again.
No. Clowney has no leverage. If he signs he can be traded to anyone the Texans want to send him to. If he doesn't sign, he doesn't get paid.
Right now, the best thing to do is for O'Brien & Cal to apologize for whatever happened this offseason. Blame Gaine. Assure Clowney next season we'll either get a contract he's happy with or work out a deal with a contender.
Then the window to trade Clowney opens back up between January 1st & July 15th of 2020.
Clowney sitting out this year will make it hard for a contender to want to trade for him next year.
What you think I hear.
What I actually hear!!!!!!
Yeah that’s right, lash out like an emo little pre teen girl....b/c that’s what u do.....with no actual sound thought just “I hate him!!!!!!”“
What I actually hear!!!!!!
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Agreed. Acquire a legit Lt now. If that's not possible buckle up and wait for him to buckle.
It's likely that the tag contract could be amended so that Clowney could restrict potential trading partners for the Texans to only teams he's willing to play for.
I would F him twice and let him figure out if he wants $$$$ or wants to be traded to a true contender. If he's willing to do this for 2 yrs and lose 36 mil or more then my hats off to him. After all the teams all about winning the salary cap championship to begin with.
BTW, With Luck retiring does that put the Texans org closer or farther away from the salary cap championship?
It's rare for the NFL because it diminishes an asset. That's college coach motivational stuff. Whatever you feel about Clowney, you don't disparage him while you're trying to deal him. How dumb is that? O'Brien is a college coach. He has never really got the NFL way. Would Belichick say that about one of his players? No freakin' way.
How do the Texans assure Clowney? They can't slide a no franchise tag clause in his contract. he can only sign the tender. Do you think Clowney would believe a word out of O'Brien's mouth?
Next year, would be the same thing. Clowney would have to be tagged before traded (tags are in March). And he would need to agree to a contract with another team prior to the sign and trade. Clowney has all the leverage.
And maybe you can explain why sitting out the year would mean squat to a team next year. I'd like to read that.
Mommy told him it was time to turn his phone off and get tucked into bed.
ColeThornton
Waterboy
So powda is no GM a step up from the last two...
be careful what you wish for.
What happens when Clowney goes to another team that doesn't have JJ Watt. What's going to happen when the offenses he goes against don't have to account for JJ Watt. Clowney averages less than 1/2 sack per game(in games he plays in) with JJ, how can that go anywhere but down when offenses make him there #1 priority. Let someone else give him the big bucks long term and regret it.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
ColeThornton
Waterboy
I agree and I can't think of a single other time OB said anything negative about one of his players, so his frustration level with Clowney must have been unique. It's very rare for College coaches to say anything negative about a player also. I remember when Steve Spurrier questioned Clowney's wanting to play and felt compelled to recant later. It was a bad look for a head coach to let his frustration with a player boil over publicly. But where there's smoke there's fire and it looks like Clowney's the only one in the league that think's he's worth what he thinks he's worth.
Pharaohcious
Waterboy
That's why he wants to go to a team that wants to "WIN NOW"... WIN NOW = Has pass rushers "NOW"
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Clowney's best season was 2017, when Watt only played the first four games. I think he'll be just fine w/o Watt.
badboy
Hall of Fame
First of all tunsil is not an elite left tackle; he is nowhere near Trent Williams. He is at best a good left tackle on a lousy offensive line. He may develop this year into a very good LT. He is not in the same category as Duane Brown was when he went to Seattle. DB at that point was not an elite left tackle. Clowney may or may not be there after 2 years but that would be up to the team he is playing with to make that happen. Miami is looking at more than likely the number one pick with or without Clowney at least should be top three picks. In the meantime this season moving tunsil, I suggest Isaiah Prince be given shot at replacing tunsil. Prince has the skillset to be at least an average left tackle and that's all you need for 2019. Let us not kid each other, no one in Miami is very concerned about Fitzpatrick or Josh Allen. You're 1.1 2020 pick can get you a very good quarterback and a left tackle minimum. I personally think it could get you a whole lot more. To be transparent, I do not want tunsil.
Why would the Texans do that? IMO that would be as bad as trading Clowney for a 3rd round pick & the third RB on Miami's depth chart.
The Texans will not miss any game checks if Clowney doesn't sign.
The Texans can tag him again next year, retaining his rights. & if he doesn't sign, it doesn't cost them anything.
If we're not winning I doubt anyone is going to point to Clowney's absence as the primary cause. I mean we've got so many other things going on right now.
I don't know.
The Texans also have to agree to trade compensation. They don't have to approve any deal Clowney comes up with. He can not sign next year & miss another year of pay, another year accrued time.
Then the Texans can tag him again.
You might be right. Why would anyone be worried about an athlete away fro the game for a year? He ought to pick up right where he left off. & knowing for a fact said player won't hesitate to sit out in the regular season if he's not happy. I'm sure teams love knowing that.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
All he has to do (if he's willing) is sign right after week 8 trade deadline.
That gets him his accrued time, he misses the trade deadline and he still gets a good chunk of money for half a years worth of work.
Texans would be fools to franchise him again at the increased salary and increased drama. Plus at that point the receiving team would have less leverage because they'd have one more franchise tag left and his salary would balloon.
If I'm Clowney I'd seriously consider that, if the Texans weren't going to trade me to a team I wanted to go to.
As far as sitting out a year diminishing value, Leveon sat out a whole year and got the second highest contract for a RB.
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maverick512000
Hall of Fame
You're not wrong but I found that very telling myself. Its one of the big reasons I've never been high on Clowney is because he has never seemed to live up to his potential. I'm not saying he's lazy but its more like a worker that does just exactly what their job requires and no more. They aren't lazy but they're not the ones you break out the bonus check for either. Clowney is great against the run game but just so-so in the pass game and the fact is this is a passing league now. Its why Watt is so feared because a QB turns around and there is Watt about to push his face into the ground while 2-3 linemen are hanging onto him for dear life.
Now, unconfirmed, reports say he is insulted the Texans are talking about trading him? If that's true then it really does show he over values himself and thinks that he is one of those players a team builds around, he's not. I keep asking this but what team is going to look at Clowney and say either A: "That's the guy we need to get us to the next level and make a deep run if not a SB run" or B: "That's the guy we need to build the defense around and make our franchise defense player."
At this point I don't want to trade Clowney. Had we made a deal prior to the July 15 deadline that would have been fine but now I want the Texans to get the
benefit of his services as a DE/OLB one more season then maybe we do a better job in the 2020 offseason the second time thru this process if he's still here.
If the only way we can induce Clowney to sign the tender is to provide assurances to him that when and if he's traded it would only be to a team that was accepable to him, then
lets put that condition into the contract and proceed with the season and let him play for us and get paid his game checks until and if he's traded.
You got a problem with that plan ?
He's not insulted. He doesn't want to go to Miami
badboy
Hall of Fame
I agree. I wonder since he fired his agent and as others have mentioned has come to the realization his value may not be what the agent led him to believe , realizes now that he could get big bucks and play on a championship team in Houston? O'Brien wipes some of the egg off of his face by increasing the Texans original offer of guaranteed money a little bit. Win for both sides. Does not look like we're going to get a left tackle using JD anyways. If Clowney back in the fold perhaps Texans would be willing to increase an offer to Washington for T Williams?
badboy
Hall of Fame
No! Signed Cal McNair. Where does Clowney's leverage go now?
The Texans did not negotiate with clowney. There is no offer to increase.
It is OBrien who is realizing he can't get an LT under contract for him
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Its funny to see how fans treat someone that they really dont have more than a superficial attachment too .. "just let his ass sit" .. "he dont play he dont get paid" .. "dude has no leverage" ..
Look how quickly it devolved to this! Not long ago talks were that Bill OBrien didnt want to trade JD, that Brian Gaine was working on a long term deal and now THIS!! JD was prepared to play this season for us under the tag, and he would have played great and been one of the brightest stars we have. That was up until the part that Bill Obrien tried to get cute and kept pretending to be a GM, by calling his pal in MIA, gauging interest and finally having the framework of a deal without ever including JD in the process. NOw that into itself is no big slight, I get the business, but how you handle that business speaks volumes, and Bill Obrien is still a young, incompetent manager. He has no business whatsoever in an executive arena. Cal should know this, he has an MBA, he's watched his Dad make billions. Instead he sits idly by while a charlatan ruins what his family founded. Damn shame.
A decent GM would have already had this under control. The obvious move is to have JD play for the TExans this year, it benefits everyone for next year even if the split is certain it allows both parties to get more out of the arrangement, instead now you have a psycho, renegade GM who is doing things based on his emotions. Its a bad formula for success.
Look how quickly it devolved to this! Not long ago talks were that Bill OBrien didnt want to trade JD, that Brian Gaine was working on a long term deal and now THIS!! JD was prepared to play this season for us under the tag, and he would have played great and been one of the brightest stars we have. That was up until the part that Bill Obrien tried to get cute and kept pretending to be a GM, by calling his pal in MIA, gauging interest and finally having the framework of a deal without ever including JD in the process. NOw that into itself is no big slight, I get the business, but how you handle that business speaks volumes, and Bill Obrien is still a young, incompetent manager. He has no business whatsoever in an executive arena. Cal should know this, he has an MBA, he's watched his Dad make billions. Instead he sits idly by while a charlatan ruins what his family founded. Damn shame.
A decent GM would have already had this under control. The obvious move is to have JD play for the TExans this year, it benefits everyone for next year even if the split is certain it allows both parties to get more out of the arrangement, instead now you have a psycho, renegade GM who is doing things based on his emotions. Its a bad formula for success.
Agree with all you say here Unc !
It's really amazing and very frustrating this has become such a total quagmire.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
I think he can be better too...but
Top 10 in TFL. Not as sexy as sacks, but almost as effective.
As far as the JJ comparison, I wish every player on the team had his drive. That's part of what separates him from everyone else and has made him a hall of famer halfway through his career.
Not going to be a lot of JJ Watt's coming through the NFL, let alone this team.
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
This is the nail hit on the head for me. In fact, I'd just stick one last nail in that coffin and point out that by shopping a blue chip asset for an LT you are highlighting the fact that you have wasted your 1st round draft pick on an LT who isnt going to be an LT and highlighted that no one except yourself trades a franchise LT away either.
If Clowney really doesnt want to play for Bill and Cal anymore, a shrewd GM might engineer a trade. Shame these clowns fired their GM with no succession plan
I cant wait for football to start because this team shiuld still be entertaining to watch at least.
Trail.Blazr
Hooked up to a Kool-Aid IV
And since the regular season is still to kick in, what we have here is likely the CALM before the STORM. Wow, this is going to be a crazy show.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Oh I agree that its not fair to compare to JJ, that's like saying Watson isn't a good QB because he's not at the same point Brady was his third year in. My biggest knock against Clowney is I think he has relied to much on his talent and freak athleticism. He hasn't really pushed himself, again I'm not expecting Watt level but look at these stats:
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClowJa00.htm
He has had as close to the same numbers as you can get in the NFL season to season baring rookie year and injury. Even his best year of 17 wasn't that much better than his other years. That shows me a player that, while not lazy, isn't really improving either. Either Clowney has hit his plateau or he has stopped trying to improve. Either way is does not warrant the big money contract that everyone is saying he wants and I don't think Clowney has realized that.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
You know this how?
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Aaron Wilson reported it
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Refreshing reading some of the same sentiment from jets fans in the comment section. The guys value isn't as clear cut as some here are just convinced it is. The league's apathy towards bringing him in is speaking volumes to that. It's at least as much about their doubts about signing him long term as it is about what his actual worth is to teams.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
funny to hear that JD's value is 'low' and the league is somehow 'on notice' and yet there are at minimum 5 teams in line to see who can swindle OBrien first. This is while JD hasnt even signed his tender yet!! LMAOOOO
"duur duur what his actual worth is" .. ridiculously obtuse and subjective to the "JD IS A BUM NOT WORTH THE MONEY" narrative.
"duur duur what his actual worth is" .. ridiculously obtuse and subjective to the "JD IS A BUM NOT WORTH THE MONEY" narrative.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
And?
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Try to keep up.
Noone's saying his value is "low"....... It's "how high" is his actual value. The only obtuse thing being stated around here is folks swearing up & down that his worth is waaayyyy up here yet apparently not worth as much as what Mack & Donald's is....Well, genius WHAT IS IT THEN? lol.
That is what noone, not even teams really knows...........& it's apparent except to those who have axes to grind with BoB.
zshawn10
All Pro
Latest on Jadeveon Clowney trade front: Texans focused on getting this Dolphins assethttps://t.co/ojT93VzENy
— Armando Salguero (@ArmandoSalguero) August 29, 2019
— Armando Salguero (@ArmandoSalguero) August 29, 2019
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
And that is the multi-million dollar question. Say you're the GM of the Texans, you have a player that has been good but he's not setting records or making QBs tremble in fear at the sight of him. Also he has an injury and surgery history that is the type where he could play anywhere from 5 more years to 5 more minutes. This guy's contract is up and he's ready to get paid. He's wanting to be payed like the best in the league but frankly he's not on the level of the best in the league. On the other hand he is good enough that you won't be able to sell to him that he should be paid average to above average level. You shop around but either no one is interested or the offers are basically they'll trade you a song and dance for him. On top of all this you have both your franchise QB coming off his rookie contract and your franchise, HoF defense player coming off his very team friendly contract.
So what do you do?
If you say "Stop being cheap and pay the man" ok fine so you pay him but he wants guaranteed money because he knows his career is on borrowed time as well. So do you give him the big guaranteed money? Remember your job is to look out for the Texans best interest not one player's best interests. Sometimes those things align but in this case they aren't.
If you say "Trade him and move on." Ok great but who do you trade him with and what do you take for him? He was your 1.1 draft pick and he has been a very good player so you can't sell him for cheap without getting fleeced but likewise no one is making any big or even fair offers.
On top of all this apparently there are some issues between Clowney and his agent and now he has to sign the tag so yeah that's a bit of extra fun added. Dejaview said it best, the guy is a GM nightmare and as much as the arm chair GMs here would like to say otherwise there is no good answer and there was no easy fix to any of this at any point.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
From the article: "Clowney is Houston’s franchise player..."
Franchise player? Does anyone really think this scenario is the exact same as trading JJ Watt? This can't be be the perspective of the Dolphins. For their sake, I hope not. They will set their team back significantly if they trade away a good LT -- who's never missed a game -- for a player with a ticking time bomb of a knee. That trade would affect the willingness of any team to deal with us.
& I stand by that. I am totally against any additional consideration being granted to entice Clowney to sign & play. No guarantee he won't be traded in 2020 or anything of the sort.
Absolutely agree we shouldn't be in this situation right now. It's much worse than it should have been.
Don't forget our key FA signing. We're telling everyone dude can't play but we're going to pay him $7.5M regardless.
eriadoc
Texan-American
I don't really understand what motivation the Texans have to trade Clowney. They've tagged him, so he has two choices: play or sit. Either way, the Texans retain control of his rights and can play this game for three years. They'll get something of value within that three year window, or he'll waste away three years of his prime doing CrossFit at home. There's no opportunity cost for the Texans at this point, and if he refuses to sign, there's no financial cost. If he does sign, they pay him very handsomely for a single year and can work on signing him to a longer term contract or work a sign and trade type deal with Clowney's buy-in. What's the worst thing that happens if Clowney sits? For the Texans, it means they're playing with a backup (probably Mercilus, who is pretty good in his own right) and they save $20M or whatever it is. For Clowney, he wastes a year of his prime, a chance to show the rest of the league that he's worth Khalil Mack money, and if he sits the entire year, an accrued year of NFL service time.
These two things are not equal. One of these entities has a helluva lot more to lose than the other. If I'm the Texans, I refuse to trade unless the offer is what I really want. If I'm the Texans, I can afford to fk Clowney's career over as hard as he wants it.
These two things are not equal. One of these entities has a helluva lot more to lose than the other. If I'm the Texans, I refuse to trade unless the offer is what I really want. If I'm the Texans, I can afford to fk Clowney's career over as hard as he wants it.
Porky
Hall of Fame
It's increasingly clear that if the Texans want Tunsil, they are going to have to up the ante for the reasons in that article. This whole thing has been entirely and completely mismanaged by OB, but at this point if we can pry one of the better young LT's in the league away from Miami, it may be worth adding some fuel onto the fire to make the deal. Clowney and a 3rd next year and another similar pick in 2021 if Clowney walks after next season might do it. So that last pick is a contingency based on the idea that Clowney signs a LT deal - but if he walks via FA Miami gets another pick to help compensate.
We'd finally have a good young LT that can protect Watson for the next decade and once the rookies get their feet wet and settle in - we'd have the makings of an above average line. And we'd be young there but by next year it could be one of the better lines in the NFL (if Devlin doesn't screw it up).
For me personally - it's Tunsil or bust. If we can't make a deal involving Tunsil I want no part of any trade to Miami and I want Clowney to sign and play this year for our D.
We'd finally have a good young LT that can protect Watson for the next decade and once the rookies get their feet wet and settle in - we'd have the makings of an above average line. And we'd be young there but by next year it could be one of the better lines in the NFL (if Devlin doesn't screw it up).
For me personally - it's Tunsil or bust. If we can't make a deal involving Tunsil I want no part of any trade to Miami and I want Clowney to sign and play this year for our D.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
eriadoc
Texan-American
See, this is my issue with the perception out there. That's not leverage. Sure, he can't be traded until he signs the tender, but the Texans don't have to trade him. Hell, it's probably not even in their best interest to trade him. Leverage is when you have control of a player's rights and can give him an ultimatum that says you either sign and play or you waste your career. If he doesn't sign, it doesn't even take up a roster spot. Like I said, there is really zero opportunity cost for the Texans here.
Younq Dolphin
Practice Squad
He’s in a rookie contract going into his 4th season; played at an elite level last year and you don’t want Tunsil when you have **** at OT. Got it
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
in that scenario the team would just be sitting there with their arms crossed saying "sign it or else" because all signs point to the Team abandoning Clowney and nobody on staff to mend fences so why should Clowney sign it only to be traded somewhere he doesnt want to be? What would be in the best interest of the team is to keep the pro bowl player first, but if the relationship is fractured beyond repair, someone has to have the vision to understand that forcing the issue now doesnt help anyone involved. JD has all the leverage because if he wanted to he could just sit out until AFTER the trade deadline, then report, get his year and do this dog and pony show again next year.
JD Clowney has been the consummate professional. He hasnt ONCE spoken out negatively about the situation, he has done everything by the book, up to and including saying that he WOULD play under the tag this year. Something happened, and that something I would bet originated from NRG stadium and that crew doesnt have the experienced policy maker/GM to make this situation work. There is a guy who is pounding his fist on a desk and telling everyone around him what he expects to happen. That isnt leverage either, thats totalitarianism.
Opportunity cost being a subject because the team is hell bent on finding a LT since the guys they scouted and devoted assets and time to appear not to be the guys for the job after all. Thats why this conundrum is so exhausting .. the team should just be practicing and getting better, JD was already on board. Now its a damn circus and nobody to blame but the front office of the Houston Texans.