When you have a cheapass team this is what you get and this comes from the top, not from BOB.
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Trent Williams LT Available
- Thread starter mussop
- Start date
When you have a cheapass team this is what you get and this comes from the top, not from BOB.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
I know this is just semantics, but Williams was an All-Pro one year in 2015. I get that once you earn the honor you get to claim it moving forward, and he has multiple Pro Bowl selections, but I did a quick look at All-Pro Tackles and there are like 12-13 guys who have earned at least one during his career.
I'm not knocking his talent, and he is clearly one of the better LT's in the game, but he wasn't the best in his prime nor is he now at 31. Sometimes we throw out that All Pro label as if it is the only justification needed to (overpay) bring in a talent.
The How Do We Fix The LT Problem discussions around here have at times felt like we just cashed our paycheck and walked into a strip club. Our desperation to get our needs met wants us to ridiculously overpay for good talent or seriously consider the below average talent. In the end you are either broke or have high regrets.
IMO, the price tag for Williams, if he were even to be made available by the Redskins, is too high. If Howard/Sharping don't move out from the Guard spots then hit it again in the draft. And keep hitting it.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
I get what you are saying and in principle I agree with you but everyone seems to forget context in regards to the Texans. Its like how people were saying Dillard could be coached and become a better LT, yeah in general that maybe true but for the Texans do you trust Devlin to do the coaching? Same here yes for many teams that maybe the case but we have a franchise QB that took 60+ sacks last season and was already knocked out one season. If I could trust either BoB to call plays or maybe Watson to not try and extend plays or maybe a combination of both then yeah I'd say go for the draft.
There does have to be a price limit and you can't just be stupid with the money *cough* Trent Brown *cough* but for a guy like Williams that will no question be an upgrade, and a big one at that, it would be worth it for our situation.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Agree to disagree on the use of draft capital. Were he in his prime? Sure. But to give up 1st round picks for a 31-year old veteran LT that will give you somewhere between 3-5 years at the max (and no guarantee at that) is a bit high. I would rather leverage the draft capital to move up in the draft for a can't-miss slam dunk Day 1 type of guy that you will have for the next decade. Howard obviously didn't come with that label, but I don't think that Dillard did either. Can't-miss LT's don't last into the bottom third of the 1st round.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
See and I think 3-5 years would be worth the 1st round because it gives you some breathing room to find a long term solution and then for that solution to adjust to NFL level play. Also there is the fact that moving up that high, unless the Texans completely blow a season, is going to cost you much more than Williams will and then you have a chance that your draftee will be a complete bust. There is no such thing as a "can't miss slam dunk Day 1" draftee, there are ones who turn out to be day 1 guys but none can be marked can't miss. With Williams he may get injured, a risk for any player, but at least you know he won't be a bust.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Not sure I agree with your assessment on it will cost more to move up than acquire Williams. To move up you trade firsts and throw in a 2nd or 3rd based on how far up you are moving. The Skins already rejected a 1st and there are some around these parts stumping to give up two 1sts to get him. To me, the draft capital you spend in both scenarios would not be significantly different from one another; however, I think the long term impact to draft capital is worse with the trade because you are still going to use future draft picks to find the heir apparent.
Neither scenario is right/wrong or perfect/without risk. My way is correct of course because this is a sports message board.
Who are these slam dunk early 1st round LTs you are speaking of?
Since 2002, these are the LT's that actually played up to the level of "can't miss" that were drafted in the 1st. This list goes to 2011 since that's about the last year I can see a "can't miss" talent with a long enough time span to judge.
Joe Thomas 1.3
Joe Staley 1.28 (so not even early)
Jake Long 1.1 (Debatable that he's a "can't miss" especially at 1.1)
Ryan Clady 1.12
Branden Albert 1.15
Duane Brown 1.26 (our pick)
Trent Williams 1.4
Russell Okung 1.6
Tyron Smith 1.9
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Not saying that can't-miss talent is in abundance, I'm saying if it is there then that is how I would use draft capital. Is there a risk that it isn't there? Sure. Just like there is a risk of trading for a 31-yar old that falls off a cliff performance wise. Not every good Olineman always plays well until 36. Neither scenario is perfect. Both come with risk. It's not a binary world. Just because I give my opinion about what I would do should I find myself in a job that I will never have doesn't mean that any idea/opinion other than mine is invalid.
Nowhere did I say it was invalid. However, you're the one talking about these "can't miss" early 1st round LT's. I pointed out, with examples, why that may not be relevant. I could get a list of LT's that weren't 1st round picks in the same time frame that would be just as good, if not better, in some cases.
To be fair, I didn't see many LT's drafted since 2012 that I have high hopes for becoming that "can't miss" LT. Taylor Lewan....maybe?? This current draft crop with Howard (if he's ever actually moved to LT) and Dillard are just way to early to even think about.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Not sure I agree with your assessment on it will cost more to move up than acquire Williams. To move up you trade firsts and throw in a 2nd or 3rd based on how far up you are moving. The Skins already rejected a 1st and there are some around these parts stumping to give up two 1sts to get him. To me, the draft capital you spend in both scenarios would not be significantly different from one another; however, I think the long term impact to draft capital is worse with the trade because you are still going to use future draft picks to find the heir apparent.
Neither scenario is right/wrong or perfect/without risk. My way is correct of course because this is a sports message board.
Yes of course, actually no that's wrong. Clearly my way is correct because I have deemed it as such and have a tweet backing me up.
@anexpert Maverick is correct
I'll accept your apology now.
There's risk involved, but you know this cheapass franchise isn't going to spend the $$$$ to bring in a guy like Williams
So you think being lucky is better than being correct on a factual matter? Got it. I will move on then.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
If they are can't miss guys they generally go in the first couple of picks and are usually trade bait - driving their price (in draft capital) much higher.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Fair. There is always risk (and busts) in the draft. There are always value picks outside of the 1st round. Never my intent to state otherwise. Would it be better to state that with nothing guaranteed, there are LT's in most drafts that most talent evaluators say that barring something unforeseen are going to be franchise LT's for their careers? Do we want the Texans to continue to play the risk game of trying to find value picks later or change the risk strategy to go in on the potential for a much greater upside? This question assumes of course that Howard won't be the starting LT for this team at some point in the near future.
You assume I was "lucky". That's your 1st problem. I stated "IIRC" and I did, in fact, remember correctly. It's been Week 8, or a few technical days after Week 8 ends, but before Week 9 for many years now. I wasn't aware if it had changed in the last year or so, so perhaps the other poster who mentioned Week 6, may have been right if I had missed something.
True. Of course there is always risk when you're talking about drafting this guy or that guy. I'd rather they get the "can't miss" guy if he's available, whether he turns out to be "can't miss" or not. Unfortunately our draft history shows we miss a lot more than we hit. Especially in the 1st round. I count roughly 7 1st round drafted players that were quality enough to disregard other players taken in the first round behind the Texans. That speaks to us needing better talent evaluation in the organization. Which I believe has been a common theme since 2002.
They didn't pass on Andre Dillard either but that hasn't stopped anyone from btching about it.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I'd pay him pretty good money, but I wouldn't give up a 1st round pick for him right now. It turns out that the Pats didn't either. That was a rumor apparently. I could part ways with a 2nd and something else though. He is to old for any higher compensation than that.
I would give up a 1st for 2-3 yrs of above avg LT play to protect Watson while I trained up a young guy to take over as Williams play declines
True, they were just the passive org they've always been.
True, they were just the passive org they've always been.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Nah, I'd much rather wait until next season and use that same 1st round pick on a LT or other offensive line position that I can have for a lot cheaper and is very young and likely less injury prone. Plus, you never know how well one of the guys we drafted in this draft may develop this year even.
Give me the proven guy to protect Watson's blindside. Just a different philosophy.
Number19
Hall of Fame
"...trained up...". What does that mean? Playing him out of position? Or sitting on the bench?
I can't speak for steelb but for me, it would be similar to what the Eagles are doing with Peters/Dillard. Let Howard/<other guy> learn the intricacies of the position by a guy who's gotten it done at a high level for a year or two.
Now you may say, well that's just a waste of 1 or 2 years of his youth, but there are plenty of guys in the league who've sat behind stars and then become great. Heck, one was the MVP last year.
badboy
Hall of Fame
As I understand until he signs his cap # is counted against the Texans total cap space. Keep in mind there is approximately 37 million dollars as is. If he signs and returns his 16 million will be prorated out per game of approximately one million each week. JD collects zero until he signs then remaining prorated amount fully GTD. $1 m per week is significant.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Nope. Not unless Packers can somehow recoup the five million dollar roster bonus they just gave him.
badboy
Hall of Fame
October 29th 4 p.m. New York time
badboy
Hall of Fame
No it is not just semantics as an all pro notably at LT which is primarily protector of our franchise QB is extremely unusual. A pro bowler for six additional years is phenomenal. He has been ranked by various sources as top five for three seasons IIRC. I have not seen many here suggesting ridiculous $ for TWill. Of course any contract is a risk but as with many sports you blow on the dice and roll them bones.
Can you be a little more helpful by identifying the 12 all pro LTs that meet Williams total package IE age/two year remaining on contract with amounts allowing us to fit reworked contract into our cap space? Then clarify those names by players that are even remote possibility of being traded? I sound like that Angie's List commercial but it fits.
I like your strip club analogy and almost replied using it but would be too lengthy and most would go "enough already!" if haven't already.
We do not know the price tag for him so..how could it be too much for you? Hitting the draft frequently leads to high regrets so are you not contradicting at least that part of your post? I love Scharpie and was posting about him before his last college season but in long run I like Howard's ceiling at LT more than Scharpies. Also if Fulton is new center who is your right OG? More specifically who is your RT if Henderson goes down?
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
My concern, OB could be in control of the draft in 2020....I’d probably use the 2020 draft capital to get Williams now.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
That’s fair. In general I’m just not about going after aging veterans. But like nobody else, I’m not the Texans GM.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I agree but a likely 4-5 seasons with TWill allowing younger guys to develop or play other spots is hard for me to ignore.
To be fair, all of those with the possible exceptions of Thomas and William really struggled the first year or two
Even Thomas (don't recall hearing about Williams) struggled at first and some were calling him a wasted pick. Who has really shined out of the gate? Anyone?
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
I hereby order the Houston Texans to trade Clowney for Williams
In the last few days, I've searched out, read and listened to as many local talking heads as I could .... to determine if Redskins really did turn down a 1st rd pick for Williams. While searching. I've found that the vast majority, would not entertain the notion of trading Clowney for Williams. Age discrepancy, and draft selection point are two of the more common points. To me, that's far to little and menial to be concerned over. Each player is unhappy where he is. They're both excellent players and would be a value, if happy and healthy, where they are. As I see it, we have 2 compelling reasons to consider .... 1) the health of DW4 .... 2) the obvious reluctance of O'Brien to invest top draft picks on offensive linemen. I say swap 'em. The fear of making a mistake, causes many to freeze .... not good .... see our most recent draft !
badboy
Hall of Fame
I agree however I would wait until after the last preseason game to make that trade. 1 I want to see how Roderick Johnson develops 2 see if Williams can be had with a another package 3. leaving Clowney for a separate trade.
Defensive players continue to go down making Clowney more valuable. Tonight it was a middle linebacker for Detroit. I like cornerback Darius Slay but doubt Detroit would trade him for Clowney. Could we get Slay and a second round pick for JD and Dylan Cole? Would you do that?
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
No. I like our safetys. I want ol in return.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Uh where did I mention safeties?
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
What position does slay play?
badboy
Hall of Fame
Uh where did I mention safeties?
Starting cornerback as I posted. I'm ok with our safeties also.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Maybe running off a handful of draft projections that had him as a safety. My mistake. Still want ol in return.
Man, I don't know .... I like him a lot. I really liked Covington a lot, and they let him go. There are certain guys that are just good for the team. I felt that way about Kareem Jackson, too !
Preseason.
Roderick Johnson may look like an All-Pro when he's playing DEs pacing themselves for the regular season, or coaches who promised not to blitz.
But when the regular season starts he may have ran out of gas after "earning" the starting job & accomplishing his career goal.
We're going to be relying on what Mike Devlin feels in his gut & I don't think that's worked out well for us in the past.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Roll dem bones
delete
redskins fan. I came here because your team gets mentioned a lot by washington dc area beat writers as a potential trade partner. So, my thoughts from redskins perspective:
1. If I were you, I'd go with the guys you have. You drafted them for a reason, they are young, they are on rookie contracts, go with them.
2. If you really wanted Trent Williams, the price is a 1st round pick, minimum. Not a 2nd. a 2nd won't get it done. they are perfectly intent in having williams sit and not play at all before they get their asking price for a premium player at a premium position, the 3rd(?) most important position in Pro Football, Left Tackle.
3. Is Trent really that good? Yes, he's one of the best ever linemen in Washington, is still in his prime, had maybe his best season last year, and needs just a couple of more years (2-3) to solidify Hall of Fame status. you would see a MAJOR increase in your overall offense with him in your lineup. point blank, your QB is not getting touched *Whatsoever* by anyone rushing his blind side. Williams gives up maybe a sack or two a YEAR. Not a game. A YEAR.
4. If I were Washington, I would consider a 2nd round pick plus a young, talented player on your team who is on his rookie contact. an offensive lineman, a WR, a CB are positions of interest. Must be young and must be on rookie contract. No other player would be considered. And that's PLUS the 2nd rounder.
5. Washington has zero interest whatsoever in Jadeveon Clowney, they have no place to play him and don't want that salary either. So forget mentioning him, Washington has zero interest in him.
Summary:
If I were the Texans, let your rookies play. It worked for Indy last year, major improvement on their line.
1. If I were you, I'd go with the guys you have. You drafted them for a reason, they are young, they are on rookie contracts, go with them.
2. If you really wanted Trent Williams, the price is a 1st round pick, minimum. Not a 2nd. a 2nd won't get it done. they are perfectly intent in having williams sit and not play at all before they get their asking price for a premium player at a premium position, the 3rd(?) most important position in Pro Football, Left Tackle.
3. Is Trent really that good? Yes, he's one of the best ever linemen in Washington, is still in his prime, had maybe his best season last year, and needs just a couple of more years (2-3) to solidify Hall of Fame status. you would see a MAJOR increase in your overall offense with him in your lineup. point blank, your QB is not getting touched *Whatsoever* by anyone rushing his blind side. Williams gives up maybe a sack or two a YEAR. Not a game. A YEAR.
4. If I were Washington, I would consider a 2nd round pick plus a young, talented player on your team who is on his rookie contact. an offensive lineman, a WR, a CB are positions of interest. Must be young and must be on rookie contract. No other player would be considered. And that's PLUS the 2nd rounder.
5. Washington has zero interest whatsoever in Jadeveon Clowney, they have no place to play him and don't want that salary either. So forget mentioning him, Washington has zero interest in him.
Summary:
If I were the Texans, let your rookies play. It worked for Indy last year, major improvement on their line.
Max
Veteran
From the Texans perspective, Bill O'Brien likes discontents about as much as fat kids like broccoli. He also believes he has magical powers to make chicken salad out of chicken skit w/ his own players so we're not even sure that he's aware that we need a LT. If JD isn't part of the discussion to somehow make a win for both teams out of losing situations, I think it's safe to say that talks aren't going to go anywhere.
yeah, as a former college football fan of penn state, i know all about bill o'brien. and I know a lot of you guys are tired of him and his dimple chin. i'm surprised he's lasted there this long.
having watched every snap of every game trent williams has ever played, what i'll say about him is that he's not a discontent. he's a really good dude actually. his pot smoking was mostly in his first year or 2 in the league, although he had one relapse a year or two ago. but other than his love of ganja, he really is a model employee. honestly. as a player, he's about as good as it gets at LT and will make any team's offensive line infinitely better. he's not average, he's not mediocre, he's not declining, he's not just 'good', he is phenominal, a generational talent at one of the game's most important positions and i say that about no redskins usually. washington will suck with him or without him, so they might as well be without him at this point.
But Clowney unfortunately has no value whatsoever to washington. washington is a 3-4.
* their LE is Iannodois who they just resigned this offseason. he has 13 sacks in his last 19 games. as a 3-4 linemen. he's obviously entrenched as a starter.
* their RE is Jonathan Allen, their 1st round pick 2 years ago, and a team leader who is the guy who gets all the double teams up front. He might be their best overally young player right now.
* Their LOLB is Ryan Kerrigan, who has 2 years remaining on his deal, gets paid 14 mill a year and is a good player for them. Their not going to bring in CLowney and bench Kerrigan and have 30 million tied up at LOLB. Not gonna happen, obviously.
* And their ROLB is this years 1st rounder, Montez Sweat. they have an excellent backup at OLB too. So there just isnt a need or a desire whatsoever for Clowney in Washington.
Looks like no deal for washington-houston then.
having watched every snap of every game trent williams has ever played, what i'll say about him is that he's not a discontent. he's a really good dude actually. his pot smoking was mostly in his first year or 2 in the league, although he had one relapse a year or two ago. but other than his love of ganja, he really is a model employee. honestly. as a player, he's about as good as it gets at LT and will make any team's offensive line infinitely better. he's not average, he's not mediocre, he's not declining, he's not just 'good', he is phenominal, a generational talent at one of the game's most important positions and i say that about no redskins usually. washington will suck with him or without him, so they might as well be without him at this point.
But Clowney unfortunately has no value whatsoever to washington. washington is a 3-4.
* their LE is Iannodois who they just resigned this offseason. he has 13 sacks in his last 19 games. as a 3-4 linemen. he's obviously entrenched as a starter.
* their RE is Jonathan Allen, their 1st round pick 2 years ago, and a team leader who is the guy who gets all the double teams up front. He might be their best overally young player right now.
* Their LOLB is Ryan Kerrigan, who has 2 years remaining on his deal, gets paid 14 mill a year and is a good player for them. Their not going to bring in CLowney and bench Kerrigan and have 30 million tied up at LOLB. Not gonna happen, obviously.
* And their ROLB is this years 1st rounder, Montez Sweat. they have an excellent backup at OLB too. So there just isnt a need or a desire whatsoever for Clowney in Washington.
Looks like no deal for washington-houston then.