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Is Tom Savage A Long Term Option?

Thorn said:
Maybe Savage will be "The One", maybe he needs more time, maybe I need more chances to watch what comes out of the south end of a north bound cow labeled Houston football. Except for one or two seasons when "good" Schaub was playing this team hasn't even come close to being playoff caliber.

The one good thing I'll say about all this, is for such an obviously lack of talent on the O line, the fact we've actually won 9 games is coming from coaching, 'cause it sure aint' coming from the talent. If anything, we've been to hard on the coaches; good to great receivers, good tight ends, decent to good running backs, mediocre or (mostly) less QBs, and a fucked up turd pie for an O line.
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Assuming Nick Martin comes out next year and plays good football and we draft another good T, the line should be a whole lot better.
What I would like to see is a real game breaker speedster/ankle breaker to play special teams and rotate into the RB corp.
That would help us quite a bit. He wouldn't have to be Gayle Sayers, but if he could help us win 1-2 more games a season, we will be perrennial contenders. With adequate QB play of course.
 
Texansphan said:
Assuming Nick Martin comes out next year and plays good football and we draft another good T, the line should be a whole lot better.
What I would like to see is a real game breaker speedster/ankle breaker to play special teams and rotate into the RB corp.
That would help us quite a bit. He wouldn't have to be Gayle Sayers, but if he could help us win 1-2 more games a season, we will be perrennial contenders. With adequate QB play of course.
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Have you seenAllen's play?

He stinks too.

Ervin is supposed to be the guy you're describing. I want a better backup to take part of the load off of Miller.
 
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Texansphan said:
Assuming Nick Martin comes out next year and plays good football and we draft another good T, the line should be a whole lot better.
What I would like to see is a real game breaker speedster/ankle breaker to play special teams and rotate into the RB corp.
That would help us quite a bit. He wouldn't have to be Gayle Sayers, but if he could help us win 1-2 more games a season, we will be perrennial contenders. With adequate QB play of course.
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We were supposed to have added a few of those this past off season
 
What we need is for one quality OT or OG in FA and the other high in the draft. And we need a power back that can be a bell cow. We need a power running game that can pickup tough yards. If we can add just that to this team, we can be really good.
 
JB said:
We were supposed to have added a few of those this past off season
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You could make a better argument that the Texans have too many guys who could help on special teams...might be too light in the ace...speed guys...Hunt and Ervin are the exact player described above. Fuller and Wendel Williams the matching WR set, and Mumph and Braxton are quicker than fast slot guys who can return kicks with not enough experience at WR. Raw speed and quickness are good, but actual football skill with a hair less (ie a step) pure speed is better, imo.

In fact, I am talking (well typing) myself into the Texans need at least one full sized Wr (not named Hopkins) and a full sized RB (not named Lamar Miller)...they need OL worse, while I am in the player store, get me an extra 6'3, 6'4 Wr and another 215-220 RB.
 
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I had high hopes for Ervin but he has not impressed.
Hunt added some spark but he seems like he has come back to the pack a bit too.
Maybe he can get fired up a bit more but I do agree we need to draft a T in the first round and with the addition of Nick Martin the line should be greatly improved.
I hate it we lost Brooks, but that is water under the bridge - perhaps we can try for a decent G in FA.
 
Thorn said:
Maybe Savage will be "The One", maybe he needs more time, maybe I need more chances to watch what comes out of the south end of a north bound cow labeled Houston football. Except for one or two seasons when "good" Schaub was playing this team hasn't even come close to being playoff caliber.

The one good thing I'll say about all this, is for such an obviously lack of talent on the O line, the fact we've actually won 9 games is coming from coaching, 'cause it sure aint' coming from the talent. If anything, we've been to hard on the coaches; good to great receivers, good tight ends, decent to good running backs, mediocre or (mostly) less QBs, and a fucked up turd pie for an O line.
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You just insulted turd pies everywhere.
 
Thorn said:
Maybe Savage will be "The One", maybe he needs more time, maybe I need more chances to watch what comes out of the south end of a north bound cow labeled Houston football. Except for one or two seasons when "good" Schaub was playing this team hasn't even come close to being playoff caliber.

The one good thing I'll say about all this, is for such an obviously lack of talent on the O line, the fact we've actually won 9 games is coming from coaching, 'cause it sure aint' coming from the talent. If anything, we've been to hard on the coaches; good to great receivers, good tight ends, decent to good running backs, mediocre or (mostly) less QBs, and a fucked up turd pie for an O line.
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Some of the blame for the "lack of talent on the O-line" you talk about has to be put at the feet of one coach, Bill O'Brien, IMO. To draft only 2 O-linemen (XSF & Martin) in the last 3 drafts is very negligent if you ask me, especially when you let 2 starters (Jones & Brooks) go to FA and only pick up Allen and Bergstrom in FA! Not exactly an even trade. Now, having said all this, I don't know how much of the blame to place on BOB because I don't know how much control he has over the Draft with Rick. But, whether it's a low percentage (5 to 10%) or a high percentage (90 to 95%) of control, he still needs to shoulder some of the blame! JMO.
 
Thorsson said:
It seems the same people getting excited about Savage are the same ones who got excited about signing Osweiler for $80 million. The fact is, Savage could only produce 12 points at home against a depleted Bengals team that the Browns scored 17 on! I'm calling it right here: Savage is not the answer.

Yes, Savage is a much better option than the most overpaid QB in NFL history, but c'mon, in 7 NFL quarters he hasn't thrown a single TD and has lived off the spoils of his team's stellar defense. Savage would be getting torn a new one today if not for the Bengals' pathetic kicker missing an easy field goal to end the game.
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I am not so sure Brock Osweiler sucks as much as feeling that no matter who Qbs our team BO'b and GG will keep them from ever excelling or being as good as they could be. While statistically TS is playing somewhat better than BO it is not enough better to give me any confidence. I mean look at the points scored under TS and you can see that production wise there is not much difference between TS and BO. I do not put that on TS no more than I put the struggles of BO on Brock. Brock was rumored to have had words with coach BO'b over how he was being used and if that is the case than at least where BO is concerned he rarely felt comfortable in BO'bs system and or play calling. TS at least has had more time learning and becoming accustomed to coach BO'b and his way of running the offense. Not that that will give him much of a leg up on BO but it helps. Still as long as the offense keeps being used in the way it has we can never truly know what he have from any of our Qb's.

BO has been s***y there is not doubt and excuses are for s**t but there does appear to be some valid reasons why BO is worse than TS.

I would say BO should have stayed in Denver but the reality is that under Gary Kubiak he would be no better. Sometimes the offensive coordinator/coordinators of a team have to be taken into account in regards to how their Qb's perform.
 
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Insideop said:
Some of the blame for the "lack of talent on the O-line" you talk about has to be put at the feet of one coach, Bill O'Brien, IMO. To draft only 2 O-linemen (XSF & Martin) in the last 3 drafts is very negligent if you ask me, especially when you let 2 starters (Jones & Brooks) go to FA and only pick up Allen and Bergstrom in FA! Not exactly an even trade. Now, having said all this, I don't know how much of the blame to place on BOB because I don't know how much control he has over the Draft with Rick. But, whether it's a low percentage (5 to 10%) or a high percentage (90 to 95%) of control, he still needs to shoulder some of the blame! JMO.
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It's really a case of just not putting the time in to keep the line stout. Like you said, two players drafted and that's it? Three years and and two offensive linemen? Our OL wasn't that good or deep enough to withstand that kind of neglect.
 
Wolfiegrrl said:
Bad line + Bad Play calling = Crap play at QB. Its a mathematical fact.
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This is so true but with even the slightest bit of decent play calling on offense it would cover up some of the issues with the O-line. Yes the O-line has been awful at times this year but there have been other times when the O-line held up and did a solid job. On those occasions it did not seem to help our offense produce much better.

The most talented teams do not always win the title, there are many times that the best coached teams have an edge. I can imagine how good we could be even with just solid if not spectacular play at Qb.

TS needs more time to mature as a Qb. I can not take this slight sample size and declare him the answer any more than I can call him a bum. I am just afraid we will never know what we have while BO'b and GG collectively call all the offensive plays and stunts the growth of our Qb's and our young wide outs.
 
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Texansphan said:
I had high hopes for Ervin but he has not impressed.
Hunt added some spark but he seems like he has come back to the pack a bit too.
Maybe he can get fired up a bit more but I do agree we need to draft a T in the first round and with the addition of Nick Martin the line should be greatly improved.
I hate it we lost Brooks, but that is water under the bridge - perhaps we can try for a decent G in FA.
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I would not lament Brooks' loss. Brooks has been experiencing significant medical problems since his last year with the Texans. He has not been the force he was in very isolated periods of his earlier years and his performance has decreased over time. He has suffered chronically from severe debilitating peptic ulcer disease requiring several hospitalizations. Recently, he has been diagnosed as severe anxiety disorder which some have attributed as the source of his ongoing ulcer situation. Stress from anxiety has been shown to possibly be a contributor to making established ulcer disease worse. However, the only proven independent stress etiology refers to the stress produced by PHYSICAL sources such as severe bodily injuries, burns and surgery. Most ulcers are actually caused by a bacterium which in some individuals can be almost impossible to eradicate without recurrence, despite aggressive long-term multi-antibiotic regimens. Brooks' underlying ulcer disease has evidently not been able to be controlled..........and now he has the additive of adult-onset anxiety reactions which tend to be progressive........a very difficult entity in itself to successfully treat.
 
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ObsiWan said:
You just insulted turd pies everywhere.
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I have seen the worst of the worst of offensive lines and while this one leaves much to be desired I can also say that the Qb's struggles are not as much on the line as it seems. I see a cross between Qb's who have been far from good and a head coach who is partially to blame for not untilizing them in a way that serves them best and somewhat covers up the O-line weaknesses. Enough that our offense should not be near as inept as it has been.

Running consistently up the gut where the offense seems incapable of opening solid holes for our backs sure does not help.
 
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Hervoyel said:
It's really a case of just not putting the time in to keep the line stout. Like you said, two players drafted and that's it? Three years and and two offensive linemen? Our OL wasn't that good or deep enough to withstand that kind of neglect.
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Using two 2nd round picks on the interior OL sounds pretty good to me, especially considering we also brought in three guards through FA; Aboushi, Allen, & Bergstrum. & Clark at OT.

Then we brought in Mancz & Lamb.

Biggest issue I have is that Allen has played so much when Aboushi has seemed the better option.
 
Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock 5h5 hours ago

Tom Savage has thrown the most pass attempts in a single season under Bill O'Brien before tossing his 1st INT:



C0n0-BfVEAA4-84.jpg:large
 
thunderkyss said:
Using two 2nd round picks on the interior OL sounds pretty good to me, especially considering we also brought in three guards through FA; Aboushi, Allen, & Bergstrum. & Clark at OT.

Then we brought in Mancz & Lamb.

Biggest issue I have is that Allen has played so much when Aboushi has seemed the better option.
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I agree the organization has made the effort to address the OL.

But the situation is similar to the QB position in that the organization has brought in the players hoping to find the one and there is still disenchantment with the effort on this board and the belief we need to draft a QB.

We need to invest high round/top half draft picks to upgrade the quality we need at the OL positions.
 
infantrycak said:
Isn't "in a single season" superfluous? We've never had the same QB from one season to the next under OB.
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Ya, but it allows Savage to be the leader of a bunch of do-nothing QBs in Braddock's made-up stat considering he's already on the list for tossing a pick in just 19 attempts in a different 'single season'.

But hey, he's on top. Of that group. For whatever that's worth.
 
Mollywhopper said:
Ya, but it allows Savage to be the leader of a bunch of do-nothing QBs in Braddock's made-up stat considering he's already on the list for tossing a pick in just 19 attempts in a different 'single season'.

But hey, he's on top. Of that group. For whatever that's worth.
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Cleanest dirty shirt so far....
 
Unless we can sign a QB like Rivers, I think the current QB trio is on the team next year. Brocks contract is too difficult to unload, and Savage and Weeden are your number one and two. I wouldn't draft a QB in these year unless a great one drops and it's too good to pass up. From what I have read next year is a good QB class and we should draft one then in a high round. And if Savage implodes, and Brock is Brock, we should have a nice pick. But this coach has a way of pulling 8-8 and better seasons out of his butt so you never know.
 
I'm encouraged by what I've been seeing from Savage.
I believe that he gives the Texans the best chance to compete.

For a QB without much time in live action, he shows fair-to-good potential.
No, I don't think the game is too fast for him, but sure, I'd like for him to operate a little faster.

He's doing some of the things I had wanted from Osweiler,
nothing extraordinaire yet, but enough such that the QB position is not a liability.
This team can compete that way.
 
thunderkyss said:
Using two 2nd round picks on the interior OL sounds pretty good to me, especially considering we also brought in three guards through FA; Aboushi, Allen, & Bergstrum. & Clark at OT.

Then we brought in Mancz & Lamb.

Biggest issue I have is that Allen has played so much when Aboushi has seemed the better option.
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The FA's we've signed have been pretty abysmal since O'Brien got here. Aboushi has looked good at times but Allen is a hot mess Mancz sucks and against that Tony Bergstrom can't even get on the field. Clark isn't the solution to losing Newton and to be honest I don't even know who Lamb is and I was paying attention. By that I mean I know we have a player on our team with the last name of Lamb but I don't even know what position the man plays much less how well he plays it.

In each of these drafts there should have been a mid to later round developmental guy IMO.
 
Hervoyel said:
The FA's we've signed have been pretty abysmal since O'Brien got here. Aboushi has looked good at times but Allen is a hot mess Mancz sucks and against that Tony Bergstrom can't even get on the field. Clark isn't the solution to losing Newton and to be honest I don't even know who Lamb is and I was paying attention. By that I mean I know we have a player on our team with the last name of Lamb but I don't even know what position the man plays much less how well he plays it.

In each of these drafts there should have been a mid to later round developmental guy IMO.
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Lamm and Mancz were both Undrafted FA's the Texans got after the Draft 2 years ago. Kendall Lamm is an OT from Appalachian St. and the Texans have been using him quite a bit to fill in at OT and also when they go to 6 O-linemen packages which they've done a few times this year. As for Mancz, I don't think he "sucks" but I knew he was put into a bad situation when Martin went down where he was basically given the job with no Pro experience. He was on IR all of his Rookie year so this has been basically his Rookie year. I know he's struggled, especially at the beginning of the season, but most of the things I've seen watching the games and read from the coaches say he is holding his own and improving. What they do with him next year when Martin comes back I don't know. But, at the very least they will have an experienced backup Center.

Aboushi is a serviceable backup but I agree with you about Allen being a "hot mess" along with Bergstrom and Clark! They just have to get a RT and RG in the next Draft. Unfortunately for them, it's supposed to be a bad year for O-linemen, so they better get them early in the Draft!
 
thunderkyss said:
Using two 2nd round picks on the interior OL sounds pretty good to me, especially considering we also brought in three guards through FA; Aboushi, Allen, & Bergstrum. & Clark at OT.

Then we brought in Mancz & Lamb.

Biggest issue I have is that Allen has played so much when Aboushi has seemed the better option.
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So PFF says this about the Tackles Cincy drafted in the 2015 draft...

Cincinnati used its first two draft picks in 2015 on offensive tackles Cedric Ogbuehi and Jake Fisher, and both players have been disappointments to this point. Ogbuehi and Fisher were the starting offensive tackles in this game, and each earned below-average grades for both pass protection (two sacks, one hurry allowed by Ogbuehi; one sack and four hurries allowed by Fisher) and run blocking.
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Should we have drafted one of them to solve our OL problem?
 
thunderkyss said:
So PFF says this about the Tackles Cincy drafted in the 2015 draft...

Should we have drafted one of them to solve our OL problem?
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I don't know. Maybe one of them? Who's coaching Cincinnati's OL these days? Maybe they fit better here, maybe they don't. Who really knows. They're second year pros who were I believe pressed into starting due to injuries but playing young OT's frequently leads to some chaos and protection issues. We all know that.

Will either of them be better than an aging Duane Brown or Derrick Newton (prior to his knee injury)? That's the real question. Were we thrilled with Sua-Filo last year? That was his second year. Doesn't mean he won't get it together going forward. He's improving if slowly.

Taking one of these guys would have meant taking a pass on either Kevin Johnson or Bernardrick McKinney. We got players at these spots in the draft and I'm not unhappy with either of them but with Kareem Jackson and Jonathan Joseph back there along with Bouye coming along maybe help on the OL would have been preferable to padding the secondary. We've collectively bitched about Newton for years well before O'Brien came to town. There was always something with Newton going on and then he had one good contract year where he seemed to put it all together and after that, same old Newton. Since we drafted him we added Nick Mondek (late round swing and a miss), Brennan Williams (I think they really hoped he'd replace Newton but injuries and the fact that he was a weirdo kind of got in the way), and of course that same year David Quessenberry (Cancer), That RT spot has been snake bit since Winston departed.
 
Hervoyel said:
The FA's we've signed have been pretty abysmal since O'Brien got here. Aboushi has looked good at times but Allen is a hot mess Mancz sucks and against that Tony Bergstrom can't even get on the field. Clark isn't the solution to losing Newton and to be honest I don't even know who Lamb is and I was paying attention. By that I mean I know we have a player on our team with the last name of Lamb but I don't even know what position the man plays much less how well he plays it.

In each of these drafts there should have been a mid to later round developmental guy IMO.
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I think Mancz has done better than I thought he would. (Avg, good backup, with a chance to get better.) The rest of this post is spot on.

The OL class isn't as bad as scouts are making it out to be. There isn't a Stud all pro guy.

As far as drafting OL. Through the study I've done so far (very little) the OG's appear to be better Day 1 type starters. Nelson/Feeney/Lamp/Johnson.

OT day 1 type starters that will go in the 1st rd Robinson/Ramcyck/Bolles. If it were me I would trade up like they did last yr after one of these guys fell. All of these guys have with the Texans OL is currently missing. (Mean streak, and good feet.) I really like Bolles.

Then there are a bunch of developmental guys who IMHO would be better than the crap that is Clark/Allen. OT's Bisnowaty/Moton/McDermott/Skipper.

OG's, Siragusa/Pyke/Harlow (Who I really like.)

Bottom line for me is they need to to protect Savage so that another Carr situation doesn't happen. Drafting 2-3 of these guys and hopefully picking up a better FA than the crap they signed last yr (Bergstrom/Allen) would be a good start at protecting Savage.
 
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Would Allen's play improve if we had a competent OT next to him? Didn't he look pretty good when he was in KC? Just asking because I don't know. Do we really need an OG and OT or just an OT (or two because of Brown's age/injury). Is Allen nothing more than depth like Bergstrom? When Martin comes back and we have Mancz and Aboushi as OG/C depth if we didn't have to add another OG in draft/FA it would be great.
 
JB said:
Would Allen's play improve if we had a competent OT next to him? Didn't he look pretty good when he was in KC? Just asking because I don't know. Do we really need an OG and OT or just an OT (or two because of Brown's age/injury). Is Allen nothing more than depth like Bergstrom? When Martin comes back and we have Mancz and Aboushi as OG/C depth if we didn't have to add another OG in draft/FA it would be great.
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I believe Allen is playing hurt and then got a concussion on top of that.

I just want the OL to be fixed. Drafting say Bolles in rd 1 and say Nelson in rd 2 would fix that. I also would draft a developmental type OT in rd. 4-5 (Harlow) to replace Clark as the swing OT guy.

The other guys that you listed currently on the Texans are JAGS. Mancz is the one that I would keep out of that group. He has the most potential to improve.
 
thunderkyss said:
& we can't ignore defense again.
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What exactly does the defense need?

On the DL we have Watt coming back (please), Reader is a beast and Wilfork's heir apparent I think. We could use a guy to put on the other side unless we're going to keep Clowney there. I think he'll be going back and forth between OLB and DE his entire career. Covington just isn't anything special. LB's are also not an empty cupboard situation. McKinney is a pretty nice ILB and Cushing is capable if not spectacular at this point after the injuries. The secondary needs help at safety but we have tons of the depth at CB.

I'd argue that we could actually get away with mostly ignoring the defense again this one time. Like snatch up a safety or a DE if we see one we can't pass up on but otherwise get that damn OL stocked up properly.

Of course some of that can happen in free agency if the team can maybe not sign anymore "shopping carts" from other teams.
 
True.

I'm hoping Kj Dillon can develop into that safety we need. Demps & Hal are aiight... but we need a play maker there & I don't think they fill the bill.

Sure, I'm happy with Cush, but I wouldn't mind an upgrade there as well. Especially if we've seen the best from Peters & Bullough already.
 
thunderkyss said:
True.

I'm hoping Kj Dillon can develop into that safety we need. Demps & Hal are aiight... but we need a play maker there & I don't think they fill the bill.

Sure, I'm happy with Cush, but I wouldn't mind an upgrade there as well. Especially if we've seen the best from Peters & Bullough already.
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I love having Demps on the team but he's the guy you feel lucky to have behind the guy you have starting.

Not the guy you want starting.

I like Cushing a lot but another guy to push him (and pass him if he could) would be nice. I really hoped Bullough would respond to being coached up and become like a bargain (old) Cushing but he's really just a bargain (current) Cushing and he just never came around to making the kind of decisions/taking the angles you want a player there to be making. He's depth and special teams at this level and nothing more. Pity, I hoped we had gotten away with something by signing him.
 
When Tom Savage leads the Houston Texans to Super Bowl 51 and the Texans win their first NFL Championship, what type of major pay raise can we give him in the off-season? We're paying too much to Brock Osweiler. We can't cut him until after the 2017 season. Savage has to be paid as a Super Bowl champion!
 
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