Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍

Mayock re Texans look at QBs in the Combine

DocBar said:
RGIII's trade is the benchmark now. None of those trades you mention are comparable in any way other than the position played. Elway and Eli also forced a trade by saying they wouldn't play for the team that drafted them, so the drafting team's hand was forced; get something or get nothing. All in all, not a good argument for trading into the top three of the 2016 draft.

Oh yeah, Young went 1.1 in the supplemental draft...:D
Click to expand...

And not a good argument for not trading up into the top three in the 2016 draft
 
JB said:
that's more about who was traded for than trading in itself. Hindsight is so much easier
Click to expand...
Very true about hindsight, but several of those players were highly touted and viewed as the #1 prospect in the draft. Griffin, Manzeil, J. Russell come to mind. Freeman was rated as the 3rd best QB out of 114.

I see it as ~20% chance of succeeding at trading up. I don't care what anyone thinks of Goff or Wentz. They haven't played a single snap in the NFL and the pressure on them to produce is magnified by the price tag. You pay for aBugatti, you better damned well get a Bugatti and not a Porsche. If they don't perform like a Bugatti, in short order, the media swarm is overwhelming, as is the fanbase response. It all goes downhill from there.

This years #1 and next years #1 (at the same draft position as this year's) is almost enough to get the Texans to the #6 spot and very likely take the 2nd QB in the draft. Throw in a a 3rd round 2016 pick and all of the sudden, you have your QB without mortgaging the farm with 3 1st round picks and multiple picks from other rounds.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: JB
DocBar said:
Very true about hindsight, but several of those players were highly touted and viewed as the #1 prospect in the draft. Griffin, Manzeil, J. Russell come to mind. Freeman was rated as the 3rd best QB out of 114.

I see it as ~20% chance of succeeding at trading up. I don't care what anyone thinks of Goff or Wentz. They haven't played a single snap in the NFL and the pressure on them to produce is magnified by the price tag. You pay for aBugatti, you better damned well get a Bugatti and not a Porsche. If they don't perform like a Bugatti, in short order, the media swarm is overwhelming, as is the fanbase response. It all goes downhill from there.

This years #1 and next years #1 (at the same draft position as this year's) is almost enough to get the Texans to the #6 spot and very likely take the 2nd QB in the draft. Throw in a a 3rd round 2016 pick and all of the sudden, you have your QB without mortgaging the farm with 3 1st round picks and multiple picks from other rounds.
Click to expand...

If we could get Goff or Wentz for this at #6 I would be very happy with it. But you better be damn sure they're gonna be there before you think about it.

I worry that if we wait past #3 we won't have a chance at either.
 
Shishkabob said:
If he is the guy they want Im fine with it.
Click to expand...

MistaRed said:
If they take Lynch that's fine. I'm not a big fan of his but if that's who they choose to groom, so be it.
Click to expand...

Well, that's the question. We don't know who they are targeting.

If we trade up to get him, is that because he was the one we wanted, or was he the only one we could afford?

If you think we took him because he was all we could afford, how do you feel about taking a guy just because... ?

I mean no one here is talking about Lynch. We want Goff, or we want Wentz...
 
Here is an excellent article on two "can't miss" prospects
JB said:
If we could get Goff or Wentz for this at #6 I would be very happy with it. But you better be damn sure they're gonna be there before you think about it.

I worry that if we wait past #3 we won't have a chance at either.
Click to expand...
Which team do you consider a threat to draft a QB after Cleveland? I only see two: San Diego and Dallas. Rivers had a strong 2015, so I don't see them using 1.3 on a QB when defense is their Achille's Heel and Jerruh is on record as seeing Homo as the Dallas QB for the next 4-5 years. They also have more glaring issues at 1.4. With the improvement that Bortles has shown, there's no way in hell Jax is taking a QB. Flacco is still well in his prime and they also need help in other areas, so they're out. #6 is the spot I'd like to target. I might even sweeten the deal a bit in, in case SF gets wind of the Texans trading up ahead of them. Regardless, it's a much more Texan's friendly deal than the RGIII one and it nets the Texan's one of the top two picks at QB.

As an aside, I'm going to agree with TK and like Cook a lot. I've been watching a good bit of film on him and I'd put him very close to Goff as far as NFL ready. Leadership and "good teammate" issues are his only real negatives that I see. I see Wentz as more of a developmental player. He's not NFL ready, but extremely talented.
 
DocBar said:
Here is an excellent article on two "can't miss" prospects

Which team do you consider a threat to draft a QB after Cleveland? I only see two: San Diego and Dallas. Rivers had a strong 2015, so I don't see them using 1.3 on a QB when defense is their Achille's Heel and Jerruh is on record as seeing Homo as the Dallas QB for the next 4-5 years. They also have more glaring issues at 1.4. With the improvement that Bortles has shown, there's no way in hell Jax is taking a QB. Flacco is still well in his prime and they also need help in other areas, so they're out. #6 is the spot I'd like to target. I might even sweeten the deal a bit in, in case SF gets wind of the Texans trading up ahead of them. Regardless, it's a much more Texan's friendly deal than the RGIII one and it nets the Texan's one of the top two picks at QB.

As an aside, I'm going to agree with TK and like Cook a lot. I've been watching a good bit of film on him and I'd put him very close to Goff as far as NFL ready. Leadership and "good teammate" issues are his only real negatives that I see. I see Wentz as more of a developmental player. He's not NFL ready, but extremely talented.
Click to expand...

My concern is that someone else trades with SD. I don't think it likely that anyone will move to #1, so if Goff or Wentz makes it past #3 great. But if you don't and someone else does....
 
thunderkyss said:
So Mariota would have been a bust if a team fell in love & traded up to get him. But since the Titans took him with their pick, he'll likely be a quality starter?


That makes sense.
Click to expand...
I didn't say that, or even allude to it. Would Bortles be a bust if the Texans had drafted him at 1.1? No. The Titan's and Texan's wouldn't have given anything up to get those players. The stars aligned and they drafted the player where they had him slotted.

There's a lot to think about, in regards to aligned star's, when drafting QB's.
 
JB said:
My concern is that someone else trades with SD. I don't think it likely that anyone will move to #1, so if Goff or Wentz makes it past #3 great. But if you don't and someone else does....
Click to expand...
That could very well happen, but that's where pot sweetening comes into play. The important part, to me, is having a line drawn in the sand and standing firm at that line. Don't cripple the team because you fell in love with a draft prospect.
 
DocBar said:
That could very well happen, but that's where pot sweetening comes into play. The important part, to me, is having a line drawn in the sand and standing firm at that line. Don't cripple the team because you fell in love with a draft prospect.
Click to expand...

I certainly don't want to cripple the team. But you don't have to in order to move up. Yeah it'll cost a lot to move to #3, and I'd much rather get it done at #6, but I want it done. If you're completely confidant that one of the two will be there then you can wait. But if you're worried that they won't be then you do what you can. I think that having to go yet another year without a quality QB will set this franchise back much more than just another year or two ala Cleveland and Cinci between Esiason and Dalton
 
JB said:
I certainly don't want to cripple the team. But you don't have to in order to move up. Yeah it'll cost a lot to move to #3, and I'd much rather get it done at #6, but I want it done. If you're completely confidant that one of the two will be there then you can wait. But if you're worried that they won't be then you do what you can. I think that having to go yet another year without a quality QB will set this franchise back much more than just another year or two ala Cleveland and Cinci between Esiason and Dalton
Click to expand...
I don't trust rookies in any way, shape or form. Until they produce at the NFL level, I see every single draft pick as a huge question mark. I also question the draft ranking process, especially at QB. Intangibles are the primary key at this position. The physical traits are pretty easy to diagnose : foot work, release, throwing motion. Ability to read and diagnose a defense (field vision), football intelligence, leadership, dedication and ability to lift the players around you are much harder to predict at the NFL level.
 
DocBar said:
I don't trust rookies in any way, shape or form. Until they produce at the NFL level, I see every single draft pick as a huge question mark. I also question the draft ranking process, especially at QB. Intangibles are the primary key at this position. The physical traits are pretty easy to diagnose : foot work, release, throwing motion. Ability to read and diagnose a defense (field vision), football intelligence, leadership, dedication and ability to lift the players around you are much harder to predict at the NFL level.
Click to expand...

Well sure every draft pick is a huge ? mark. That goes for every position not just qb. You have to do your homework to make sure you draft a JJ and not a TJ.
 
DocBar said:
I didn't say that, or even allude to it. Would Bortles be a bust if the Texans had drafted him at 1.1? No. The Titan's and Texan's wouldn't have given anything up to get those players. The stars aligned and they drafted the player where they had him slotted.

There's a lot to think about, in regards to aligned star's, when drafting QB's.
Click to expand...

So then it doesn't matter if you trade up or not. The QB is the same prospect.

I'm with you inasmuch as I wouldn't trade up for Goff or Wentz. I have every reason to believe my QB will be available at 22. But if things were different. If the feeling was Cook would be gone with the 2nd pick, I'm going to put together a deal to get him at #1.

If I felt about Goff the way some here do, I would do the deal, go & get him. No price is too high for a franchise QB.

What I don't get, are these guys who say trade the farm for whoever is left. Surely they can't feel both guys are franchise QBs. It feels like gambling. Let's trade a fortune on the chance that Cleveland got it wrong... again. Now it is Cleveland & there is a good chance they'll get it wrong. But with our luck...
 
JB said:
Well sure every draft pick is a huge ? mark. That goes for every position not just qb. You have to do your homework to make sure you draft a JJ and not a TJ.
Click to expand...
And you don't hamstring the team by overpaying for an unknown entity. Regardless of what so-called "expert's" think of a prospect. Have your price, stick to it, change it within reason. That's all I ask in this situation. Too many people seem to be willing to give up the next eleventythreehundred 1st round picks to draft Goff/Wentz/Lynch/Cook, etc. They are emotionally attached to their player of choice.

Goff and Wentz haven't played a single snap against an NFL defense and not a single soul in this world knows, without a doubt, how they will perform against an NFL defense. Either one, or both, could be complete busts. There just isn't an accurate metric to judge the jump from college to the NFL for a draft pick.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ROO
DocBar said:
I also question the draft ranking process, especially at QB. Intangibles are the primary key at this position. The physical traits are pretty easy to diagnose : foot work, release, throwing motion. Ability to read and diagnose a defense (field vision), football intelligence, leadership, dedication and ability to lift the players around you are much harder to predict at the NFL level.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Philip Rivers has a funky release, Brett Favre always threw off his back foot, Brees is too short, & Peyton Manning Pats the ball.
 
thunderkyss said:
So then it doesn't matter if you trade up or not. The QB is the same prospect.

I'm with you inasmuch as I wouldn't trade up for Goff or Wentz. I have every reason to believe my QB will be available at 22. But if things were different. If the feeling was Cook would be gone with the 2nd pick, I'm going to put together a deal to get him at #1.

If I felt about Goff the way some here do, I would do the deal, go & get him. No price is too high for a franchise QB.

What I don't get, are these guys who say trade the farm for whoever is left. Surely they can't feel both guys are franchise QBs. It feels like gambling. Let's trade a fortune on the chance that Cleveland got it wrong... again. Now it is Cleveland & there is a good chance they'll get it wrong. But with our luck...
Click to expand...
We view things differently. I don't fall in love with a draft pick. There is no known metric that can gauge the jump from college to the NFL at the the QB position. I'll stick with my line in the sand and either accept the trade or not.
 
I love that Goff and Wentz have such small chance at success, but lets ride with the super developmental 4th rounder ... cuz odds.
 
Mollywhopper said:
I love that Goff and Wentz have such small chance at success, but lets ride with the super developmental 4th rounder ... cuz odds.
Click to expand...
Since you're targeting me without quoting me, I simply fall back on my previous posts.

If you disagree, please post a metric that ensures that either Goff or Wentz are 100% locks to be elite NFL QB's.

I'm trying to do the impossible and prove a negative. You're trying to prove a positive and have the numbers in your favor. The only thing I have in my favor is hind sight and I choose to use that. We disagree. Get over it.
 
DocBar said:
Since you're targeting me without quoting me, I simply fall back on my previous posts.

If you disagree, please post a metric that ensures that either Goff or Wentz are 100% locks to be elite NFL QB's.

I'm trying to do the impossible and prove a negative. You're trying to prove a positive and have the numbers in your favor. The only thing I have in my favor is hind sight and I choose to use that. We disagree. Get over it.
Click to expand...

I never said it's a 100% lock anyone is going to be an elite QB. Not sure where you even got a thing like that.
 
DocBar said:
And you don't hamstring the team by overpaying for an unknown entity. Regardless of what so-called "expert's" think of a prospect. Have your price, stick to it, change it within reason. That's all I ask in this situation. Too many people seem to be willing to give up the next eleventythreehundred 1st round picks to draft Goff/Wentz/Lynch/Cook, etc. They are emotionally attached to their player of choice.

Goff and Wentz haven't played a single snap against an NFL defense and not a single soul in this world knows, without a doubt, how they will perform against an NFL defense. Either one, or both, could be complete busts. There just isn't an accurate metric to judge the jump from college to the NFL for a draft pick.
Click to expand...

What is too high a price? What's too high for you may be acceptable to others. No rookie is a lock to be big in the NFL. Each team has to decide what player they want and what they're willing to do to get that player. Trading up isn't a bad thing if you're high on a player that you feel won't make it to your pick. It's a crap shoot but it doesn't have to be a bad gamble.
 
DocBar said:
OK. Show me you're resume on drafting NFL players.
Click to expand...

The f*ck?

I just made a statement that after watching Goff, Wentz, and Savage play that I'm surprised anyone would give better odds to Savage.

Is that a terrible statement that I need a certification to make?
 
JB said:
What is too high a price? What's too high for you may be acceptable to others. No rookie is a lock to be big in the NFL. Each team has to decide what player they want and what they're willing to do to get that player. Trading up isn't a bad thing if you're high on a player that you feel won't make it to your pick. It's a crap shoot but it doesn't have to be a bad gamble.
Click to expand...
I've repeatedly stated that the RGIII trade is too high for me. Trading into the top 5 or 6 is perfectly acceptable to me.
 
Mollywhopper said:
The f*ck?

I just made a statement that after watching Goff, Wentz, and Savage play that I'm surprised anyone would give better odds to Savage.

Is that a terrible statement that I need a certification to make?
Click to expand...
You stated that you like a prospect very much. I simply asked for the resume of a person making such a statement. What picks have you previously nailed? How accurate are you at identifying need VS. draft position? Are you making these calls for the 1st time?
 
JB said:
What is too high a price? What's too high for you may be acceptable to others. No rookie is a lock to be big in the NFL. Each team has to decide what player they want and what they're willing to do to get that player. Trading up isn't a bad thing if you're high on a player that you feel won't make it to your pick. It's a crap shoot but it doesn't have to be a bad gamble.
Click to expand...
The RGIII trade is entirely too much. I'm not against trading, it's just the price. Read my posts before posting such stuff.
 
DocBar said:
You stated that you like a prospect very much. I simply asked for the resume of a person making such a statement. What picks have you previously nailed? How accurate are you at identifying need VS. draft position? Are you making these calls for the 1st time?
Click to expand...

You asked if I didn't think a prospect was 100% then why would I trade for him, my answer was "because I like the prospect very much".

I've nailed a number of picks. I've missed my share as well. I'd say I have a pretty good overall track record. No point in going through all that on the internet though as there's no proof. I wouldn't bother asking you likewise because it's just silly.

Again though, I was talking in specifics about Goff, Wentz, and Savage.
 
DocBar said:
OK. Show me you're resume on drafting NFL players.
Click to expand...
Yes it does. Why do yo
Mollywhopper said:
Because I like the prospect very much.

My percentage on Goff or Wentz are much greater than Tom Savage.
Click to expand...
Yes it does. The differences between the QB's aren't that different.
bah007 said:
Lol why don't you post your resume of NFL trades that you've made before we take your word for it?
Click to expand...
Because I don't have one. I don't pretend to be a draft guru
 
Mollywhopper said:
You asked if I didn't think a prospect was 100% then why would I trade for him, my answer was "because I like the prospect very much".

I've nailed a number of picks. I've missed my share as well. I'd say I have a pretty good overall track record. No point in going through all that on the internet though as there's no proof. I wouldn't bother asking you likewise because it's just silly.

Again though, I was talking in specifics about Goff, Wentz, and Savage.
Click to expand...
One more time, I'll take Savage and two years as a pro over anyone in this draft.
 
DocBar said:
One more time, I'll take Savage and two years as a pro over anyone in this draft.
Click to expand...

Fair enough... many disagree because Savage has less time on the field in the last 2 years and little before that. You're willing to gamble on Savage, many would rather gamble on Goff or Wentz. It's not like we're talking trading up to take Hackenberg. Or even Lynch or Cook.
 
DocBar said:
Yes it does. Why do yo

Yes it does. The differences between the QB's aren't that different.

Because I don't have one. I don't pretend to be a draft guru
Click to expand...

You sure are very opinionated for someone who freely admits that they have no idea what they're talking about.

For the record, if you'd like to see my resume you can check my post history of evaluations leading up to previous drafts. It's pretty good.
 
bah007 said:
You sure are very opinionated for someone who freely admits that they have no idea what they're talking about.

For the record, if you'd like to see my resume you can check my post history of evaluations leading up to previous drafts. It's pretty good.
Click to expand...
Yes I am and ok.
 
DocBar said:
In which ways? What are you looking for and what do you see in these QB's?
Click to expand...

That Savage doesn't have or hasn't shown?

Poise to maneuver in the pocket or deliver the ball late in a dirty pocket, accuracy (this can't be emphasized enough), anticipating throws into windows, touch on varied types of throws, I've seen both Goff and Wentz operate their offense into pro concept routes that Savage may just be getting some kind of hang of, I've seen Goff work with subpar talent from sideline to sideline and keep his team competitive, I've seen Wentz lead his team in multiple 4th quarter performances, Wentz has legit athleticism better than Savage and Goff has sneaky athleticism likely better.

Now what have you seen Savage offer besides good arm strength that they don't?
 
Mollywhopper said:
That Savage doesn't have or hasn't shown?

Poise to maneuver in the pocket or deliver the ball late in a dirty pocket, accuracy (this can't be emphasized enough), anticipating throws into windows, touch on varied types of throws, I've seen both Goff and Wentz operate their offense into pro concept routes that Savage may just be getting some kind of hang of, I've seen Goff work with subpar talent from sideline to sideline and keep his team competitive, I've seen Wentz lead his team in multiple 4th quarter performances, Wentz has legit athleticism better than Savage and Goff has sneaky athleticism likely better.

Now what have you seen Savage offer besides good arm strength that they don't?
Click to expand...
You need to rewatch the 2015 preseason or change what you're looking for. Savage was markedly improved.
 
JB said:
Well sure every draft pick is a huge ? mark. That goes for every position not just qb. You have to do your homework to make sure you draft a JJ and not a TJ.
Click to expand...
The Texans have shown this ability exactly once.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top