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Chronicle: The Mallett/Hoyer Competition

First off, great post, I just want to add a couple of thoughts.

xtruroyaltyx said:
I'm not sure how you can judge a qb with such limited reps. It's like giving two guys 5 three point attempts to see who's the better shooter and then saying omg I can't believe one of you couldn't distinguish yourself from the other. Neither guy is able to get into a groove. Peyton wasn't good either in his limited reps and just going off that he'd be failing to beat out "Brian freaking Hoyer" either.
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I'm not judging him based off just last night. Mallett is a 27-year old, 5-year NFL vet who got zero offers on the FA market (aside from ours). There is a window at work here and he's about to miss it. The "upside" stuff only works for so long. But that's just my own personal opinion.


xtruroyaltyx said:
Ohio State isn't starting their qb this year who was third on the depth chart last season because he was great in practice. They are starting him because he was great in games that mattered.
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Off topic, but Jones isn't likely to be the starter this year. Most indications are that Barrett will start or they will split time. He also wasn't great in those games last year. His RB and defense were great while he put up worse numbers than the guy he was replacing.


xtruroyaltyx said:
Honestly, I'd say that it's bad on Hoyer who has more actual game reps that he's not been able to show himself superior to mallett. He has more experience. If he's truly better than the guy that should be shining through everywhere.

I'd be more worried that Hoyer hasn't been able to clearly show he's better than mallett at this point. He's the one with the most experience which means at this point mallett is keeping up with sheer ability. If he got some actual game experience it might not be close. Or he could show he doesn't belong.
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My post wasn't about Hoyer. It was about Mallett. Hoyer is who he is. We all know that already. We can crap all over Hoyer on this board but I don't see how him being bad absolves Mallett. Quite the opposite in fact. JMO.
 
Tolar's Ghost said:
I've felt since Mallett was acquired that if he had any potential to be a better-than-average QB, Hoodie wouldn't have let him go. Especially with Brady in his late-30's.
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I've always had that in the back of my mind. There had to be some reason why Belichick let him go. Vilified as much as that guy is around here, if he didn't care that much of him, who am I to question it.

The way I see it, not only Hoyer "is what he is", but Mallet "is what he is". The only unknown is Savage.
 
WolverineFan said:
I'm not judging him based off just last night. Mallett is a 27-year old, 5-year NFL vet who got zero offers on the FA market (aside from ours).
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It was reported he was offered more money by the Jets.

Marcus said:
I've always had that in the back of my mind. There had to be some reason why Belichick let him go. Vilified as much as that guy is around here, if he didn't care that much of him, who am I to question it.
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The offseason before we got Mallett he said he would not re-sign with the Patriots.
 
WolverineFan said:
I'm not judging him based off just last night. Mallett is a 27-year old, 5-year NFL vet who got zero offers on the FA market (aside from ours). There is a window at work here and he's about to miss it. The "upside" stuff only works for so long. But that's just my own personal opinion.
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Every report I've heard has said he turned down a bigger offer from the Jets to return here, about $1 million more per year offer.
 
corytx8 said:
Sorry, I misunderstood his question. You draft when your guy is there where you want him. I wouldn't draft a QB just to draft one. Putting my GM hat on for last seasons draft with Bortles and Bridgewater. I don't trade up to 31st-32nd spot if I have the 33rd spot. I would have taken Bridgewater at the 33rd spot.
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You would have taken him at 33 but not 31 or 32? Hmmm....interesting.

That aside. I'm over OB not drafting one of the top five qbs taken his first year when we were in a good position to have our pick of one of those interesting prospects.

I'm looking at the situation now. He still hasn't picked a qb for the upcoming season...let alone a guy to build behind for the future.

I'm just asking what time frame should we give him to pick a qb? Or is it ok if he just at has qb competitions every year?

I realize there's several other factors that go into getting rid of a coach. But just for this one particular decision. Realistically speaking, when should we expect OB to name a guy for the franchise.
 
Number19 said:
If you're dissatisfied with the Texans' coaching after one season in which OB went 9-7, then you are in for many seasons of being unhappy.
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I've been unhappy with Houston football since 1977.

9-7 is a failure. Anything short of a Superb Owl trophy in Houston is a failure.

I don't care if it's the coach's first year or if he's Don Shula, you play to win it all, so I don't get all of these free passes floating around these threads.

A head coach's success is tied to the quarterback he sides himself with. Therefore, whoever OB picks, he had better think this QB can win it all, otherwise OB is a failure, too.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
You would have taken him at 33 but not 31 or 32? Hmmm....interesting.

That aside. I'm over OB not drafting one of the top five qbs taken his first year when we were in a good position to have our pick of one of those interesting prospects.

I'm looking at the situation now. He still hasn't picked a qb for the upcoming season...let alone a guy to build behind for the future.

I'm just asking what time frame should we give him to pick a qb? Or is it ok if he just at has qb competitions every year?

I realize there's several other factors that go into getting rid of a coach. But just for this one particular decision. Realistically speaking, when should we expect OB to name a guy for the franchise.
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Of course, why give up an extra pick just to move up 2 spots when you see a player dropping. I would have stood pat until he dropped to me with SEA and NE ahead me who didn't need a 1st rd QB.

I am with you on picking a guy this season, at this point OB should just pick a guy for a season. I don't think OB needs to pick a guy for a future until said guy can prove he is elite. I am ok with OB having good honest competitions until we have our own Rodgers, P. Mainning, Brady type QB.

I am not putting a timeline for finding a QB on OB as long as he can produce winning results without one. The last thing I want is to pick a QB who turns out to a Ponder type player and we are stuck with him for a couple seasons. I would rather have competitions then that situation. Does that make sense?
 
Someone should start a new poll on the QBs to see where we think they stand after two games. The poll on this one is old and we could have changed our minds.
 
In a 1-possession-wins-it game, a team with a decent passing attack that gets the ball with more than a minute left is a heavy favorite to score. I'd rather be in their shoes than in their opponents'. I really believe that if you and your opponent are both good hurry-up teams and you score with, say, 1:50 left, your best strategy is to let your opponent run the kickoff back all the way. The rule changes to help passing attacks have done such a good job that having the ball "last" (more than 30 seconds to go) makes you the favorite to win a close game.

From last night the bottom line is: Savage is the best QB we have and it's looking like he's not good enough.
 
infantrycak said:
It was reported he was offered more money by the Jets.
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The Pencil Neck said:
Every report I've heard has said he turned down a bigger offer from the Jets to return here, about $1 million more per year offer.
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I don't recall that at all but I trust both of you as posters so I won't refute that. I do think that my original point does stand though. At some point this isn't about upside anymore and it's more about wasted potential. We aren't there yet, but like I stated before, his lack of separation from Hoyer is very troubling to me. I know he doesn't have the live game reps but we are going to reach a point in the future where it becomes less about not getting live reps and more about not earning them.
 
Seegara said:
In a 1-possession-wins-it game, a team with a decent passing attack that gets the ball with more than a minute left is a heavy favorite to score. I'd rather be in their shoes than in their opponents'. I really believe that if you and your opponent are both good hurry-up teams and you score with, say, 1:50 left, your best strategy is to let your opponent run the kickoff back all the way. The rule changes to help passing attacks have done such a good job that having the ball "last" (more than 30 seconds to go) makes you the favorite to win a close game.

From last night the bottom line is: Savage is the best QB we have and it's looking like he's not good enough.
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Do you want to come up with some stats for that? I'd be very interested in seeing them.

Last season in Week 1, the Colts, Ravens, and Chargers were all in close games, had the ball with < 2:00 minutes to go, and lost.
 
WolverineFan said:
I don't recall that at all but I trust both of you as posters so I won't refute that. I do think that my original point does stand though. At some point this isn't about upside anymore and it's more about wasted potential. We aren't there yet, but like I stated before, his lack of separation from Hoyer is very troubling to me. I know he doesn't have the live game reps but we are going to reach a point in the future where it becomes less about not getting live reps and more about not earning them.
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I don't think I've come out and said this before, but...

Think about WHO we're talking about here. O'Brien. Now, we all know that Billy O'Brien is a very upstanding chap who is always very transparent, inviting the media to come to his coaches meetings and sit in on their discussions so they know exactly what everyone in the Texans' organization thinks at all times, always being honest about the exact nature of all his players' injuries, upfront about who's going to start, and who's going to sit, the very polar opposite of the New England Patriots.

Oh.

Wait.

No.

Bill O'Brien is getting this team ready for Week 1. He is going to disseminate as much misinformation as he can. He's telling us that he hasn't made a choice about who his number one is? He's telling us that it's a dead heat? That may or may not be true. If he thinks he can get an advantage on other teams by not letting them know who to prepare for, and by not showing their knowledge of the system, you don't think he's going to take the opportunity to use that?

He's substituting players and putting them in positions to work on specific things, to learn specific lessons, to prepare specific things.

I suspect he knows how his #1 is, and he's preparing him for the KC game without letting anyone realize it.
 
WolverineFan said:
I don't recall that at all but I trust both of you as posters so I won't refute that. I do think that my original point does stand though. At some point this isn't about upside anymore and it's more about wasted potential. We aren't there yet, but like I stated before, his lack of separation from Hoyer is very troubling to me. I know he doesn't have the live game reps but we are going to reach a point in the future where it becomes less about not getting live reps and more about not earning them.
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http://www.scout.com/nfl/texans/story/1525612-ryan-mallett-returns-betting-on-himself


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The Pencil Neck said:
I don't think I've come out and said this before, but...

Think about WHO we're talking about here. O'Brien. Now, we all know that Billy O'Brien is a very upstanding chap who is always very transparent, inviting the media to come to his coaches meetings and sit in on their discussions so they know exactly what everyone in the Texans' organization thinks at all times, always being honest about the exact nature of all his players' injuries, upfront about who's going to start, and who's going to sit, the very polar opposite of the New England Patriots.

Oh.

Wait.

No.

Bill O'Brien is getting this team ready for Week 1. He is going to disseminate as much misinformation as he can. He's telling us that he hasn't made a choice about who his number one is? He's telling us that it's a dead heat? That may or may not be true. If he thinks he can get an advantage on other teams by not letting them know who to prepare for, and by not showing their knowledge of the system, you don't think he's going to take the opportunity to use that?

He's substituting players and putting them in positions to work on specific things, to learn specific lessons, to prepare specific things.

I suspect he knows how his #1 is, and he's preparing him for the KC game without letting anyone realize it.
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This what I think is going on with the exception of game planning for week 1. OB has to get played on film for evals to see who is getting cut.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Marcus said:
I've always had that in the back of my mind. There had to be some reason why Belichick let him go. Vilified as much as that guy is around here, if he didn't care that much of him, who am I to question it.
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Had Bledsoe not got hurt, I doubt Bellichick would have asked for much in trade for Tom Brady. In other words, you don't know, until you know. & since Mallett never had the opportunity to play in a regular season game... how would he know?

I'm just going by what I saw in that one game. Mallett knows this offense & I think he's got something to build on. I could be wrong. He might wilt after six games of getting NFL hits. Then we'll know six games in that he doesn't have it & it's time to move on.

It's not all or nothing, maybe he's Schaub+, right now, I'll take good Schaub in a heartbeat.

I know at best Hoyer could be Schaub+ in this system... at worst, he's 1-7 (or whatever it was) Cleveland Brown's Hoyer in games that matter. & it's not just that the Browns lost, it's that he played poorly in those losses.

All that said, OB's job right now is not to find out if Mallett can be a franchise QB. His job is to win football games. If he thinks Hoyer gives us a better chance, so be it. But if he runs him out there with that rookie game plan he gave us with Fitz... it's time for the soap.
 
EVOLVIST said:
I've been unhappy with Houston football since 1977.

9-7 is a failure. Anything short of a Superb Owl trophy in Houston is a failure.

I don't care if it's the coach's first year or if he's Don Shula, you play to win it all, so I don't get all of these free passes floating around these threads.

A head coach's success is tied to the quarterback he sides himself with. Therefore, whoever OB picks, he had better think this QB can win it all, otherwise OB is a failure, too.
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I like where your head is at. But, tell me this. If we win the division every year for the next 5 years, Two AFC Championship games... is it time to fire OBrien?
 
The Pencil Neck said:
I don't think I've come out and said this before, but...

Think about WHO we're talking about here. O'Brien. Now, we all know that Billy O'Brien is a very upstanding chap who is always very transparent, inviting the media to come to his coaches meetings and sit in on their discussions so they know exactly what everyone in the Texans' organization thinks at all times, always being honest about the exact nature of all his players' injuries, upfront about who's going to start, and who's going to sit, the very polar opposite of the New England Patriots.

Oh.

Wait.

No.

Bill O'Brien is getting this team ready for Week 1. He is going to disseminate as much misinformation as he can. He's telling us that he hasn't made a choice about who his number one is? He's telling us that it's a dead heat? That may or may not be true. If he thinks he can get an advantage on other teams by not letting them know who to prepare for, and by not showing their knowledge of the system, you don't think he's going to take the opportunity to use that?

He's substituting players and putting them in positions to work on specific things, to learn specific lessons, to prepare specific things.

I suspect he knows how his #1 is, and he's preparing him for the KC game without letting anyone realize it.
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This is what I hope is happening. I'm kind of getting a sick yo-yo feeling this week of another year without a qb versus this coach is just way smarter than all of us and we'll be somewhat ok. I'll take good Schaub in a heartbeat because if this defense plays to its potential I think we can challenege for the division, or potentially sneak into the show as a wildcard.
 
Marcus said:
Hmmm . . wouldnt surprise me.

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-med...nference/8eac44e9-f5a5-4fbf-a2dd-77bf8f089f41

Listening to his presser today, as noncommittal as can he be about choosing the QB, he still lets it out about the need to pump the ball downfield more. Draw your own conclusions.
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I hope so PN. I actually thought about him not wanting to give his opponents an advantage, but:

1) seems like that's be more beneficial to Hoyer since mallett doesn't have a lot on film.

2) does one game of the Chiefs not knowing the starter outweighs the affect it has on the team and the qb gaining chemistry
 
thunderkyss said:
I like where your head is at. But, tell me this. If we win the division every year for the next 5 years, Two AFC Championship games... is it time to fire OBrien?
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Bum Phillips. Jerry Glanville. Jack Pardee. Yep, your scenario isn't even Marv Levy-esque, for the Bills in the '90s.

We can say what we want about how horrible Bud Adams was, but before it was about filling seats, that cat wanted to WIN!

I would have OB gone. Then again, I don't have the silk heart that Uncle Bob does.

Not enough for too long, Houston sports fans.
 
I still want to know why Savage was given the lion's share of the work in both games when we are supposed to be picking between the other 2 guys. Wouldn't it make more sense to have given them more looks irregardless of whether it was a 10th team defense playing against us?
 
nut said:
I still want to know why Savage was given the lion's share of the work in both games when we are supposed to be picking between the other 2 guys. Wouldn't it make more sense to have given them more looks irregardless of whether it was a 10th team defense playing against us?
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My suspicion, if that is the correct word, is that OB already knows what both Hoyer and Mallett can bring to the table, and is just simply giving them their reps, while not knowing yet what Savage brings to the table.
 
I wish OB would get off his ass and pick one. All this extended competition crap tells me is that to OB there's not a lick of difference between either (or all three) of them and that's bad.
 
nut said:
I still want to know why Savage was given the lion's share of the work in both games when we are supposed to be picking between the other 2 guys. Wouldn't it make more sense to have given them more looks irregardless of whether it was a 10th team defense playing against us?
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I think that to the coaches the quality of the work in the second half of either of these first two preseason games isn't good enough to give them any useful information. With so many scrubs on the field (for us and them) it's impossible to get valid information.
 
Keenum just threw an 80-yard TD pass for the Rams.

But we all know he doesn't fit O'Brien's "system."

Fisher obviously likes him. And he's nailing down the backup job to Foles.
 
EVOLVIST said:
I've been unhappy with Houston football since 1977.

9-7 is a failure. Anything short of a Superb Owl trophy in Houston is a failure.

I don't care if it's the coach's first year or if he's Don Shula, you play to win it all, so I don't get all of these free passes floating around these threads
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That is quite the straw man you have set up. No wonder you have experienced a lack of happiness in 38 years of this leisure activity. Makes me wonder why you continue to spend so many of your free hours on something so unsatisfying. Perhaps you should consider finding something you are likely to enjoy doing or figure out a way to experience happiness even if the Texans are one of the 97% of NFL teams who fail to win this year's Superbowl.
 
dalemurphy said:
That is quite the straw man you have set up. No wonder you have experienced a lack of happiness in 38 years of this leisure activity. Makes me wonder why you continue to spend so many of your free hours on something so unsatisfying. Perhaps you should consider finding something you are likely to enjoy doing or figure out a way to experience happiness even if the Texans are one of the 97% of NFL teams who fail to win this year's Superbowl.
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Dale, chill, my friend. There is happiness in watching live entertainment that is never repeated the exact same way, each time, with a different cast of characters...all 38 years of it! Nothing is quite like it on the whole planet. It's a real joy! I'm here aren't I?

That doesn't negate, however, that ultimately - in the grande scheme of things - something that's bigger than all of us put together - football teams in Houston have failed to reach the ultimate goal. We hold out for that moment. We dream of that moment. And if I wasn't in love with the thought of that moment, then yes, I would do something else.

As is, though, I will keep my joy in the day-to-day, but rue the team who ultimately settles for anything less than a Superb Owl trophy in Houston, Texas, USA.
 
dalemurphy said:
That only further proves that success in preseason does not predict regular season success.
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Well Keenum did win a couple of playoff atmosphere games when he got a HC that called plays that worked to the strengths of his game.
 
My thoughts:

These two guys do look about the same, and that's more of an indictment than anything else. I do like O'Briens demeanor and attitude but I can only watch an offense like last years so many seasons in a row. This season looks like it could be a real crapfestival of an offense and that will be two years in a row.
 
infantrycak said:
Why, you predicting many seasons of middle of the pack football?

And I'm not dissatisfied across the board with the coaching but finding a QB has been a clusterf'ck.
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It's easy to predict mediocrity .... until they do find a capable QB.


I'm not "dissatisfied across the board" with the coaching either .... and yes , the QB situation is a clvsterfvck .... but I don't blame that on O'Brien .... all he can do is coach the guys Rick Smith has given him .... and Smith has been a clvsterfvck in giving his head coach talent at that position since Schaub got broke. Just look at the list of players they have lined up at QB since.
I've held the opinion that they fired the wrong guy .... and that if anything they should have fired Smith along with Kubiak since it was Smith making those personnel decisions and the cap situation he had the team in leading up to that last season under Kubiak - Extending an injured Schaub against Kubiak's better judgment ...

If I had one thing to complain about .... I don't like the fact that OB has not really given either guy enough time in either game ... They should have been given an entire half in their respective starts , not less than a quarter and the 3rd stringer getting more time than both.
But for the most part , I blame Rick Smith for the clvsterfvck of a position this team finds itself in at QB. He had several chances to get talent in the draft and just didn't do it. He had shots at Bortles , Manziel , Bridgewater , Garapolo & Mettenberger (among others) ... all of which appear to be better options than the hot garbage OB has to work with currently.

He has to realize that until they solve the QB spot long term this team isn't going to compete for Lombardi trophy's .... at best they'll be mired in mediocrity.
 
nut said:
I still want to know why Savage was given the lion's share of the work in both games when we are supposed to be picking between the other 2 guys. Wouldn't it make more sense to have given them more looks irregardless of whether it was a 10th team defense playing against us?
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I imagine he's getting Savage as many "quality" reps as he can. The biggest knock on him is that he hasn't played a lot of football over the last 3 or 4 years. Once the season starts, he'll go back to running the scout team. Not really involved in our offense at all.

I really don't think OB needs to see any more from Hoyer or Mallett on the field to make up his mind. He's looking at how they handle the situation they're in, how they respond, how they handle themselves, & how the team reacts around them.
 
infantrycak said:
Thing is OB supposedly has more control not less than Kubiak. I have a hard time believing Smith is forcing NE players on OB.
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How many former Pats are on the current roster ?


Wilfork was a no brainer .... Perfect fit for the defense that we had been looking for since Seth Payne left.

Mallett .... was worth the gamble of a late round pick. Weren't a whole lot of options other than a high draft choice .... which obviously they were against doing.

Who else ?


As for OB having more or less personnel control than Kubiak .... I cant answer that. One side of that argument I have insight on , the other I'm clueless to. I do know with certainty that the garbage we saw trotted out after Schaub's meltdown were mostly made by Smith - including Schaub's extension.
 
Read an interesting conversation on Twitter this evening. I posted the embedded tweets at BRB and just did a screen cap of said tweets:

H1aBSKW.png


Pat either knows/ or has seen something but just is not allowed to discuss.
 
I'm just ready for Week 1 against the Chiefs. All this practice, preseason and quarterback talk is getting old to me. Once the games mean something it doesn't matter who's out there playing. Winning football games hasn't changed and it's still a team game. Thank goodness for Hard Knocks. I've enjoyed that more than this boring preseason. Let's just get these games done against the Saints and Cowboys without any major injuries.
 
infantrycak said:
Both guys being considered for starting QB.
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I forgot that Hoyer was there .... First thing that came to mind with him was "Bad News Browns" ....

Bulls on Parade said:
I'm just ready for Week 1 against the Chiefs. All this practice, preseason and quarterback talk is getting old to me. Once the games mean something it doesn't matter who's out there playing. Winning football games hasn't changed and it's still a team game. Thank goodness for Hard Knocks. I've enjoyed that more than this boring preseason. Let's just get these games done against the Saints and Cowboys without any major injuries.
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It's getting old for all of us .... but you can almost bet your last dollar that we'll be having this same QB discussion next season.

"Who's your QB V3.0"
 
Sigma said:
You can bet we'll be having this same QB discussion all throughout this regular season as well :)
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Well , that went unsaid ... if we are talking about it next year , we probably talked about it all season ....

I'm damn envious of the Dolts , only having to live thru one crappy season to go from Manning to Luck .... We have to live thru HWWNBM , Schaub and now the last two years of hot garbage ..... and still have no answer.

Damn Packers .... from Favre to Rodgers .... we just get to go from bad to worse.
 
Two very different but valid discussion points, depending on which guy you are rooting for:

Hoyer, with a resume of being an NFL starter for at least one season, can't beat out a guy who watched Brady for four years and has 2 career starts to his name.

Mallett, while being in this "system" his whole career and second year under OB, can't beat out a guy that has below average career stats and was benched for Johnny Football.
 
Corrosion said:
I forgot that Hoyer was there .... First thing that came to mind with him was "Bad News Browns" ....
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I know you said Browns but a mental picture of OB as "Buttermaker" in the Hawaiian shirt and holding a beer simply will not leave my mind for some reason now.
 
sandman said:
Two very different but valid discussion points, depending on which guy you are rooting for:

Hoyer, with a resume of being an NFL starter for at least one season, can't beat out a guy who watched Brady for four years and has 2 career starts to his name.

Mallett, while being in this "system" his whole career and second year under OB, can't beat out a guy that has below average career stats and was benched for Johnny Football.
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Add in that Hoyer was also in the system.

Don't see it as a who you root for thing unless you refuse to acknowledge both rise and fall together.
 
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