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JaDeveon Clowney

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Playoffs said:
JD is as good as done, so this is a meandering topic thread now.
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Sorry - not sure if this is serious, or kind of exaggerating. I've kind of lost track of the news on Clowney, and I'm not sure if I've missed something. Last I heard, he was expected to be back from his injury for next season. Is there new news or a change in prognosis?
 
ObsiWan said:
That's what I remember. I think Solomon was the primary target and Montana tossed it, high, in that direction, thinking if Freddie can't get to it no one else will either. One of the Cowboy defenders (Everson Walls?) confessed that he didn't even think it was catchable so he didn't make a play on it. Then Dwight Clark freakin' came out of nowhere and snagged it.
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That was Everson (went to my HS) as a rookie and he has said he thought Montana was throwing it away. He said he and Thurman had talked about that play going to Solomon before the game and he saw Thurman had Solomon covered and then the ball coming out high.
 
keyser said:
Sorry - not sure if this is serious, or kind of exaggerating. I've kind of lost track of the news on Clowney, and I'm not sure if I've missed something. Last I heard, he was expected to be back from his injury for next season. Is there new news or a change in prognosis?
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Prognosis from our TTalk Dr. CND has been same -- look back at his many and detailed posts.

All of the valid studies in professional athletes optimistically support the procedure -- it is a money-maker -- but only follow the recipients to RTP (return to play). They do not attempt to gauge or publish what level of play is reached compared to prior to the procedure. There's a reason for that. For the type of player he is, we'd be lucky to get 1 year at ~70% and another at 50%. And that is optimistic, imo.

The Texans should proceed and act as if we never drafted JD.
 
I don't see how the designation "game manager" is derogatory. It's a skill set that you must have to be a good QB. Being a "game manager" is one step below being an elite QB. Hell I would define an elite QB as one that is a good game manager with the ability to carry a team with a special ability.
 
mussop said:
I don't see how the designation "game manager" is derogatory. It's a skill set that you must have to be a good QB. Being a "game manager" is one step below being an elite QB. Hell I would define an elite QB as one that is a good game manager with the ability to carry a team with a special ability.
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As DB said any good QB manages the game. But that isn't what the term game manager means in common usage. It is universally used wrt QBs to mean one who limits the playbook, who can't put a team on his shoulders, who rather than make plays is merely hoped won't make mistakes, a player who is anti-clutch, etc. You don't hear it said about good QBs. Nobody says Tom Brady or Manning was an excellent game manager when they dink and dunk down the field all game long. It's all about dissecting the defense and great reads and unstoppable. It's a contrast to being elite, franchise or even a top QB. It's a guy riding a team.
 
mussop said:
I don't see how the designation "game manager" is derogatory. It's a skill set that you must have to be a good QB. Being a "game manager" is one step below being an elite QB. Hell I would define an elite QB as one that is a good game manager with the ability to carry a team with a special ability.
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I don't have a problem with the "game manager" tag. Half the teams in the league would be better off if they'd stop swinging for the fences & get a "game manager."

However, you put a "game manager" on his own 13 yard line down two scores, you're going to need more than seven plays & 1:43 to get a TD. Then in the unlikely even your game manager did "manage" to do that, try to get him to run for 23 yards of a 50 yard TD drive to go ahead with 1:25 left in the NFC Championship game.

& game managers don't go to back to back Super Bowls without at least one all pro receiver.
 
infantrycak said:
As DB said any good QB manages the game. But that isn't what the term game manager means in common usage. It is universally used wrt QBs to mean one who limits the playbook, who can't put a team on his shoulders, who rather than make plays is merely hoped won't make mistakes, a player who is anti-clutch, etc. You don't hear it said about good QBs. Nobody says Tom Brady or Manning was an excellent game manager when they dink and dunk down the field all game long. It's all about dissecting the defense and great reads and unstoppable. It's a contrast to being elite, franchise or even a top QB. It's a guy riding a team.
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ie. Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson...
 
JB said:
I didn't know he planned a trip to Ohio
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Oh I meant the little league HOF. Heard they have an awesome exhibit hahaha.

I'm not writing him off yet. I'm optimistic. I believe he can still productive. Hell we've had LBers that looked like they were playing on one leg already.
 
Double Barrel said:
All good QBs are "game managers".

The better ones are that plus other things, like clutch, or big arm, or mobile or [insert description here].

I agree with you that the term gets overused and is often derogatory, but I'm fighting that trend. Every good QB manages the game. Some do it better than others, and then there's those guys who can stink all game but clutch out a win in the end. And winning is truly all that really matters in football.



Excellent example with Montana. MSR. I was going to use the same example. Most folks do not remember any of those four turnovers by Montana, but The Catch is celebrated every year.

It's not how you start that really matters, but how you finish.
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It matters whether the rest of the team can keep you close enough to perform your magic at the end if you've been the cause of the team's trouble for three quarters.
 
I will consider myself guilty of applying the game manager tag to Wilson, only because he doesn't fit the elite passer side of being a QB:

Seattle passing offense: 26th
Attempts: 19th
Completion %: 20th
Yards: 15th
YPA: 8th
TD: 16th
Rating: 10th

I also looked at YAC, for the whole "dink and dunk" argument, and 52% of Wilson's passing yards were YAC. Manning was 40% and Brady was 47%. When looking at the top 12 passing offenses the average YAC was 45%. Only Washington and Detroit were above 50%, for obvious reasons. Washington had multiple QB's this season and Stafford was without Megatron for some games and ended up with a third of his passes going to RB's.

Does Wilson find ways to win games? Yes. Is he a really good QB? Yes. But he is not an elite QB from a passing perspective. He is a running QB who for the most part (except for this last game) is pretty smart and selective about his pass attempts.

He will never be a Brady or Manning or Luck or Brees or Big Ben or Rodgers, and the Seahawks don't need him to be with a great defense and running game. He is in a system that compliments his skill set perfectly. And in the end, accurate or not, the QB always gets credited with the wins.

But it is easy to see why people want to give him the elite game manager label, because elite passer definitely does not fit.
 
sandman said:
He will never be a Brady or Manning or Luck or Brees or Big Ben or Rodgers, and the Seahawks don't need him to be with a great defense and running game. He is in a system that compliments his skill set perfectly. And in the end, accurate or not, the QB always gets credited with the wins.
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I don't know about that. Have you looked at New England's passing stats, or Pittsburgh passing stats the first three years those guys were in the league?

They were not putting up big numbers & they didn't have to with the make ups of those teams. Like Wilson, they were "very selective" about the passes they threw. They eventually became very good QBs.

Russell Wilson is not elite right now. I don't think anyone is arguing that. But he's Seattle's franchise QB & he'll soon have the contract to prove it. They will build around Russell Wilson.
 
thunderkyss said:
Russell Wilson is not elite right now. I don't think anyone is arguing that. But he's Seattle's franchise QB & he'll soon have the contract to prove it. They will build around Russell Wilson.
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Wouldn't argue with this. I think Seattle and Wilson will see a lot of success together, but IMHO I don't ever see him developing into an elite passer. They will continue to build a team around defense, running game, and mobile QB.
 
sandman said:
I will consider myself guilty of applying the game manager tag to Wilson, only because he doesn't fit the elite passer side of being a QB:

Seattle passing offense: 26th
Attempts: 19th
Completion %: 20th
Yards: 15th
YPA: 8th
TD: 16th
Rating: 10th

I also looked at YAC, for the whole "dink and dunk" argument, and 52% of Wilson's passing yards were YAC. Manning was 40% and Brady was 47%. When looking at the top 12 passing offenses the average YAC was 45%. Only Washington and Detroit were above 50%, for obvious reasons. Washington had multiple QB's this season and Stafford was without Megatron for some games and ended up with a third of his passes going to RB's.

Does Wilson find ways to win games? Yes. Is he a really good QB? Yes. But he is not an elite QB from a passing perspective. He is a running QB who for the most part (except for this last game) is pretty smart and selective about his pass attempts.

He will never be a Brady or Manning or Luck or Brees or Big Ben or Rodgers, and the Seahawks don't need him to be with a great defense and running game. He is in a system that compliments his skill set perfectly. And in the end, accurate or not, the QB always gets credited with the wins.

But it is easy to see why people want to give him the elite game manager label, because elite passer definitely does not fit.
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All I know is the year before Wilson was the starter (2011), Seattle's record was 7-9. Marshawn Lynch had 1200+ yds and 12 TDs so the running game was there. The defense was ranked 7th in the NFL (pts against) and it ranked 5th in producing turnovers. So the defense was there. Wilson's rookie year Seattle finished 11-5. He's a difference maker.

And like Tom Brady, he's going to go to two super bowls in this first three years as his team's starting QB. In his first three years as the starter he has more TDs (72 to 69) and fewer INTs (26 to 38) than Brady had in his first 3 yrs as the Pats' starter.

"Never be a Brady?" We'll see.
 
PHILLYTEXANFAN said:
How bout that Clowney feller:kitten:
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Drafted with high expectations. Got injured. No impact as a rookie. Microfracture surgery. Long odds against him living up to draft status or even being a long term good player. Snake oil salesman trying give fans hope he can return at near 100%.
 
how do you press "PAUSE" on this thread?
[imgwidthsize=300]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlsqD7KNeEdh7jZCDcZv46Aw3xlbDX4FggnG0jhHlEjGGviBozLQ[/IMG]

and press "PLAY" next season if/when Clowney comes back.
:kitten:
 
B7zXYylCYAAdYYC.jpg
 
When did the Clowney thread turn into the Wilson thread?

I thought there was another forum for topics like this?
 
The Pencil Neck said:
People look at Tom Brady and they look at his entire career and say "He's elite."

But, iirc, his first couple of years as a starter, he was a game-manager type of QB, not a big passing yardage guy.

He only developed the big yardage stuff later in his career.
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His 2nd year as starter he was 3rd in the league in yardage (behind Bledsoe and Gannon) and 1st in passing TDs. 3rd year he tapered off some but the team did better.
 
ObsiWan said:
That's what I remember. I think Solomon was the primary target and Montana tossed it, high, in that direction, thinking if Freddie can't get to it no one else will either. One of the Cowboy defenders (Everson Walls?) confessed that he didn't even think it was catchable so he didn't make a play on it. Then Dwight Clark freakin' came out of nowhere and snagged it.
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Here some good info on it, fwiw:

It was called Sprint Right Option. "We actually practiced that play a lot. Coach [Bill] Walsh always told Joe, 'Just throw it way up there, so that if Dwight can't get it, nobody can. Just don't throw an interception.'"

And so, with the Cowboys' Too Tall Jones clawing at his cleats, Montana backpedaled in desperation with Walsh's words in his head. He could not even see the end zone, but he knew where Clark would be. He pump-faked Jones and sailed one that referee Jim Tunney would later say "should've ended up in the third row of seats."

"When I saw it, I remember thinking to myself, 'Holy s---! That's really high!" Clark says.

The defender, the Cowboys' Everson Walls, once told Clark, "Man, I thought that thing was going to fly way past us out of bounds."

But Clark, a former high jumper who could dunk in eighth grade, climbed some unseen escalator and snagged it with the tippy tips of his six middle fingers. Touchdown. Candlestick nearly shook into the bay. Your basic Greatest Catch Ever.

"Man, your boy Dwight really bailed your ass out on that one," somebody chided Montana when he came off.

"C'mon, it wasn't that high," Montana scoffed.

But in watching replays during postgame interviews, Montana said, "Wow. It was pretty high, wasn't it?"

Source
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Funny thing is (and I did not know this), Joe Montana always hated that play:

They had practiced the play every day, from the first day of training camp through Week 16 and the playoffs. Yet the play -- "Sprint Right Option" -- caused serious problems for San Francisco 49ers quarterback Joe Montana and his teammates.

"We hated it," Montana would say.

The play forced Montana to throw the ball while running and jumping simultaneously, and every time he attempted to throw the pass in practice, 49ers coach Bill Walsh would yell, "No, no, Joe. Throw it harder. Throw it higher.'"

The players often mumbled in disgust during practice, "How many times are we ever going to use this play, anyway?"

Source
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Marshall said:
It matters whether the rest of the team can keep you close enough to perform your magic at the end if you've been the cause of the team's trouble for three quarters.
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Of course the team matters in a team sport. I have never seen a great QB win a championship without a good team around him.
 
Norg said:
Is Clown rehabing in Houston or back home in SC
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If I remember what CND said, for the first few weeks (months?) there is no rehab. He has to keep all weight off the knee until the surgery heals. So it doesn't matter, during this timeframe, where Clowney is.
 
"That surgery requires a pretty significant amount of time that you are not weight bearing, and then you kind of gotta work yourself back to it. He's been diligent in his rehab," Smith said on Sirius XM NFL radio Thursday, per Tania Ganguli of ESPN.com. "That's the thing he can control right now. He understands that. It's an arduous process for him because he's limited right now in what he can do."

Clowney, 21, underwent surgery last month to repair damage in his knee that ruined his rookie season. The former South Carolina star and No. 1 overall pick in the 2014 NFL draft was limited to four appearances, making seven tackles and failing to record a sack. The microfracture procedure was Clowney's second surgery on his right knee, which also needed a scope earlier in the season.
The Texans have said they expect Clowney to make a full recovery, but it's a difficult procedure that doesn't always have the desired effect.

Designed to regenerate cartilage, microfractures involve poking holes in a patient's bone to stimulate blood flow and alleviate pain. NBA center Greg Oden underwent multiple microfracture surgeries that ultimately halted his career. A nine-month timetable was given when Clowney went under the knife, but it's too early in the process to know whether he'll be ready for the start of training camp or the regular season.

"He's anxious to make the contributions that we all know he's capable of making," Smith said. "Some of the things, the flashes that we saw even in the preseason, it's important to him that he returns to full health so that he can contribute and help our football team."
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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ury-updates-on-texans-stars-knee-and-recovery
 
For all of those gloom and doom type people, even though they play different positions, and stress levels are somewhat different. I think we could look at a player like Marques Colston, WR for the Saints as example of someone who has been through 2 Microfracture surgeries in back to back season and still returned to high level of play even though all I heard after his surgery was the same thing we are hearing from some about Clowney's return.

Marques Colston's last two seasons have been sub par, but not because of his surgeries, but rather newer talent, and the falloff of the team when Sean Peyton was gone, and the problems they had this season.

I have a wait and see attitude, but have no problem saying I am optimistic Clowney can recover to near 100% being as young as he is. Colston was 26 when he had his first MF surgery. Clowney is 21 people.

It's possible he will work hard dispelling the work ethic myths and return to a high level. It's funny to me that many of you who were complaining that Clowney was loafing and should just take the shot and get back out there are now the same people saying he will never be what he could have been.

I believe this kid will be fine, and will be well worth his draft status in the long run. Time will tell. Good luck Clowney!
 
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Nitrofish said:
I believe this kid will be fine, and will be well worth his draft status in the long run. Time will tell. Good luck Clowney!
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The key will be if he can get through practices without his knee swelling. With this type of injury, that swelling is going to tell us whether or not he'll be able to play.

The knee isn't necessarily weaker because of the injury, it just possibly isn't as durable as it used to be. So if he handles his rehab correctly, he may very well be as strong as he ever was, as quick, & as explosive... but he won't be any of those things consistently from week to week, maybe not play to play.
 
By training camp haha that would be a dream now it seems, like he will miss the first 6 weeks at least maybe 8 weeks half the season. To be on the safe side
 
I'd take Russell over 30 other starting NFLQB's (Brady and Rodgers being the exceptions) and Clowney will go down as a colossal bust. Thank God for the new CBA!
 
DocBar said:
I'd take Russell over 30 other starting NFLQB's (Brady and Rodgers being the exceptions) and Clowney will go down as a colossal bust. Thank God for the new CBA!
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You'd take Jamarcus over Luck? :yikes:


:kitten:
 
JB said:
You'd take Jamarcus over Luck? :yikes:


:kitten:
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The last time I checked, there wasn't a starting NFL QB named Jamarcus....that's so last decade of you. Thank God for Jamarcus too, though. He's a major reason the rookie wage scale is in place!!!
 
DocBar said:
The last time I checked, there wasn't a starting NFL QB named Jamarcus....that's so last decade of you. Thank God for Jamarcus too, though. He's a major reason the rookie wage scale is in place!!!
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Yep! Jamarcus and VY. At least they accomplished something.


But seriously, I wouldn't take Wilson over Luck. I think Luck is the better QB by quite a bit, Wilson has the better team by quite a bit.
 
JB said:
Yep! Jamarcus and VY. At least they accomplished something.


But seriously, I wouldn't take Wilson over Luck. I think Luck is the better QB by quite a bit, Wilson has the better team by quite a bit.
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That's cool. I think both are good QB's and wouldn't ***** about either one.
 
Marcus said:
Here is the latest on Clowney from the Bleacher Report.
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Title: Texans should not count on Clowney 2015 and here is the article :

Clowney played just 146 listless snaps with the Texans in 2014—all the while fighting a knee injury he sustained in Week 1—before going on IR. Then, to put the cherry on the poop sundae, the injury he tried to fight through could be fixed only with microfracture surgery. Microfracture has a tendency to sap the strength and speed of the world's top athletes at best, and at worst has the potential to be a career-ending surgery.

According to Texans general manager Rick Smith, Clowney has not yet begun putting weight on the injury. That seems to be pretty much on track with the basic timeline laid out in general recovery timelines on the Internet, which, as we all know, is the most reliable source for medical news.
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This is what p me off! Where does any of that say he will miss any of 2015 alone the entire season? It says same thing we knew..saps strength, speed and has potentialto be career ending. :pissed::strangle:
 
badboy said:
Title: Texans should not count on Clowney 2015 and here is the article :

This is what p me off! Where does any of that say he will miss any of 2015 alone the entire season? It says same thing we knew..saps strength, speed and has potentialto be career ending. :pissed::strangle:
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What are you trying to say? All of the evidence points towards a less than stellar career. Extrapolating any career success from this injury is almost pointless.
 
badboy said:
Title: Texans should not count on Clowney 2015 and here is the article :

This is what p me off! Where does any of that say he will miss any of 2015 alone the entire season? It says same thing we knew..saps strength, speed and has potentialto be career ending. :pissed::strangle:
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Rivers McCown has been writing in a critical way for sensationalism IMHO

I don't find him to be objective
 
DocBar said:
What are you trying to say? All of the evidence points towards a less than stellar career. Extrapolating any career success from this injury is almost pointless.
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I said exactly what I intended to say. The title did not say Clowney could have less than a stellar career. It said don't count on him for 2015. Surely you see the difference? Extrapolating any career failure from this injury is almost pointless.

See how you read what you wanted and came to an opinion and I used your exact words to say the opposite? No one knows based on evidence we have what Clowney will do.
 
badboy said:
I said exactly what I intended to say. The title did not say Clowney could have less than a stellar career. It said don't count on him for 2015. Surely you see the difference? Extrapolating any career failure from this injury is almost pointless.

See how you read what you wanted and came to an opinion and I used your exact words to say the opposite? No one knows based on evidence we have what Clowney will do.
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Very selective reading/interpretation on your part. I stand by my statements and I'm willing to eat what crow I may deserve in the future.
 
DocBar said:
Very selective reading/interpretation on your part. I stand by my statements and I'm willing to eat what crow I may deserve in the future.
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Very selective reading/interpretation on your part. I stand by my statements and I'm willing to eat what crow I may deserve in the future.
 
badboy said:
Title: Texans should not count on Clowney 2015 and here is the article :

This is what p me off! Where does any of that say he will miss any of 2015 alone the entire season? It says same thing we knew..saps strength, speed and has potentialto be career ending. :pissed::strangle:
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It's an opinion piece. There is no update, and won't be for a long time. Let's put the thread back on pause.
 
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