BullNation4Life
All Pro
Dan Marino scored like a 15 on his....
That guy rode "stupid" all the way to the Hall of Fame...
That guy rode "stupid" all the way to the Hall of Fame...
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Manziel
- Thread starter Wolf
- Start date
- Status
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
48..
BullNation4Life
All Pro
soooo better to have a QB who is "dumb" but has talent or a QB that is "smart" but has little talent.....
guess try to find something in the middle....
guess try to find something in the middle....
Lord Bills
Destruction
so manziel's intelligence is validated with his wonderlic scores.
the texans will regret passing on johnny football.
mark my words,
Johnny Football will be a success in the NFL so will Clowney.
Sad that the texans are passing up on both. This draft will be forever remembered in infamy, the day the texans passed on the best defensive and best offensive player in the same draft where they had the first pick overall.
the texans will regret passing on johnny football.
mark my words,
Johnny Football will be a success in the NFL so will Clowney.
Sad that the texans are passing up on both. This draft will be forever remembered in infamy, the day the texans passed on the best defensive and best offensive player in the same draft where they had the first pick overall.
Lord Bills
Destruction
why not have both which is what manziel is?
O Johnny, Johnny! wherefore art thou Johnny?
Deny thy father and refuse thy name;
Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I'll no longer be a Texans fan.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Says the Grand Wizard of Spedville.
Is this known as the Rick Smith draft?
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
I see Manziel highlights and the bulk of them are him running. Not passing. In the select passing highlights he throws it up for grabs and a wr bails him out. Or the wr is so open my 9 year old daughter could complete the pass. Is he a winner and a playmaker? Yup. So was Tebow. The jitter bug routine is fascinating to watch but it has a short shelf life...sooner then later he's going to have to pass like a pro qb and I don't expect to see the same results we saw in the sec. Sale.
Not saying we should take Manziel, but Manziel is an extremely accurate passer. The highlights are just that. He made big time throws against Alabama both years that only a select few guys can make. You have to watch entire games to appreciate just how good he can be when he's mechanically sound. He's special when the play breaks down, but he's very good getting the ball where it needs to be.
I had a debate with a scout who actually went to A&M and he kept telling me how Manziel didn't have a strong arm after his Freshman season. I told him to go back and watch the Cotton Bowl against OU and look at some of the throws he made. If he can play a little smarter and anticipate throws better he's going to be a beast in this league. I just hope we don't have to face twice a year if he does improve in those areas.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
The problem with watching highlights is theyre a very small sample size of what a player is on a down in down out basis. I have watched very little college ball for the last couple of years so understanding Manziel in the context of a game is a bit difficult for me. I haven't seen how he comands an offense or orchestrates a 15 play drive. I don't question his arm strength because on film it looks comparable to both bortles and bridgewater (i'd rate him in between the 2 while giving the overall edge to bortles.) I think we all agree accuracy is supremely important...but it can be misleading.
As a example, I distinctly recall reading a scouting report on Blaine Gabbert which said he was overhyped and his accuracy numbers were a sham because all he was required to do in his college offense was 5 yard dink and dunk passes. His downfield passing percentage painted a different picture...in hindsight, a more accurate picture of his ability. Maybe Manziel isnt that guy but the little ive seen on my own and the highlights ive watched don't convince me he's a true passing qb. In truth, I think O'Brien is a stickler for a refined disciplined operator of his system and wont go near an improvising gunslinger like Manziel.
Let me go ahead and call my shot now...Manziel's career will be a flash in the pan eerily similar to Vince Youngs. 1or 2 good seasons with the occasional espn highlights and then poof. ..gone.
I think Manziel's arm is stronger than both Bortles and Bridgewater and there are several analysts who agree with that. I've said over and over again that Manziel is not without flaws. To be honest I'm starting to think he and O'Brien could make a perfect team. He needs a guy like that who's detail oriented and demands discipline. I think he could bring the best out of him, and O'Brien could benefit because it would open up his offense even more. Every coach would love a mobile QB who can also make throws from the pocket if they could have one.
Your comparisons with Tebow and Gabbert though aren't very good. Gabbert threw a ton of screens in that offense and he had possibly the worst pocket presence I've ever seen from a 1st round pick. Manziel needs to be better stepping up into the pocket at times, but he's nothing like Gabbert whatsoever. Don't even get me started on the Tebow comparison. I know you're just basing your opinion on gut since you've admitted you don't watch much college football, but that's like me saying the next great up and coming soccer player will be a bust.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Either Texans take Manziel & get themselves a franchise QB or his nemesis Jadeveon Clowney who will run him down, possibly breaking him in the process. Fitzpartick is actually a bigger dude like 6-2 230 who scored way higher on his wonderlick (48) with plethora of experience.
So you're saying Fitz is a better player?
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
My comparisons to Gabbert and Tebow was more about character traits and evaluations then any direct connection between them and Manziel. You said Manziel was accurate as many people claimed Gabbert was. Tebow was a college legend and winner just like Manziel is. At the end of the day I just don't think Manziel's game translates in the pros. If you like him cool...I understand why. No harm no foul. I don't find myself liking any of the qb prospects enough to argue for them or against them. I'm in camp with Clowney and just barely...my perfect scenario is a trade back.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
I can see Clowney killing them both equally...or maybe he'll take a nap near the hashmarks.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
If anything, Manziel is too much a downfield passer. He suffers a little bit from the same cons as Winston as far as his passing goes. He doesn't take check downs when he should, looking for the big play far too often and they've come too often for him to really refine the take what the defense gives part of playing QB. Manziel can be a pro QB if he can a) avoid injury, b) constantly work on the mental part of the game, and c) learn to play within the pocket. C is the key. If he doesn't learn to make QUICK decisions within the pocket, he will fail. He's really a beginner at this part of playing QB. He is used to either having a long clock or moving around and buying time. The NFL is about making a quick decision and quick throw, most of the time, without that skill a QB is practically useless. See Case Keenum.
I hear you. At this point I'm honestly not sure what or who I want in the 1st. I know who I don't want. I understand your opinion of Manziel and others who feel the same way. I just think he has something Gabbert, Young, Russell, Leaf, Couch, Tebow, and other 1st round busts lacked. If O'Brien passes up on Manziel and we watch him turn another team around he'll be looking for an OC job within 3 years IMO. If he doesn't think he can work with him then I'm on board with whatever he chooses to do, but for his sake he better hope Johnny flops at the next level with another team.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
So if your coaching him do you encourage him to hang in there and read whats downfield (negating his mobile talent) and hope for him to develop OR do you give him the ball and a play while telling him...get me a first down no matter what? My gut says O'Brien is a very detail oriented-scripted individual and coupling him with a guy like Manziel could prove combustible. Maybe successful...but probably not. Sorry but Manziel just looks like the ANTI Brady to me.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I think the mobile talent is a secondary benefit that you don't really focus on, outside of running more bootlegs etc. You coach him on the basics of playing QB in the NFL, making quick reads, not holding on to the ball unnecessarily, recognizing the defense. That's where he really needs help. I see Manziel as a guy that doesn't translate into a day 1 starter at all. He has secondary tools, but he needs major work on the basics of playing QB in the NFL.
True even at the collegiate level. Brady was far less accurate, for fewer yards and negative rushing.
Good luck finding that "needle in the haystack" with the current brain trust in place. A guy with Brady's stats likely goes UDFA these days.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
I find that agreeable. Per the talking heads bridgewater is the most nfl ready day 1 and I want to include mettenberger as well as garrapolo as guys who can competently hit the field a bit faster then Manziel. Wether im wrong on the last two is an afterthought...how long do you think Manziel CAN sit and learn? Any shaky qb play ahead of Manziel might result in a fan riot. I don't think Manziel learning on the bench is a luxury that will last long. I will say it would've been a blast to see Kubiak's bootleg offense with someone like Manziel rather then concrete schaub.
It does suck that Manziel would of been fun to watch in in Kubiaks offense. A younger Schaub would probably be really good in OB's offense. Our timing sucks!!!!! It seems like it always has.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Clearly im not comparing college Brady to college Manziel. The argument instead is that Manziel is somewhat reckless and gives up on plays early whereas Brady is the prototype pocket passer acting within the system. Do people favoring Manziel acknowledge his penchant for abandoning scripted plays and improving or is that sacrilege? Do people who like Manziel genuinely think he'll be an effective jitter bug when he's 30 something?
Jerry Rice compared him to Steve Young. While I think that's a reach, when the GOAT says something like that it makes you think. To be honest I never watched Young at BYU or even in his early years in the NFL so I can't say if thats an accurate comparison or not.
The problem here is that you have fallen into the same trap as many other people. You have let his highlight scrambling plays effect your opinion of him. when in fact those plays make up a small percentage of his actual good plays. He makes one or two amazing scrambling big plays a game and all the sudden thats all he does.
The truth is Manziel makes more good plays from the pocket than he does outside of it. He completed 73.6% of his passes from the pocket for 3429 yards and 27 of his TD's. Thing is none of those plays were comparably highlight worthy so you don't hear about them.
I wouldn't call it sacrilidge but I would call it over reacting to think that will be his downfall as an NFL QB. Occasionally he does panic and abandon scripted plays and improvise but when he does he has the talent to pull it off. He has tremendous escapability and an uncanny ability to see the field while under durress.
He's intellegent and seems to be a fast learner. I don't see why people think he's incapable of toning it down. In college he was asked to run the ball a lot and yet he was very durable. He won't be having those designed runs anymore. Having said that, I really don't recall him ever taking a really big hit at A&M.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Steve young was a fantastic passer and typically played within the system...the comparison is somewhat accurate once he scrambled though. Young had that hell be damned hair on fire approach while running In the open field and It was every bit as captivating as watching Manziel run. If manziel can be half the passer young was he'll be a success.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
That's a good post and maybe I am blinded by scampering highlights. I should pursue more video. I was forthright in saying most of what I saw was highlights and very little game film. For the record, I cant say my impression of the guy has changed a lot...only that im compelled to watch more based on what you guys say. I still see a guy with an ok arm and sloppy mechanics who appears reckless with the ball. You may sale me on him as a pro qb but i'll have to see a lot more before I believe he's an O'Brien qb. Good feedback nonetheless.
That's an awful bold shot from someone who's watched nothing but highlights. You sure there ain't a bit of haterade in that opinion?
I think the problem with Vince, was that he couldn't handle diversity. He didn't know what to do, when he didn't have everyone in his corner, & for whatever reason he paid more attention to his detractors than his supporters.
Cam Newton. How different was what happened to him? He stuck it out, worked through the rough times & now he's back on top.
My point, is that what killed Vince Young's career, you can't predict that, you never know. People will tell you they did predict it, that they called it, that they knew he wasn't going to make it... but it was the off-field, in the head, pskhytzo sht that ruined his career. Had he stayed in Tennessee he would have been afforded a lot more leeway than he's been given elsewhere, because he's a first round pick. Same way we did with Carr, the way they're doing with Bradford, the way they're doing with Locker... even a glimpse of magic will keep you alive on the team that drafted you if you're a first round QB. Especially a top 5 pick.
JFF... bad times are coming & we'll see how he handles them, but if he's mentally strong enough, he'll figure this NFL thing out.
I'd tell him no hero sht until we need him to be a hero.
On first & 10, I don't need him to run 30s off the clock running 40 yards behind the LOS to pick up 5 yards... take what the defense gives you & move on to the next play.
On 3rd & 3 with 9 minutes left in the 1st, I don't need a hero. I need a jab. Like a boxer uses his jab early in a fight to read his opponents defense. I need Johnny to run the play we called, so we can get a read on how the defense is going to play.
Now... if we're down by two scores & we went 3 & out on our last four possessions....... I need some hero sht from somebody. If he can't figure out when we need a hero & when we don't, if he can't be that hero when we need him... then we can't win with him. That's the difference between Tony Romo & Drew Brees, or Aaron Rodgers.
That's the talking heads.
What's your opinion? How's he more ready to start than Aj McCarron, or Aaron Murray? How's he more ready to start than Tom Savage? All these guys played in pro systems. Murray & McCarron's numbers are comparable to Bridgewaters; completion percentage, YPA, TD/Int ratio, TD's per Attempt.... but they did it against tougher competition.
How is Bridgewater the most NFL ready da1 starter in this draft?
Texian
Hall of Fame
Most of the talking heads are Teddybots and like all good Teddybots they too seem to ignore his playing weight was 185 lbs and Teddy's questionable arm. And how Teddy's arm is even more questionable without the magic gloves. The talking heads almost to a person loved them some Reggie Bush.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Johnny Manziel interview at Jaguars team visit:
http://www.jaguars.com/media-galler...sonville/0a574bd1-2a2b-4b14-a904-dfab9d8711f6
http://www.jaguars.com/media-galler...sonville/0a574bd1-2a2b-4b14-a904-dfab9d8711f6
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
actually, the reggie bush fanatics then compare more with what LZ terms as the "Manziel-ots" now. This is b/c of the "he's the most exciting player in college football/playmaker" moniker both were dubbed in college.....
but you can also compare them in terms of both being undersized for their respective positions & the whole "circus coming to town" atmosphere both brought/will bring for all thier off-field nonsense.
.....but for you it's more fun to poke at TB fans.......your bias against TB knows no bounds.
Texian
Hall of Fame
It's one thing to be the most exciting player in football when you touch the ball on every offensive play of the game and quite another thing to be an exciting player and only touch the ball 10-12 times a game.
poking fun at TB fans must be in the eye of the pokee and not so much the poker. Saying that Teddy's playing weight was 185 pounds and that his arm is suspect is not poking fun at anyone. It's called an observation.
Say Watt
Hall of Fame
If by some miracle that happened, I'd be ecstatic. No doubt, that'd be the best case scenario, although I have made it no secret that personally, I'd draft him at 1-1 and not look back. Maybe then if a defender we likes falls into the late 1st, we trade up for him.
But I could definitely get behind Clowney/Mack/Watkins at 1-1 and Manziel in the late first.
Say Watt
Hall of Fame
Also, went and saw Draft Day last night. Thought it was an excellent movie, and I couldn't help but get a Manziel vibe from one of the parts.
During it, they mention Joe Montana. He was undersized at 6'2" and only 200 lbs, but he had that knack for winning football games. This is where Manziel comes in for me. Yes, he's small, but I can tell you from watching the guy every single game that there has not been another player that I have ever watched that wants to win more than Johnny Football. To top it off, Manziel has a lot more speed than Montana, thus giving him the ability to escape the pocket a bit and avoid some of the bigger hits.
During it, they mention Joe Montana. He was undersized at 6'2" and only 200 lbs, but he had that knack for winning football games. This is where Manziel comes in for me. Yes, he's small, but I can tell you from watching the guy every single game that there has not been another player that I have ever watched that wants to win more than Johnny Football. To top it off, Manziel has a lot more speed than Montana, thus giving him the ability to escape the pocket a bit and avoid some of the bigger hits.
John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL
Sounds like a jealous middle aged fat man.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I ate dinner at about the same time (in my apartment) so maybe I will be selected #1. If I am I promise to buy some maroon underwear.
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