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Clowney, then what?

Number19 said:
I understand this. It's been pointed out numerous times that defenses spend considerable, maybe majority, of the snaps in nickle and dime packages. But you still usually have your base defense. Crennel's base defense, at least the one he's most comfortable in since he's developed it over the years, is the 2-gap 34.

My question is, concerning Clowney, is he the the most effective three down defensive player in the draft for the schemes Crennel will be implementing? And do you take a player at 1-1 if he's not going to be a three down player?

If Clowney plays the weakside, playing DE or OLB depending on the called play, and is expected to have no coverage responsibilities, then it is imperative that we get an ILB on that side that can cover the short zone over the middle and outside.

Clowney, undoubtedly, is an elite edge rusher, but I do have questions on his effectiveness in run support. He obviously is not someone who has spent much time in the weight room, although this is correctable.

According to the charts, 40% of his sacks are "speed" sacks and 31% are "cover" sacks. 54% were "outside" rushes, 15% inside rushes and he did have 31% "bull" rushes. The charts also show he was "blocked" 100% of the time. And finally, the charts show that he had help from his team mates providing additional pressure 69% of the time.

This decision - taking Clowney at 1-1, will come down to Crennel's evaluation of Mercilus.
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There's more film on Bigfoot than Mercilus and Reed .
 
Number19 said:
I understand this. It's been pointed out numerous times that defenses spend considerable, maybe majority, of the snaps in nickle and dime packages. But you still usually have your base defense. Crennel's base defense, at least the one he's most comfortable in since he's developed it over the years, is the 2-gap 34.
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If RAC is staying current, his base defense is more QB oriented than it was when stoping the run was the first job of your defense.

Number19 said:
My question is, concerning Clowney, is he the the most effective three down defensive player in the draft for the schemes Crennel will be implementing? And do you take a player at 1-1 if he's not going to be a three down player?
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I'm sure Wade Phillips had no idea how our defense was going to look before we drafted Jj Watt.
 
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TexansFTW said:
I really like Max Bullough. I don't project him as a day 1 starter, and maybe not ever a starter, but I think he can develop into very solid depth very late in the draft and he has a nose for the football.

In the later rounds I'm often looking for OLine or Special Teams players. I like what he brings in special teams as he (hopefully) develops into an NFL level player....

Did you read the name wrong?
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mussop said:
Beat me to it on both responses.

I think number 19 was talking about Donald. Had to be.
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Beerlover, at post 1580, was responding to my post 1577, where I was commenting on Khalil Mack. Although Beerlover, in post 1580, switched context and brought Max Bullough into the conversation, he concluded his post by writing, "...leave Mack outside in space as edge rusher", thereby maintaining the link to Khalil Mack.

I was referring to the movement up the big boards by Khalil Mack, who generally is now being rated around the #5 spot; and I've seen at least one big board where he was listed at #3.
 
Number19 said:
Beerlover, at post 1580, was responding to my post 1577, where I was commenting on Khalil Mack. Although Beerlover, in post 1580, switched context and brought Max Bullough into the conversation, he concluded his post by writing, "...leave Mack outside in space as edge rusher", thereby maintaining the link to Khalil Mack.

I was referring to the movement up the big boards by Khalil Mack, who generally is now being rated around the #5 spot; and I've seen at least one big board where he was listed at #3.
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To which, I'm not discussing Khalil Mack draft grade or making a case he is not a top 10 talent, I really don't care, my point is why move him inside when you can address that position with a bigger, thumper like Max that fits Crennel system, much later in the draft.
 
beerlover said:
To which, I'm not discussing Khalil Mack draft grade or making a case he is not a top 10 talent, I really don't care, my point is why move him inside when you can address that position with a bigger, thumper like Max that fits Crennel system, much later in the draft.
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Yes, I understood that and have no problem with that. I was commenting on a previous comment that Mack only played one position ( as opposed to several OL prospects who could play at both RT and LT ) and was pointing out that Mack could play both inside and outside. This increases his versatility, in the event of injuries, as well as projecting him as a three down player regardless of the defense we are in.
 
infantrycak said:
Please explain. I think Wade used JJ Watt exactly as planned but got a much better player than hoped for.
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In Dallas, Spears, & Canty were more 2 gap type players. DeMarcus Ware was the focus. Then when Ratcliff started to excel he designed his defense to take advantage of it.

True enough, he probably planed to showcase Aldon Smith with Mario playing DE.... getting Watt, he just moved Mario to Aldon Smith's spot. But if rumors were true & we were actually targeting Patrick Peterson I'm sure our front 7 would have looked totally different & would have evolved differently as well.
 
thunderkyss said:
In Dallas, Spears, & Canty were more 2 gap type players. DeMarcus Ware was the focus. Then when Ratcliff started to excel he designed his defense to take advantage of it.

True enough, he probably planed to showcase Aldon Smith with Mario playing DE.... getting Watt, he just moved Mario to Aldon Smith's spot. But if rumors were true & we were actually targeting Patrick Peterson I'm sure our front 7 would have looked totally different & would have evolved differently as well.
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I'm totally confused.
 
infantrycak said:
This Robinson is going to be Ogden thing seems very flavor of the moment also. The guy wasn't even considered the best LT prospect when playing football stopped and now he is all but a Hall of Fame nominee. I challenged early on that Matthews (when he was the consensus #1 LT prospect) was no Pace or Boselli. Nobody came back with maybe not but Robinson is that good.
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I'll admit that I've been swayed by Robinson's combine performance and his possible "up side". If you recall, I was a Matthews proponent before I was swayed. Either works for me.

Matthews, like Bridgewater, may have already reached his ceiling. It's not a bad ceiling because they're both NFL ready, IMHO. But if Robinson is close to Matthews' level now AND he's bigger and stronger now AND he has room to get even better at his position, then he's my pick.
 
In this case we get Clowney and either Maziel or Matthews.

dagyzyda.jpg
 
I almost regret Clowney had such a "reportedly" dazzling combine performance because it tends to distract from his skill-sets as both an edge rusher and defender against rushing plays.
 
PapaL said:
In this case we get Clowney and either Maziel or Matthews.

dagyzyda.jpg
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I know I've called Cleveland a Blackhole for QBs & I didn't think Manziel would do well there. But Bridgewater could do some damage in Cleveland. That would be a pretty good pick for them. Then following up with Carlos Hyde... eh... would have been better, I think, had he took Matthews or Zack Martin.

St. Louis getting Watkins & Lewan, that's going to help Bradford for sure.

Odell Bekham jr going to Baltimore..... I don't see it, but I like it.

Aaron Donald going to Dallas... very interesting.
 
Scout's Take Blog: Draft observations by an ex-NFL player, scout
By Bucky Brooks
Clowney critiques going too far
I've been one of Jadeveon Clowney's harshest critics, but I believe the concerns about his work ethic and character have been greatly exaggerated at this point. While I certainly respect the dissenting opinion shared by an anonymous scout in a recent Milwaukee Journal Sentinel story about the South Carolina star, I've been in enough war rooms to know the difference between a legitimate character concern and a case of complacency. After studying Clowney extensively for the past two seasons, there is no doubt in my mind that his inconsistent effort and energy is simply a case of an ultra-talented player lacking the self-awareness to understand his deficiencies.

Now, I'm certainly not in love with Clowney's lackluster enthusiasm and hustle in some games, but I also understand that these poor habits were likely ignored on the practice field by the head coach, defensive coordinator and several defensive assistants. If the Gamecocks' coaching staff didn't emphasize running to the ball or playing from snap to whistle, I can't hold Clowney completely responsible for his actions on the field. He is simply doing what he's been coached to do without regard for the urgency and tempo needed to excel as a pro.

That's why it's important for scouts to observe top prospects in practice to assess their work habits, while also seeing if they've been pushed or challenged by their coaches. This information is critical for decision makers because it provides context and perspective on where a prospect is in his development and how well he will fit into the culture of the locker room. Most importantly, it allows a general manager and head coach to determine whether they have the ideal position coach or coordinator to teach, motivate and encourage a talented prospect to maximize his potential.

During my time with the Carolina Panthers, I watched John Fox and Marty Hurney take a similar approach with Julius Peppers. The eight-time Pro Bowler was regarded as a mercurial talent with a questionable motor when he entered the NFL in 2002, but the Panthers believed their locker-room culture and coaching staff would bring out the best in Peppers. The no-nonsense coaching styles of Mike Trgovac, Sal Sunseri and Jack Del Rio (who left Carolina after Peppers' rookie season) pushed Peppers to excel, helping him earn the Defensive Rookie of the Year Award at season's end. Additionally, the presence of veteran leaders Brentson Buckner and Mike Rucker created an environment of accountability in the meeting room that prompted Peppers to raise his level of performance to fit in with the group.

With that in mind, I believe it's important for teams considering Clowney to understand the makeup of their coaching staff and locker room. If there is strong leadership present in both areas, Clowney will thrive and fulfill the lofty expectations that will accompany his arrival in league. The collective peer pressure will help him practice and perform at a level that matches his talent. Given Clowney's impressive physical dimensions, athleticism and disruptive potential, I'm confident the freakishly talented playmaker can become a dominant player in the league, if put in the right environment.
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infantrycak said:
This Robinson is going to be Ogden thing seems very flavor of the moment also. The guy wasn't even considered the best LT prospect when playing football stopped and now he is all but a Hall of Fame nominee. I challenged early on that Matthews (when he was the consensus #1 LT prospect) was no Pace or Boselli. Nobody came back with maybe not but Robinson is that good.
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I picked Ogden out of thin air as the first tackle besides Duane Brown that came to mind not as an illustration of what Robinson (or Matthews, for that matter) is going to be but what Robinson/Matthews could grow in to.

And that's why I made sure to point out that other positions other than QB can bust and not live up to expectations, as well. You could pass on the next Peyton Manning to pick the next Robert Gallery or Mike Williams.

And that's why this is so exciting. Our FO has to look at these guys and make the assessment of which guys are going to develop and which guys are going to bust and which guys would do the most to improve our team's chances of winning SBs.
 
By Tom Pelissero

Jadeveon Clowney hasn’t been able to escape questions about his work ethic at the university of south carolina. But his preparation for the NFL Draft apparently hasn’t raised any concerns.

Anthony Hobgood, who trained Clowney at EXOS (formerly Athletes Performance) leading up to last month’s nfl scouting combine, says the potential no. 1 overall pick was “actually one of the best guys in our whole combine class” when it came to his approach.

“He’d be the first guy to show up in the morning. He’d be the first guy to breakfast,” Hobgood told USS Today sports. “He got some bad media coverage this past year, and I honestly think he’s very misunderstood. He listened. He knew what we asked him to do. He worked hard.”

Clowney confirmed he’s one of the draft’s most freakish athletes with his performance at the combine, where he ran the 40-yard dash in 4.53 seconds and posted a vertical jump of 37½ inches and a broad jump of 124 inches, all at 6-foot-5 and 266 pounds.

A decline in productivity as a junior in 2013 and less-than-flattering remarks from south carolina coach Steve Spurrier have raised flags for NFL scouts. But Clowney’s rare physical gifts never have been in doubt.

“His actual mechanics - he was so raw,” Hobgood said of his first impression of Clowney. “He’s good off of just sheer athletic ability, sheer raw talent. I told the guys, ‘if this guy gets in a good program, his upside’s insane.’”

According to Hobgood, the focus of Clowney's training for the Combine was on making his movements more efficient to improve his speed and acceleration. Among other things, trainers adjusted Clowney’s stance for the 40, which he ran faster than any other defensive lineman.

“He’s so powerful, when he pushes into the ground, his body travels a greater distance before the next time his foot hits the ground,” Hobgood said. “He was really a blank canvas when he got here, because there’s so many things we saw that we could improve upon. He’s just a natural athlete.

“Whoever picks him up has yet to see his best - and it’s not because of his effort.”
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Playoffs said:
By Tom Pelissero
if this guy gets in a good program
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Which is interesting. I know every club out there probably thinks they're that "good" program. Some here think we are.

Other than us, who do you think has a good program that would allow Clowney to flourish.

I think Atlanta would be a good place for him, Minnesota as well. I don't know much about what's going on in Buffalo, but I'd be interested in a Mario/Clowney front.
 
infantrycak said:
OK, but the Texans aren't in the 8-10 range looking at drafting AJ McCarron or Mettenberger in the top 1st when they are graded in the 2nd or 3rd. The Texans are in Carolina's spot at 1.1 getting to pick any QB they want AND there is more than 1 graded in the top half of the 1st round.

I understand what you and TPN are getting at. Last year would have been the perfect illustration to me where there simply wasn't a QB it was reasonable to take near the top of the draft. That isn't the case this season even if none of them are Luck.




This Robinson is going to be Ogden thing seems very flavor of the moment also. The guy wasn't even considered the best LT prospect when playing football stopped and now he is all but a Hall of Fame nominee. I challenged early on that Matthews (when he was the consensus #1 LT prospect) was no Pace or Boselli. Nobody came back with maybe not but Robinson is that good.
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Prisoners of the moment. Over the years you see most message boards are like this. It was pretty funny reading that Stephen Hill thread.
 
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Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock
3 good players don't equal a great in my opinion. Quality over quantity, unless quantity will cash in more.

My point is, it would take that much to get rid of Clowney. Picks are just picks. Have to acquire elite talent

The trade request may be too rich, but I'd be fine if no one took me up on it as the reason to acquire picks is to acquire talent.

I would either select Jadeveon Clowney or trade it away for something massive. Like, two 1st, a 2nd, a 3rd in '14, 1st in '15 & 1st in '16

Just my opinion & I haven't watched every one yet, but if I were the Houston Texans, there would be only two choices for me with the #1 pick...

The biggest improvement Clowney needs to make is on missed tackles in the backfield. He misses too often on straight line shots for TFLs.

Clowney needs to get rid of his swim move & his loses too often with it. Tends to get too high on running plays at times.

I haven't seen him take play offs or play down, but I have seen him take his play up another notch in key moments or when he's pissed.

I've also seen him chase a RB 20+ yds downfield & make the tackle after stunting to the opposite side of the center. Clowney

He's often too fast for the down block & too strong for a puller.

People question his heart & say that he quits. I studied the Florida game in which he was still destroying them in the 4th qtr, thou down 29

Much like JJ Watt, he can't be left unblocked on plays designed to go away due to their reach, size, quickness in pursuit.

Jadeveon's first step is deadly, inside or out. This makes it impossible for an OT to cheat one way or the other.

Clowney has an insane Change of Direction, speed, & size combo. He doesn't have to rely just on speed rush or power.

When an elite OT starts to get the best of Clowney, he's been asked to line up wide as far as the 9. In this space, his COD is a nightmare.

Clowney still can improve w/ his arms, but that makes him even that more scarier. He slams into the line at times, instead of using tech.

Clowney basically was an equivalent to a shutdown CB, closing off half the field vs the run or forcing 1/4 of the O to focus on him.

One team was running away from Clowney so often that USC asked him to "float" back to the middle to help vs the run. Hard to get sacks/ TFLs

I noted during the Texans' season that Mercilus & Brooks couldn't separate from pulling OGs. Not an issue for Clowney.

Offenses would set up chips, run majority of plays away from JC. Double or triple when running in the face of him, drag a WR to pull him.

If stats concern you w Clowney, watch a season of his games & pay attention to all the players that make plays as a reaction to his actions.

In the UNC game he also played everything that USC asked him to. From the 1 tech to standing.

Jadeveon showed tremendous growth in this part of his game from his freshman to sophomore seasons. (Leverage / Arms)

In 2011 at 18, he didn't play w/ great leverage or know how to use his arms well. The Georgia game vs Cordy Glenn & TE Orson Charles shows

Clowney has had his tape of him at 18 yrs of age criticized more than 5th yr seniors coming out.

Against UNC Clowney was chipped, doubled, tripled, most of the night & wasn't in his best shape. Outside of that game, I don't see the ?s.

I keep waiting to see a game in which he took plays off. The UNC game led to a myth.

I've just spent the last 2 weeks chasing ghosts. I've studied half of the games from Clowney's freshman, sophomore, & junior seasons....
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I would either select Jadeveon Clowney or trade it away for something massive. Like, two 1st, a 2nd, a 3rd in '14, 1st in '15 & 1st in '16
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LOL. Sounds like a lot of the trade scenarios people have optimistically been floating across this board all offseason.
 
Playoffs said:
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Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock
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Does anyone here think Jayson Braddock is that good? I personally think he's stupid.

Not that I totally disagree w/ this assessment, because much of it is true, other than the fact that this Godlike Human he watches on a football field doesn't exist. Or that Brett Smith = Brett Favre (but faster).
 
Chris Mortenson on ESPN about 1-1:
I think they take Jadeveon Clowney. I can't find teams that say there's a franchise QB in this draft... Bill Polian likes to say you need two pass rushers to get people on the ground, especially Andrew Luck... But I know this: their LB coach is Mike Vrabel, their DL coach is Bill Kollar -- people in this league know those guys will get the maximum out of Clowney...
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TexansFTW said:
Does anyone here think Jayson Braddock is that good? I personally think he's stupid.

Not that I totally disagree w/ this assessment, because much of it is true, other than the fact that this Godlike Human he watches on a football field doesn't exist. Or that Brett Smith = Brett Favre (but faster).
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I unfollowed him on twitter because I felt he was a waste of my time. He's just another average Joe.
 
Playoffs said:
tweets read bottom(oldest)-to-top
Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock
I noted during the Texans' season that Mercilus & Brooks couldn't separate from pulling OGs. Not an issue for Clowney.
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I think Clowney's biggest asset, is that he's very quick to diagnose plays. Where Merci & Brooks are still looking for the ball, Clowney would have done located it & exploded through the ball carrier..... If his game translates that is.

I've never been on the Clowney wagon. I see all the positives, I'm concerned about his medical history, I don't even think about the "motivation" thing. I think he's going to have a heck of a career, though he'll most likely fall short of the expectations.

But if the Texans do take him, I'm going to be extremely stressed about how they plan to address the OL. We had no answer at RT & our OG will be a free agent.... to think, we could have cut Wade last season & saved $5M
 
TexansFTW said:
Does anyone here think Jayson Braddock is that good?
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JB has his own take, does not fall prey to groupthink. He was out front on players like Kaepernick, now Smith. He's not alone on Smith, as 30 year scout Gabriel also on board. I like unique viewpoints -- makes me recheck the tape/challenges my opinion.

CloakNNNdagger said:
Thanks for posting this. Looks like Hobgood's statements strongly strengthen my impression of Spurrier's negative comments.
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Yes, to an extent. Still the "lead a horse to water..." idiom applies, imo. He'll have to learn or die at the next level.
 
So this dude says clowney change of direction is insane,yet most everyone else says he desnt change directions well. How can most people say he can't really bend or change directions ,yet bradock says his cod is insane? Somebod lying.
 
I almost fell victim to the troll and numbers taken from one moment in time. Look at the game film. What does that tell you? Screw what a player does in shorts. What does he do w pads on?
 
thunderkyss said:
Which is interesting. I know every club out there probably thinks they're that "good" program. Some here think we are.

Other than us, who do you think has a good program that would allow Clowney to flourish.

I think Atlanta would be a good place for him, Minnesota as well. I don't know much about what's going on in Buffalo, but I'd be interested in a Mario/Clowney front.
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Teams like Stl, Atl, NYJ, Balt, Chi, Gb or good teams like Sea, SF, Ne, Phiily, , even Ariz. In fact he will succeed on most teams and be great on quite a few.
 
thunderkyss said:
Which is interesting. I know every club out there probably thinks they're that "good" program. Some here think we are.

Other than us, who do you think has a good program that would allow Clowney to flourish.

I think Atlanta would be a good place for him, Minnesota as well. I don't know much about what's going on in Buffalo, but I'd be interested in a Mario/Clowney front.
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Ironic that Clowney is the guy Texans really wanted when they drafted Mario :clown:
 
HOU-TEX said:
Personally, I think he could even be better as a 3-4 olb than he was a DE. His first two steps are just as quick if not quicker than most. Look at Mario for example. He wasn't as flexible and quick as Clowney, but he was coming on strong as an olb in Wade's scheme.

I keep seeing McGinnest's name mentioned when talking Clowney. Well, I think Clowney can become much more dominant than McGinnest ever was
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The greatest thing which we can't speak of is intelligence as in football intelligence. The Linebacker has to recognize whether it's a run or pass quickly and adjust. I don't think many believe Clowney has this football instinct, but are afraid to say it because it might not be PC to say a black player lacks intelligence of any kind. Unfortunately, it's leftover eggshells from a more racist time.

But perhaps I'm wrong. Reading between the lines is an art and I'm not the artist in the family. But it's the only reason I can think of that there is hesitation with playing him at LB. Just rushing the passer is quite easy if you have the tools. LBs and DBs are a different matter.
 
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