Texian
Hall of Fame
Today I am predicting Greg Robinson will be the first OT drafted.
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Clowney, then what?
- Thread starter thunderkyss
- Start date
Today I am predicting Greg Robinson will be the first OT drafted.
Exactly. If there is a franchise LT in this draft, we should take him. If that moves our best OT to the right side of the line.... so be it. It elevates the whole team a lot more than finding a suitable RT.
Same thing for corner back. We've got a lot of money tied up in the position, but we didn't see elite level play from either last season. Take the elite Corner, move Kj to safety or cut Jjo. The whole team is a lot better off.
Instead of looking for a back up for Arian Foster, we should be looking for an inexpensive replacement.
& I love Arian, Duane, & Kj. But we need to get to the next level.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Yeah,JoeThomas all world has been on the team with one of the worse records in football. Remember robert gallery who was taken in front of ben and rivers? Franchise left tackle means nothing. Who are the franchise left tackles playing this week in the afc? Denver set the every offensive record in the nfl and clady was in street clothes all year. Luck,brady,nor rivers have franchise left tackles or rt's for that matter.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
When I postedthe video,everyone for the most part agreed clowney was doubled 2 times or so and chipped 4 times maybe. Most of his action,he wasn't even blocked and set free. Not to mention wide 9 which really stresses your inside backers,remember philly. That's why all thlse double and tripled every play or most of the time were ridiculous accusations. Not only did richardson handle him,the right tackle on the flip,who I don't even know was handling him.
I think he's intriguing and he needs a lot of technique work. Even last year when people were calling him the next whoever after the michigan play,he knifed and made the play. I'm not against instincts,but as a de or olb, you should alwas keep your open side arm free to take blocks and turn everything. If you notice,not just on those clips,he was giving up contain.
If you go look at aldon smith,jj watt,von miller,robert quinn and guys like that,even coming in they were a lot more polished technique wise than clowney. That's not to say he won't or can't learn with good coaching. As I said before,even the mario/julius take plays off are minor compared to clowney. As posted also,its not like he didn't have a lot talent on that defense either.
But there's no Luck, Brady, Rivers in this draft. If there were, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Total bs! Go back and read what people thought of rivers. In fact, acorsi,the giants gm said if the manning deal fell through,he was prepared to take big ben. There are always premeditated convo about propects. Last yr,all the people said what? Wait till next yr when bridgewater,boyd,murry,and fales come out. People were saying there will be 4 franchise qbs,now people are saying wait till next yr? Same cycle bro. Going into his jr yr,nobody had rg3 as a top qb prospect. Everyone and their mama said if bridgewater was the best qb prospect in cfb last yr as a sophmore.
Point is, don't ride along,do your own research and make your own conclusions. I never thought Joeckel was that good. He was destroyed by margus hunt and corey lemoniore. He reaches and is on the ground a lot. I thought the best lt propect was lane johnson. I can watch enough games to make my own conclusions. The only flag most come up with in regards to bridgewater is his frame. Not his arm,presence,poise, or football iq. How many qbs come out with so few questions and are not franchise qbs?
& last year at this time we were thinking our 2014 draft pick would be in the high 20s saying Boyd had just as good a shot at being a franchise QB as Bridgewater. Mettenberger showed lots of promise & "we" thought Murray could be had in the 2nd or 3rd.
We were talking about the same guys, but they were going to be groomed as Matt's replacement in a year or so, not starting right away.
As far as I can tell, I'm one of the few who carried that view of these QBs into this year. The class was supposed to be deep with QB talent, & no sure fire franchise QB. & while Bridgewater played well, imo he didn't play well enough to over look the discrepencies between him & the prototypical franchise QB.
I've watched a bunch of him & my opinion is that his mechanics aren't near as "perfect" as some would have you believe. I don't believe he reads his progressions well. I do not like his footwork at all... & though many QBs hold the ball at chest level, I've never liked that technique. I think his receivers helped him out more than most want to admit & I think he either has a poor idea of ball placement or he's not as accurate as "they" say.
Do I think he can be a franchise QB? Sure. Do I think he has a better shot than Manziel, Bortles, Mettenberger, or even McCarron? Not really. He may very well be more prepared to start day 1 than the other guys, but that doesn't make him the "best" QB in this draft.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
You can sell me on bortles, I've watched enough to understand Texian lovefest. You can almost sell me on manziel except with his sloppiness inside the pocket and his lack of throwing the ball on time. The 2 qbs you can never sell me on are mccarron and mettenberger. With mccarron, the bowl game only solidifies what I and most people already knew. Can't drive the ball without a clean pocket,crumbles under duress. The qb with the jets was a winner with the talent they had. When you can sit ,without any worries in the pocket,that's a pretty job even in the sec. Unfortunately,that's not really nfl way of living. Mettenburger has been awful until this year and he's only looked avg even with pro style coaching. Even then,he again will have probably 2 wrs drafted in the 1st 35 picks. When you have players like that,you should look a lot better than what he has looked.
bhsman
Rookie
Awful = actually played well, going by your comments about Clowney. That seems to a be a running theme with you.
No one gets double and triple teamed all the time. It's not even about that. It's about how much attention does he get. How much game planning is there going on for him. If the play is being run away from him of course he will be single blocked. If it's a quick three step timing pass most likely he'll get one guy blocking him. It's the plays that are ran in his direction or the five step drop pass plays that you have to focus on.
And another thing. He is one of the best players in a long time at setting the edge. You have to understand his role in certain situations. Sometimes his responsibility is to turn the play inside. To make sure the offensive player doesn't get to the outside.
revan
Waterboy
Before the 2013 season I was talking to my little brother telling him how lucky we would be if we could by some miracle end up with him. This of course was thinking Schaub wouldnt completely implode and we would actually get the number one draft pick. Now that we actually have the power to get a player like Clowney, I realize we need a QB more than another freak of nature DE. Two JJ Watt's would not have saved this past season. I was also hoping Keenum would be the answer to our QB problems and when we were fighting for the number one spot I hoped that he would pick it up and show us that we didnt need to address QB with our number one overall pick. At this point QB makes more sense than this awesome freak of nature talent.
See but this means you'd be drafting with your #1 overall purely on the basis of need. There has to be some balance of supply & demand, or you are going to end up with inferior personnel all the way around your depth chart.
Just look at last years Draft. Despite being a relatively "low-value" position, the league still drafted 2 OG in the top 10 picks of the Draft because they were the best at their position in years, while on the other hand there was only one QB taken in the entire first round and even then not in the top 15 picks.
An edge-rusher like Clowney is at a highly-valued position, but how good are the QBs in this Draft ? Is Manzeil this years Jake Locker and Bridgewater another Blain Gabbert ?
If we were to draft Taj Boyd at 2-1, or Aj McCarren at or Zach Mettenberger would that satisfy our QB need? We'd still be able to take Clowney.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
True to a degree but when doing the latter, you tend to force the fit into the scheme.
All around player to fit your scheme > 1 trick pony premium talent.
In Clowney's case i think you'd be forcing the fit too much in Crennel's scheme if that's way we wind up going.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
This is exactly how guys like Glenn Dorsey bust. Everyone saw the talent he possessed when he came out, but KC drafted him and employed him as a 3-4 DE which did not suit his skill set at all. It's not that he wasn't talented (he was) but the team saw the talent and took it instead of thinking about where or how he fit with the current construction of the team.
See but that's azz-backwards because the scheme should accomodate the talent, not vice versa. Even though Wade's defense failed often this past year, he had the right philosophy. He made it work for JJ, as he did for Cushing, and look at the different types of nose-tackles Wades had in his defenses,
which brings me to Dorsey. He was a great 3-tech DT in the SEC at LSU, right ? So what do the Chiefs do when they draft him ? Right, they stick him in a 2-gap defense which was a waste of very expensive talent, as he was a top 5 pick as I recall. Just think what Wade would have done with Dorsey ? I suspect he would have made a much better use of his abilities than KC did.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Before Schaub's meltdown, my dream was to make some moves and get Taj Boyd at the top of the 2nd.
I still would not hate Boyd but it's taking more of a risk at the QB position and is that something we really want to do.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I don't think that's so cut-and-dry.
Some coaches have a scheme and don't have much budge. And they can make that work but they have to get the right players.
Some coaches have a scheme but do have some budge. They try to conform and morph to make do with whatever they've got.
Either one is OK and it changes how you draft. When a team is putting together their draft board, they're taking this into consideration and they're cutting players off their board left and right. So when they choose BPA, it's a totally dependent on what they do and the types of players they're looking for.
I think that's what you do, unless you're sold that Bortles/Bridgewater is that guy.
Don't use that 1-1 on the guy you think has the best chance just because he was the only one lucky enough to play in a pro system. Accumulate talent. Accumulate draft picks. Continue to take chances on 6th, 7th, & undrafted guys.... take a guy in the 3rd round if he excites you. But the most important thing is to accumulate picks so that you have the freedom/ability to move up in the draft including the 1st round if the guy you love shows up.
If I'm Kansas City, I'm following the same plan. Alex Smith is a starter in this league, he can win some games & help them be successful, but he's no more likely to win a Super Bowl than Schaub was. If they were in love with Bortles & felt they had to move up to 5 to get him, they'll have to give up their whole draft to get him... & that might be ok for them & their roster. But it would be much better if they had 2 first this year. They could trade the two firsts & next years to get their QB, & still have 6 picks in this draft.
I'm not in love with any of the QBs in this draft. The Texans might be. If they pick Bridgewater, I'm not going to be happy about it, but you know me. I'll be pumping the sunshine & predicting a 19-0 season.
Unless he weighs in under 210 lbs.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
.
Watt & Clowney aren't the same situation...not even close imo.
-We picked Watt knowing what we were going to run..Clowney, not so much.
-Watt's best attribute was his motor..in stark contrast with Clowney's motivational issues.
-Watt was also universally thought to be a 3-4 guy. I don't think people have a real handle on what Clowney will be except a guy who can rush the passer.
it's also much easier for a traditional 3-4 D-lineman type to find a spot and/or conform & be productive on a 4-3 defense than it is the other way around.
The point here is that great players will succeed in any scheme & we certainly don't know if Clowney is/will be a great player or not..especially if he's put into a 3-4 scheme that in all liklihood isn't going to accentuate his best attributes.
Oh.. I'm pretty sure Wade didn't make anything work for JJ... JJ just made it work for JJ by being a straight up beast...
.
Watt & Clowney aren't the same situation...not even close imo.
-We picked Watt knowing what we were going to run..Clowney, not so much.
-Watt's best attribute was his motor..in stark contrast with Clowney's motivational issues.
-Watt was also universally thought to be a 3-4 guy. I don't think people have a real handle on what Clowney will be except a guy who can rush the passer.
it's also much easier for a traditional 3-4 D-lineman type to find a spot and/or conform & be productive on a 4-3 defense than it is the other way around.
The point here is that great players will succeed in any scheme & we certainly don't know if Clowney is/will be a great player or not..especially if he's put into a 3-4 scheme that in all liklihood isn't going to accentuate his best attributes.
Oh.. I'm pretty sure Wade didn't make anything work for JJ... JJ just made it work for JJ by being a straight up beast...
Well said.
When I said Wade made it work for JJ, don't get all defensive like I'm saying JJ wouldn't be the player he is without Wade, because I'm saying any such thing. But he did put him in a defensive scheme where he played in the gap and also moved around where he was inside, then on the edge. It maximized JJs opportunities to utilize his tremendous skills. Believe me, if Crennel comes in here and puts JJ in a traditional 2-gap 3-4 then he won't be near as productive as he's been up to now..
Watt & Clowney aren't the same situation...not even close imo.
-We picked Watt knowing what we were going to run..Clowney, not so much.
-Watt's best attribute was his motor..in stark contrast with Clowney's motivational issues.
-Watt was also universally thought to be a 3-4 guy. I don't think people have a real handle on what Clowney will be except a guy who can rush the passer.
it's also much easier for a traditional 3-4 D-lineman type to find a spot and/or conform & be productive on a 4-3 defense than it is the other way around.
The point here is that great players will succeed in any scheme & we certainly don't know if Clowney is/will be a great player or not..especially if he's put into a 3-4 scheme that in all liklihood isn't going to accentuate his best attributes.
Oh.. I'm pretty sure Wade didn't make anything work for JJ... JJ just made it work for JJ by being a straight up beast...
Far as Clowney goes, tremendous talent like JJ but it's up to whoever his NFL DC is to fully utilize his talents, unless they would rather draft a lesser talent just because he's more compatible. Atleast that's my take on it.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
I the scheme vs player thing in regards to dorsey. He was drafted by herm edwards who we know is a 1 gap guy. They viewed him as a 3 tech. Herm got fired,pioli comes in and now they're a 3-4 and dorsey is stuck playing 5 tech. Guess what? He signed with 49ers, a 3-4 team. A lot of players can play a 3 tech or t tech.
2 JJ Watt's may not be the answer. But reaching for a QB because you need one is the reciepe for yrs of more of the same/failure.
revan
Waterboy
It could go the same for Clowney, will he be another Merry O Williams or a Julius Peppers?. If he had gon lights out this season too, no one would even be talking about the other players in the draft. But now, even me who would not mind one bit seeing Clowney in a Texans jersey, wonders if Clowney will take plays off for us.
I think with the talent we have on offense we could be a good offense with Boyd. Boyd had a quieter year this year but we can't deny his talent.
I've seen plenty of Bridgewater to know we won't be reaching. Any other QB I will agree with you.
Allstar
Bona fide
We all agree with this sentiment. It all boils down to whether O'Brien and Smith see Teddy or any other QB as a franchise guy. If they do, we go QB. If not, we go Clowney/Barr or whoever they have slated as BPA.
Of course you only take a QB if you think he is worthy of the pick. That doesnt mean he has to be the best player, but rather he has to have the most value for your team. So you might think Clowney is he better player, but Bridgewater will help you Build a better team.
I wouldn't call it settling if you pick a player that doesnt seem to be on Mannings or Lucks Level coming out of college. You need a good QB to win a superbowl and those are hard to come by - and if you think you can get one in this draft you take him.
Give me a trade back to #4 with Cleveland (4 , 26 , 68 & next years #1)... they take Bridgewater , Rams take one of Clowney or Matthews , Jax takes Bortles .... we get Manziel and a bounty of picks this year & next.
4 Johnny Manziel
25 Jace Amaro
33 Trent Murphy.
65 JaWuan James or Morgan Moses
68 Shane Skov
No way Cleveland gives up that much for the first overall. I think expecting their 4 and the Colts pick is reasonable, but adding in their #68 an their 2015 1st rounder is expecting way too much in my opinion. Although I do like your first three picks, Manziel-Amaro-Murhpy
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Given that everyone and their dog expects 2-3 QBs to be taken in the top 5 and 3-4 in the top 10, taking any of them isn't a reach to me.
I can't argue with that logic & wonder why it's taken so long for someone to express it.
However, to admit it as the primary reason to draft whoever, we'll have to admit that said QB is not "worth" the 1-1. Personally, I think it's that honesty that would help the Texans properly develop "said QB"
Well , given the bust potential of all three .... any of them could be a reach. The driving force here is the demand for the position.
That pick is worth more now than ever before with the rookie scale contracts. That's actually less than what Washington gave up to move up to #2.
Washington gave up 3 first round picks and a second rounder.
With Houston needing a QB in such a bad way , to get them to give up their choice of the three , a team is really going to have to come up with a significant offer .... I would accept nothing short of 4 , 24 & 36 (or something similar if the deal isn't with Cleveland) if I wasn't getting a #1 next year.
This! I don't understand when people say, I would trade down and take Manziel at four but not at number 1. If he's (or any other player) good enough to take at 4, he's good enough to take at 1.
Allstar
Bona fide
I think the logic is that Manziel is a pick we could settle on if awarded additional compensation, but not worth taking if that's all we get.
bhsman
Rookie
Why get him at 1-1 when you could get him at 4 and some picks? That's just straight-up value.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
If you can that is fine. If you can't then it doesn't make him a reach at 1-1.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
The talent dictates the value. Washington was head over heels for Griffin. That's why they gave up what they did. You would need a team to fall similarly in love with a prospect this year to net that kind of trade. We're #1 and most people on this board want no part of the pick. What makes you think another team feels differently?
If a QB needy team like us doesn't like any of the QB's at #1, then why would another team trade up to be in that same position?
& the talent level in the draft. If there are only 6 elite players, 4 non-elite players will be taken in the top 10. As important as QB is..... plus the aforementioned need....
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
I agree, taking Bridgewater or Manziel in the top 5 is not a reach. Both have been regarded as top prospects for over a year and have reason to be mentioned. I think Bortles would be a reach top 5, but that's because I think his stock has been artificially hyped by media and draftniks because he has the size that TB and JFF lack. That's just my opinion though.
It's all a matter of opinion. Steelb doesn't like the QB's at the top of this draft so, in his opinion, it's a reach to take one.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
You trade back, not because you expect someone specific to be there, but if you don't CARE who's there when you get there.
If you've got 5 guys with the same general grade, then you can trade back to the 5th spot and be assured that one of your guys will be there for you.
Wouldn't it be funny if we trade back, pick Sammy Watkins, and then use our new draft picks to trade back into the first and draft Tajh Boyd. We'd be re-uniting Tajh with both Sammy and Deandre and adding AJ into the mix. We'd have the strongest corps of WRs in the world and a guy that already has chemistry with two of them. Talk about crazy trading/drafting scenarios.
If you've got 5 guys with the same general grade, then you can trade back to the 5th spot and be assured that one of your guys will be there for you.
Wouldn't it be funny if we trade back, pick Sammy Watkins, and then use our new draft picks to trade back into the first and draft Tajh Boyd. We'd be re-uniting Tajh with both Sammy and Deandre and adding AJ into the mix. We'd have the strongest corps of WRs in the world and a guy that already has chemistry with two of them. Talk about crazy trading/drafting scenarios.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
TBH that is a scenario that does hold some appeal.
But you'd still be settling for what appears to be a mediocre QB.
bah007
Hall of Fame
I can't imagine a scenario where Boyd isn't available at #33. If we fall in love and just have to have him then we trade up because he's a QB. But at #33 I'm 99% sure he will be sitting there waiting for us.
I like the idea of Boyd with AJ, Watkins, and Hopkins. I waver on whether Boyd could be a franchise QB but with those weapons I wouldn't be against taking a shot.
So... you see a suitable OT in the third? Or at least within our reach?
I'd be more excited about that lineup than I would TB/Manziel/Bortles.
bah007
Hall of Fame
There's a chance that Morgan Moses or JuWaun James is there at the top of the third. Both are RTs only.
You are right , the majority here , it seems at least to this point would rather trade the 1:1. BUT .... that majority isn't an overwhelming one nor is it anywhere close to everyone .... All it takes is ONE owner or GM to fall in love with one of these prospects and you have the same situation.
If you offer that QB needy team enough compensation ..... and one of the top three prospects who are separated by little ...
There have also been rumblings that McNair likes Johnny Football too ....
Clowney is everything yet nothing you want as the #1 overall pick.
Scares the crap outa me ..... could be a monster , could be worse than JAG. If I'm making that gamble , its going to be at QB given the current circumstances.