BullBlitz
Section 331
Seriously doubt that AJ can keep up with JJ.
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All Encompassing Matt Schaub Thread
- Thread starter mussop
- Start date
Seriously doubt that AJ can keep up with JJ.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Doubt it all you want. AJ was a collegiate sprint champion (both 60 and 100 meter). JJ not even close. AJ has always been at the top in fastest man competitions in the NFL. JJ has said both publicly and privately (yes I know someone in position to make this assertion) AJ is faster.
Having said that, I would not be surprised if JJ beat AJ to 15 yds down field. AJ has long and deceptive speed. He's a long strider. His primary event was 100 m. He doesn't look as fast as he is. JJ busts returns based on having wiggle and then sufficient speed.
Bottom line Flacco underthrew that ball. Flaccco has a big arm but I tell people all the time there is a ton of discretion in trying to hit a receiver 40 yards down the field. There are lots of reasons it happens. Its funny how people are much less critical of QB's who have bad judgement and consitently overthrow receivers like Carr.
BullBlitz
Section 331
Thanks. I will.
Acting like Matt doesn't either is just foolish though. Receivers were making plays for flacco. My point was that flacco under throws Jacoby and Jacoby makes a hell of a play. We have one player on our team capable of doing that. Their third received makes that play, oh and Flacco was throwing to open revievers. That TD was a nice throw but the guy had his man clearly beat.
Mike
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Yes. He threw two.
I don't really want to get into this pile it on Schaub thing. But my answer to why I'll give Flacco a pass on an underthrown ball & not give Schaub that same pass stands.
Flacco has been the better QB in January, in the regular season Matt was clearly the better of the two.
eh... the story book is still open. To me, being elite is about playing at a high level over a long period of time. I don't think Flacco has done the "long period of time" thing. He's played well, very well in the post season over the last two years. But in the regular season, he's avg.
Schaub has been better than avg since he's been here. The only thing Matt's been missing has been wins, but wins is more of a team thing. Over the last two/three years, his win percentage has been shooting up & I think that's going to continue to trend up as the team continues to get better.
It's hard to believe, but Schaub's only 31 years old. He's still got a lot of time ahead of him. He's going to put together some play off wins & he's going to win a Super Bowl or two.
Jacoby and crab tree took two passes and beasted their way into the end zone. If our receivers made the kind of plays that flaccos did there is no telling how good we could be. Our recieving core flat out doesnt make either of those playd unless AJ makes it.
Mike
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Stafford has been fine and Cam hit a sophomore slump at the beginning of the year. I'd rather have both.over Schaub. And this isn't really like the Rockets either.
ThaShark316
#28
...
Last edited:
Which is funny. A few years ago, all that matters was the Ws.... now, that's not good enough. Matt's got to look pretty while we win.
You want to give up on a QB who averages 93 QB rating over the last 6 years, 64% completion rating, 20 TD/yr, he's won 75% of his games over the last two years for a guy who cries on the sideline when he's not winning.
I like Cam Newton, I like to watch him play. But just because he's more mobile does not mean we'll win more games. Romo is more mobile than Schaub , Kolb is more mobile than Schaub..... everybody out there is more mobile than Schaub but very few of them have more wins than Schaub over the last two years. Roethlisberger, a SB winning QB doesn't have as many wins as Schaub over the last two years. Schaub has more play off wins than that mobile QB over the last two years.
Trust me, I do not think Schaub is the best QB in the league, or even close. But I would not trade Schaub for a virtually unproven QB that plays a style that has had limited success in this league.
Just doesn't make sense to me.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
See, if we had Newton or Stafford,I believe we would win more games. Put Schaub on Carolina or Detroit and they are worse. He doesng have what it takes to get the team where we want he. He is a backup. Newtown and Stafford are young qbs with much more potential. This is a qb friendly system, where Schaub gets open by himself with no one around him, yet still can't hit a receiver in stride unless he is in Denver, or run for the first down when it is four yards away. Schaub's style of weak-armed, immobile, pocket passer stinks.
I'd love to have him as a backup though.
LonerATO
All Pro
That's on Les for not wanting to actually tear it all down and rebuild all of those years, but they essentially rebuilt the team this year and have a chance at competing in the future.
If what you're saying is true, Jake Plummer would have won a Super Bowl in Denver. Shanahan would not have had to "adapt" his system to accomodate RG3... heck, Grossman & Beck would have gotten their team into the play offs. Or at least had winning seasons. But they couldn't win more than 6 games in this "system"
There are things that Stafford & Newton can do that Matt can't; but because of those things, there are things they won't do that Matt does & does very well. There will be some games we'll win that we wouldn't have with Matt, but there are going to be games we lose that we wouldn't have with Matt. It's nice to think everything else would have been the same, just add "young mobile QB"
But it don't work that way.
What do we have that Carolina doesn't have? Put Matt Schaub on that team & they win the T.O.P. Their defense gives up less yards, because they aren't on the field. Same thing in Detroit. Ndamukong Suh isn't Jj Watt, but he's much better when he's sitting on the sideline all day & coming in to explode for 3 or 5 minutes every 30 minutes or so.
Chances are that the Panthers are going to bounce back next year & get close to something but the talk is still going to be about Cam Newton needing to get better from the pocket. Stafford has to get better from the pocket. RG3, Wilson, & Kaepernick are going to have to get better from the pocket........ there is no way around it.
& it's not like Matt is "scared" to throw the ball. I know that's what everyone is saying now, but he still threw for 4000 yards, with one WR. Andre had another 1500 yard season.
I know it's just stats, but nobody wants to hear about us winning 12 games in the regular season, or a game in the play offs.
Everything they're saying about Schaub right now was said just 6 weeks ago about last nights Super Bowl MVP. Same things were said about Matt Ryan. Same thing (can't win the big game, don't win in the play offs) was said about Peyton Manning.
I think everyone is just a little too emotional right now. Hopefully by September everyone will get their faith back in Matt Schaub & I can go back to harping on his short comings.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Both QBs last night have cannons for arms. I wouldn't say arm strength defines the position, but good grief, they were flinging it practically every throw. Watching these youngins play the QB position the past couple years is really beginning to wear on me. Especially having gone through what we went through the last 4-6 games.
I've never really been for or against Schaub, but it's been getting very hard to keep my balance on the fence lately
I've never really been for or against Schaub, but it's been getting very hard to keep my balance on the fence lately
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Flacco in the playoffs....11 TDs, 0 interceptions and a 124.0 QB rating in the Super Bowl. Give me a break. He is WAY better than Schaub. Once they got rid of Cam Cameron and let him play if kind of ball he was 5-2 with 15 TDs and 2 ints. He hadn't thrown an int since December 16th.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I'm not sure anyone's comparing the two anymore. At least not with a straight face. I'd easily take either QB from last night over Schaub
In the play-offs... yeah. I'll give him that. But if he can make that kind of jump in the play-offs, there's no reason to think Matt can't. Again, the same things being said about Matt was said about Flacco just 6 weeks ago & this is after Flacco had a great play-off run last season.
Matt wasn't great in the play offs this season. I understand that. Matt wasn't great in the month of December.... I understand that. What I don't agree with, is the idea that it can't be fixed.
Just an aside, I didn't want to do this, posting stuff I find on another board that isn't related to the Texans, but the situation is similar:
Sweft said:
Doesn't that sound silly? Brady isn't as mobile as Flacco. Brady doesn't have the big arm that Flacco does... But doesn't that sound silly?
This is an emotional game, I get it. But sometimes I think the emotions get in the way of rational thinking. Matt Schaub has regularly been a better QB than Joe Flacco. There is absolutely no reason to believe he won't be a better QB than Flacco in 2013 between the months of September & December.
We don't need to get a new QB, we need to get the QB we have to play better in December & January.
Why didn't Brady play well in the AFC Championship game? Was it because he can't extend plays or doesn't have a rocket laser arm?
HTown2ATX
TexansMetalhead
Wait....I just happened to click to see last couple posts and it appears some people are saying Schaub is somehow in Flacco's class??.....Or they'd rather keep Schaub over Flacco if given the chance? Wow
I assume there must be sarcasm here, maybe I need to go back and read some more.
This is going to be a loooooong off season between the care bear's and realists. Ugh......still tired from last night...for now, I'll just avoid this mess...
Also saying that Joe only plays good in the playoffs....ugh....isn't....isn't that what counts? I'm confused..
I assume there must be sarcasm here, maybe I need to go back and read some more.
This is going to be a loooooong off season between the care bear's and realists. Ugh......still tired from last night...for now, I'll just avoid this mess...
Also saying that Joe only plays good in the playoffs....ugh....isn't....isn't that what counts? I'm confused..
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Right. I'd take both over a majority in the league right now...especially Kaepernick. Like him alot
I disagree with what your saying here. The jump Schaub has to make is being able to play well under duress and every year he has had trouble and happy feet with teams who apply heavy pressure. I honestly don't think that's something you fix. I think its an issue that keeps playing out. That is something Flacco's never had an issue with. No one questions that Schaub's passer rating bears out that he plays well within the Texans system when he has time and the play action is working. But when teams slow down the run and he is forced to handle pressure, its a bad situation. I look at Schaub and Flacco as 2 trains....one having it click and raising his game and one regressing as a season went on and having issues that have seemed to build over the seasons. BTW, the playoffs is what counts! Why do you think Aikman is in the HOF. The guys numbers never jumped out at you yardage wise, etc but come playoff time he was one of the most accurate passers in playoff history and he won games without making mistakes. Not putting Flacco there...just saying guys can make careers in the post season.
Yesterday
Waterboy
First things first, Matt Schaub doesn't have the physical ability of either QB last night. Not even close. Arm strength - Schaub could NOT have made about 1/2 of the throws Flacco did (hail mary to Jacoby, 3rd down to Boldin). Flacco's arm strength off of his back foot is stronger than Matt's when he's on balance.
Same with Kaepernick - his arm strength and accuracy have already exceeded Schaubs.
The most disheartening thing is that even Flacco has a significantly better ability to extend plays than Schaub. When the pressure is on Matt, he goes into turtle mode or throws the ball away.
It's obvious that if we are ever going to win a SB, we need THE best D in the NFL (ala '02 Bucs, 00 Ravens). And we need a Running game so fierce that our play action WRs are WIDE open.
Same with Kaepernick - his arm strength and accuracy have already exceeded Schaubs.
The most disheartening thing is that even Flacco has a significantly better ability to extend plays than Schaub. When the pressure is on Matt, he goes into turtle mode or throws the ball away.
It's obvious that if we are ever going to win a SB, we need THE best D in the NFL (ala '02 Bucs, 00 Ravens). And we need a Running game so fierce that our play action WRs are WIDE open.
Yesterday
Waterboy
And another thing - Matt Schaub did no better than TJ Yates in the playoffs. Schaub is a below average QB in the NFL (I can easily name 16 better than him). It doesn't take an expert to notice that his throws don't have the zip of the top guys.
Now, if only we had drafted Aaron Rodgers instead of Travis Johnson...
Now, if only we had drafted Aaron Rodgers instead of Travis Johnson...
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
With the talent the Texans have on offense (7 pro bowlers) and on defense (3 pro bowlers -- including a healthy Cushing), there is no reason why this team can't reach the Super Bowl in 2014. We have to stay healthy and clinch the 1st seed.
But if we have home field in the playoffs I believe we'll beat anybody.... Patriots, Broncos, Ravens, whoever. It's a waste of time to be comparing Schaub to Flacco because I believe we would spank the Ravens if we played them. Our defense dominated Flacco and the Ravens offense the last two games we played them -- 2012 regular season in Houston and the 2011 playoffs at Baltimore.
I'm pumped up and excited for the 2013 season to start in September.
But if we have home field in the playoffs I believe we'll beat anybody.... Patriots, Broncos, Ravens, whoever. It's a waste of time to be comparing Schaub to Flacco because I believe we would spank the Ravens if we played them. Our defense dominated Flacco and the Ravens offense the last two games we played them -- 2012 regular season in Houston and the 2011 playoffs at Baltimore.
I'm pumped up and excited for the 2013 season to start in September.
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
The good news: That's exactly what I expect to have in 2013. We'll have a healthy Foster and Tate tandem - arguably the best in the league just two years ago. Our defense will be top three again as well.
Then I must be in bizarro land because I'm sure we said Flacco folds under pressure & our game plan was to pressure him into making mistakes. Then that's exactly what happened when we spanked them in the regular season.
They both played poor down the stretch. They fired their offensive coordinator because it got so bad. They lost four of their last 5. & Flacco didn't look great in but maybe the last two.
I understand the play offs count. Matt didn't look as good as we hoped in his first play-offs. But neither did our defense, neither did our run game, neither did our pass protection.
Also look at Brady in the AFCCG. No run game, no defense, receivers couldn't get open, then they were dropping what balls he threw them. Do you think it's time for the Patriots to move on at the QB position?
Brady has been there, done that, so he gets a pass. Matt hasn't, & that's not all on him. We don't know what Matt will do when we get to the play offs next year, just like no one expected Ryan to play as well as he did, no one expected Flacco to play as well as he did.
Matt wasn't the answer in Foxboro for us, but he wasn't the biggest problem.
Yesterday
Waterboy
I agree, but this is also a big area of concern...WHY do we have to have home field? Ravens did it on the road this year, Giants last year...our team needs to develop the mental toughness to win on the road in big games. That starts with Kubiak and Schaub
Yesterday
Waterboy
But the NFL is evolving in a direction where a team's running game and pass protection are directly correlated with the QB. The ability to audible, slide protection, etc. Teams know that Schaub can't make certain throws, which allows them to focus their defense on the running game. They also know that Schaub hasn't proven that he can be successful when the D knows that it will be a pass. In addition, his complete lack of pocket presence and ability to extend plays allows defenses to tailor their coverages.
Overall, Schaub is just a one trick pony. He is, in my opinion, the least athletic starting QB in the NFL in a league driven by athleticism.
Schaub's got his issues, but the things you describe are not them. He looked fine in 2009 when everyone knew we were going to be throwing the ball. He looked fine vs the Jags & the Lions when everyone knew we were going to be throwing the ball.
His pocket awareness is definitely not an issue, I don't know what you're talking about there.
I've always had issues with his ability to make plays happen off schedule. He isn't successful as often as I'd like for him to be & I've criticized him for giving up on plays too early, too often.
There does appear to be a problem with bright lights & high stakes. I'm just not convinced that he can not step up in those situations. I also don't believe the level of assistance needed from the rest of the team is as high as "we" are saying now.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
I like your optimism. We need more of it in here.
Yesterday
Waterboy
What I'm referring to is his inability to exit the pocket, sidestep, go forward, etc. Sure, he's mighty good at throwing the ball away the second a defender gets close and not taking sacks. But he doesn't have the eyes in the back of his head that a Manning or Big Ben does.
He does plenty of sidestepping, stepping up.... avoiding rushers while staying in the pocket. He can't make a 6 second ordeal of it like those guys, but usually he can find an open guy in that time.
Outside the pocket... yeah, it's time to move on to the next play.
But with what Matt Schaub brings to the table, we can win games. We've done it. When there's no running game, we can win games. We've done it. When the defense isn't bringing it, we can win games. We've done it.
We need all them to step up when the bright lights come on. We need all of them to step up in December.
I don't see Baltimore winning when they get one dimensional, or when their defense has a bad day. I don't see the Patriots winning in the play offs when they get one dimensional, or when their defense has an off day. We are not special in that respect.
Go to the Patriots forum & read all the threads from the last two weeks. Believe it or not, it's awful similar to what we're saying here & they are just as far off & knee jerk as we are here.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
You are so all over the place.
No, they don't replace Brady because he is an all time great that wins every year and pretty much doesn't have any of the issues with arm strength and pocket ability that Schaub has. How is that not recognizable. You making that leap is just nonsense. It's been going on for more than just this year.
Flacco wasn't playing bad as much as their coordinator wasn't putting he or Rice in a position to use their strengths. Once that happened he was 5-2 with 15 TDs and 1 int. Schaub is always going to be in this system and when the system clicks he is fine. But his arm and pocket awareness under pressure will always be a question. Those just don't come out of the blue after 7 years or so. Again, expecting him to click for a full year means he has to have max protection and a great running game EVERY game. I never said get rid of him. I just said its foolish to compare Schaub to Flacco at this point. Two trains.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
That's the grail right there. The mentality to win regardless of the environment. Everyone wants that and almost no one ever achieves it. The idea is I think that if you reach that point then you probably end up with home field advantage simply as a result of being able to go into other teams stadiums and win during the regular season.
Yesterday
Waterboy
Giants reached that point and haven't had home field. Same w/ Ravens. But those teams were on fire going into the playoffs when they won. We were limping. That is the biggest factor in my opinion; our team peaked in the Baltimore game (losing Cush didn't help, and neither did the complete breakdown of our offense)
Surreal McCoy
Rookie
For years, Matt has been one of the better QBs in the league, despite his limitations & Tom Brady looked just as bad as Schaub in the AFC Championship game. A lot of what we're saying about Schaub right now, is being said about Brady on Patsfan, right now. They are talking about not throwing downfield, they are talking about not being able to make plays outside of the pocket.
I'm not saying that Matt is in the same league with Brady. I understand the anger if that's what you're thinking I'm saying. I am saying Brady couldn't carry his team to a victory in the play offs playing play off competition. He needed his defense to play better. He needed his pass protection to play better. He needed his receivers & the run game to be better than what it was.
Collin Kaepernick couldn't get it done without his defense playing like a top 5 defense for 60 minutes.
Flacco wouldn't be the Super Bowl MVP if his defense hadn't shown up or his running game wasn't there, or if his receivers dropped as many balls as Brady's receivers.
A QB can win a game in the regular season. A QB could win one of those two games we lost down the stretch.... Minny & Indy. But a QB isn't going to carry a team to a Super Bowl Championship. Peyton hasn't done it. McNabb couldn't do it. Elway couldn't do it. It's never happened before & it won't happen for Matt Schaub.
The coordinator was fired because he wasn't using Ray Rice enough. Flacco never had a lack of opportunity to throw the ball downfield. The biggest thing that attributed to Flacco's play off performance was probably the rearranging of the OL.
The Ravens lost 4 of their last 5.
Yep Schaub and Flacco are 2 trains going in opposite directions.
Schaub has never been mobile or had a strong arm. But since his foot injury he cant navigate the pocket and has lost accuracy. There's a corralation between the problems and the foot injury. IMHO Fiddler/Thunderkyss disagrres with me about this. It's obvious to me and this yr is probably about as good as it's going to get for Schaub. Scary as we look into the future.
BTW TK, Mario is still an overpaid slacker. LOL
Hate the game, not the player.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Flacco and Cameron butted heads all the time and Flacco was not a fan. Their offense was dated and predictable. He didn't use Rice but they also didn't test defenses effectively with Smith and Jones because of not using Rice. There was no room for play action. Once that changed under Caldwell, you saw what he was capable of. My point being he had room to improve because much of what was happening was their play calling. With Schaub its more "can he get it downfield" and "can he stay clean and still make plays." As we saw last night Flacco can avoid a rush.
As far as a QB needing all of those things....there is a reason a majority of SB winners have top Qbs leading the. The history of the league shows this. Most are on great teams who have other talent but a large majority need a top QB. Even with a great defense, etc if Schaub is playing elite level teams, he has issues and that is a major ? He is a smart guy that fits in a system like Houston's perfectly but I think his limitations put a ceiling on their chances. JMO
& 6 weeks ago, Joe Flacco wasn't a "great" QB. Matt Ryan was far from it. The opinion of those two QBs wouldn't have changed if their run games & defenses didn't show up.
Matt's run game & defense didn't show up.
& that's fine. I understand the questions. Like I said, I've been criticizing Schaub for years, but this year it's gotten ridiculous & I think people are going over board exaggerating some of his weaknesses.
If the foot is an issue, I can understand but I'm not seeing any evidence that his foot is the problem & if it were, I don't see him playing in the Pro Bowl, especially not as much as he did.
If the defense played at a high level & the offensive line/running game played at a high level & Matt Schaub played like he did... I would agree that Matt has to go, that Matt can't get it done.
Not being able to beat the Patriots in the regular season & a virtual repeat of that game in the post season tells us our problems are way deeper than Matt Schaub.
Yesterday
Waterboy
What I mean was those teams were finally healthy heading into the playoffs, on an upward trend. Wins and Losses don't always fully represent a team's performance.
Say all you guys want about systems, but the fact of the matter is Schaub has very sub-par arm strength with about average accuracy. Well below average mobility, average decision making. Zero charisma. Rarely breaks tackles. Maybe slightly above average throwing on the run (again, to wide open receivers in a system that caters to that)
At best, he is mediocre. Maybe we can win a SB with a mediocre QB. But Mediocre QBs don't win more than 1 super bowl, that is a fact.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Ryan had a Pro Bowl year and was playing well for a large part of the year. 32 TDs, 14 ints, 4719 yards and a 99 rating isn't shabby. 5th rated passer in the league. They were a #1 seed. He had some bad games but overall a damn good year.
Well see. Mediocre QBs don't normally turn in 5 years of the numbers Matt has put up, even in this system. Yes, his performance in the big games is the only real question here & we'll see how that goes in the future.
All that arm strength & accuracy stuff just doesn't compute with what he has done in this league. So I just don't conform to that line of criticism. Questioning his leadership, his toughness, his metal..... I can understand. Those are the only areas where he's not shown to be "elite"
Fixed it for ya.
bOODRO87
Time Consumer
We did probably the worst thing we could have going into the playoffs. Two chances to clinch HFA and couldn't do it. Nothing to smile about at all.