Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million

[Scooter]

i was one of the early proponents of trading mario because i thought we were flawed by trying to make him an OLB instead of a defensive end. i assumed he would bust and be nothing more than a big name at a popular position, with no real impact because we didnt utilize his strength (literally). i'm changing my position in regards to mario. no, i wouldnt trade mario unless we cant afford to resign him. if he'll break the bank however, we absolutely have to find a way to get something in return for him.

his individual impact was above average. his total impact however was felt across the line and that's something we're extremely unlikely to find again. mario did what i thought he couldnt - he scared offensive coordinators and still beat their shifts towards him (and he DID see more attention than anyone else in the front 7). barwin and reed have done their jobs very well, but they dont have the ability to influence offenses like mario, nor is it likely an early round pick would. mario keeps tightends and halfbacks in to block instead of going into routes. he's able to stunt with watt to draw 3 or 4 or 5 blockers, freeing up smith and barwin ... or make a similar mess on the opposite side.

mario and foster are both coming up on their paydays, and if i'm the texans i make sure they both receive them.

 

[ObsiWan]

This is true.

But tell me more about what proven players could be picked up in FA with the 15-20 mil that you would save by trading MW. In addition to the draft picks you would get in said trade? Surely you could get anothr great player in FA with all of that cap space in addition to the draft picks?

Well let's just see who'll be out there equal at those two positions shall we...
The names come from Football's Future's list of 2012 F/As

WR
Reggie Wayne, IND - he's 33 and a product of Manning's skills. Not interested
Wes Welker, NE - Good luck prying him away from Brady
Dwayne Bowe, KC - He's 50% of their offense - KC will pay this man
Vincent Jackson, SD - maybe. But he'll want a big payday. There goes your cap savings.
DeSean Jackson, PHI - Only if Andy Reid is really stupid does he leave Philly. And again, there goes all your cap savings
Marques Colston, NO - He's been on the injury list as much, if not more, than AJ. And he's not an upgrade, IMHO
Stevie Johnson, BUF - He's one of the Bills' emerging stars and Buffalo has plenty of cap room with which to pay him. Unlikely that he goes anywhere
Brandon Lloyd, STL - We should already have him :/ but that's a different discussion. He's 29 and realizes this is his last shot at a big payday. There go your cap savings.
Robert Meachem, NO - Another "maybe". Not sure if N.O. will open the bank for both Colston AND Meachem. This maybe be doable. But he's no A.J. and you did say, "surely you can get another GREAT PLAYER..."
Mario Manningham, NYG - See Meachem. The Giants may let him walk, but he's good, not great.

LB (FF did not separate the OLBs from the ILBs so there's a mix)
Curtis Lofton, ATL

Anthony Spencer (DAL) - Spencer hasn't emerged as he was poised to do two seasons ago, but is about as good a left outside linebacker as the league has to offer. He's a strong run defender and capable of putting some pressure on the quarterback. Though he benefits from playing opposite the league's best outside linebacker, Spencer should have a small niche market pursuing his services this offseason.

Stephen Tulloch (DET) - Tulloch left the Titans to sign a one-year deal with the Lions. Given their hot streak and the energy given off by their defense, it seems more than reasonable that Tulloch will want to remain in Detroit. Considering the linebacking unit is a weakness for the team, it seems reasonable that the Lions will also want him back.
Dan Connor (CAR) - Early in the year, Connor got lost in the depth of the Panthers elite linebacking corps. However, with injury taking its toll on the unit, he's been thrust back into the starting lineup where he's played solid football. The Panthers obviously can't commit a large sum to Connor as a 4th linebacker, but depending on whether Thomas Davis decides to make another run at playing, they may have enough to keep him around. Regardless, Connor shouldn't come at nearly the price tag of the other three.
London Fletcher (WAS) - Even at 36 years old, Fletcher is still playing strong football in the middle of the Redskins' revitalized defense. Unless his play falls off, he'll have a spot on Washington's roster available next season if he wants to be back.E.J. Henderson (MIN) - Henderson had become one of the most underrated backers in the league over the duration of his last contract. Now on the wrong side of 30 with Chad Greenway breaking bank last offseason, the Vikings and Henderson will look to work out a deal that keeps a core piece of the defense in Minnesota.

None of these guys are a suitable Mario replacement unit - not even a gimpy Mario. None of them. So much for "another great player".

 

[ObsiWan]

AJ > MW, but if C-N-D's right I would trade AJ too. AJ= Damaged goods. IMHO

Do you think it's a coincedence that MW,AJ have been out for an extended period of time and the team has gone on a winning streak? Or have they truly become a team that is greater than their sum of parts?

Does the schedule have more to do with the streak, than anything BoBBY/Rick/Gary have done?

Just asking, it is probably a little bit of both?

I truly don't get this question. If Bobby/Rick/Gary hadn't done the right things this off-season, and during the course of these games, there would be no winning streak. Besides, I thought we were talking trade scenarios, not Bobby, Rick, and Gary. I doubt we go the rest of the year undefeated so you Soapers will have your chances to resume your regularly scheduled Kubiak bashing.

 

[Rey]

This is true.

But tell me more about what proven players could be picked up in FA with the 15-20 mil that you would save by trading MW. In addition to the draft picks you would get in said trade? Surely you could get anothr great player in FA with all of that cap space in addition to the draft picks?

If you're going to use that money on a big free agent why not just use that money for Mario?

We don't even know what he'll command market wise. We don't know what will happen with the cap. All these same people were worried we wouldn't have money to spend this off season.

There are a lot of unknowns and IMHO this is like fairytale talk. No offense to anyone, but I don't see this happening at all. I could be wrong, but my better judgement days I'm not.

Mario will sign a lucrative but reasonable deal.

Other players will re structure, we won't add any high priced fa's and will focus on our needs in the draft. We can afford to do that now.

The season will start, we will win the superbowl. The end.

 

[thunderkyss]

If we had a rookie WR matching AJ's production and another doing very well? You betcha!

& this is another difference between you & the guys against trading Mario. You've obviously seen enough to make you believe that Brooks is as productive as Mario & Barwin is doing pretty well?

vs the Brown, the front 5 looked pretty good, but I'm not ready to say they are just as good as Mario.

 

[ObsiWan]

If you're going to use that money on a big free agent why not just use that money for Mario?

We don't even know what he'll command market wise. We don't know what will happen with the cap. All these same people were worried we wouldn't have money to spend this off season.

There are a lot of unknowns and IMHO this is like fairytale talk. No offense to anyone, but I don't see this happening at all. I could be wrong, but my better judgement days I'm not.

Mario will sign a lucrative but reasonable deal.

Other players will re structure, we won't add any high priced fa's and will focus on our needs in the draft. We can afford to do that now.

The season will start, we will win the superbowl. The end.

You summed this situ up much more concisely than I did. Like you, I just think that there are waaay too many "what IFs" (like what if we have two emerging WRs....) and too many just plain "IFs" (like IF we trade Mario or AJ we'll have cap room to sign another great player) to make a move to gain another draft pick, maybe two.

We need to concentrate on paying the guys already on our roster that we want to keep. According to KFFL, here are the Texans that will be F/As this off-season:

RB - Arian Foster
RB - Derrick Ward
WR - Bryant Johnson
TE - Joel Dreessen
K - Neil Rackers
DL - Damione Lewis (who is this??)
OLB- Mario Williams

I'd love to be able to re-sign all of them except for Johnson and Lewis (whoever he is). Whether we have cap room to do so remains to be seen.

 

[dalemurphy]

& this is another difference between you & the guys against trading Mario. You've obviously seen enough to make you believe that Brooks is as productive as Mario & Barwin is doing pretty well?

vs the Brown, the front 5 looked pretty good, but I'm not ready to say they are just as good as Mario.

Here are my issues with re-signing Mario in a nutshell:

1. Consistent injury issues.
2. His best position is LDE in a 4-3. If we outbid those teams, aren't we overpaying him?
3. We are right up against the cap right now without a lot of relief coming.
4. He doesn't love football. I worry about 2nd contracts for those type guys.

 

[thunderkyss]

Here are my issues with re-signing Mario in a nutshell:

1. Consistent injury issues.

Most players, even highly paid 4-3 DEs have consistent injury issues.... look at Freeney, Mathis, Allen, Van den Bosch... Mario, unlike those guys, have been able to play & be productive throughout his issues. He's missed 3 games since 2006. You're making way to big a deal of this.

2. His best position is LDE in a 4-3. If we outbid those teams, aren't we overpaying him?

How do you know this? He's yet to play a full season at OLB, but he's looked pretty good doing it after 4 weeks.

Another thing, the better these guys get on first downs, the sooner Mario will drop to DE, he'll play either Right side or left.

We know Mario is a productive DE..... he looks good standing up @OLB rush LB.... he appears to be that hybrid player Wade said he was looking for.

3. We are right up against the cap right now without a lot of relief coming.

Sign him to a long term deal. Most players could care less about their "cap hit" They are primarily concerned with "guaranteed money" & terms of service.

We pay the GM a **** load of money. I have no problem asking him to do something every now & then. If he can't come up with a deal to keep Mario on this team, that's on him.

4. He doesn't love football. I worry about 2nd contracts for those type guys.

I think he loves it more than you or I do. Remember those injuries he worked through?

 

[badboy]

Opinions are like noses, we all have one. BUT, at this time of the year, I would worry more about us just making the playoffs, and how far we will get in them. All this talk about getting rid of our best players should be reserved until after our season is over, when and IF!

Why? You post here what you want and you should allow others to do same.

 

[badboy]

That pretty much sums it up.

You're expecting at least one first round pick. You know Mario is well respected outside of Houston.

I understand you don't see Mario the same way many of us do. But put it in perspective of something you do value, Aj. Would you do those trades if Aj were involved.

& it gets down to a bird in the hand.

Zenyatta won 19 races in a row and was pretty good race horse. I would not compare her to Secretariat. As this roster stands, I would not trade AJ under any reasonable offers. Like Gary said, AJ will be our first HOF.

I do not see any NFL GM offering a higher first for Mario than NE and only because they have another. Charlie Pallilo and I went around on this prior to CBA re-newal. He thought NE might give two seconds.

Again so new readers who don't know my history on Mario Williams, I like the guy and do expect Smith to re-sign him to lengthy deal.

 

[badboy]

Bb, I know you are a draft/off season guy but I don't believe it is smart to trade pro bowl caliber edge rushers for low first round draft picks unless that player has made it known he is unhappy or would welcome a trade.

Lots of first round picks go on to be ok or flat out bust. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and that applies directly to trading Mario.

I seriously don't think that is going to happen.

I agree with the bolded. Remember, I am not talking about trading Mario if Barwin and Reed don't keep up their current pace. Williams avg'd 1 sack per game so has Reed. Not saying he is as good as Mario but could be soon. It is also not about the two high round picks I want only but we'd also have Mario's $15 million cap hit to play with. Wonder if we could sign a free agent Nose tackle, WR2 and a CB2 with that? You seem pretty happy with Joseph and Manning?

 

[thunderkyss]

I agree with the bolded. Remember, I am not talking about trading Mario if Barwin and Reed don't keep up their current pace.

I would agree..... Mario should probably go on the block if both Barwin & Reed appear to be starters by the end of the season.

If not, I wouldn't want to put Reed, or Barwin in the situation Mario has been in until now..... desperately seeking help on the other side (like CMIII is right now). We've finally got what appears to be help for Mario, now he can finally dominate like we thought he would & he suffers an injury that keeps him out of the last 12 games of the season.

 

[badboy]

First, that's two miiighty big IFs you got there. We certainly don't have two young and blossoming WRs at the moment. And to trade A.J. hoping we do is a little risky IMHO.

Secondly, what's keeping us (besides our oft-lamented past history) from grabbing the best WR on the board in round 2 or 3.

Third, some of the mocks I've glanced at - and I admit I'm far from a draftnik - have Claiborne gone in the top 10 or 11 picks. That means you'd have to pkg the picks you got for A.J. to move up to grab him. So now you've traded an acknowledged stud WR (not to mention him being the face of our franchise forever) for a rookie "maybe"; that doesn't seem wise to me.

As for what I'd do with those picks...? I'd do the Belichick thing and parley them into more picks. Even if I can't do that, my first order of biz is to upgrade the NT spot unless a stud WR like Floyd or ILB Upshaw falls in my lap. Cody is okay, but just "okay". I'd like to have better. Next, I'm taking the BPA with an eye for DeMeco's replacement ....just in case CnnnD is right and he never gets physically back to what he was coming out of Alabama.

Like I said, I'm not a draftnik but that's how I'm thinking right now...

Not sure if you are reading only my posts but the ones I am responding to also? I was asked if I would trade AJ as I would Mario and I think it was said sarcastically as if the two were same calibre. They are not. I neve4r said I'd trade AJ hoping to develop 2 WRs. I compared AJ & Mario in a trade situation as before I would consider trading AJ I would have to have our #2 WR and I put in ( ) Barwin to compare how Conner is doing AND then said a rookie WR if we had one would have to match AJ's stats as Reed is matching Mario's. Go back and read that post.

Your point #2, go to the mock section and read my mid-season mock that I did with Beerlover & RMartin65 & you will find us selecting WR Kendall Wright second round.

Your point #3, in my post you are refering to I used the theoretic #13 pick for the best CB in draft imo. Even you acknowledge that you have seen mocks selecting Claiborne 10-11 and mockers know that in the actual draft players often slip 2-3 places so it is not impossible. You might want to look at a QB named Aaron Rogers who all thought would go top 1/3 of first round. He slid to #32. Again, my theoretical trade of AJ is with a WR matching his stats.

Point 4, I agree Belly will trade down again but how is that working out for him? This year he did some silly pick up with Hainsworth to resolve the defensive line anemia. Fat Albert was cut this week. Fans have been turning on the "smart one" for two years. He better wake up and do something.
I agree on on improving NT but with what? Ta'Amu (my guy) since returning from his hand injury is being pushed around at 335lbs. Do you want that? I really like Dontar'i Poe of Memphis who is extremely strong but has Wade ever drafted or signed (FA) a big boy for Nose? Josh Chapman? Walterfootball.com recent dropped this guy from Texans first round to Texans second round.

WR Floyd has been arrested for alcohol issues three times. If you know Mr. McNair's history those type players do not get drafted by Texans. You have evaluated Floyd's skills correctly as he is a stud.

I too want Upshaw if available whether Mario is a Texan or not as he could be better than Reed. On my most recent mock I selected Hightower ILB for the reason's CND mentioned. Actually, I posted the mock before I read CND's info but still is the right move.

Thanks for your comments. Enjoy the debate.

 

[badboy]

i was one of the early proponents of trading mario because i thought we were flawed by trying to make him an OLB instead of a defensive end. i assumed he would bust and be nothing more than a big name at a popular position, with no real impact because we didnt utilize his strength (literally). i'm changing my position in regards to mario. no, i wouldnt trade mario unless we cant afford to resign him. if he'll break the bank however, we absolutely have to find a way to get something in return for him.

his individual impact was above average. his total impact however was felt across the line and that's something we're extremely unlikely to find again. mario did what i thought he couldnt - he scared offensive coordinators and still beat their shifts towards him (and he DID see more attention than anyone else in the front 7). barwin and reed have done their jobs very well, but they dont have the ability to influence offenses like mario, nor is it likely an early round pick would. mario keeps tightends and halfbacks in to block instead of going into routes. he's able to stunt with watt to draw 3 or 4 or 5 blockers, freeing up smith and barwin ... or make a similar mess on the opposite side.

mario and foster are both coming up on their paydays, and if i'm the texans i make sure they both receive them.

If Reed keeps getting one sack per game he might "scare" OCs.

A starting CB2, a starting WR2 and a starting Nose Tackle in free agency (Mario's $15m), ILB Hightower(NE) who would start if CND is right about Demeco Ryans possibly deteriorating after this season and OG Zeitler (Wisconsin) (NE) who would possibly beat out Briesel as a starter versus Mario? What you talking about Willis?

 

[badboy]

Well let's just see who'll be out there equal at those two positions shall we...
The names come from Football's Future's list of 2012 F/As

WR
Reggie Wayne, IND - he's 33 and a product of Manning's skills. Not interested
Wes Welker, NE - Good luck prying him away from Brady
Dwayne Bowe, KC - He's 50% of their offense - KC will pay this man
Vincent Jackson, SD - maybe. But he'll want a big payday. There goes your cap savings.
DeSean Jackson, PHI - Only if Andy Reid is really stupid does he leave Philly. And again, there goes all your cap savings
Marques Colston, NO - He's been on the injury list as much, if not more, than AJ. And he's not an upgrade, IMHO
Stevie Johnson, BUF - He's one of the Bills' emerging stars and Buffalo has plenty of cap room with which to pay him. Unlikely that he goes anywhere
Brandon Lloyd, STL - We should already have him :/ but that's a different discussion. He's 29 and realizes this is his last shot at a big payday. There go your cap savings.
Robert Meachem, NO - Another "maybe". Not sure if N.O. will open the bank for both Colston AND Meachem. This maybe be doable. But he's no A.J. and you did say, "surely you can get another GREAT PLAYER..."
Mario Manningham, NYG - See Meachem. The Giants may let him walk, but he's good, not great.

LB (FF did not separate the OLBs from the ILBs so there's a mix)
Curtis Lofton, ATL

Anthony Spencer (DAL) - Spencer hasn't emerged as he was poised to do two seasons ago, but is about as good a left outside linebacker as the league has to offer. He's a strong run defender and capable of putting some pressure on the quarterback. Though he benefits from playing opposite the league's best outside linebacker, Spencer should have a small niche market pursuing his services this offseason.

Stephen Tulloch (DET) - Tulloch left the Titans to sign a one-year deal with the Lions. Given their hot streak and the energy given off by their defense, it seems more than reasonable that Tulloch will want to remain in Detroit. Considering the linebacking unit is a weakness for the team, it seems reasonable that the Lions will also want him back.
Dan Connor (CAR) - Early in the year, Connor got lost in the depth of the Panthers elite linebacking corps. However, with injury taking its toll on the unit, he's been thrust back into the starting lineup where he's played solid football. The Panthers obviously can't commit a large sum to Connor as a 4th linebacker, but depending on whether Thomas Davis decides to make another run at playing, they may have enough to keep him around. Regardless, Connor shouldn't come at nearly the price tag of the other three.
London Fletcher (WAS) - Even at 36 years old, Fletcher is still playing strong football in the middle of the Redskins' revitalized defense. Unless his play falls off, he'll have a spot on Washington's roster available next season if he wants to be back.E.J. Henderson (MIN) - Henderson had become one of the most underrated backers in the league over the duration of his last contract. Now on the wrong side of 30 with Chad Greenway breaking bank last offseason, the Vikings and Henderson will look to work out a deal that keeps a core piece of the defense in Minnesota.

None of these guys are a suitable Mario replacement unit - not even a gimpy Mario. None of them. So much for "another great player".

Sorry to keep correcting you but Brandon LLoyd is 30 not 29 and his salary is $1.395m and he would grab $5m in first year and that is 1/3 of Mario's cap hit.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/449/brandon-lloyd
Same with Meachem @ $1.2m http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans-saints/robert-meachem/

You would already have Mario's replacement on the team if Williams was traded; Reed is avg 1 sack per game. Barwin is playing extremely well.

 

[badboy]

& this is another difference between you & the guys against trading Mario. You've obviously seen enough to make you believe that Brooks is as productive as Mario & Barwin is doing pretty well?

vs the Brown, the front 5 looked pretty good, but I'm not ready to say they are just as good as Mario.

dadgum it TK, I know you are not dense, my friend. This thread is predicated on trading Mario in the OFF SEASON and only IF Reed continues his torrid and comparable pace with Mario the rest of this season and does well continuing in the playoffs with that extra pressure. Each week Phillips is adding more to the playbook and the entire defense is better. Reed and Barwin should also improve. Mario bless his body, can't get better on sidelines and I'm not knocking him for being hurt.

 

[badboy]

Here are my issues with re-signing Mario in a nutshell:

1. Consistent injury issues.
2. His best position is LDE in a 4-3. If we outbid those teams, aren't we overpaying him?
3. We are right up against the cap right now without a lot of relief coming.
4. He doesn't love football. I worry about 2nd contracts for those type guys.

Dale when you say this type of stuff I groan. How in the world could you know that? Unless you can provide link where Mario said he does not love game your looking silly.

 

[dalemurphy]

Dale when you say this type of stuff I groan. How in the world could you know that? Unless you can provide link where Mario said he does not love game your looking silly.

You're right. I don't know that with any more certainty than I know:
Brian Cushing and Antonio Smith do love football.

 

[badboy]

You're right. I don't know that with any more certainty than I know:
Brian Cushing and Antonio Smith do love football.

Well folks, I tried.

 

[thunderkyss]

dadgum it TK, I know you are not dense, my friend. This thread is predicated on trading Mario in the OFF SEASON and only IF Reed continues his torrid and comparable pace with Mario the rest of this season and does well continuing in the playoffs with that extra pressure. Each week Phillips is adding more to the playbook and the entire defense is better. Reed and Barwin should also improve. Mario bless his body, can't get better on sidelines and I'm not knocking him for being hurt.

Dadgummit. I still say I want both Reed & Barwin to show much improvement before ditching Mario. We are too reliant on the blots right now & it will hurt us in the play offs & next season when Manning comes back Hasdelbeck gets another year, & Gabbert figures it out. We also may have a truly difficult schedule.

Whether you like it or not, Mario is an elite pass rusher & they don't grow on trees. Two is better than one, & three is better than two.

 

[badboy]

Dadgummit. I still say I want both Reed & Barwin to show much improvement before ditching Mario. We are too reliant on the blots right now & it will hurt us in the play offs & next season when Manning comes back Hasdelbeck gets another year, & Gabbert figures it out. We also may have a truly difficult schedule.

Whether you like it or not, Mario is an elite pass rusher & they don't grow on trees. Two is better than one, & three is better than two.

Hopefully we have found one in the second round and just might get one in first next draft in Courtney Upshaw.

 

[Dutchrudder]

Well folks, I tried.

That is the correct response.

 

[gafftop]

I agree with the bolded. Remember, I am not talking about trading Mario if Barwin and Reed don't keep up their current pace. Williams avg'd 1 sack per game so has Reed. Not saying he is as good as Mario but could be soon. It is also not about the two high round picks I want only but we'd also have Mario's $15 million cap hit to play with. Wonder if we could sign a free agent Nose tackle, WR2 and a CB2 with that? You seem pretty happy with Joseph and Manning?

I agree with the bold above. Point I have been advocating since March. Just think if we had the three players listed above RIGHT NOW.

 

[steelbtexan]

I agree with the bold above. Point I have been advocating since March. Just think if we had the three players listed above RIGHT NOW.

You're never going to convince them of this.

They're blinded by MW's potential. Just like fans were at N.C. State. MW's game is all about potential. Potential he's failed to reach in in college or the NFL.

There's always some extenuating circumsnces why MW has failed to reach his potential. But next yr is always the yr he's going to reach it. Didn't BoBBy speak out about MW's lack of production in the Comical last yr?

 

[ObsiWan]

Not sure if you are reading only my posts but the ones I am responding to also? I was asked if I would trade AJ as I would Mario and I think it was said sarcastically as if the two were same calibre. They are not. I neve4r said I'd trade AJ hoping to develop 2 WRs. I compared AJ & Mario in a trade situation as before I would consider trading AJ I would have to have our #2 WR and I put in ( ) Barwin to compare how Conner is doing AND then said a rookie WR if we had one would have to match AJ's stats as Reed is matching Mario's. Go back and read that post.

I totally missed the sarcasm but I get your context now that I've relooked. So consider the A.J. trade discussion dropped. No Texan fan I've ever heard seriously wants to let him go. Back to Mario the situ.

Your point #2, go to the mock section and read my mid-season mock that I did with Beerlover & RMartin65 & you will find us selecting WR Kendall Wright second round.

I'll have to do some studying up on he and the other WRs coming out this year. We've waited long enough to get A.J. some legit help. ...too long.

Your point #3, in my post you are refering to I used the theoretic #13 pick for the best CB in draft imo. Even you acknowledge that you have seen mocks selecting Claiborne 10-11 and mockers know that in the actual draft players often slip 2-3 places so it is not impossible. You might want to look at a QB named Aaron Rogers who all thought would go top 1/3 of first round. He slid to #32. Again, my theoretical trade of AJ is with a WR matching his stats.

Like I said, I'm not a draftnik. I only get seriously interested in late March and April. But I've watched the draft enough to know what you say is true. Any resemblance between what happens after the first 4-6 picks and the mockers is largely coincidental. That's why I engage you and the other draftniks so I'll learn something. That's also why I allowed for someone special, like Upshaw or Floyd, to fall into our laps. Not likely but hey, DeMeco was still there in '06 when many talking heads thought he was 1st rd quality.

Point 4, I agree Belly will trade down again but how is that working out for him? This year he did some silly pick up with Hainsworth to resolve the defensive line anemia. Fat Albert was cut this week. Fans have been turning on the "smart one" for two years. He better wake up and do something.

I'd trade down because - and I know no one will agree with this - our starting 22 is pretty damned solid (I can see the KJ critiquers groaning) but we need quality backups more than I think we need starters. Why pay first round money for someone we don't expect to start? Unless there's someone Wade really wants or there's a stud WR, trade our 1st rd pick (which should be in the mid 20s) for a 2nd and a 4th.

I agree on on improving NT but with what? Ta'Amu (my guy) since returning from his hand injury is being pushed around at 335lbs. Do you want that? I really like Dontar'i Poe of Memphis who is extremely strong but has Wade ever drafted or signed (FA) a big boy for Nose? Josh Chapman? Walterfootball.com recent dropped this guy from Texans first round to Texans second round.

Not sure who else is out there. I'm sure you know better than I. But Wade has used big boys before. Big Ted Washington when Wade was DC in Buffalo (1995) comes to mind. So, if Wade thinks a guy fits his scheme; i.e., can be a disruptive force, he'll snag him.

WR Floyd has been arrested for alcohol issues three times. If you know Mr. McNair's history those type players do not get drafted by Texans. You have evaluated Floyd's skills correctly as he is a stud.

I too want Upshaw if available whether Mario is a Texan or not as he could be better than Reed. On my most recent mock I selected Hightower ILB for the reason's CND mentioned. Actually, I posted the mock before I read CND's info but still is the right move.

Thanks for your comments. Enjoy the debate.

You're probably right about Floyd. And Upshaw will likely be gone when we pick. Unless we can snag a DeMeco replacement I'm for trading back - if we can find a sucker ...errr partner.

And I, too, enjoy the debate. Thanks.
and my apologies for the lengthy post.

 

[thunderkyss]

Hopefully we have found one in the second round and just might get one in first next draft in Courtney Upshaw.

Reed + Mario is better than Reed + hopefully our next 1st round pick meets expectations.

 

[Rey]

You're never going to convince them of this.

They're blinded by MW's potential. Just like fans were at N.C. State. MW's game is all about potential. Potential he's failed to reach in in college or the NFL.

There's always some extenuating circumsnces why MW has failed to reach his potential. But next yr is always the yr he's going to reach it. Didn't BoBBy speak out about MW's lack of production in the Comical last yr?

Mario isn't some guy we are waiting to get results from.

He's already pretty damn good.

 

[dalemurphy]

Mario isn't some guy we are waiting to get results from.

He's already pretty damn good.

You are correct. However, his production has also been on the decline since 2008. His health has also been on the decline since 2008. Meanwhile, the Texans' talent level has increases significantly and they are up against the cap. So, are we going to pay him Charles Johnson money (6 for $72) or more and make it more difficult to get other contracts done? Or, do we let a "pretty damn good" player whose production and health are declining get paid like a great player get paid by somebody else? I think it will be the latter. I also think that is the right move.

 

[Rey]

4. He doesn't love football. I worry about 2nd contracts for those type guys.

Dale...

I knew you were biased against Mario, but really?

Are you really reading his heart now?

How on earth could you possibly know this?

 

[Rey]

You are correct. However, his production has also been on the decline since 2008. His health has also been on the decline since 2008. Meanwhile, the Texans' talent level has increases significantly and they are up against the cap. So, are we going to pay him Charles Johnson money (6 for $72) or more and make it more difficult to get other contracts done? Or, do we let a "pretty damn good" player whose production and health are declining get paid like a great player get paid by somebody else? I think it will be the latter. I also think that is the right move.

Mario has played under terrible d-coordinators just like everyone else.

During his time under Phillips he was shining just like everyone else.As a matter of fact, he shined under bad d-coordinators too.

Yes he has had injury issues, but who hasn't? For the most part he has played through them though.

 

[Errant Hothy]

Reed + Mario is better than Reed + hopefully our next 1st round pick meets expectations.

It's not that simple, sadly.

Is Redd/Barwin + Mario better then Reed/Barwin + drafted OLB + the free agant/s that Mario's cap space can bring in is the more accurate question.

At this point all I want is a true speed rusher with moves to wreck havoc off on edge of the D, and I'm still not convinced that guy is on the roster, the IR spots included.

 

[Trail.Blazr]

Mario has played under terrible d-coordinators just like everyone else.

During his time under Phillips he was shining just like everyone else.As a matter of fact, he shined under bad d-coordinators too.

Yes he has had injury issues, but who hasn't? For the most part he has played through them though.

If by shined you mean plays up to the level of being the 1st overall pick in the draft... I don't see that. I don't think many people would say Mario sucks... Hell, I am a HUGE fan, as my User name would indicate.. However, in the years since drafting Mario, he has only 'flirted' with justifying his contract and his draft status.

It's fair to say that the organization gone the extra mile to invest in his LONG term maturation.

Bottom line is that for all his efforts and all the excuses of not living up to lofty expectations, it has played out with him doing exactly what any fan would fear... If anything, he's not met my expectations.

All said.. we have options:
- Pay him Mad money on another contract(again and hope he eventually proves the naysayers/doubting thomas's wrong) We already took a flyer on this option.
- Attempt to retain him with a contract that coincides with his accomplishments vs his potential.
- Trade him
- Franchise him

Hate to say it, but if there is any decent trade offers, IMHO, the other options either seem unrealistic or don't make much sense.

 

[dalemurphy]

Dale...

I knew you were biased against Mario, but really?

Are you really reading his heart now?

How on earth could you possibly know this?

I don't know it with certainty though it seems clear. He's been a DE for 10 years and has yet to develop any counter moves. He clearly, also, does not play with the passion and fire that guys like Antonio Smith and Brian Cushing do. That is what I know and what my conclusions are based on.

 

[Rey]

I don't know it with certainty though it seems clear. He's been a DE for 10 years and has yet to develop any counter moves. He clearly, also, does not play with the passion and fire that guys like Antonio Smith and Brian Cushing do. That is what I know and what my conclusions are based on.

So because he has a different personality type than those two guys he doesn't love football?

Some guys just don't have fiery personalities. I didn't have a fiery personality when I played, but I love the game.

If by shined you mean plays up to the level of being the 1st overall pick in the draft... I don't see that. I don't think many people would say Mario sucks... Hell, I am a HUGE fan, as my User name would indicate.. However, in the years since drafting Mario, he has only 'flirted' with justifying his contract and his draft status.

It's fair to say that the organization gone the extra mile to invest in his LONG term maturation.

Bottom line is that for all his efforts and all the excuses of not living up to lofty expectations, it has played out with him doing exactly what any fan would fear... If anything, he's not met my expectations.

All said.. we have options:
- Pay him Mad money on another contract(again and hope he eventually proves the naysayers/doubting thomas's wrong) We already took a flyer on this option.
- Attempt to retain him with a contract that coincides with his accomplishments vs his potential.
- Trade him
- Franchise him

Hate to say it, but if there is any decent trade offers, IMHO, the other options either seem unrealistic or don't make much sense.

Mario has lived up to his draft status considering what our other options were. Even taking that out of the equation, he has been a good pick for us. If you thought he was supposed to come in and be the best ever then no...he has not reached that level.

 

[dalemurphy]

So because he has a different personality type than those two guys he doesn't love football?

Some guys just don't have fiery personalities. I didn't have a fiery personality when I played, but I love the game.

I'd be reluctant to give you a $100 million contract as well. I'm not sold on Mario has a guy who will live up to a huge, second contract. And, I don't think he is so valuable to the team that we need to risk a big contract on him. I agree that he's been a good player and I certainly wish he was healthy and playing right now.

 

[steelbtexan]

Ngata was the best player in the 2006 draft.

MW has been what I expected him to be, it's what he was in college.

A very good player with great potential. But he doesn't have the passion for the game to be great. He has the ability to be an all time great. But this probably wont happen if it hasn't happened by now.

 

[Rey]

I'd be reluctant to give you a $100 million contract as well.

Try to follow along.

My point was that just because a guy isn't fiery all the time doesn't mean they don't have passion for the game.

I'm not sold on Mario has a guy who will live up to a huge, second contract. And, I don't think he is so valuable to the team that we need to risk a big contract on him. I agree that he's been a good player and I certainly wish he was healthy and playing right now.

Dale, you jump around on your arguments. The point I specifically quoted you on was your attempt at reading his heart. I don't care to discuss contract stuff because I really don't know much about it and everyone I've heard regarding it has had something wrong at one point or another regarding moves the Texans can/could or couldn't make.

I'll leave the contract stuff to you guys. I'm just talking about him as a football player.

 

[badboy]

People have pointed to New England for years as the role model of drafting, trading vets and signing free agents. They have allowed good players to move on & received draft picks the team then used to strengthen roster. this is what I am advocating. It is not about whether Mario is elite or just good. It is not about if we like the guy (I do). It is about do we have a player in Reed who can create havoc in the backfield from OLB? He now has 5 sacks & it appears we do. We still have 6 games minimum to evaluate. If we can have $15m cap space and two reasonably high picks to strengthen roster...

 

[dalemurphy]

Try to follow along.

My point was that just because a guy isn't fiery all the time doesn't mean they don't have passion for the game.



Dale, you jump around on your arguments. The point I specifically quoted you on was your attempt at reading his heart. I don't care to discuss contract stuff because I really don't know much about it and everyone I've heard regarding it has had something wrong at one point or another regarding moves the Texans can/could or couldn't make.

I'll leave the contract stuff to you guys. I'm just talking about him as a football player.

The entire argument centers around his value as a player relative to the contract he will likely command. Sure, I'd love Mario to be here making a minimal salary. The organization has a decision ahead, regarding Mario, that will impact the entire team and the future of the organization.

Questioning Mario's passion for the game of football is not an endictment on him as a human being but I think players that don't exhibit passion and love for the game are higher risks later in their careers, particularly when they've earned so many millions of dollars as Mario.

I realize your point. I'm not arguing Mario doesn't love football strictly because he's not a nutcase like BCush and A.Smith. I also pointed out his unwillingness (or disinterest) to develop skills in his game... The man still relies almost exclusively on a bull rush. Why? If he loved football the way some do, I would think he would have developed an arsenal of moves by now and be a technician the way Jared Allen is, for instance.

 

[Trail.Blazr]

Mario has lived up to his draft status considering what our other options were. Even taking that out of the equation, he has been a good pick for us. If you thought he was supposed to come in and be the best ever then no...he has not reached that level.

I disagree. He was signed and re-signed to blockbuster deals. I'm all but certain that was because he was the face of the franchise with the expectation of blockbuster play, NOT based on the consideration of the other options.

Whole heartedly agree to this. GOOD.

Look, I'm not saying Mario is a Bust. I'm not saying I don't want to seem him continue to play as a Texan for years to come.

I AM suggesting that he's underachieved based on his pay and his hype that was fed by the PRO-Mario supporters when drafted. It's been long enough to judge him and I've seen nothing to suggest he's GREAT enough to continue throwing blockbuster contracts at him.

Throwing big money at a player because he's proven to be better than Reggie Bush or Vince Young is not as good an option than trading him for need or the chance to find other GOOD players with potential for greatness in the draft. Asomugha vs Manning and Joseph is a prime example of getting two players of need vs one. I'm happy with the way that went, but that doesn't mean I think Asoumgha is a bum.

IMHO, rewarding Mario with another blockbuster contract would be foolish. He's no longer the face of the franchise, and again, has only shown flashes of greatness in 6 years. Nothing that stands out to suggest he's the man. The only arguments I've seen to justify his mediocrity are injury and coaching.. both of which are weak in terms of justification to keep rewarding him. 6 years... It's time to consider cashing in on his value of another team seeing him as a potentially great player.

 

[VTexan]

Mario and the front office know that he will not get 15 Million on the open market. What I expect to see is a contract around 8-12 million per year and heavy on bonuses.


Trades won't be feasible with the franchise tag because no team will want to take on such a huge salary.

 

[thunderkyss]

Mario is a pro bowler & an All-Pro.

Mario has played well, racking up sacks & earning the respect of the people that matter around the league.

Mario has done what he has done & earned his reputation despite the fact that we continually say, "We've got to get Mario some help"

We've finally got that help & people want to get rid of him?

Doesn't make sense to me. If Mario was healthy & playing these last few weeks, there is no doubt in my mind that he would look like that beast, 20 sack pass rusher he's supposed to be.

 

[Rey]

People have pointed to New England for years as the role model of drafting, trading vets and signing free agents. They have allowed good players to move on & received draft picks the team then used to strengthen roster.

New England has Tom Brady.

They can have the worst pass defense in the league and still win games.

GB went to the superbowl last year mostly because of Rodgers at the QB position.

The Colts have gotten by for so long because of #18.

Great QB's can exponentially raise the level of play of the entire team. Schaub is not that guy and that is not me knocking Schaub.

The Patriots also have been aggressive as far as bringing in FA's..

It's fine to follow a model set by others but you also have to keep in mind that situations are never exactly the same and what works for one team may not work for another.

And besides that, some might say that new England getting rid of Seymour was still not a good idea.

 

[Scooter]

where are yall getting this? in his first 5 seasons mario has had 48 sacks, 10 forced fumbles, averaged 46 tackles and only missed 3 games total. i would draft that production in the top 10 if he were a 260lb specialist ... as a 290lb run stuffer as well it's easy to validate taking him first overall.

nowhere but houston do the fans think mario is so flawed, around the league he's seen as a monster. i'm willing to bet that 32 teams would try their hardest to keep mario on the roster. i'm also fairly sure we could work a deal to make his next cap impact much easier than his current deal.

 

[Rey]

IMHO, rewarding Mario with another blockbuster contract would be foolish. He's no longer the face of the franchise, and again, has only shown flashes of greatness in 6 years.

How many players are consistently great?

By your standards not too many players actually deserve or have lived up to their contracts.

Mario has played under the same shitty defense everyone else was playing in. The dude is still really young. He has only been in the league since '06 and you guys are acting like he has been mediocre for 10 years when in actuality he has been a good to great player for most of his tenure in the league.

Ok, I guess.

Like I've said. I think he'll be here next year.

 

[Rey]

where are yall getting this? in his first 5 seasons mario has had 48 sacks, 10 forced fumbles, averaged 46 tackles and only missed 3 games total. i would draft that production in the top 10 if he were a 260lb specialist ... as a 290lb run stuffer as well it's easy to validate taking him first overall.

nowhere but houston do the fans think mario is so flawed, around the league he's seen as a monster. i'm willing to bet that 32 teams would try their hardest to keep mario on the roster. i'm also fairly sure we could work a deal to make his next cap impact much easier than his current deal.

Great post.

 

[Thorn]

nowhere but houston do the fans think mario is so flawed, around the league he's seen as a monster.

Unless some team offers up a truly outrageous and draft changing deal, Mario will sign a contract with the Texans. And afterwards, we'll all be right back here debating it.

 

[Trail.Blazr]

20 sack pass rusher he's supposed to be.

But he's been hurt.
But he's been undercoached.
But he's lacked surrounding talent.
But
But
But

 

[marks01234]

My thoughts -

You don't let a great player go for a bunch of good players. Great players are what is needed to win championships. You need playmakers like Clay Matthews, BJ Ragi and Charles Woodsen. It's easy to find guys to play solid around that kind of talent. Even now - our passing game look pretty solid without Andre but there is no denying that we need him to go to the next level.

Depending on where you think Mario Williams is at, you have to respect that over the past five years his numbers compare very well to every other DE/OLB in the league. You also have to respect that he had 5 sacks, a forced fumble and several QB pressures in 4 1/4 games this season in our 3-4 scheme.

You also have to note that for the first time our history, we are a good situation for a pass rusher. Every other season, we have seen mainly run formations in the second half because we were playing from behind. This year it is the complete opposite. Look at Freeney's numbers this year for some prespective. I think this has to be factored in when comparing Mario's 08/09 numbers with Reeds 2011 numbers. Overall though, this a good thing for our team.

I'm really not sure how you can equate Mario's lack of moves to not loving the game. It's obvious from the guys' body he cares enough to stay in great shape.

I agree that we need to structure the deal to protect ourselves from breaking the bank if Mario doesn't stay healthy. But the guy should be a face of our franchise - he's a good guy off the field and has been successful on it. I'd much rather be trying to find a few serviceable role players around Mario than I would trying to take roll the dice in free agency or the draft again.

 

[BigBull17]

Dale...

I knew you were biased against Mario, but really?

Are you really reading his heart now?

How on earth could you possibly know this?

Yeah, guys who don't really like football or their teammates travel with the team and play cheerleader. It's a dumb and sadly typical, Dale argument.