Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million

[dalemurphy]

How many teams let go or trade their best defensive player/pass rusher under the age of 30. I see the team playing well defensively, but you can never have enough good rushers and williams was going to be a monster this season. Now what they can do is offer him more than woodley,hali,and dummervill money and stage it based on likely to be earned incentives. Like someone said before. 6 yrs that average 12m per with half in the 1st 3 yrs of the deal. 6 yrs 72m with 35 guaranteed in 1st 3 yrs. 1st yr bonus of 11.5,2nd yr 11.5, and 3rd yr 12m, after that it could be 6m salary and 6m roster bonus due on 1st day of the calender year. If he's healthy and playing well, its fair market after the 1st 3 yrs, if he's hurt alot and not producing, you cut him and move on.

Mario is not the Texans' best defensive player. Let's be clear on that right now. Their best defensive player is also the emotional leader of the defense... that's Brian Cushing for those of you who don't pay attention to this team.

by the way, the teams that have successfully maintained greatness are the very ones that make shrewd decisions like these all the time:

New England
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Green Bay...

all these teams have made a habit of letting talented players in their prime go in order to remain in good cap health so they can continue to build their championship-caliber teams instead of having it blow up just as it really got going. While I could give you a list of examples of teams letting their best pass rusher go (Tennessee- Haynesworth; Carolina- Peppers)... The real issue is cap prudence, regardless of what position it is. I think any shrewd football mind realizes that Mario Williams is an overpriced investment, particularly if he's playing in a 3-4.

 

[dalemurphy]

do you really think mario williams is more valuable to this team than arian foster?

no, it's not even close.

 

[thunderkyss]

all these teams have made a habit of letting talented players in their prime go in order to remain in good cap health so they can continue to build their championship-caliber teams instead of having it blow up just as it really got going. While I could give you a list of examples of teams letting their best pass rusher go (Tennessee- Haynesworth; Carolina- Peppers)... The real issue is cap prudence, regardless of what position it is. I think any shrewd football mind realizes that Mario Williams is an overpriced investment, particularly if he's playing in a 3-4.

I think you've chosen bad examples. Haynesworth was crap. Played his ass off in his contract year. The Titans got what they wanted, Haynesworth got what he wanted, but the Titans were the "smarter" franchise in this situation. Haynesworth did nothing before or after that contract year.

Peppers

Peppers received $18.2 million from the Carolina Panthers last season. He turned down a four-year, $54 million contract offer from the Panthers last year.

Something else he has in common with Mario

And maybe, he'll shoot down a reputation for taking plays off, one that he feels is unwarranted.

If the Panthers had opted to tag Peppers, it would have cost them $21.4 million -- about $1.3 million per game -- which the team deemed too pricey.

I'm just going to go out on a limb & say the Panthers probably regret that decision. If they knew now, what they would eventually have in Cam.... they could be a play-off team.

Next year, when Peyton is back & Locker/Hasselbeck has a full training camp, Brit, & a fair draft I think the Texans will be more than willing to spend $18 Million if need be.

Or, they can sign him to a long term deal like Peppers.

The contract is worth $91.5 million with $42 million guaranteed. Peppers will make $40.5 million over the first three years. The number could increase if he makes the Pro Bowl, records a certain number of sacks or is defensive player of the year.

With a good capologist, a reasonable agent, & a hometown discount it may not hit us for more than $5M against the cap. This is by no means official, but these guys seem to believe Peppers first year only counted $4,080,000 towards the cap.

 

[Brisco_County]

His salary figure this year is somewhere between $14 and $18 million. Any player that is franchised is guaranteed a 20% raise.

Ever since the revised salary cap, I've suspected that Mario probably won't be a Texan next season. It'd have to be around $8 million a year to make space for other necessary signings.

As long as there are teams like Atlanta out there, he will get that big offer.

 

[thunderkyss]

Marc and John did an interview with him on 610 2 or 3 weeks ago.

The thing that struck me was that he said that the Texans would be taking a huge cap hit even if they franchised him. He said that he didn't think that the Texans would want to spend that percentage of the cap on him.

Let's hope they don't. The Texans should have learned with Dunta.... it's not worth it.

BUt.... it's not our only option, definitely not our best option. Peppers signed a $94M contract with the Bears & restructured it for the 2011 season bringing his cap hit below $5M.

So the question is, if you could sign Mario for less than $6M against the cap (don't worry about the real numbers, for this conversation, the only thing that matters is his cap number)?

if you're against signing Mario regardless of the cap number (not you in particular), can we drop the facade & get on with that (not signing Mario regardless) conversation?

 

[ObsiWan]

Or, they can sign him to a long term deal like Peppers.

With a good capologist, a reasonable agent, & a hometown discount it may not hit us for more than $5M against the cap. This is by no means official, but these guys seem to believe Peppers first year only counted $4,080,000 towards the cap.

This makes the most sense for all parties involved to me. And based on this quote Mario doesn't seem like he's out to bankrupt the Texans. I seem to recall that his rookie contract was structured to be cap-friendly in the early years that resulted in that balloon payment at the end. There's no reason to think that he wouldn't be amenable to that strategy again.

According to the article that srrono posted in the "franchise Mario?" thread his franchise salary would be $16.56 million...

UPDATE, 4:57 p.m.: I now interrupt this post to correct myself and make the rest of it an example of what could happen in another situation like Williams' instead of his situation itself. As gbrussell points out below, a secondary provision of the franchise tag is that if it's not more than 120 percent of a player's previous salary, he gets that number instead. Williams has a $13.8 million salary in 2011. So his franchise 2012 tag number would be $16.56 million. That's prohibitive. A long-term deal would come with a much lower 2012 number. The Texans have to give him a deal or let him go. Back to a scenario that would play out if Williams had a reasonable number this season.

So in order to avoid impacting the salary cap to that degree ($16.56M is almost 14% of the total cap!) an incentive laden, cap-friendly deal should be struck. I think it will.

These $20-22 Mil franchise numbers that are being thrown around are simply ridiculous. I can't think of a single player, I'd pay that kind of money to - Manning, Brady, and Rodgers included.

 

[PHAROAH]

Sign & Trade to pick up multiple picks to fill needs he will be to expensive plus Arian Foster & Myers. Plus next year we have to figure about extending matt shaub's contract.

 

[thunderkyss]

So in order to avoid impacting the salary cap to that degree ($16.56M is almost 14% of the total cap!) an incentive laden, cap-friendly deal should be struck. I think it will.

These $20-22 Mil franchise numbers that are being thrown around are simply ridiculous. I can't think of a single player, I'd pay that kind of money to - Manning, Brady, and Rodgers included.

It does not need to be "incentive laden" it needs to be structured correctly. Since the salary cap era, total value of the contracts mean less than nothing. That's why teams get a pass (sort of) when they cut players prior to the contract runs full term.

Guaranteed money is important to the player as is the structure.

Peppers deal came with $46 million paid over the first 3 years. He might play under this contract for 4 or 5 years. If he's playing well, he'll probably ask for more. If he's playing like a 40 year old man, he'll probably be happy with his smallish salary & place on the team.

Front load the contract so you aren't a cap casualty later on. Back load a contract to "force" your team to renegotiate before the contract is up.

Like Mario's rookie deal. He & his agent gambled that he would be one of the top rush ends in the league by 2011. I bet they never expected to see Mario earn $16 million in one year. Normally, that would have been close to the bonus for his new deal... $20M, $25M for a 6 year $80M contract. The majority of that $80M paid in the first 4 years of the contract, but spread out over 6 for cap purposes. Then when you get to year 5, you restructure, more bonus money, spread over an additional 6 years.

 

[Corrosion]

Let's hope they don't. The Texans should have learned with Dunta.... it's not worth it.

BUt.... it's not our only option, definitely not our best option. Peppers signed a $94M contract with the Bears & restructured it for the 2011 season bringing his cap hit below $5M.

So the question is, if you could sign Mario for less than $6M against the cap (don't worry about the real numbers, for this conversation, the only thing that matters is his cap number)?

if you're against signing Mario regardless of the cap number (not you in particular), can we drop the facade & get on with that (not signing Mario regardless) conversation?

If his cap hit is $6m .... there's no way you let him walk. No way in hell.

 

[scourge]

The number is twice that which means franchising him is a practical impossibility.

Here is how a franchise number is now calculated:

(1) Summing the amounts of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the five preceding League Years; (2) dividing the resulting amount by the sum of the Salary Caps for the five preceding League Years(using the average of the amounts of the 2009 and 2011 Salary Caps as the Salary Cap amount for the 2010 League Year); and (3) multiplying the resulting percentage by the Salary Cap for the upcoming League Year (e.g., when calculating the Tender for the 2012 League Year, dividing the aggregate sum of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the 2007-201 1 League Years by the aggregate sum of the Salary Caps for the 2007-2011 League Years and multiplying the result by the amount of the Salary Cap for the 2012 League Year) (the "Cap Percentage Average")


So the owners got the numbers tamped down in the new deal. The players will get smaller percentages of a larger cap, but until there is a real cap boom, the resulting number will be lower than it has been.

The safety franchise tag, for instance, accounted for 8.8 percent of the $120 million salary cap last season, but will now be worth roughly 5.1 percent of the cap.

So what’s the difference between a tagged linebacker and end going to look like under the 2012 cap, expected to be about $125 million?

The defensive end number will be roughly 8.8 percent of the cap, down from 12.9.

The linebacker number will be roughly 7.3 percent, down from 10 percent.

So as an end, Williams would get an $11 million tag, and as a linebacker it would be $8.125 million. If the Texans choose to hold onto Williams with a tag, the sides could argue about the $2.875 million difference.

Didn't see anywhere in there that said anything of the previous 20% rule. Maybe I'm missing something...

 

[Dutchrudder]

Didn't see anywhere in there that said anything of the previous 20% rule. Maybe I'm missing something...

I read part of the new CBA somewhere around this forum and I assure you it included the 120% rule.

 

[burro]

As much as it will probably suck, I'm not expecting Mario to be a Texan next season nor am I expecting to get much of anything for him. He is what he is, which is a good player with injury problems and an unreasonable price tag. In the end, he's easily the most expendable "big ticket item" on our roster and I don't see him blowing up the league upon his departure. I wish he would just come to grips with his performance and take a pay reduction, but we all know the likelihood of that.

 

[Lurvinator11]

I feel the best thing for the team to do is to sign him to a long term deal. That way it will not effect the cap space as much. It would also be the best case for mario as well. He already lives here and is a big part of the community. Now correct me if I am wrong, but if he did sign a long term contract, and he got hurt to where it was a career ending injury, would the texans still be paying him? I feel like we would be the only team willing to sign him to like a 7 year deal. That way he would be set in his career and and not risk signing a shorter deal somewhere else and then losing out in the end.

 

[Wolf6151]

The figure that I've seen published several times was by John McClain and he said $20 mil. would be Mario's franchise price tag. That's way to expensive for an often injured player. More than likely we will not be franchising Mario. We can sign and keep him, sign and trade him ( my personal favorite), or let him walk and save lots of money to be used in FA.

 

[Blake]

Sign him to a long term deal. You can NEVER have too many pass rushers. Depth is a good thing and you are seeing why this year.

 

[dalemurphy]

Sign him to a long term deal. You can NEVER have too many pass rushers. Depth is a good thing and you are seeing why this year.

Nothing limits depth on a football team more than giving "star" players that can't stay health huge signing bonuses and long term deals. Anyone that believes depth is crucial would be a proponent of letting Mario walk and using those funds on three or four quality players.

 

[gafftop]

Franchise him only if we can trade him to a team and get compensation.

If not let his ass walk and spend that money on players that are worth it. Mario has proven for years that he "isn't" worth anywhere close to what he's been paid.

I agree. There may be some team out there that may make a deal. Don't look for the Pats though to do this they are way to smart.

That we are having to look at this issue is the reason I don't feel we have a real brain trust in the FO. This issue was brought up back in April of this year. See below.


Re: The Mario Issue, Let's look at it in another way

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by gafftop
Simplified possible Mario outcomes next season:
1. Plays good when healthy but has some type of nagging injury as last two years
2. Does not adapt to 3-4.
3. Plays great in his contract year

In 1 we get probably nothing or do we get compensation because we do not sign as we did with Dunta. Last pick in draft. LOL

In 2 same as 1

In 3, do you want to give Mario say 20+ million for the next 5 years based on his last year of performance. Say the cap is 120 million. If you divide in half, half for offense and half for defense, do you really want to give Mario 33% of all money for defense? I sure don't. DO YOU?

In reality probably no player is worth that large of % of cap. Maybe Peyton or Brady etc QBs of that caliber may be the only position that warrants that and even then it is a crap shoot because of injury.

The above is why I think IF you can get a good deal in a trade this year you do it.

It is very likely that other teams view Mario in the same way and will give nothing for him this year. I don't know. But if there are teams out that that covet him I think it should seriously be considered by the Texans.

I don't think Aso is a good deal based on reasoning above.
Just my opinion. Above posted over 8 months ago.

"Here we are almost exactly 8 months from this post. Took a lot of negative hits from this thread I started. Here we are now and where do we stand? It was my feeling that no matter what happened we would be in a bad place with Mario once the season was over.

I am reading on other threads that we trade Mario now for this and/or that. Someone please explain how we do this? Isn't he a free agent? I think we missed our chance to get something of value for MW. I still thinks he WALKS with us getting nothing but the PITY pick/consolation pick/Dunta pick etc.

Why do I think we get nothing? I don't think we can " non-exclusive " franchise and expect anyone to offer anything for Mario if it means them giving up high round draft choices. I don't think we outright franchise him because he is not worth what we would need to pay him. We can transition tag him but correct me if I am wrong, if we don't match we get nothing.

Anyone watch the game last night. Anyone see Aldon Smith. Anyone think Mario is better. I am sure there are.

Somebody make me feel better and explain how we come out of this deal whole.

I can't help but think where this team would be now if a trade would have been made and we had a real 1b WR and another real CB.

The great teams stay great by always increasing overall talent VALUE. We will lose overall value if we keep Mario or we lose overall value if we let Mario walk.

I really am ecstatic with the Texans season. It may not seem like that but I am. I just have this feeling that we could be a whole lot better if a trade was made. "


At this time we are choosing between 2 bad outcomes. The best outcome has already passed us by.

I know you are probably tired of hearing what I have to say but it is situations like the above and how you deal with them that mold a franchise.

 

[Mr. White]

Let's hope they don't. The Texans should have learned with Dunta.... it's not worth it.

The difference is that Mario acted like it didn't really bother him. He said that he knows it's a business and that even if he gets franchised then it's still a lot of money. Dunta was a different case. He let it be known far in advance that he didn't want to be franchised.

BTW...the podcast for the interview is on this page. 25 minutes long. Scroll down to 12/13. It's #28 on the list now, even though I'm sure it'll go further down as they put up new podcasts.

BUt.... it's not our only option, definitely not our best option. Peppers signed a $94M contract with the Bears & restructured it for the 2011 season bringing his cap hit below $5M.

So the question is, if you could sign Mario for less than $6M against the cap (don't worry about the real numbers, for this conversation, the only thing that matters is his cap number)?

if you're against signing Mario regardless of the cap number (not you in particular), can we drop the facade & get on with that (not signing Mario regardless) conversation?

Just to go on record, I've been a huge fan of the guy ever since he got here. Absolutely loved the way he looked in the 3-4.

The problem is that I think that he's a luxury that we can't afford anymore. I think re-signing Foster is a bigger priority and rather them bring in another stud at WR.

 

[Blake]

Nothing limits depth on a football team more than giving "star" players that can't stay health huge signing bonuses and long term deals. Anyone that believes depth is crucial would be a proponent of letting Mario walk and using those funds on three or four quality players.

Mario has started 16/16 games his first 4 season. Last season he started 13/16 and this year obviously 5/16. Thats 82 starts out of 96 possible starts.

If you want to label him as a player that cant stay healthy, then you have to label 95% of the league stars as players that cant stay healthy.

Obviously I would rather franchise him and trade him, but If my options are to sign him to a long term deal, or let him walk for a comp pick, you beet your boots I am signing him.

Davin Joseph who was drafted the same year in the first round was just given a seven-year, $53 million contract including $19 million guaranteed. For a guard that is alot of money.

He also has only started 82/96 games. But I guess the Buc's dont care about depth either.

 

[dalemurphy]

Let's hope they don't. The Texans should have learned with Dunta.... it's not worth it.

BUt.... it's not our only option, definitely not our best option. Peppers signed a $94M contract with the Bears & restructured it for the 2011 season bringing his cap hit below $5M.

So the question is, if you could sign Mario for less than $6M against the cap (don't worry about the real numbers, for this conversation, the only thing that matters is his cap number)?

if you're against signing Mario regardless of the cap number (not you in particular), can we drop the facade & get on with that (not signing Mario regardless) conversation?

You are talking about mortgaging the future. That cap number will escalate until it poses a very big problem. By the way, you can't simply cut a player three years into a 7 year deal like one we are talking about. If Mario gets a $40 million signing bonus for a 7 year deal, cutting or trading Mario after three years would create a cap hit in year four of about $24 million. Keeping a player in the 4th year of a deal that big would mean the cap number would have escalating well north of $10 million and climbing each year afterwards. Some people are content mortgaging the future for a couple years of prosperity. I hate that idea. Also, I don't think Mario is the kind of irreplacable difference-maker that would make that kind of financial compromise even a logical consideration even if he was likely to be healthy for the contract.

 

[amazing80]

Dont forget we extended Andre and his deal escalates as we go forward......Doubt we keep Mario, just not enough money for everyone

Only way I see us keeping him is getting rid of Ryans (trade) and picking up someone to fill in at ILB...which I doubt happens

 

[badboy]

I would franchise him. See if he can stay healthy for a year, and if he can, what type of numbers he puts up over a full 16 game season in this system. At this point, we could let him walk and see him blow up, or sign him to a monster deal and see him continue to be plagued by injuries and/or surpassed by the other guys on the roster. I'll pay an extra penalty up front to take an extra year to make that decision vs. making the wrong decision right now.

I think in the games Mario played he showed what he could do as he avg'd a sack per game. I don't want to pay him 120% of his salary regardless of what that is.

 

[badboy]

Depending on whom you believe, Mario's tag number will be between $17 million and $22 million. HE WILL NOT BE FRANCHISED. He will be re-signed to a monster deal or allowed to walk. Those are the only two viable options.

I tend to agree as I said in the post you quoted that he will sign BUT if my source is correct and his salary is $14m, then extra $3m is not impossible especially if Smith thinks he can move him in a trade.

 

[badboy]

Ever since the revised salary cap, I've suspected that Mario probably won't be a Texan next season. It'd have to be around $8 million a year to make space for other necessary signings.

As long as there are teams like Atlanta out there, he will get that big offer.

It is not about the salary base as that can be manipulated. It is about the upfront (bonus)money. He adds that to his checking account immediately without any wait. He received bad advice from his agent on his first deal (no bonus) & will try to make that up. That does not rule out Texans.

 

[badboy]

Let's hope they don't. The Texans should have learned with Dunta.... it's not worth it.

BUt.... it's not our only option, definitely not our best option. Peppers signed a $94M contract with the Bears & restructured it for the 2011 season bringing his cap hit below $5M.
So the question is, if you could sign Mario for less than $6M against the cap (don't worry about the real numbers, for this conversation, the only thing that matters is his cap number)?

if you're against signing Mario regardless of the cap number (not you in particular), can we drop the facade & get on with that (not signing Mario regardless) conversation?

TK right on target. Bullseye! If Mario wants to go elsewhere, I think for McNair, Mario would allow Smith to work a trade.

 

[badboy]

As much as it will probably suck, I'm not expecting Mario to be a Texan next season nor am I expecting to get much of anything for him. He is what he is, which is a good player with injury problems and an unreasonable price tag. In the end, he's easily the most expendable "big ticket item" on our roster and I don't see him blowing up the league upon his departure. I wish he would just come to grips with his performance and take a pay reduction, but we all know the likelihood of that.

Mario was averaging a sack per game as OLBand he was a very good if not superstar DE. If he "comes to grips with his performance" we will not be able to afford him.

 

[thunderkyss]

Just to go on record, I've been a huge fan of the guy ever since he got here. Absolutely loved the way he looked in the 3-4.

The problem is that I think that he's a luxury that we can't afford anymore. I think re-signing Foster is a bigger priority and rather them bring in another stud at WR.

If Smith does his job, we can have both Mario & Arian. Like Aj, Mario sounds like he wants to be a Texan forever, meaning a long term deal, 6 to 7 years is not out of the question, so we can spread the guaranteed money & signing bonus over a long period of time.

Don't think it has to be one or the other. Think about it as Rick Smith getting off his ass & putting pen to paper.

 

[badboy]

I feel the best thing for the team to do is to sign him to a long term deal. That way it will not effect the cap space as much. It would also be the best case for mario as well. He already lives here and is a big part of the community. Now correct me if I am wrong, but if he did sign a long term contract, and he got hurt to where it was a career ending injury, would the texans still be paying him? I feel like we would be the only team willing to sign him to like a 7 year deal. That way he would be set in his career and and not risk signing a shorter deal somewhere else and then losing out in the end.

Any injured player would be paid for any money guaranteed plus any "buy out" his agent could negotiate. Any bonus &Mario had none, is prorated over life on the contract & team has to count the yearly avg left against the next cap. For example, if Mario were to sign a 6 year deal with $18m bonus (upfront), he gets that immediately. He also was given $24m guaranteed. He gets that but it can be paid to him as team and his agent agrees. The bonus 20m is avg across the 6 year deal at $3m per year. Let's say he gets career ending injury 5th game second year. There is 4 years remaining with $3m (bonus) each year; the bonus is accelerated to the third year. That would be $12m against cap in third season.

Hope this helps?

 

[Ryan]

Do whatever we need to keep him.

 

[thunderkyss]

You are talking about mortgaging the future. That cap number will escalate until it poses a very big problem. By the way, you can't simply cut a player three years into a 7 year deal like one we are talking about.

I understand every thing you're saying. I don't agree with some of your conclusions. You're talking about straight up cutting him in 3 years, meaning you don't believe he will live up to his end of the contract.

I think he will. I think we'll be looking to extend Mario again.

But, if we give Mario $40 million up front as part of that deal, with $200,000 salary, & a $6M, $7M, $10M, $10M cap number over the first 4 years, that leaves $7M to be addressed over the next 3 years of the contract, when the salary will balloon to the point where everyone will say, "The Texans aren't going to pay him that."

So your option is to cut him then ($7M dead money) or resign him for a longer term. Let's say his skills diminish to where you think they are right now.... we can offer him a $20M bonus over 4 years.

The idea is that even though the contract says 5 years, or 7 years you're actually only paying the player so much over the first 3 years or 4 years & manipulating the numbers to fit under the cap.

 

[TheGoldenGreek]

I think we absolutely should tag him. Give him another chance to prove himself next season and if he performs like we believe he should, pay that man!

 

[ObsiWan]

I think his franchise number for next season will be between $22m and $23m ..... thats a lotta jack to pay one guy.


The Franchise tag is the average of the top 5 at the position OR the last years salary plus 20% whichever is greater ... MW would most likely fall into the 20% group.

I could be wrong .... but thats the way I understand it.

Where did you get 9-10M range for Mario's franchise number ????
You do realize its in the 18-20M range???

His salary figure this year is somewhere between $14 and $18 million. Any player that is franchised is guaranteed a 20% raise.

I checked several sites and they all say Mario's salary for 2011 is $13.8M; when you multiply that by 1.2 you get 15.56M. While this is still prohibitive, it's not the 20-22 million you guys keep spouting.

I understand every thing you're saying. I don't agree with some of your conclusions. You're talking about straight up cutting him in 3 years, meaning you don't believe he will live up to his end of the contract.

I think he will. I think we'll be looking to extend Mario again.

But, if we give Mario $40 million up front as part of that deal, with $200,000 salary, & a $6M, $7M, $10M, $10M cap number over the first 4 years, that leaves $7M to be addressed over the next 3 years of the contract, when the salary will balloon to the point where everyone will say, "The Texans aren't going to pay him that."

So your option is to cut him then ($7M dead money) or resign him for a longer term. Let's say his skills diminish to where you think they are right now.... we can offer him a $20M bonus over 4 years.

The idea is that even though the contract says 5 years, or 7 years you're actually only paying the player so much over the first 3 years or 4 years & manipulating the numbers to fit under the cap.

I like this plan.

Rick, make this happen!

 

[dalemurphy]

I understand every thing you're saying. I don't agree with some of your conclusions. You're talking about straight up cutting him in 3 years, meaning you don't believe he will live up to his end of the contract.

I think he will. I think we'll be looking to extend Mario again.

But, if we give Mario $40 million up front as part of that deal, with $200,000 salary, & a $6M, $7M, $10M, $10M cap number over the first 4 years, that leaves $7M to be addressed over the next 3 years of the contract, when the salary will balloon to the point where everyone will say, "The Texans aren't going to pay him that."

So your option is to cut him then ($7M dead money) or resign him for a longer term. Let's say his skills diminish to where you think they are right now.... we can offer him a $20M bonus over 4 years.

The idea is that even though the contract says 5 years, or 7 years you're actually only paying the player so much over the first 3 years or 4 years & manipulating the numbers to fit under the cap.

There are a series of rules disallowing some of what you are suggesting. For instance, salaries can only escalate at a certain rate (roughly 150% each year). Therefore, you can not give someone a salary of $200,000 in year one and then $4 million in year two. Second, the prorated bonuse money counts against the cap each year. So, if he has a salary of $6 million it would add to his bonus that would be divided by the number of contract years, so his cap number would be roughly $12 million in the earlier scenario. Finally, the entire bonus remaining on a deal with years left gets immediately thrown against the cap in one year after he's cut or traded. So, if the Texans traded Mario with three years remaining on the aforementioned 7 year deal, $18 million of prorated cap money would immediately count against the next season's cap.

 

[Dutchrudder]

Philly's defense has most observers scratching their heads. They beat Miami and Jets who are not known for offense. I read that there is some consideration of going to the 3-4 next season. Remains to be seen if Juan Castillo has finally gotten D going.

I think Dallas beats them Christmas Eve & Philly wins vs Washington = 7-9 record. Will Andy Reid be allowed to continue? Would Wade Phillips get an offer to be head coach and would he want Mario to be his OLB with Babin on other side?

If you want to ship Mario off for a few picks, 1st or 2nd & 3rd, then you need to find a team with a lot of cap space available and a lack of pass rushing. Some teams that have a lot of money to work with next year will be: Chiefs, 49ers, Bills, Bucs, Jags, Bengals, Browns, Bears, Seahawks, Cardinals, Packers and Redskins - all of which currently have 10+ million in capspace.

Of those, several of them need help with pass rush, but then you have to figure out where they would play Mario. Is he a 4-3 DE or a 3-4 OLB? Would they be willing to take the risk on him after his injury? Would you trade a 2nd & 3rd for him and then give him a 60 million dollar deal? It's a tough place for that team and Mario. I think the uncertainty of his injury coupled with the limited time he played OLB here may reduce his cost on the market and give the Texans a chance to re-sign him for 8-9 million a year or match whatever he is offered elsewhere.

 

[ObsiWan]

There are a series of rules disallowing some of what you are suggesting. For instance, salaries can only escalate at a certain rate (roughly 150% each year). Therefore, you can not give someone a salary of $200,000 in year one and then $4 million in year two. Second, the prorated bonuse money counts against the cap each year. So, if he has a salary of $6 million it would add to his bonus that would be divided by the number of contract years, so his cap number would be roughly $12 million in the earlier scenario. Finally, the entire bonus remaining on a deal with years left gets immediately thrown against the cap in one year after he's cut or traded. So, if the Texans traded Mario with three years remaining on the aforementioned 7 year deal, $18 million of prorated cap money would immediately count against the next season's cap.

If that's true then explain A.J.'s salary progression. According to this source, it's between 6.0 and 6.5 mil in 2011-2014 then jumps to 10.5 mil in 2015. While it's not the exaggerated double order-of-magnitude increase you used in your example does exceed the 150% rule you quote.

In fact, the same site shows that Mario's salary quadrupled from last year ($3.025 M) to this ($13.8 M).

maybe the limit you speak of is a result of the new cap rules....

 

[ObsiWan]

If you want to ship Mario off for a few picks, 1st or 2nd & 3rd, then you need to find a team with a lot of cap space available and a lack of pass rushing. Some teams that have a lot of money to work with next year will be: Chiefs, 49ers, Bills, Bucs, Jags, Bengals, Browns, Bears, Seahawks, Cardinals, Packers and Redskins - all of which currently have 10+ million in capspace.

Of those, several of them need help with pass rush, but then you have to figure out where they would play Mario. Is he a 4-3 DE or a 3-4 OLB? Would they be willing to take the risk on him after his injury? Would you trade a 2nd & 3rd for him and then give him a 60 million dollar deal? It's a tough place for that team and Mario. I think the uncertainty of his injury coupled with the limited time he played OLB here may reduce his cost on the market and give the Texans a chance to re-sign him for 8-9 million a year or match whatever he is offered elsewhere.

I agree. I think the injury uncertainty and the looming multi-megabuck deal are very prohibitive to Mario ending up elsewhere. I think he stays at a reduced cost. Probably somewhere in the range of A.J.'s salary - 6-6.5 M with a balloon payment at the end of a multiyear deal.

 

[ChampionTexan]

If that's true then explain A.J.'s salary progression. According to this source, it's between 6.0 and 6.5 mil in 2011-2014 then jumps to 10.5 mil in 2015. While it's not the exaggerated double order-of-magnitude increase you used in your example does exceed the 150% rule you quote.

In fact, the same site shows that Mario's salary quadrupled from last year ($3.025 M) to this ($13.8 M).

maybe the limit you speak of is a result of the new cap rules....

The rule he's talking about only applied to the restructuring of existing deals, and it applied under the previous CBA (although it could very well apply to the current one also - I haven't checked).

Basically, if a contract existed that included a salary amount for a certain year, you couldn't restructure or extend that contract and raise a previously existing amount by more than a certain percent. It applied more going into the uncapped year of 2010, as there was lots of talk (mostly by fans) about restructuring existing deals to dump as much of the already existing future obligation into the uncapped year as possible. (IE: He's getting $8 Million, $9 Million and $10 Million a year over the next three years, let's restructure his contract to pay him $25 Million in 2010 and the minimum the two years after that).

It didn't (doesn't?) apply to years that were being negotiated for the first time.

 

[badboy]

Keep in mind that the new television deal bringing and extra $3 Billion begins in 2013 and will allow teams to really back load contracts with new cap space allowances.

 

[panamamyers]

Not.
No need to do so. We can get someone for a lot cheaper to fill in there behind Reed and Barwin.

 

[badboy]

If you want to ship Mario off for a few picks, 1st or 2nd & 3rd, then you need to find a team with a lot of cap space available and a lack of pass rushing. Some teams that have a lot of money to work with next year will be: Chiefs, 49ers, Bills, Bucs, Jags, Bengals, Browns, Bears, Seahawks, Cardinals, Packers and Redskins - all of which currently have 10+ million in capspace.

Of those, several of them need help with pass rush, but then you have to figure out where they would play Mario. Is he a 4-3 DE or a 3-4 OLB? Would they be willing to take the risk on him after his injury? Would you trade a 2nd & 3rd for him and then give him a 60 million dollar deal? It's a tough place for that team and Mario. I think the uncertainty of his injury coupled with the limited time he played OLB here may reduce his cost on the market and give the Texans a chance to re-sign him for 8-9 million a year or match whatever he is offered elsewhere.

I think Eagles will be reducing cap space on defensive side of ball in off season.

 

[thunderkyss]

Basically, if a contract existed that included a salary amount for a certain year, you couldn't restructure or extend that contract and raise a previously existing amount by more than a certain percent. It applied more going into the uncapped year of 2010, as there was lots of talk (mostly by fans) about restructuring existing deals to dump as much of the already existing future obligation into the uncapped year as possible. (IE: He's getting $8 Million, $9 Million and $10 Million a year over the next three years, let's restructure his contract to pay him $25 Million in 2010 and the minimum the two years after that).

It didn't (doesn't?) apply to years that were being negotiated for the first time.

I don't know all the rules, but I know I've seen deals like the one I mentioned. Several of our players had similar deals.

In the scenario I'm talking about, since we are not restructuring Mario's contract & it will be a new deal, then we should be able to structure a deal similar to what I'm saying. At no point in the first 4 years will Mario have a salary greater than 2 or 4 million his cap number will largely be made up of the prorated signing bonus & various roster bonus or whatever incentives they put in.

& yes, it will be structured as such that Mario & his agent would be satisfied, or reasonably assured that the Texans won't cut him.

 

[badboy]

It does not need to be "incentive laden" it needs to be structured correctly. Since the salary cap era, total value of the contracts mean less than nothing. That's why teams get a pass (sort of) when they cut players prior to the contract runs full term.

Guaranteed money is important to the player as is the structure.

Peppers deal came with $46 million paid over the first 3 years. He might play under this contract for 4 or 5 years. If he's playing well, he'll probably ask for more. If he's playing like a 40 year old man, he'll probably be happy with his smallish salary & place on the team.

Front load the contract so you aren't a cap casualty later on. Back load a contract to "force" your team to renegotiate before the contract is up.

Like Mario's rookie deal. He & his agent gambled that he would be one of the top rush ends in the league by 2011. I bet they never expected to see Mario earn $16 million in one year. Normally, that would have been close to the bonus for his new deal... $20M, $25M for a 6 year $80M contract. The majority of that $80M paid in the first 4 years of the contract, but spread out over 6 for cap purposes. Then when you get to year 5, you restructure, more bonus money, spread over an additional 6 years.

If I remember correctly, McNair said the contract was helpful in choosing Mario with first pick. I do not think a #1 had ever agreed to a no bonus before.

 

[dalemurphy]

If that's true then explain A.J.'s salary progression. According to this source, it's between 6.0 and 6.5 mil in 2011-2014 then jumps to 10.5 mil in 2015. While it's not the exaggerated double order-of-magnitude increase you used in your example does exceed the 150% rule you quote.

In fact, the same site shows that Mario's salary quadrupled from last year ($3.025 M) to this ($13.8 M).

maybe the limit you speak of is a result of the new cap rules....

Sure:

1. AJ's salary progression could go from $5 million to $7 million to $10 million to $13 million in a 4 year period without ever jumping 150%, as I have just shown.

2. Mario's salary is not $14 million. His salary is roughly $7 million but his cap hit is an additional $6 million due to his prorated salary bonus, giving him a cap hit of roughly $14 million.

These rules are not new.

 

[badboy]

Sure:

1. AJ's salary progression could go from $5 million to $7 million to $10 million to $13 million in a 4 year period without ever jumping 150%, as I have just shown.

2. Mario's salary is not $14 million. His salary is roughly $7 million but his cap hit is an additional $6 million due to his prorated salary bonus, giving him a cap hit of roughly $14 million.

These rules are not new.

You need to research this as Mario did not get a salary bonus. He did receive small incentive bonus each year. His 2011 salary was $13.8m. His cap was apprx $15m.

 

[thunderkyss]

Sure:

1. AJ's salary progression could go from $5 million to $7 million to $10 million to $13 million in a 4 year period without ever jumping 150%, as I have just shown.

2. Mario's salary is not $14 million. His salary is roughly $7 million but his cap hit is an additional $6 million due to his prorated salary bonus, giving him a cap hit of roughly $14 million.

These rules are not new.

Mario had no bonus on his rookie deal. His salary for this year is $13+Million.

 

[dalemurphy]

You need to research this as Mario did not get a salary bonus. He did receive small incentive bonus each year. His 2011 salary was $13.8m. His cap was apprx $15m.

Call it what you want. When he signed, he was given a bunch of money. that money had to be spread out in such a way, with guarantees, that it created the situation we have now.

Regardless, the point is that his new deal will require a huge bonus, or something equivalent to it, which will ensure he collects a number of his higher salaried years.

 

[thunderkyss]

Call it what you want. When he signed, he was given a bunch of money. that money had to be spread out in such a way, with guarantees, that it created the situation we have now.

Regardless, the point is that his new deal will require a huge bonus, or something equivalent to it, which will ensure he collects a number of his higher salaried years.

I don't think so... on both counts.

 

[dalemurphy]

I don't think so... on both counts.

You'd be very wrong then. All first round picks, particularly early picks, are guaranteed huge amounts of money.

 

[thunderkyss]

You'd be very wrong then. All first round picks, particularly early picks, are guaranteed huge amounts of money.

guaranteed money doesn't necessarily mean bonus.

 

[gafftop]

This thread started back in March 2011, 10 months ago.

The Mario issue is polarizing to say the least. I don't hate Mario but I do think he "was" overrated and therefore excellent trade material. Also it seemed to me that no matter what occurred during the 2011 season we would have problems with his contract at the end of the season. We also had glaring problems at DB and I thought WR which could have been helped with a trade of Mario before the season began. The front office did a great job with JJ/Manning but did not address the WR issue. Can you imagine this team with another quality CB and another quality WR.

I feel we may have the weakest overall WR group left in the playoffs. We may have one of the best WR but the others ... Can you imagine if we had a Cruz, Welker, etc how much better this offense would be. That is a whole other thread.

As the season has progressed it has become more obvious in regards to the Mario situation.

How the Texans deal with the Mario situation will be the most important decision to be made this offseason. As stated months ago I think we have already let the best outcome pass by keeping him this year.

Signing Mario to a big contract will critically impair the chances of this team to improve and keep current players. The Texans still have many needs and giving a large amount to MW will make it impossible to address as many as they could if they do not sign him. Do you really see him signing a contract that only counts say 8 million against the cap ?

Nothing in regards to the Mario issue has change in the last 10 months. It just is becoming more obvious.