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Kareem Jackson's plight.
- Thread starter 76Texan
- Start date
I need to learn that.
However, there are plays I think that need to be in slow motion to see and I don't know how to do that either!
I like the fact that 76 is attempting to base his evaluation of Jackson on real analysis and game stuff, but while nice and fairly professionally Kubiak, smith and even Wade Phillips have all said he did not play well enough. Wade who makes Kubiak look brash even questioned Jackson's technique in one of McLame's off-season fluff pieces.
This is like one of my F students convincing me that they are a D student when they need at least a C minus not to retake the class. OK it was not total suckage it was just mostly suckage. It still was not good enough.
I like seeing the chess match between coaches. These threads 76 has started really shows that. Very few teams just line up and say "this is what we do and you can't stop us." The Jets, Steelers (to a degree), and Ravens are all I can think of off hand. You know what you get with those teams and they think they do it better than anyone. The Texans are trying to get in that mold offensively.
I don't think that is what 76 is trying to do.
People generally watch the game & they pick somebody to blame. Usually if you have one bad decision after anther, it get's easy to say "I was right, I know better than Kubiak, Smith, McNair"
Since Kareem was the #1 pick,we didn't pick Kyle Wilson, we didn't sign Dunta, Lee played us, & we let Jaques Reeves go, everybody wants to blame all their frustration for Kubiak & McNair on Kareem.
Wade is going to say what he said for several reasons. #1 it's true, #2 he knows the Texans fans don't want to hear what 76 is saying. If a Wade came out saying that, we'd start the "McNair strapped him to Kareem just like he forced Carr on Kubiak" crap.
#1 is true, because he's a rookie & has a lot to learn. If I was Wade, Kareem wouldn't be in my top 5 things I need to worry about right now.
I like the still shots - frame by frame you can break down the details of the play more thoroughly. Not just the focus of the play but the other things that made the play work (or fail) like the protections. You miss so much in real time ..... Just ask the refs.
I dont believe that people appreciate the effort you put into these threads - I enjoy them , keepem comin.
(If you do use youtube , It would be nice to have the still's as well)
I get the idea 76 is trying to show that while Jackson played poorly - He didnt have a whole lot of help either. When he made a mistake , so did the safety which lead to big gains and or scores.
I could be wrong but in evaluating the examples given as well as others (on youtube or my DVR) I see one mistake leading to another ..... With some experience Jackson may not make these same types of mistales again (or as often).
I hope Jackson is at home with his DVR evaluating the same **** 76 has put here ..... rather than out watching cock fights .... or going to porn expo's.
If Kareem isn't top 5, I bet the secondary, as a whole, is #1. It has got to be fixed and fixed now. I don't care if it's a better pass rush, better coaching/scheme or 1 or 2 top FA's. whatever it takes to reach at least average. Just get that side of the ball to hold up their end.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Yeah, keep them coming 76. Good stuff.
Secondary is a big problem.. if not #1 (NT maybe) it's #2. But the problem isn't & wasn't the corners. Safeties... if you look at 76's examples, the safety biting down on the run fake imo is what sets everything else in motion. If he's going to bite, the off corner has to take his place, or the other safety has to recognize & widen out.
We're talking about 40+ yard passes in his examples, the other safety maybe could have gotten over in time to do something.
& while we did give up many of those, we gave up more underneath.. crossing routes, quick outs to TEs, screens to RBs.. that's on the LBs & the DL. They have to recognize screens (& we are terrible at it) & the LBs have to control the middle of the field. They just have to.
I completely agree with that. That's why I said secondary as a whole instead of specifying a particular position. Someone still needs to make sure Kareem has some longer spikes on his shoes this season. Maybe it'll keep him on his feet a little more often.
I'd like to say thanks to those who appreciate my effort.
All I'm saying is when we want to evaluate a player, we neeed to:
1. Look at the whole body of his work.
(This is where I compare Myers with Jackson. I've watched each play in slow motion and in still shots like these for the last 4 years. I've learned a little here and there.)
2. Look at the situation around him.
- One CB can look better with more pressure up front while another looks bad because lack of the same (overall when you look at all the plays each was involved in.)
- One CB, for some reason, just happened to receive better help from the safety while the other did not (again, counting all the plays each was invloved in.)
- One CB might have gotten away with a few more penalties while the other did not.
A little bit of this and lit bit of that add to some bad plays on his own combine to make for an easy scape goat.
All I'm saying is when we want to evaluate a player, we neeed to:
1. Look at the whole body of his work.
(This is where I compare Myers with Jackson. I've watched each play in slow motion and in still shots like these for the last 4 years. I've learned a little here and there.)
2. Look at the situation around him.
- One CB can look better with more pressure up front while another looks bad because lack of the same (overall when you look at all the plays each was involved in.)
- One CB, for some reason, just happened to receive better help from the safety while the other did not (again, counting all the plays each was invloved in.)
- One CB might have gotten away with a few more penalties while the other did not.
A little bit of this and lit bit of that add to some bad plays on his own combine to make for an easy scape goat.
While watching that Chargers/Raiders game (a bad day at the office for Namdi), I saw a few interesting plays that can bring up a few points.
One of them is when Rivers completed a 55-yd pass over the other CB (Stanford Routt; this guy played locally here at UH and runs a 4.25 forty.)
The Raiders were in cover 2 but one of the safeties was itimitating Pollard while the other shifted over to help Namdi.
You can see from the view behind the offense how the QB Rivers "looked" them off from where the ball was going.
No safety help is a biatch!
I will show the side view first.
One of them is when Rivers completed a 55-yd pass over the other CB (Stanford Routt; this guy played locally here at UH and runs a 4.25 forty.)
The Raiders were in cover 2 but one of the safeties was itimitating Pollard while the other shifted over to help Namdi.
You can see from the view behind the offense how the QB Rivers "looked" them off from where the ball was going.
No safety help is a biatch!
I will show the side view first.
XI CMURDER IX
Gig 'em
Someone is having football relapse, with all these screenshots! ha
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
i also like what 76 is doing i look at it and he goes really in depth. But my whole point is that a CB should not need to depend on a safety. If he cant cover a WR man to man than maybe he shouldnt be a CB. The WR is the CBs job 90% of the time the safety is there to help. So we should expect our CBs to be able to cover guys without help. Look at 09 Dunta and Quin played far better with little to no help as well. Pollard was always in the box and Wilson was still Wilson.
Now you will see that Rivers "looked off" both safeties, fooling them into thinking he was going to his left.
In the last scrren shot you can see the FS bit on the look by Rivers and turned back to the middle of the field (underneath) instead of continuing going back along with Routt.
In the last scrren shot you can see the FS bit on the look by Rivers and turned back to the middle of the field (underneath) instead of continuing going back along with Routt.
On a different play, there was a 5-yd holding call (away from the play) that was declined since the Chargers gained 10 on a pass to Sproles.
Namdi committed the penalty because he had allowed the receiver to cut back to the outside.
.....
Then came a play in which Namdi funneled the receiver inside toward the single safety, but then allowed the receiver to cut back to the outside over the top.
(This is why CB had to honor the outside route.)
Fortunately, the pass was off-target (the pocket collapsed and Rivers couldnt step into the throw.)
I'm not going to show those sceen shots, but those plays clearly showed that as CB, you have to honor the corner route (or any type of outside route) as you funnel the receiver to the inside.
If you let the receiver cut back to the outside, the safety won't be able to help.
Namdi committed the penalty because he had allowed the receiver to cut back to the outside.
.....
Then came a play in which Namdi funneled the receiver inside toward the single safety, but then allowed the receiver to cut back to the outside over the top.
(This is why CB had to honor the outside route.)
Fortunately, the pass was off-target (the pocket collapsed and Rivers couldnt step into the throw.)
I'm not going to show those sceen shots, but those plays clearly showed that as CB, you have to honor the corner route (or any type of outside route) as you funnel the receiver to the inside.
If you let the receiver cut back to the outside, the safety won't be able to help.
Just about any CB in the NFL can cover the average reciever one on one when you take out all factors outside of those two players. But that isnt reality , unless they are on the practice field.
Its when you add in multiple routes and coverage scheme's that give the CB responsibilities outside of that man on man coverage that the waters get muddied. The mistakes one player makes can easily be compounded or cause a chain of mistakes or simple compensation opening a window elsewhere.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
i agree. But if you look at most of the times Jackson got beat. It was on long straight out routes. hell J. Galloway got behind jackson deep easily 2 times both were man, all he had to do was hang with him, and he didnt even come close.
On another play, Rivers completed a 34-yd pass to Floyd on a back shoulder fade.
Namdi turned the receiver toward the side line and was one-on-one with Floyd.
He committed a PI and still couldn't stop the receiver from catching the pass.
I've said all along that the back shoulder fade is just a difficult route to defend when the QB and the receiver get on the same page.
I've seen Jackson as the victim of good offensive plays like that one a few times (and they weren't long pass plays as the one Namdi allowed in this game.)
Namdi turned the receiver toward the side line and was one-on-one with Floyd.
He committed a PI and still couldn't stop the receiver from catching the pass.
I've said all along that the back shoulder fade is just a difficult route to defend when the QB and the receiver get on the same page.
I've seen Jackson as the victim of good offensive plays like that one a few times (and they weren't long pass plays as the one Namdi allowed in this game.)
I wanted to look at how teams can defend this 2-receiver route succesfully, but I don't think I have time to post all the screen shots.
If somebody has already used photobucket, perhaps they know how I can put a link from here to there so people can go there and watch the slide show.
Just PM me.
I'm uploading the Galloway pass screenshots right this minute and it will be much easier if people can view them there at photobucket.
It will show another of Jackson's plight.
The Texans FS went AWOL (he was not even on the field.)
(P.S. - Never mind, I think I'm about to get it!)
If somebody has already used photobucket, perhaps they know how I can put a link from here to there so people can go there and watch the slide show.
Just PM me.
I'm uploading the Galloway pass screenshots right this minute and it will be much easier if people can view them there at photobucket.
It will show another of Jackson's plight.
The Texans FS went AWOL (he was not even on the field.)
(P.S. - Never mind, I think I'm about to get it!)
I doubt that he can .... More often than not they played some form of zone.
The zone coverage was exploited time and again between the LB and CB as well (and most notably) between the CB and either S. Teams could go to that and exploit it at will .... and the Texans defensive staff never figured it out.
Exactly!
Look at this screen shot and count the number of defensive players on the field.
Look at both the offensive and defensive formation:
- The Skins were in offset-I right, single TE on the left.
They have two receivers on the right.
The outside receiver will go into motion ad run a fake reverse.
- The Skins will fake both the reverse and the run before McNabb pulled up to make the long throw.
- The Texans were in a 4-man front.
They shifted the LBs to the left: LOLB Diles lined up between the numbers and the hashmarks (nearest to the slot receiver Galloway); MLB Ryans was just inside LDE Smith and outside of the FB, and ROLB Adibi was pretty much accross the RB.
The Texans had Quin on the TE, with Pollard backing him up.
Jackson lined up on the wide-out, but did not follow him all the way as this guy went into motion and faked a reverse.
He (Jackson) simply tightened up his split and took on the slot Galloway.
This is zone defense, not man coverage.
As the play developed, you will see Diles following the FB who went to the flat and ran down the side line while Demeco simply dropped back and did not follow anybody; same goes forAdibi.
Both Quin and Pollard also dropped back when they read pass.
This looks like a "supposedly" 5-2 zone, except the Texans were missing a safety.
- Based upon the line-up, if there was a deep safety, we would expect to find him, most likely, behind MLB Ryans.
The slide show cannot find that safety anywhere on the field.
(I have 4 different camera angles.)
But first, here's the line-up.
Look at both the offensive and defensive formation:
- The Skins were in offset-I right, single TE on the left.
They have two receivers on the right.
The outside receiver will go into motion ad run a fake reverse.
- The Skins will fake both the reverse and the run before McNabb pulled up to make the long throw.
- The Texans were in a 4-man front.
They shifted the LBs to the left: LOLB Diles lined up between the numbers and the hashmarks (nearest to the slot receiver Galloway); MLB Ryans was just inside LDE Smith and outside of the FB, and ROLB Adibi was pretty much accross the RB.
The Texans had Quin on the TE, with Pollard backing him up.
Jackson lined up on the wide-out, but did not follow him all the way as this guy went into motion and faked a reverse.
He (Jackson) simply tightened up his split and took on the slot Galloway.
This is zone defense, not man coverage.
As the play developed, you will see Diles following the FB who went to the flat and ran down the side line while Demeco simply dropped back and did not follow anybody; same goes forAdibi.
Both Quin and Pollard also dropped back when they read pass.
This looks like a "supposedly" 5-2 zone, except the Texans were missing a safety.
- Based upon the line-up, if there was a deep safety, we would expect to find him, most likely, behind MLB Ryans.
The slide show cannot find that safety anywhere on the field.
(I have 4 different camera angles.)
But first, here's the line-up.
Now, I'm going to try to post the link to photobucket.
See if you guys can get there and see the album with 4 sub-albums.
See if you guys can find Wilson anywhere on the field.
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/62%20yd%20pass%20to%20Galloway/
See if you guys can get there and see the album with 4 sub-albums.
See if you guys can find Wilson anywhere on the field.
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/62%20yd%20pass%20to%20Galloway/
Click on one the sub-albums, "111" for example.
When it opens up, there should be an option "view as slide show".
When the slide show starts, there's a play and pause button on the bottom left so you can play it manually.
When you finishes with a sub-album, click on the "back" option on the top right hand to go back to the previous play.
From here, you can click on "62-yd pass to Galloway" to go back to the root directory in order to view the other sub-albums "222", "333", and "444".
When it opens up, there should be an option "view as slide show".
When the slide show starts, there's a play and pause button on the bottom left so you can play it manually.
When you finishes with a sub-album, click on the "back" option on the top right hand to go back to the previous play.
From here, you can click on "62-yd pass to Galloway" to go back to the root directory in order to view the other sub-albums "222", "333", and "444".
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I can't find him. Were we only playing with 10 guys?
We sure did!
He should be somewhere between the zebra and Jackson, but he went phantom to the cameras.
I've made my album public so everybody can see what's going down.
As you can see, I've been learning on the go.
The organization is still a mess.
Most sub-albums have the photos in reverse order.
(There were a few out of order, but very few.)
There were hardly any comment so it can be hard to follow.
It's probably best to wait for me to point to a certain sub-album after I post some comments on the board.
At any rate, regarding the 2-receiver route, here's one successful defensive play by the Cowboys against the Bucs in 09.
The Cowboys actually stayed with cover 2 (even though the second safety - Hamlin - can still come down to play the run and didnt affect the outcome of this play.)
A safety (Sensabaugh) committed a penalty by pulling on the receiver face mask that was not called, but it shouldn't affect the outcome of the play either.
The important player was RCB Jenkins (the off-side CB like Quin) who came back up top to take over the place of the deep safety. He made the INT.
The LCB Newman who was on the receiver (in Jackson's role) did not defend the route.
The other safety (Hamlin) stepped down to play the crossing route as usual.
Note: These two sub-albums have the photos in reverse order.
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Cowboys_Bucs_2009/
Got to go. More later!
As you can see, I've been learning on the go.
The organization is still a mess.
Most sub-albums have the photos in reverse order.
(There were a few out of order, but very few.)
There were hardly any comment so it can be hard to follow.
It's probably best to wait for me to point to a certain sub-album after I post some comments on the board.
At any rate, regarding the 2-receiver route, here's one successful defensive play by the Cowboys against the Bucs in 09.
The Cowboys actually stayed with cover 2 (even though the second safety - Hamlin - can still come down to play the run and didnt affect the outcome of this play.)
A safety (Sensabaugh) committed a penalty by pulling on the receiver face mask that was not called, but it shouldn't affect the outcome of the play either.
The important player was RCB Jenkins (the off-side CB like Quin) who came back up top to take over the place of the deep safety. He made the INT.
The LCB Newman who was on the receiver (in Jackson's role) did not defend the route.
The other safety (Hamlin) stepped down to play the crossing route as usual.
Note: These two sub-albums have the photos in reverse order.
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Cowboys_Bucs_2009/
Got to go. More later!
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81aa7e0d thanks god
Galloway had to slow down to catch the ball. But still caught it. sure no safety but come on he was K.J man.
And correction 76 my bad i said 2 when it was actually once that galloway got deep on jackson. The other time it was against Wilson and one of our LBs with Pollard about 15 yards behind.
Galloway had to slow down to catch the ball. But still caught it. sure no safety but come on he was K.J man.
And correction 76 my bad i said 2 when it was actually once that galloway got deep on jackson. The other time it was against Wilson and one of our LBs with Pollard about 15 yards behind.
So Jackson was the guy who ended up with him , that view doesnt give us enough information to know what the coverage was nor the route combination to give us an idea if there was a blown coverage and who might have made a mistake.
There are at least three recievers on that side of the field and you cant see the reciever opposite , he could have run a crossing route to disrupt the coverage.
Looks to me the big mistake was Pollard being out of position - Either bit on the play fake or over commited to another reciever.
Plays like that are probably why Pollard was released.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
watch the actual game highlights on NFL.com it shows jackson covering him pretty much from start top finish. it was man
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Regardless it was still jacksons man. i mean hey he could of fallen down, but we dont blame the turf/grass. so i dont blame pollard.
Let me play!
OK, so you insist that it was man coverage.
There were two receivers on the field.
Who was in man coverage on the other receiver?
FYI, Jackson actually overran that play due to smart route running by an experience receiver who knows exactly where the ball is going.
(I have uploaded a new series of photos in case you got tired of figuring it out!)
Also, FYI, you're missing the big picture to begin with.
Regardless.
We aren't saying Jackson played like the best corner in the league.
We aren't saying that Jackson doesn't have room to improve.
All we are saying, is that he played like we expected a rookie to play.
Anyone else, expecting anything else just aren't being realistic.
Let me get back to the two-receiver route.
The way the Cowboys defended it successfully against the Bucs.
It was born out of two concepts that I've noticed in Wade Phillips' defense:
The inverted cover 2 and the drop-kick call.
The play against the Bucs where both CBs actually have more depths than the two safeties (resulting in an INT by the off-side CB Jenkins) is clearly of the inverted cover 2 gene.
The drop-kick call, as I had mentioned before, involved only two main players: the off-side CB and the safety.
Since I've already had this example in the INT against TY Yates, I thought I'd bring it up again.
By now, I think I had given at least a glimpse of how the concept works.
This is the diagram I had drawn and posted some time ago:
The way the Cowboys defended it successfully against the Bucs.
It was born out of two concepts that I've noticed in Wade Phillips' defense:
The inverted cover 2 and the drop-kick call.
The play against the Bucs where both CBs actually have more depths than the two safeties (resulting in an INT by the off-side CB Jenkins) is clearly of the inverted cover 2 gene.
The drop-kick call, as I had mentioned before, involved only two main players: the off-side CB and the safety.
Since I've already had this example in the INT against TY Yates, I thought I'd bring it up again.
By now, I think I had given at least a glimpse of how the concept works.
This is the diagram I had drawn and posted some time ago:
Against TY Yates, the defensive line up is like this:
The TE was strong left; he will run the crossing route.
The receiver on the right will be the target.
The receiver on the left will be in motion and run a fake reverse.
The offense, of course, will also fake a run (to the right) to try to draw at least one safety up.
These two actions combined might even bring both safeties up.
The TE was strong left; he will run the crossing route.
The receiver on the right will be the target.
The receiver on the left will be in motion and run a fake reverse.
The offense, of course, will also fake a run (to the right) to try to draw at least one safety up.
These two actions combined might even bring both safeties up.
