McNair to NFL: Overturn Cushing suspension

[Dallas Texan]

from HT.com

Houston Texans chairman and CEO Bob McNair on his meeting at the NFL offices:

"I had a meeting with the league's medical staff and presented additional medical information about Brian Cushing. The doctors will review the information and we'll hear from them at a later date."

 

[Wolf]

but wasn't McNair "left out of the loop" when Brian tested positive "for an issue" the first time.

I think McNair said something about the next collective bargaining agreement he wanted the owners to know what is going on.

would the NFL go ahead and tell the owners or would that be an issue with the players association?

I am just brainstorming here

 

[Wolf]

but wasn't McNair "left out of the loop" when Brian tested positive "for an issue" the first time.

I think McNair said something about the next collective bargaining agreement he wanted the owners to know what is going on.

would the NFL go ahead and tell the owners or would that be an issue with the players association?

I am just brainstorming here

here it is ..well it is profootballtalk so take it for it is worth
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...r-left-out-of-the-loop-on-cushing-suspension/

 

[Texan_Bill]

Lest I be stoned, I'll present facts and let my wise MB brethren make their own conclusions.

*leaves thread*

 

[MojoMan]

No offense, but I don't think anyone was being rude. Pollardized was just wondering if you had given him negative rep, and then everyone said no, since you just didn't have the rep power for the dot to light up green yet.

You guys were giving her the business because she is a rookie here on the board.

Well, Cushing had to suffer that mokawk last year as a rookie. And then there is the coiffure currently being sported by Tim Tebow in Denver:

He looks like a Benedictine monk from the Dark Ages.

Anyway, he appears to be managing his rookie hazing in relatively good humor, and I am confident that HouTxFan will also weather the harassment she has had to endure here with a similarly enthusiastic sense of resolve.

 

[Number19]

Just to review ( I finally found what I was trying to remember ) Cushing did have elevated levels of hCG more than once, over an extended period of several months :

...the facts most people are assuming about the test are wrong. He had measurable amounts of hCG in September but that wasn't a positive test because the B sample wasn't in high enough quantities. He had the true positive test (both A and B samples) in November...

http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/05/brian_cushing_confirmation_bia.html

 

[Pollardized]

Okey dokey...sorry 'bout that...and didn't mean to cause such a stir! I've lurked here for quite a while, and just recently registered because I've enjoyed all the training camp discussions amongst you folks.

I didn't know how the rep thing worked, so be forewarned, I gave some others the "purple dot treatment" today too. No offense intended, I assure you. Btw, I'm not a guy; I'm a girl, and a kinda old girl at that. Plus...I wear glasses, I'm not very big, I have rheumatoid arthritis, and I love the Houston Texans, just as I did the Oilers before them. So please, guys, try to keep the beating about my head and shoulders to a bare minimum, k?

All I was trying to say to you Pollardized, was . I love Bernard Pollard, and I thought your comment was pretty damn funny.

Ok HouTxFan!!!! I didn't mean for there to be drama either. I noticed someone new in another post talking smack, thougth maybe it was something like that and they were adding neg rep for people!!! Welcome to the board. If anyone gives you any trouble, warn them: they will be POLLARDIZED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Let me redirect you to the binding language of the CBA agreed to by the NFLPA.

This policy specifically means that:
-- PLAYERS may not, under any circumstances, have Prohibited Substances in their systems or supply or facilitate the distribution of Prohibited Substances to other
players.

In accepting this policy, the NFLPA concomitantly accepted the criteria of player selection for testing, the testing procedures, and the appeals process:

Upon appeal of a positive test result, the League shall have the initial burden to establish a prima facie violation of the Policy, and the specimen collectors, Independent Administrator, Consulting Toxicologist and testing laboratories will be presumed to have collected and analyzed the player’s specimen in accordance with the Policy. The player may, however,
rebut that presumption by establishing that a departure from the Policy’s stated protocols occurred during the processing of his specimen. In such case, the League shall have the burden of establishing that the departure did not materially affect the validity of the positive test or other violation.

and the disciplinary consequences:

The League will designate a time and place for a hearing, at which either the Commissioner or his designee will preside as Hearing Officer. The player may be accompanied by counsel and may present relevant evidence or testimony in support of his appeal. Additionally, the NFL Players Association may attend and participate notwithstanding the player's use of other representation.

After the record has been closed, the Hearing Officer will issue a written decision, which will constitute a full, final, and complete disposition of the appeal and which will be binding on all parties.

 

[Number19]

Under the Disabilities Act, there is definitely grounds for legal action in the federal courts if the "prohibited substance" is the result of a medical condition.

 

[Pollardized]

"I personally believe that Brian Cushings are unable to pass tests because, uh some players out there in our NFL don't have hCG and I believe that our players like such as BERNARD POLLARD, and uh, the Cush everywhere like such as, I believe they should get out there and knock the piss out of somebody!" - Miss Teen South Carolina

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Under the Disabilities Act, there is definitely grounds for legal action in the federal courts if the "prohibited substance" is the result of a medical condition.

I would have to defer the answer to this question to an attorney. But, with my limited experience in this arena of medical legal, I thought that the Disabilities Act could be bypassed BY MUTUAL AGREEMENT, ala the CBA?

-- PLAYERS may not, under any circumstances, have Prohibited Substances in their systems or supply or facilitate the distribution of Prohibited Substances to other
players.

 

[Dutchrudder]

I think he got elevated HCG levels from eating too many Oreo's and milk. Who knows what the hell that white stuff is made out of???

 

[Texan_Bill]

"I personally believe that Brian Cushings are unable to pass tests because, uh some players out there in our NFL don't have hCG and I believe that our players like such as BERNARD POLLARD, and uh, the Cush everywhere like such as, I believe they should get out there and knock the piss out of somebody!" - Miss Teen South Carolina

I support this message!

 

[Malloy]

"I personally believe that Brian Cushings are unable to pass tests because, uh some players out there in our NFL don't have hCG and I believe that our players like such as BERNARD POLLARD, and uh, the Cush everywhere like such as, I believe they should get out there and knock the piss out of somebody!" - Miss Teen South Carolina

Arg, good old Miss Caroliina!

 

[Number19]

I would have to defer the answer to this question to an attorney. But, with my limited experience in this arena of medical legal, I thought that the Disabilities Act could be bypassed BY MUTUAL AGREEMENT, ala the CBA?

I agree on deferring. I wonder if a prior mutual agreement can prevent an otherwise qualified newcomer, from employment, due to a medical condition. Would this hold up in court. An interesting question. If this holds any water, there will be a rule change,imo, simply because of the possibility of a future lawsuit

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Knowing that the amount to trigger the fail is unlikely unless:
A) You have a fairly easy to spot tumor....or
B) You took this as a masking agent at the end of a Steroid "cycle"

This is totally wrong, though.

A) The tumor may not be easy to spot.

B) hCG is NOT a masking agent. It doesn't hide that you took steroids. Old time bodybuilders used hCG to kick start their natural testosterone production after a cycle. Let me say this again... hCG is NOT a masking agent.

 

[eriadoc]

PLAYERS may not, under any circumstances, have Prohibited Substances in their systems or supply or facilitate the distribution of Prohibited Substances to other players.

That doesn't say they can't take prohibited substances; it says they can't have them in their systems. So all of you who think Cush didn't take anything can go on believing that and it sounds like it'll remain irrelevant.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

That doesn't say they can't take prohibited substances; it says they can't have them in their systems. So all of you who think Cush didn't take anything can go on believing that and it sounds like it'll remain irrelevant.

This is the same as the AAU. You're responsible for what's in your system and it doesn't matter how it got there. If something is against the "rules", then you're screwed.

However... in some cases, if you can PROVE that certain levels are "natural" for you, you can get a waiver.

In this case, from the way they're talking, it almost seems like they're trying to get Goodell to change the basic rule so that it takes personal baselines into account.

I'm thinking that some of the medical evidence they have is from Cush's blood itself. They probably had him under close medical supervision with lots of blood samples taken to show his hCG going up and down in correlation to his workout routines or something like that. *** I have no proof of this, it's just supposition. ***

 

[Number19]

I would have to defer the answer to this question to an attorney. But, with my limited experience in this arena of medical legal, I thought that the Disabilities Act could be bypassed BY MUTUAL AGREEMENT, ala the CBA?

The more I think about it, this is a valid legal point and seems to guarantee this this will end up in a court room if the suspension is not suspended.

Cushing is now aware of a medical condition which is in conflict with league rules and which can prevent him from employment as a professional football player if it reoccurs in the future. If this is not legally settled at this point in time, your point of mutual agreement may very well come into play in the future.

Is there a lawyer in the house.

 

[HouTxFan]

You guys were giving her the business because she is a rookie here on the board.

Well, Cushing had to suffer that mokawk last year as a rookie. And then there is the coiffure currently being sported by Tim Tebow in Denver:

He looks like a Benedictine monk from the Dark Ages.

Anyway, he appears to be managing his rookie hazing in relatively good humor, and I am confident that HouTxFan will also weather the harassment she has had to endure here with a similarly enthusiastic sense of resolve.

Woulda been a lot easier if they had just given me a

, but I can handle it...(I think?!)

 

[drs23]

This is totally wrong, though.

A) The tumor may not be easy to spot.

B) hCG is NOT a masking agent. It doesn't hide that you took steroids. Old time bodybuilders used hCG to kick start their natural testosterone production after a cycle. Let me say this again... hCG is NOT a masking agent.

THANK YOU TPN. This has been discussed, defined, medical(ed) (is that a word?), documented, dissected and ________ ad nauseum. Keep up.

As to bringing it up again? Stay tuned.

 

[Number19]

This is the same as the AAU. You're responsible for what's in your system and it doesn't matter how it got there. If something is against the "rules", then you're screwed.

However... in some cases, if you can PROVE that certain levels are "natural" for you, you can get a waiver.

In this case, from the way they're talking, it almost seems like they're trying to get Goodell to change the basic rule so that it takes personal baselines into account.

I'm thinking that some of the medical evidence they have is from Cush's blood itself. They probably had him under close medical supervision with lots of blood samples taken to show his hCG going up and down in correlation to his workout routines or something like that. *** I have no proof of this, it's just supposition. ***

Excellent reasoning. +1

 

[MojoMan]

Woulda been a lot easier if they had just given me a

, but I can handle it...(I think?!)

You can.

Believe me, it can get worse than that. If you are going to allow that sort of guff to intimidate you, then I would strongly advise you steer clear of the "No Spin Zone" forum of this board, where politics and current events are discussed. You have been sailing on some pretty calm waters compared to what you can expect to routinely encounter in the NSZ. Just saying.

 

[GNTLEWOLF]

The more I think about it, this is a valid legal point and seems to guarantee this this will end up in a court room if the suspension is not suspended.

Cushing is now aware of a medical condition which is in conflict with league rules and which can prevent him from employment as a professional football player if it reoccurs in the future. If this is not legally settled at this point in time, your point of mutual agreement may very well come into play in the future.

Is there a lawyer in the house.

But what evidence exists that he has this condition? I mean the symptoms of this supposed syndrome don't sound like they fit Cush to me. But I'm no doctor.

 

[HouTxFan]

You can.

Believe me, it can get worse than that. If you are going to allow that sort of guff to intimidate you, then I would strongly advise you steer clear of the "No Spin Zone" forum of this board, where politics and current events are discussed. You have been sailing on some pretty calm waters compared to what you can expect to routinely encounter in the NSZ. Just saying.

I avoid political discussions whenever possible, so thanks for the heads up!

 

[GNTLEWOLF]

Also, I can appreciate fan loyalty, but I hope we all remember the mental gymnastics we have all gone through to excuse Cushing when some other player from another team has a similar problem in the future.

 

[JB]

But what evidence exists that he has this condition? I mean the symptoms of this supposed syndrome don't sound like they fit Cush to me. But I'm no doctor.

We don't know right now. It is all speculation because we do not know what new info was submitted to the NFL medical team. And maybe it is that Cushing does not stop working for long enough for the fatigue and other symptoms to set in. Plus he has his HC. And he may be a liar. But I want to believe him, and I will.

 

[Number19]

But what evidence exists that he has this condition? I mean the symptoms of this supposed syndrome don't sound like they fit Cush to me. But I'm no doctor.

No one knows, but some of us like to exercise our brain with possibilities. The Pencil Neck has the best reasoning. See post #168.

If something like this is close to what is occurring in Cushing's body and the league does not recognize it, Cushing HAS to make a court case of it to protect his future in the sport.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

This is the same as the AAU. You're responsible for what's in your system and it doesn't matter how it got there. If something is against the "rules", then you're screwed.

However... in some cases, if you can PROVE that certain levels are "natural" for you, you can get a waiver.

In this case, from the way they're talking, it almost seems like they're trying to get Goodell to change the basic rule so that it takes personal baselines into account.

I'm thinking that some of the medical evidence they have is from Cush's blood itself. They probably had him under close medical supervision with lots of blood samples taken to show his hCG going up and down in correlation to his workout routines or something like that. *** I have no proof of this, it's just supposition. ***

If done properly, it's not that easy. The problem I would see with that approach is that this would have to be conducted under controlled study conditions using large number of normal controls over a long period of time. The results would have to be blinded (none of the researchers knowing his sample from all the other large number of samples) and reproducible..........and with solid proof of not taking HCG to alter the results throughout the period of the study. That would be a tall almost insurmountable burden. But actual incontrovertible "evidence" would be necessary to prove his case, not mere extropolation............and still reproducibility of study results by another group (and lab) would be needed to "verify and validate" the conclusion.

 

[JB]

If done properly, it's not that easy. The problem I would see with that approach is that this would have to be conducted under controlled study conditions using large number of normal controls over a long period of time. The results would have to be blinded (none of the researchers knowing his sample from all the other large number of samples) and reproducible..........and with solid proof of not taking HCG to alter the results throughout the period of the study. That would be a tall almost insurmountable burden. But actual incontrovertible "evidence" would be necessary to prove his case, not mere extropolation............and still reproducibility of study results by another group (and lab) would be needed to "verify and validate" the conclusion.

I'm probably too drunk to understand what you are saying, but could he not just use his own body to prove a pattern? At least enough to get the NFL's medical team to reevaluate?

 

[MEGA SWATT]

cut it to 2 games!

 

[JB]

cut it to 2 games!

No, temporarily suspend sentence.... kinda like the Williams bros.

 

[Big Lou]

Goodell: Well thanks for coming Bob, we'll take your comments under advisement, and hey thanks for coming up here to New York.

McNair: No, thank you Roger, I appreciatte you giving me a couple of minuts of your time.... Oh whats that award right there for, (McNair points to a frame on the wall, and quickly throws something on the ground....)

Goodell: Oh that was from the United Way for bieng, well it's just recognition, very nice of them...

McNair: (Motions to the ground where he just threw something) Roger you just dropped something!

Goodell: (Leans down to grab it, but Goodell beats him to it, hands it to Roger.) Oh thanks Bob.

McNair: Hey Roger you dropped this........ this check....... for 5 million dollars.... Roger you shouldn't be carrying this around you need to deposiot this.

Goodell: Oh must have fell out of my jacket.

McNair: Must have!




Wednesday 8/19/10: NFL announces new drug testing procedures. and Brian Cushings was retested, results show Over Trained Athlete Disorder.

 

[Big Lou]

I am worried this is a preemptive strike from McNair because POSSIBLY Cushing has already failed another test which hasn't been released yet.

Look at how long we didn't know about the failed test from the previous season.

Hopefully this is not the case. I'm just spit-ballin' here.

Big fan of Cushing, but am worried due to McNair going to these extremes in light of the odds that are stacked against Cushing. Either this is an owner trying to go to bat for his player, or it's an attempt to head off future problems or pending problems that haven't surfaced yet.

Not saying it's impossible, but I don't see McNair putting his rep on the line for someone that tests positive twice. He really seems to value character guys.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

I'm probably too drunk to understand what you are saying, but could he not just use his own body to prove a pattern? At least enough to get the NFL's medical team to reevaluate?

Would you bet your life empirically on the "evidence" submitted? There has to be a method of verifying and validating the results. And by the time the results are reproduced, if they even can be, the 5 game suspension would have been served.

Technically, even if the "new evidence" is validated, the opportunity for submission by the very Policy of the CBA, was offered and not produced/available (for whatever reason) prior to the final appeals decision.......that "decision being binding to all parties."

 

[drs23]

Would you bet your life empirically on the "evidence" submitted? There has to be a method of verifying and validating the results. And by the time the results are reproduced, if they even can be, the 5 game suspension would have been served.

Technically, even if the "new evidence" is validated, the opportunity for submission by the very Policy of the CBA, was offered and not produced/available (for whatever reason) prior to the final appeals decision.......that "decision being binding to all parties."

Doc,

Come on now, it's 4, huh?

 

[Vinnie]

I guess time will tell. He's going to be tested like crazy now for not just hcg, but elevated testosterone, other supplements etc. If he has negative tests for a while and then all of a sudden tests positive again for hcg, they really need to revisit the "occuring naturally" phenomenon before suspending him for two seasons. Between me, the message board, and the fence post though, I don't see that scenario unfolding.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

But what evidence exists that he has this condition? I mean the symptoms of this supposed syndrome don't sound like they fit Cush to me. But I'm no doctor.

Apparently, he's seen a whole bunch of doctors and he's got a lot of medical testimony to back it up. I think that's what got McNair on board.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

I'm probably too drunk to understand what you are saying, but could he not just use his own body to prove a pattern? At least enough to get the NFL's medical team to reevaluate?

Basically, just taking one person and showing what their body does over time doesn't really provide any control of a host of other variables. To be able to present this in an airtight fashion, you'd basically have to cut the subject off from the rest of the world to make sure they didn't take anything on the side.

Then to have this truly scientific, you'd have to put Cushing through a whole series of rigorous tests after having him do certain things AND taking certain things BUT you'd have to do it double blind where Cush didn't know what he was taking and the guy giving him things didn't know what he was taking. To do this right, you'd have to have a large group of people and you'd have to separate them into at least 2 groups: a control group that nothing was done to and a test group that was taking whatever stuff you were giving. And then you'd have to analyze your results.

BUT.

I don't think you'd necessarily have to do a full on scientific study for this. If you can find a few doctors who will say "It could be this" and a few doctors who will say "I have seen this happen" and a few doctors who will say "This could be happening to Cushing", you could present a case based on that. I think if one of these doctors took a few blood samples and was able to show some sort of pattern that he's seen in another patient (or patients), that would be sufficient. I think. But then, I'm not a lawyer or a doctor. So I could be wrong.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Doc,

Come on now, it's 4, huh?

My bad....hit the wrong key.

 

[JB]

Apparently, he's seen a whole bunch of doctors and he's got a lot of medical testimony to back it up. I think that's what got McNair on board.

That's what I'm thinking. they have found something to make it possible that he is an unique individual in this regard. I can't discount the possibility, no matter how small the likelihood. I guess I'm too much a homer.

I WANT TO BELIEVE!

 

[Vinnie]

But what evidence exists that he has this condition? I mean the symptoms of this supposed syndrome don't sound like they fit Cush to me. But I'm no doctor.

Dude, he had a hyperbaric chamber! That took away the side affects. Kind of like a beer for breakfast after you wake up with a pounding hangover.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

For me, there have always been two huge issues about this case that just don't make sense as presented.

1. hCG is no longer a popular drug. Most steroid users today who wanted to get their natural testosterone going would use Clomid or something else (and newer) than hCG. IF Cush is a PED user, I find it almost impossible to get my head around the idea of him using something so old-fashioned. I'd expect him to use something a lot more elegant and a lot more cutting edge.

2. It's hard to imagine someone having an hCG level high enough to trip the positive test level unless they took it. I hate to put words into CND's mouth, but when we were talking about this a few months ago, this is what I felt was his biggest issue.

So, to me, these two items contradict each other.

The only way it made sense to me was if Cush was taking some new cutting edge compound PED (not hCG) and it elevated his hCG levels unexpectedly. If this is the case, then the PED he was taking probably isn't illegal or banned BUT the fact that he had elevated hCG means that he should take his suspension and stop taking the compound that led to hte elevated levels.

BUT... if #2 is not true and there is a way to get hCG levels that high naturally without ingesting something, then all bets are off and I want that suspension lifted.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

My bad....hit the wrong key.

You are SO fired.

 

[ReliantTexan]

Correct me if I'm wrong,but the "evidence" or (overtrained athlete's syndrome) sounds like hearsay. Or simply a possible reason for someone testing positive for hcg rather than a medical condition.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Correct me if I'm wrong,but the "evidence" or (overtrained athlete's syndrome) sounds like hearsay. Or simply a possible reason for someone testing positive for hcg rather than a medical condition.

From what they're saying, the "evidence" is expert testimony. He's been to a bunch of doctors in the past year.

 

[michaelm]

Did anyone hear the interview with Dr. David Black around 4pm today on 610? It's interesting and worth a listen if you have a few minutes. Doctor Black describes the method which is used by the NFL for hCG testing, and how he believes that it wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny.

http://kilt.cbslocal.com/2010/08/09/dr-david-black/#more-12248


Here is an excerpt from the Yahoo.com article that (I believe) prompted 610 to have Dr. Black on the show.

And from what Dr. Black told me, contesting the test should be more about the process than the result. "The way in which HCG testing is conducted in sports is that they use a combination of two screening tests," Dr. Black said. "They don't use what we would practically consider to be a confirmatory test in forensic testing. They give one test and if they have an elevated answer [result], they run a second screening test. The belief is that the two screening tests will show the elevated HCG, but that's not standard practice in forensic drug testing. Forensic drug testing would require a confirmatory test that is based on a second and different technology than the screening test. So, the question, I think, would still be undecided as to whether or not the test results indicate use of HCG, or whether or not this is a true violation of the program."Dr. Black told me that the screening-test technology is based on an antibody-based test -- "these antibodies are developed that can recognize the possible presence of a drug or chemical. These kinds of screening tests are used for all sorts of drug testing. But the standard practice in forensic drug testing is that if you have a positive, you then want to use a confirmatory technology, and the confirmatory technology that is accepted in the court systems is called Mass Spectrometry. This is a much more elegant, sophisticated, and definite way of identifying if something is truly present. Screening tests are generally good to show when something is not present. If you really want to show that something is present, you use confirmatory test technology."
So, the NFL does not use Mass Spectrometry? "Not in this test. The NFL uses Mass Spectrometry in virtually all other tests. For this test, they just use the combination of the two different screening tests, which should not be standard practice for identifying if someone has used HCG.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner

 

[ReliantTexan]

Goodell comments

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp10/news/story?id=5449113 not sure if posted

"I did meet with Bob at his request," Goodell said Monday during a previously scheduled conference call with Texans season ticket holders. "I'm trying to get all the facts correct, so we make sure we are making the right decision."

As you know in the medical profession, there are rarely absolutes and there are varying opinions," he said. "We want to make sure we listen to all the experts and understand all the facts."

 

[cuppacoffee]

Thanks Mr. Mojo. I appreciate the welcome...kinda thought I might should just pack up my walker and go back to lurking, but...
so I didn't really want to do that.

This is the best place to get your Texan fix and your Texan news.

Lots of knowledgeable fans here.

Welcome aboard. Just say what's on your mind and leave your feelings in a safe place.

 

[eriadoc]

I WANT TO BELIEVE!

For me, there have always been two huge issues about this case that just don't make sense as presented.

1. hCG is no longer a popular drug. Most steroid users today who wanted to get their natural testosterone going would use Clomid or something else (and newer) than hCG. IF Cush is a PED user, I find it almost impossible to get my head around the idea of him using something so old-fashioned. I'd expect him to use something a lot more elegant and a lot more cutting edge.

2. It's hard to imagine someone having an hCG level high enough to trip the positive test level unless they took it. I hate to put words into CND's mouth, but when we were talking about this a few months ago, this is what I felt was his biggest issue.

I guess I'll respond to both of these posts with the same phrase:

Occam's Razor.