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Kubiak Supporters: Why should he stay?
- Thread starter Mr. White
- Start date
MannyFresh
El Capitan
And don't bring up Jeff Fisher's coach start/record either!!!! I curious to see what the Kubiak homers have to say.
Stemp
Brew Master
What makes the "Fire Kubiak" crowd think that bringing in a new coach is going to mean a more successful team? What is plaguing Kubiak will plague the next coach just as much: Not enough playmakers on Defense, especially the secondary and players failing to make plays. I honestly think Kubiak has the team in a position to win every week, but the players just are not executing as well as they should. A new coach won't guarantee more success and most likely will mean a step backward, at least for a season or two. Are you really to endure/invest 2 more seasons of no playoffs to try someone new that may or may not pan out?
How about from a non-supporter?
1) He has made marked improvement in the team's roster. I think he has had some big misses in a few people he's picked up and missed some opportunities, but this is a team that is talented enough to win. I credit Kubiak at least as much as Rick Smith in this.
2) His ability to lead and inspire is clear. This was especially true the first three seasons, although I think continued mediocrity in the final accounting each season may be reducing this admittedly unmeasurable quality for this particular team. This is one reason I think he may find more personal success if he moves on to his next opportunity.
3) He has raised the level of play that we see during the good times. That has been counteracted by the fact that the bad play is just as bad as it has always been, and that is with superior talent. However, further improvement may be found in correcting mistakes (his as well as the players). It is probably easier to correct mistakes than build new good stuff. I question whether Kubiak has the flexibility of thought to correct the mistakes though. His sticking with the script on game days is a manifestation of his whole approach to coaching, IMO.
I've ended up mixing some of his good qualities with what counters them, but the good qualities exist. I personally don't think he can reach the next level with the Texans at this time, although he might become a great coach.
I also believe he'll be here for his fifth season.
1) He has made marked improvement in the team's roster. I think he has had some big misses in a few people he's picked up and missed some opportunities, but this is a team that is talented enough to win. I credit Kubiak at least as much as Rick Smith in this.
2) His ability to lead and inspire is clear. This was especially true the first three seasons, although I think continued mediocrity in the final accounting each season may be reducing this admittedly unmeasurable quality for this particular team. This is one reason I think he may find more personal success if he moves on to his next opportunity.
3) He has raised the level of play that we see during the good times. That has been counteracted by the fact that the bad play is just as bad as it has always been, and that is with superior talent. However, further improvement may be found in correcting mistakes (his as well as the players). It is probably easier to correct mistakes than build new good stuff. I question whether Kubiak has the flexibility of thought to correct the mistakes though. His sticking with the script on game days is a manifestation of his whole approach to coaching, IMO.
I've ended up mixing some of his good qualities with what counters them, but the good qualities exist. I personally don't think he can reach the next level with the Texans at this time, although he might become a great coach.
I also believe he'll be here for his fifth season.
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
That really wasn't what I was looking for. If you want to argue the other side's logic, then there are a ton of other threads to choose from.
Not to mention you're speaking in hypotheticals. I'm looking for concrete reasons why he should keep his job.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
You basically missed the point of the thread. Your paragraph had nothing but assumptions. There is no rule that teams take 2 steps backward. In fact many teams move forward as shown in Atlanta, Miami, etc. That is a made up rule that just isn't true anymore. Secondly, players not executing is on the coach. Either they don't have the discipline for it or they aren't taught right in practice. I'll keep brining this up in every thread but the most credible thing I've heard was Bill Maas on the radio the other day. The Chiefs used to be the Texans until Marty S got there. He said the day he got there, they got better because they were disciplined in areas they didn't even realize they needed. I think it is dead on here. If a mistake is made once in awhile, chalk it up to a player. If a mistake is a constant over 3 years, chalk it up to coaching and not being coached up right.
Great minds........
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
QFT! I couldn't agree more, Runner. You said it better than I ever could.
None of this is an argument for Kubiak as is an argument against change and why he has not completed a task that should be expected in four years: one above .500 and/or playoffs wins.
What is Kubiak specifically doing well?
Stemp said:
Is it out of the question to think a new coach, with different strengths and weaknesses, might correct some of the long running problems with this team while building on the foundation Kubiak has put in place?
I would like to see this thread stick to the original topic. Why might Kubiak succeed if he is kept a fifth year? (I already know I'll be disappointed in this).
Can I ask that the "my side is better than your side" rhetoric be put in all the other threads dedicated go that topic? I'll even participate!
Thanks, although I didn't think the "than build new good stuff" part was particularly well phrased.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Thanks, although I didn't think the "than build new good stuff" part was particularly well phrased.
Which is probably still phrased better than what HOU-TEX could do.
Stemp
Brew Master
The overall question is "why should he stay". My point was bringing in a new coach isn't going to guarantee success.
Look at the Raiders since 2003, 4 coaching changes, zero winning seasons. Look at the 49ers since 2003, 3 different coaches zero winning seasons. Look at the Bills since 2000, they've had 1 winning season with 3 different coaches. Seattle isn't doing well with Mora. People pointed to Atlanta and Miami as bad teams that got much better with the new coach. Are they the exception or the norm? Atlanta and Miami both had an 11-5 records last year yes. But what about so far this year? Both are 6-6. When Miami got Saban, they went 9-7 and the 6-10 the year after. Atlanta got Mora in 2004 and went 11-5 then 8-8 then 7-9.Shoot, Tom Landry had 6 losing seasons before a winning season for our friends up 45 N. .
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
The topic doesn't have anything to do with any other hypothetical coach.
I want to know what makes Kubiak such a good coach that he deserves another year.
Cjeremy635
Overtraining
This is more how I look at it too. I see the marked improvements that he has made and I look at the % of success if we bring in someone new. If you could guarantee me that a new coach would equal playoffs, I'd be fine with a change, right this minute. But the fact of the matter is, there are coaching changes every year and they don't all equate to an immediate winning season or playoffs.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Both Atlanta and Miami made drastic jumps and are still in the playoff hunt despite horrible injuries on both teams. Miami still has a shot at their division with the Pats in it. The Landry thing doesn't fly. For every Landry there are 20 Wannstedts.
Cjeremy635
Overtraining
That's BS. It has everything to do with a new "hypothetical coach" because if you are thinking about firing him, you have to be thinking about replacing him with someone who you think will be more successful than him with what we currently have in place...to win now. The current group wanting him fired is pissed because we are not going to the playoffs. You want it now.....which I would imagine every fan of this team wants the playoffs right now too. So to not imagine another coach, using the existing personel (which is going to be the fastest way to get to the playoffs), would not fit into the "WIN NOW" concept that is pushing for this dude to get fired.
spurstexanstros
Texans Rising
The team is getting better and better each year...the bad thing is the losses are more heartbreaking because the team is getting better and better.
I would take this team under Kubiak over any under Capers. Kubiak drafting skills are very good....last year's second round being the exception.
I would take this team under Kubiak over any under Capers. Kubiak drafting skills are very good....last year's second round being the exception.
Silver Oak
All Pro
nothing stated here will sway your opinion, but for the sake of argument, here's mine:
-elevated our offense from #28 in the league, to a top 10 offense league wide
-raised our passing offense up to #4 in the NFL from #27 when he arrived here
-improved total team defense from bottom 20%, up to top 50% at #16 overall
-not as empirical as you may prefer, but I don not believe there is a team in the league that sees Houston on the schedule and pencils it in as an automatic win. a vast improvement from 3 years ago...also, visit other team MB's and most all fans think we are on the verge of being a very good team.
-has identified, replaced, and purged the team of dead weight even while operating under financial constraints
Cjeremy635
Overtraining
So you can't tell me why Kubiak deserves to stay based on the job he is doing.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
We should keep him, because getting trounced in our division never
looked so good. Next season will look better, because we won't get
4 division games in a row, so we'll be able to pepper in those division
losses. Kubiak has gotten us to finish 6-4, 7-3, and we are now 4-2
against everyone NOT in the AFC South.
Who cares about the division anyway... It's only six games (which count
60% towards our conference record)!
looked so good. Next season will look better, because we won't get
4 division games in a row, so we'll be able to pepper in those division
losses. Kubiak has gotten us to finish 6-4, 7-3, and we are now 4-2
against everyone NOT in the AFC South.
Who cares about the division anyway... It's only six games (which count
60% towards our conference record)!
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
How is it BS? I'm the one asking the question here. If it doesn't get answered, then what's BS about that? Isn't that for me to say?
We should have kept Capers with this logic.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
Jeff Fisher DID go 3-13 the year before they drafted VY, so......
We should have kept Capers.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
Hey, now. Those wins weren't automatic... But your meltdowns
in the 4th quarter DEFINITELY were!!
Added,
The Jacksonville Jaguars.
houstonspartan
All Pro
So where are all the W's, genius?
And, people, please stop brining up Dom Capers. That was a lifetime ago, and we all agree that the team was a disaster back then. Let's focus on KUBIAK.
I don't think you should make the decision on "deserves". The question should be framed, "What do you think is the best move for the franchise." this isn't about Kubiak, as a person, its about the position of head coach. It is about how to get the most productivity both next year and beyond.
Mike
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
So almost 30 replies and 2 of them actually stuck to the question.
Does anyone have anything to add to this?
Does anyone have anything to add to this?
houstonspartan
All Pro
Stemp
Brew Master
Because it's only half the question. The other half is, can we find and be able to hire someone in who can do a better job and bring success. If there isn't someone who can do it better, then it's better to give another season than have the franchise regress.
There were tons of better coaches than Capers available and Kubiak IS much better than him. The question is, can we find and GET someone better than Kubiak?
Cjeremy635
Overtraining
That's it in a nutshell for me. If we make a change and go 4-12 or 6-10 next year, how pissed off would you be Mr. White? Those hoping for a change are doing so because you assume it would equate to immediate improvements. And it better, becuase if not, what's the point in making a change that big? I'm not for a change because I do not see a candidate on the market that I think is going to be able to do a better job than what we currently have. It's not like Kubes has screwed us up here, and you have to admit that we are a better team than before he got here. If you are willing to give a new coach a year or two to get us over the hump, then why not give the current coach another year to see if we can improve? I would feel different if we were like the Lions or the Bills, but we aren't. We have a good core of talented players and coaches. I also like the fact that our owner is more of the stability type and would prefer to have a coacing staff with a long tenure within his franchise. I honestly think that is the winning combination and will equal success for years to come vs. a one and done type of run.
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
The problem is that I'm not interested in the other half of the question. If I were, then I'd go to another thread where we talk about all the other hypothetical coaches behind Door #2.
Those have been done to death and I'm interested in other aspects of the debate now.
This thread's about the guy we have now.
And Tennesse Titans. And this year Jacksonville Jaguars.
To know what "best move for the franchise ," you need to know what are the strenghts and weakness of the administration. You can't figure where you need to go if you don't know where you are currently.
I'll disclaimer my devil's advocate reply with my own feelings that I think McNair will keep Kubiak through 2010 and I do not think the coach deserves it.
That being said, I can understand some of the pro-Kubiak crowd, even in disagreement.
-----------------------------------------
The offense has improved, but player mistakes and lack of depth are preventing it from being consistent week in/week out. These guys get paid a lot of money to catch balls and hold on when carrying the ball, and I would venture that at the professional level, the individual player has more to do with these mistakes than coaches. As far as lack of depth, Kubiak was saddled with a roster full of players that mostly faded away when cut, as well as a wicked salary cap situation from Casserly's blunders that prevented Kubiak/Smith from acquiring players much more quickly.
With more experienced players and more depth on the roster, our offense could be a consistent force to be reckoned with. The offense - with the exception of glaring mistakes - is THE main thrust of any legit argument to be made for keeping Kubiak, IMO.
Kubiak's in-game coaching mistakes should be a learning experiences. (I do have to disclaimer this by saying it does not appear to me that he is actually learning from his mistakes, but the argument could be made that he should be learning from them.)
Kubiak gets decent grades on his drafts. This is arguable, but it is clear that we seem to find more gems in later rounds than the previous regime. Although this is a 'glass half full' perspective, simply because there was nowhere to look but up after the disaster of Capers/Casserly. If they can retain the draft gems, then they are building through the draft and there is potential that the next draft will net the same results.
The players have another year in Kubiak's system. There is something to be said when you watch NFLN/ESPN and learn that other OCs are studying Kubiak's offense for ideas. It's a copy-cat league, so you have to give props to the original idea being copied. Will continuity and familiarity with this offense help our players next season? Stay tuned, because we'll find out.
First year DC has shown slight improvement in our defense. I feel like this is a stretch, but it is an argument that is being made. Like the point above, the logic is that another year of familiarity and another draft into the system could be a good thing.
-----------------------------------------
Now, I could counter every one of these points, but that's not what the OP requested in this thread. These are the pro-Kubiak points that I have heard and make some sort of sense, so I'm just posting as a devil's advocate in order to full comprehend why someone would want to give a mediocre head coach another year.
That being said, I can understand some of the pro-Kubiak crowd, even in disagreement.
-----------------------------------------
The offense has improved, but player mistakes and lack of depth are preventing it from being consistent week in/week out. These guys get paid a lot of money to catch balls and hold on when carrying the ball, and I would venture that at the professional level, the individual player has more to do with these mistakes than coaches. As far as lack of depth, Kubiak was saddled with a roster full of players that mostly faded away when cut, as well as a wicked salary cap situation from Casserly's blunders that prevented Kubiak/Smith from acquiring players much more quickly.
With more experienced players and more depth on the roster, our offense could be a consistent force to be reckoned with. The offense - with the exception of glaring mistakes - is THE main thrust of any legit argument to be made for keeping Kubiak, IMO.
Kubiak's in-game coaching mistakes should be a learning experiences. (I do have to disclaimer this by saying it does not appear to me that he is actually learning from his mistakes, but the argument could be made that he should be learning from them.)
Kubiak gets decent grades on his drafts. This is arguable, but it is clear that we seem to find more gems in later rounds than the previous regime. Although this is a 'glass half full' perspective, simply because there was nowhere to look but up after the disaster of Capers/Casserly. If they can retain the draft gems, then they are building through the draft and there is potential that the next draft will net the same results.
The players have another year in Kubiak's system. There is something to be said when you watch NFLN/ESPN and learn that other OCs are studying Kubiak's offense for ideas. It's a copy-cat league, so you have to give props to the original idea being copied. Will continuity and familiarity with this offense help our players next season? Stay tuned, because we'll find out.
First year DC has shown slight improvement in our defense. I feel like this is a stretch, but it is an argument that is being made. Like the point above, the logic is that another year of familiarity and another draft into the system could be a good thing.
-----------------------------------------
Now, I could counter every one of these points, but that's not what the OP requested in this thread. These are the pro-Kubiak points that I have heard and make some sort of sense, so I'm just posting as a devil's advocate in order to full comprehend why someone would want to give a mediocre head coach another year.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
Kubiak is like the the girl that teases you on the phone, and when you invite
her over, gives every excuse to not drop draws. Sometimes, as a man,
you need to convince yourself that you CAN do better. Enough with
the teasin.'
As somebody said in another thread: "THIS year was the
'****-or-get-off-the-pot' year."
Cjeremy635
Overtraining
I get it, you're pissed, but you don't have to be such a smart ass to the people posting in this thread. You asked a question and he answered it the way he saw fit. I don't think he was rude with his answers and I thought he answered it just fine and with a well thought out response. I'm done with this thread. The thruth of the matter is, you are going to be try to belittle anyone who does not agree with your agenda. Great, have fun with that. Maybe when you're done, you can go to McDonalds and pick a fight with the kids playing in the ball pit....I'm out.
So why you can't answer one half of the question?
Again what is Kubiak doing well as the coach of the Houston Texans?
You have no way of saying who is better or not if not, if you can't even list out the strengths and weaknesses of what you have.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Because in 2006, he had a crappy team. We drafted #1 overall, and he has built that team up from nothing. The Saints drafted #2 overall, the Titans drafted VY, and even the Jets drafted #4. Look what they've done.
Wait, what?
The '07 Falcons lost their starting QB (both of them, LOL) and won 4 games. They changed head coaches. Clearly, change is very disruptive.
Ooops, that doesn't work either. I'll keep trying. There has to be a Dolphins example in here somewhere.
Wait, what?
The '07 Falcons lost their starting QB (both of them, LOL) and won 4 games. They changed head coaches. Clearly, change is very disruptive.
Ooops, that doesn't work either. I'll keep trying. There has to be a Dolphins example in here somewhere.
Silver Oak
All Pro
think I'll bow out of these threads for a while myself. I answered your original question with facts and statistics, yet you chose to not address them at all.
have fun!
have fun!
spurstexanstros
Texans Rising
Well who would you like me to compare him to? As I recall the Texans have had only two coaches...and no not a lifetime ago 4 years. I see the team making progress on offense and defense. That is a credit to the head coach...sure I am baffled by the play calling but look at it this way. Kubiak has put the team in the position to win it is up to the players to excecute.
In most of the losses the team was in the position to win but due to the failure of the players (and not the COACH) the team is where it is at now.
1st Jacksonville game (fumble)
Arizona game pic-6 and bad call
1st colts game missed FG
2nd titans game missed FG
So that is 4 games where the players messed it up. I give you the two bad games of Indy and Jacksonville during which Kubiak had some questionable strategies. However if the players would have excecuted in 4 out of the seven losses at crunch time then this would be a whole new ball of wax.
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
think I'll bow out of these threads for a while myself. I answered your original question with facts and statistics, yet you chose to not address them at all.
have fun!
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1321357&postcount=29
That's all I got for now. Maybe I'll address them when I see more answers that address the question.
Believe it or not, I'm not fishing for an argument here. I'm trying to understand the attachment.
Cjeremy635 said:
I don't think the two (now three) people who responded to the op feel belittled in any responses to those posts. I see anger and agenda coming from pro-Kubiak posters who don't bother with trying to participate in the thread's discussion point. Now we have the "because I said so" crap polluting this from both sides.
I find it ironic that two of the three posters who listed what they think Kubiak can bring to the table next year are not his supporters at all. At least we can see that point of view and can enumerate some of the arguments in its favor.
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
Rude and belittling? What was this?
I'm just talking football. Looks like you're taking it personal.
The only agenda that I have is for my team to win more football games. I don't care who starts or sits, gets cut or fired or who sells the team to make that happen.
In the meantime, I'd like to understand the logic of the people that want to keep him around.
rollinstone18
let it bleed
must spread rep...
But, we have nothing to show for it but 2 straight 8-8 seasons. With a 3rd looming on the horrizon. You can't be content with that.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
you must have been a big RnS fan. Offense can be entertaining but I've seen dozens and dozens of mediocre teams with good offenses over the years. After all that sunshine in your post, Kubiak has only managed to beat Capers best record by one win...in 3 years. For a guy who has brought the team so far he sure does have a crappy record.
Goldensilence
hipster elite
For the Record I'm not a a fan of the idea of Gary Kubiak getting an extra year, so barring an 0-4 melt down (which Mike already said he's fine with) he'll likely get an extra year.
Gary has done a good job elevating an offense that could barely move under David Carr into a top 10 offense. Last year it finished #3 in the league. This year I think it's 6th or seventh.
He's done a good job in bringing in guys behind AJ and made a good WR Corps.
OD has turned from a 4th round former QB converted into a TE that has evolved into one of the best in the league that made the pro bowl last year. This year he w as looking at another pro bowl invite before injury.Granted I think Owen himself deserves a lot of credit for that.
I'm still left wondering after seeing some of the other quick turn around in the league, how much time and patience is bought by turning an 2-14 team into an 8-8 team?
Overall under Gary the play of the OL has improved pretty dramatically. He's cut the sack totals down to at last half of what they were under David Carr.
This year he finally got "his coach" at defensive coordinator who has gotten the defense into at least the mediocre range instead of pure crap. Last I saw they were like 17th I think overall.
Gary's done a pretty good job of turning the roster over and him and Rick have done a decent job in the draft. He's done a good job bargain shopping for McNair.
Overall I think Gary has done some good things for this franchise. I don't think the "anti" Kubiak crowd ignores them. I just think it's a matter of how much further can he take the team?
Gary has done a good job elevating an offense that could barely move under David Carr into a top 10 offense. Last year it finished #3 in the league. This year I think it's 6th or seventh.
He's done a good job in bringing in guys behind AJ and made a good WR Corps.
OD has turned from a 4th round former QB converted into a TE that has evolved into one of the best in the league that made the pro bowl last year. This year he w as looking at another pro bowl invite before injury.Granted I think Owen himself deserves a lot of credit for that.
I'm still left wondering after seeing some of the other quick turn around in the league, how much time and patience is bought by turning an 2-14 team into an 8-8 team?
Overall under Gary the play of the OL has improved pretty dramatically. He's cut the sack totals down to at last half of what they were under David Carr.
This year he finally got "his coach" at defensive coordinator who has gotten the defense into at least the mediocre range instead of pure crap. Last I saw they were like 17th I think overall.
Gary's done a pretty good job of turning the roster over and him and Rick have done a decent job in the draft. He's done a good job bargain shopping for McNair.
Overall I think Gary has done some good things for this franchise. I don't think the "anti" Kubiak crowd ignores them. I just think it's a matter of how much further can he take the team?
Very good and valid points - and not stats for stats sake alone. I agree (with you & Bum Phillips) that we are on the verge of becoming a very good team. but...
To me the big question that remains is this:
Is Gary Kubiak the guy to get us OVER that hump?
IMHO - Given the Jekyll / Hyde of this team this team has shown from one half to the next in every game this year (w/ poss. exception of Bengals) one of two things must be true. Either: A) Kubiak & Co. performed miracles keepng us tied / ahead in games we had no business being in. or.. B) We are really as talented as we looked in the "good" half and the other half was so dreadfully coached, executed, etc. that it was painful to watch.
I love Kubiak, but I honestly have to say that it sure looks like the "B" option from here.