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"Texans players say they had illegal contract drills at 2008 mini-camp"

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Well, I guess that's YOUR opinion. I find it curious that you are essentially speculating when you theorize how it was that Kris Brown and Breuner went to Kubiak. You always rail on those who speculate, and here you are doing that very thing.

Watch closely, the difference really isn't hard to see. I didn't say, as you so often do, "this is what happened." I said there is context we don't know and it may have gone down like X. Bruener's silence sure doesn't point towards his agreement with Stevenson.

It's obvious you think those guys are extorting the Texans, pissed off about not making the team, looking for a payday, etc.

Extorting, no. Working to their own advantage, yes. The Texans broke the rules and need to compensate the players. Fans acting like this reflects something about the Texans distinct from any other team are the ones I think are naive.

I think they did an admirable thing.

Give me a break. If they hadn't been injured they would have said jack. This is self interest plain and simple. Nothing admirable about it.

Anybody who goes this far to support "the team" at the expense of individuals who make up "the team" is puzzling. If it was a number 1 draft pick who had this happened to him, a pro-bowl guy, we'd all be sending letters and emails to the Texans in disgust of what happened.

The Texans come across exactly how they should: They broke the rules, guys got hurt during drills that should not have happened. The responsibility is upon the coaching and management staff. Period. This is not how a man with integrity should lead those whom he in-turn asks to live a life of integrity. This is inexcusable. Our team SHOULD be punished. Any teams doing this should be punished. Period.

Step down from your sanctimonious soap box. You just enjoy being hyper-critical of the Texans. If a news report had come out with Kubiak announcing the Texans would not engage in the NFL wide practice of having one on ones and some contact when they shouldn't you would be railing on them for being too soft and unwilling to do what is necessary to win.

The Texans violated the rule and it is unfortunate someone got hurt. The Texans should deal fairly with the players hurt. The fact that the Texans violated the rule says zilch about them as an institution since the problem is league wide. If the league wants to do something about it they should do enough to get every team to stop so teams don't feel like they are at a competitive disadvantage if they don't do it.
 
Narrator: Black, meanwhile, is getting back into shape, having signed with the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Black: I'm looking forward to it, you know a change of venue, a fresh start. Everybody there: great guys, great coaches. I'm excited about being there.

Chucky Okobi, the third player injured in those drills during the minicamp, was released in June and has not signed with another team. Stevenson remains on the Texans roster, but wonders if he will ever play again. When the injury first happened, Stevenson says, Houston's medical staff said he had "...strained right shoulder blocking during minicamp at Reliant..." After it failed to improve, he received a second opinion from Orthopedic surgeon Dr. Neal Elattrache. Dr. Elattrache diagnosed multiple tears in Stevenson's right shoulder. (Shows document on screen of Dr.'s diagnosis of "Posterior labral tear, small posterior capsule tear, right shoulder in addition to posterior Bankart lesion.")

Narrator to Stevenson: What concerns did you have, at that point, that this had happened at a drill other players said should not have happened?

Stevenson: I was a little worried that they were going to try and cover it up, or try to kinda' hide the fact that I was hurt.

Narrator to TV audience: Stevenson began collecting information. He asked the team for the original trainer's report of his injury which said he had been injured during blocking drills. When he was placed on injured reserve in July, however, the report said he was injured "Participating in drills during an Organized Team Activity" He knew teammates would be reluctant to speak out against the Texans, but Jordan Black and another teammate, Fred Weary, signed sworn affidavits backing Stevenson's version of events.

Stevenson: I felt like for all this to be taken away from me, to be jeopardized, you know, not just for one season, but my entire football career, for something that wasn't supposed to be done, I was upset. And I felt like people weren't giving me the answers that I needed.
 
This is the same thing as colleges cheating in recruiting . It's a mindset that if you aren't cheating you ain't trying or nice guys finish last . You guys who are so appalled I guess never paracticed in the gymm in July in highschool .

The point is the NFL or NCAA will not come down on any off it because it weakens the product . Like Cak said ... the Texans had a couple of guys who told ... even taped it . It's fuuny that nobody else has come forward and Weary says Stephenson duped him .

It shows that you and a few others don't care about rules.

You can't interpret, on your own, what rules to follow and which to disobey. You are to follow the rules set out beforehand.

If your boss decided to only pay you every third month instead of more regularly, would you agree that that's fair to you? No. You signed on with your employer for the terms laid out in the interview and job acceptance stage of the agreement.

Look, you don't get it because you have a bent toward a way of thinking: Everyone cheats a little, everyone fudges things a little, so what's the big deal?

The big deal is that three guys got hurt. Maybe they weren't all that instrumental to the team's overall chances of success. But they are PEOPLE and they were harmed. And they were harmed in a reckless manner because of the inability of coaches and management staff to adhere by the rules of the CBA. It works both ways, fellas'.
 
Step down from your sanctimonious soap box. You just enjoy being hyper-critical of the Texans. If a news report had come out with Kubiak announcing the Texans would not engage in the NFL wide practice of having one on ones and some contact when they shouldn't you would be railing on them for being too soft and unwilling to do what is necessary to win.

The Texans violated the rule and it is unfortunate someone got hurt. The Texans should deal fairly with the players hurt. The fact that the Texans violated the rule says zilch about them as an institution since the problem is league wide. If the league wants to do something about it they should do enough to get every team to stop so teams don't feel like they are at a competitive disadvantage if they don't do it.

I do not "enjoy" being hyper-critical of the Texans. Now you're trying to build a strawman and burn it down. You'd fit in nicely with the same coaches who act with impunity toward the rules set forth in contractual agreements.

Come out and say it: You think this is bogus. And if you think this is bogus, then you indeed stand a great chance of wanting to somehow plant a seed in posters' heads that there just mayyyyyybe could have been a way that Brown and Breuner went to Kubiak out of obligation and not out of real concern for a teammate's health. That's speculation.

What I know of Kris Brown is that he is a man of integrity and character. I choose to believe that he went ot of genuine concern for the players. And what I know of Kubiak is that he might be more of a jerk than he is a guy who cares for his players: His aloof statements about Diles' injury "Where there is tragedy, there is opportunity..." etc.

When guys like Jerome Mathis get a pink slip, I applaud the team's coaches and management. We do not need guys who cause headaches.

When guys like Stevenson, Black, and Okobi get hurt during drills that were 100% NOT to have happened at all, and the Texans (a) refuse to pay for Black's surgery, and (b) send him compensation and yet try to state this is not "pay-off" money, then I have a problem with that.

I'm a fan of this team, despite any attempts you make to persuade others that I am not.

If Bob McNair wants to hang his hat on being this squeaky-clean team, refusing to even look at certain available players due to said players' conduct, then he needs to man up and deal with Kubiak and Smith. Maybe he already has. We wouldn't know it.

I want to post the rest of the interview, it's almost over, but wonder if it would even matter. It seems there's a set way of thinking in our culture that you do not EVER snitch on a coach that it seems useless.

If anybody wants the remainder of the interview, let me know.

I am battling sever bronchitis, flu, and all the lovely symptoms that go along with it. I need to take a cup of NyQuil and go to bed (again).
 
Outside The Lines: Sunday, Feb. 8th 2009

Stevenson: "There's a reason, you know, that drills like these are prohibited in the off-season. Football is dangerous enough as it is, there's high risk of injury. And when you're not wearing the proper pads, you're not protected."

Narrator: During a minicamp practice that the public never saw, offensive lineman Dan Stevenson, trying to make his third team in three years, suffered a shoulder injury that he says might have ended his NFL career. Stevenson filed a grievance against the Texans, saying he was hurt during "Prohibited full contact drills during an offseason minicamp with reckless disregard for the players' health." The NFL management counsel rejected his grievance, citing, among other factors, that the "Texans deny players were required to participate in drills which are explicitly prohibited."

Narrator to Stevenson, as they watch the video clips of the drills: Why did you think to tape this?

Stevenson: I just wanted to see it. I kinda' wanted to see for myself.

Narrator: Why did you tape it?

Stevenson: I think that they can obviously no longer deny that this drill ever happened.

Narrator as the clip turns from showing the drills, to then showing Stevenson's video footage of a Texans computer in Texans offices: What does this tell us?

Stevenson: This is how they break down film.

Narrator: Stevenson took a video camera into the Texans meeting room, and recorded the team's video of the practice off a computer terminal.

Narrator to Stevenson: It seems like you had more in mind than just to shoot the drill, that you knew you had to establish when it was, as much information as you could get.

Stevenson: Without a doubt.

Narrator, as TV shows the Texans' computer monitor playing the archived drill: This is May 9th, 2008...The Texans were prohibited from holding contact drills.

Narrator to Stevenson: What are we seeing here?

Stevenson: Right here you see that it's obviously a one-on-one pass rush drill at the minicamp.

Narrator to TV audience (as the NFL document is shown on screen): Article 36, section 4 of the CBA reads "There will be no contact work (e.g. "live" blocking,...)" According to Stevenson, and several other eye witnesses, Kris Brown, the team's union representative, and Mark Breuner, a member of the union's executive committee, confronted head coach Gary Kubiak and told him that the drill was prohibited. Both Breuner and Brown declined to speak to Outside The Lines. (holy crap balls!)

Stevenson to Narrator: So, uh, the players weren't happy. The player reps went to the coaches and said, you know, one-on-one, it's strictly prohibited. We can show you in the CBA where it says, you know, any type of live blocking drill, i.e. one-on-one pass rush is strictly prohibited. When they came back to us, the coaching staff pretty much said they were going to do what they wanted to do and run practices as they see fit.

Narrator to Stevenson: What kind of pads are you guys wearing?

Stevenson: Just helmets.

Narrator to Stevenson: During that first day, how intense did it get?

Stevenson: Ummm...it got very intense. Players were, like I said, trying to make the team, you know, and people were getting put on their backs. People were getting knocked over. Guys are getting pancaked. It's all out.

Jordan Black to the camera: Oh, it's full speed. I mean, you're there doing the drills, trying to make an impression on the coach.

Narrator to TV audience (as clip is shown): Lineman Jordan Black actually ripped a teammate's helmet off (vs. #96, Cochran I think).

Black: Pride is a big thing. Nobody wants to, uh, get beat by another player. You just always want to win out there.

Stevenson: It's what you need to do to survive. There's no gettin' around it. If the coach asks you to do something, umm, what are you going to do but go and try to show that you're good enough to make the 53-man roster?

Narrator to TV audience: The next day at practice, coaches ran the same drill at the same speed. Stevenson's first drill was his last. (clip is shown of Stevenson blocking #67)

Stevenson to narrator, as they watch the clip: I'm blocking him, blocking him, and bam! my arm goes.

Narrator to Stevenson: It's why you pulled back like that? (He says "Yes") Did you know right away? (He answers "Instantly")

Narrator to TV audience: Jordan Black was one of two other players who suffered season-ending injuries that day.

Black: I was going to punch the defensive end, he was trying to get around the outside of me, and he went to slap my arm off--so he could get that corner--as soon as he slapped my arm it just rotated, twisted, and my arm came out of its socket.

Narrator to TV audience (showing Jordan Black's "Notice of Termination" papers sent to him on June 9, 2008): A month after the incident, the Texans terminated Black. He says the team argued that he had NOT suffered an injury during the workout, and he was forced to pay for his own surgery. In September (showing the actual letter from Texans to Black) the Texans agreed to reimburse his medical bills. But even as they did, they noted that the payment "...does not constitute evidence nor any admission of the club's liability..."

Narrator: Black, meanwhile, is getting back into shape, having signed with the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Black: I'm looking forward to it, you know a change of venue, a fresh start. Everybody there: great guys, great coaches. I'm excited about being there.

Chucky Okobi, the third player injured in those drills during the minicamp, was released in June and has not signed with another team. Stevenson remains on the Texans roster, but wonders if he will ever play again. When the injury first happened, Stevenson says, Houston's medical staff said he had "...strained right shoulder blocking during minicamp at Reliant..." After it failed to improve, he received a second opinion from Orthopedic surgeon Dr. Neal Elattrache. Dr. Elattrache diagnosed multiple tears in Stevenson's right shoulder. (Shows document on screen of Dr.'s diagnosis of "Posterior labral tear, small posterior capsule tear, right shoulder in addition to posterior Bankart lesion.")

Narrator to Stevenson: What concerns did you have, at that point, that this had happened at a drill other players said should not have happened?

Stevenson: I was a little worried that they were going to try and cover it up, or try to kinda' hide the fact that I was hurt.

Narrator to TV audience: Stevenson began collecting information. He asked the team for the original trainer's report of his injury which said he had been injured during blocking drills. When he was placed on injured reserve in July, however, the report said he was injured "Participating in drills during an Organized Team Activity" He knew teammates would be reluctant to speak out against the Texans, but Jordan Black and another teammate, Fred Weary, signed sworn affidavits backing Stevenson's version of events.

Stevenson: I felt like for all this to be taken away from me, to be jeopardized, you know, not just for one season, but my entire football career, for something that wasn't supposed to be done, I was upset. And I felt like people weren't giving me the answers that I needed.

...i can transcribe the rest of it, if people desire it.
 
It shows that you and a few others don't care about rules.

You can't interpret, on your own, what rules to follow and which to disobey. You are to follow the rules set out beforehand.

If your boss decided to only pay you every third month instead of more regularly, would you agree that that's fair to you? No. You signed on with your employer for the terms laid out in the interview and job acceptance stage of the agreement.

Look, you don't get it because you have a bent toward a way of thinking: Everyone cheats a little, everyone fudges things a little, so what's the big deal?

The big deal is that three guys got hurt. Maybe they weren't all that instrumental to the team's overall chances of success. But they are PEOPLE and they were harmed. And they were harmed in a reckless manner because of the inability of coaches and management staff to adhere by the rules of the CBA. It works both ways, fellas'.

What you don't get is that's the way it is . You're going to tell me this isn't standard and that when Black goes to the Jaguars he won't do the same thing . Well ... maybe when he's not around .

The Steelers just won their 6th Super Bowl . They built their legacy in the 70's and if you go back and look ... a lot of them guys are dead . They also put on about 30 lbs of muscle after they got to Pittsburg .

Who's the Johnson guy from Colorado who retired with post concusion syndrom after playing with the Patriots . He now claims that The Pats forced him to play .

The Texans are doing what's standard and go 8-8 . If they didn't break any rules and went 4-12 ... hey they did this ... with a bunch of swell guys ... it would go over like a lead balloon . Until the league cracks down on everyone ... this stuff will continue but they won't ... why ... this is a NFLPA rule .
 
From what I've been able to gather almost all (if not all) teams do these illegal drills. Most players don't like being forced to do these drills. They also know that complaining about them is a waste of time at best and career limiting at worst. The teams have all of the power in this situation and they abuse it and break the agreements.

The specific Texans case just brings it to light because the players don't think the Texans are being accountable for the team's own actions. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't; that will apparently be decided in the courts.

This does tarnish the Texans image a little, because they are showing that they aren't any different than any other team, and the local fans have previously bought into the image of "a great team run by high character guys. A great place to play". They show are now publicly showing that they aren't any better in character than any other team - they don't follow their signed agreements, and it appears they lie about it when they get caught. I doubt that this will have much lasting bad effect on their image, because it appears most fans have as little regard for non-star players as the team does. Anything to win - although I'm not sure how many extra games these drills have won for the Texans each season.

I'm not even going to consider that they don't do these drills as they claim, because they do. Everyone does - right? The Texans should have the character they expect out of their players and own up to their actions.
 
I doubt that this will have much lasting bad effect on their image, because it appears most fans have as little regard for non-star players as the team does.

Why is this a star player v. non-star player issue? Everyone was doing the drills. Sure it would get even more press if it was a star player but that is after the fact. It wouldn't make any difference on how the team regards the different players.
 
From what I've been able to gather almost all (if not all) teams do these illegal drills. Most players don't like being forced to do these drills. They also know that complaining about them is a waste of time at best and career limiting at worst. The teams have all of the power in this situation and they abuse it and break the agreements.

The specific Texans case just brings it to light because the players don't think the Texans are being accountable for the team's own actions. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't; that will apparently be decided in the courts.

This does tarnish the Texans image a little, because they are showing that they aren't any different than any other team, and the local fans have previously bought into the image of "a great team run by high character guys. A great place to play". They show are now publicly showing that they aren't any better in character than any other team - they don't follow their signed agreements, and it appears they lie about it when they get caught. I doubt that this will have much lasting bad effect on their image, because it appears most fans have as little regard for non-star players as the team does. Anything to win - although I'm not sure how many extra games these drills have won for the Texans each season.

I'm not even going to consider that they don't do these drills as they claim, because they do. Everyone does - right? The Texans should have the character they expect out of their players and own up to their actions.

To me , this is like Biggio getting a DUI early in his career . Doesn't make him a bad guy . Is he the only ballplayer doing it ... nope . Does it make it right ... nope . Is there worse things ... yep . Did this event tarnish his image ... a tad .

To me here's what happened .

1. Gibbs comes in .
2. Gibbs likes overachievers , guys who are willing to do anything to get the job done .
3. The Texans OL is exposed to a tempo it's not used to .
4. Some guys fall out of favor , probably after the first hour .
 
I can't believe the people I see railing against the Texans in this thread. This goes on at every NFL team. The Texans were unlucky enough to have some fringe player narc on them to help his own civil lawsuit.

The fact that it goes on at every NFL team doesn't make it right, nor should it excuse it. If there's a rule against it, either get rid of the rule or abide by it.

I also agree that Stevenson doesn't come out looking good in this situation, but that doesn't exonerate the Texans. They (and every other team) take a chance by doing this stuff, and if they get busted, they have to face the consequences.
 
Why is this a star player v. non-star player issue? Everyone was doing the drills. Sure it would get even more press if it was a star player but that is after the fact. It wouldn't make any difference on how the team regards the different players.

I doubt the team (or fans) react the same way to this situation if an Eric Winston or Andre Johnson lose a season for the same reason. I think the team would do more to keep them happy, and the fans could see that the players lost something valuable.

That part of my post is just my opinion, of course. My main point is the teams have all the power in these situations and abuse it. Most players just accept it and do as they are told. I think it is wrong; in my mind there is no such thing as football ethics that make this acceptable on a football team if similar actions are wrong in the "real world".
 
To be clear, I think all teams are just as guilty of poor treatment of fair to middling players, not just the Texans. The Texans are just topical right now, and it seems many people think the team has done nothing wrong. I obviously disagree, and am discussing it as it pertains to the Texans.
 
To be clear, I think all teams are just as guilty of poor treatment of fair to middling players, not just the Texans. The Texans are just topical right now, and it seems many people think the team has done nothing wrong. I obviously disagree, and am discussing it as it pertains to the Texans.

I wonder if these guys would have done this to one of the high status teams /coaches ?
 
So the issue is the Texans were doing a drill that was strictly prohibited during that time in the offseason. I understand why the Texans wanted to do these drills, especially since Gibbs just came on board and was teaching the 'new' blocking scheme, they need all the practice they can get. But the bottom line is that the Texans did something against the rules and put themselves in jeopardy of getting punished by the league.

If Kubiak does this again and puts the club in jeopardy of getting in trouble more, then I'll have a bigger problem with it. But at this point, this will not be his last year as our Head Coach. Like some people wrote in on McClain's blog 'Kubiak's in the hot seat, he should be fired, if he doesn't make the playoffs he's done because of this, etc.'... that's just ridiculous.

Lose some days of practice (which are valuable for the young guys), get fined, let's move on. If this happens again, we'll see a much more severe penalty.
 
To me here's what happened .
1. Gibbs comes in .
2. Gibbs likes overachievers , guys who are willing to do anything to get the job done .
3. The Texans OL is exposed to a tempo it's not used to .
4. Some guys fall out of favor , probably after the first hour .
The assumption here is that this behavior is something new, or specific to this coaching staff. We don't know that these drills haven't occurred during the Capers era. We don't know how many other NFL teams employ the same drills, because we don't have video tape. There's a lot we don't know.

The Niners lost a 5th round pick for contacting Lance Brigg's agent prior to the free agency period. It's widely assumed that this type of tampering is prevalent throughout the league. But, the Commish felt he had enough evidence on the Niners to make them an example. That's what I see happening to the Texans. I don't believe they are the only team violating the no-contact rule. Just that they're the ones caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

I don't want to come across as a homer. The Texans deserve to be punished. Just that if every team got their just desserts for violating the offseason no-contact rule, there probably wouldn't be a 4th round in the upcoming draft.
 
The fact that it goes on at every NFL team doesn't make it right, nor should it excuse it. If there's a rule against it, either get rid of the rule or abide by it.

I also agree that Stevenson doesn't come out looking good in this situation, but that doesn't exonerate the Texans. They (and every other team) take a chance by doing this stuff, and if they get busted, they have to face the consequences.

To be clear, I think all teams are just as guilty of poor treatment of fair to middling players, not just the Texans. The Texans are just topical right now, and it seems many people think the team has done nothing wrong. I obviously disagree, and am discussing it as it pertains to the Texans.

Apparently I am not being clear. Yes the team violated a rule and that is wrong. What I don't like is fans jumping on the Texans like this displays some particular weakness or failure of the Texans. This is a league wide practice and says nothing in particular about the Texans other than they didn't take the highest road. It doesn't indicate anything special or unique about McNair, Kubiak, etc.

Anyone who has been paying attention has known this has been going on for years. I don't recall a single fan being outraged about it before now.
 
The assumption here is that this behavior is something new, or specific to this coaching staff. We don't know that these drills haven't occurred during the Capers era. We don't know how many other NFL teams employ the same drills, because we don't have video tape. There's a lot we don't know.

It happened here in the Capers era too. I specifically asked a player about it when the Jets or whoever got busted a few years back.

I expect it to happen in OTAs around the country, including here, in 2009.
 
The assumption here is that this behavior is something new, or specific to this coaching staff. We don't know that these drills haven't occurred during the Capers era. We don't know how many other NFL teams employ the same drills, because we don't have video tape. There's a lot we don't know.

The Niners lost a 5th round pick for contacting Lance Brigg's agent prior to the free agency period. It's widely assumed that this type of tampering is prevalent throughout the league. But, the Commish felt he had enough evidence on the Niners to make them an example. That's what I see happening to the Texans. I don't believe they are the only team violating the no-contact rule. Just that they're the ones caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

I don't want to come across as a homer. The Texans deserve to be punished. Just that if every team got their just desserts for violating the offseason no-contact rule, there probably wouldn't be a 4th round in the upcoming draft.

Ummm ... remember how we used to block ? :whip:
 
Apparently I am not being clear. Yes the team violated a rule and that is wrong. What I don't like is fans jumping on the Texans like this displays some particular weakness or failure of the Texans. This is a league wide practice and says nothing in particular about the Texans other than they didn't take the highest road. It doesn't indicate anything special or unique about McNair, Kubiak, etc.

Anyone who has been paying attention has known this has been going on for years. I don't recall a single fan being outraged about it before now.

No, I got ya, and I actually agree with you in all ways except the minimization of the deed by the Texans. As for the fans not being outraged, well, I can't speak for anyone else, but as for me - I care that the Texans made a bad decision and now have to pay for it. I care that it was the Texans, and not another team. As far as the ethics of the whole situation, I personally think the Texans should lose the case, to whatever degree is reasonable. But all I really care about personally is how it affects the development of the team and the product that they put out on the field. That's why I'm annoyed by the whole thing.

But then again, I haven't really bashed the team. They made a bad decision, and now they'll have to pay for it, which may affect the product I pay for.
 
Apparently I am not being clear. Yes the team violated a rule and that is wrong. What I don't like is fans jumping on the Texans like this displays some particular weakness or failure of the Texans. This is a league wide practice and says nothing in particular about the Texans other than they didn't take the highest road. It doesn't indicate anything special or unique about McNair, Kubiak, etc.

Anyone who has been paying attention has known this has been going on for years. I don't recall a single fan being outraged about it before now.

I think people are also forgetting that this guy went through the legitimate means of complaints and was rejected.

Plenty of other teams engage in this behavior, and if a player complains, the league takes away draft picks.
Marinelli, Wisenhunt, and Gruden if I remember correctly all ended up with complaints and loss of practice time.

Stevenson complained, but the league didn't do anything. They denied him.

A previous injury grievance was denied by the NFL Management Council.

It wasn't until he became sneaky and dishonest and went to the media that people started to care.

Even some of the people who were originally involved in helping him are mad about the course he took, because they know he went about it in a shady way
 
From Fred Weary:

Former Texans guard Fred Weary is not happy to be involved in the Texans practice story.

"I feel like Dan Stevenson did me a disservice," Weary said, according to Houston TV station Fox 26. "At the time I signed it, I didn't think he would go to this extreme. I thought it would be used internally through the team.


"In the Texans' defense they did tell us what was going on. They did give us parameters, like going half-speed during the drills. But when guys are trying to make the team, those parameters go out the window."
 
I think people are also forgetting that this guy went through the legitimate means of complaints and was rejected.

Plenty of other teams engage in this behavior, and if a player complains, the league takes away draft picks.
Marinelli, Wisenhunt, and Gruden if I remember correctly all ended up with complaints and loss of practice time.

Stevenson complained, but the league didn't do anything. They denied him.



It wasn't until he became sneaky and dishonest and went to the media that people started to care.

Even some of the people who were originally involved in helping him are mad about the course he took, because they know he went about it in a shady way

So if you were Stevenson and had suffered a career-ending injury due to violation of a rule that was put in place to protect you, what would you do?
 
To me , this is like Biggio getting a DUI early in his career . Doesn't make him a bad guy . Is he the only ballplayer doing it ... nope . Does it make it right ... nope . Is there worse things ... yep . Did this event tarnish his image ... a tad .

To me here's what happened .

1. Gibbs comes in .
2. Gibbs likes overachievers , guys who are willing to do anything to get the job done .
3. The Texans OL is exposed to a tempo it's not used to .
4. Some guys fall out of favor , probably after the first hour .

Yep

I would give up a 4th rd. pick every year as long as our OL continues to improve as much as it did this year. I find it curious that the NFLPA, Weary, & Okobi didn't back up Stevensons claims.

The only reason Stevenson was kept on IR was to pay him off for the injury he suffered @ the OTA's He made $200,000, He wants to be paid for the 2nd year of the contract which is another $310,000. Mr. McNair being the bottom line guy that he is balked @ paying this for a marginal guy who wouldn't have made the active roster anyways.

Apparently the teams image is worth $310,000 to Uncle BOB.
 
All of this adds up to the same answer.

Did the Texans do something wrong? Yes, most probably

However:
1. The complaint was made to the legitimate NFL governing sources, and Stevenson's complaint was denied. Other teams lost practice time last year, so the fact that Stevenson's claims as denied tells me something.

2. Fred Weary, who originally signed the affidavit, is now upset with Stevenson. He even told ESPN that the Texans specifically said not to go full speed. The fact that the players decided to go full speed is not the Texans fault IMO

3. It wasn't until Stevenson lied to the Texans and his fellow teammates, snuck into the meeting and secretely video taped a confidential practice tape, and then went public to the media that people started to care.

This is all so sensationalistic, and thats the only reason anyone cares about this. The NFL already made their decision to deny Stevenson. So now he's trying to embarass the Texans in hopes that they settle with him to keep their image clean.

The guy just seems to be dishonest. If the legitimate path comes back denied, you try again. You don't take this to ESPN in hopes of tarnishing someones image just to get paid
 
So if you were Stevenson and had suffered a career-ending injury due to violation of a rule that was put in place to protect you, what would you do?

#1) He was injured because he was going full speed during a practice in which he was instructed to go half speed. That was his choice. Someone already described a blocking drill involving Antwaan Peek (who always went full speed) against OL that did not go full speed. Peek is gone. The OL he was up against is not. You don't have to go full speed to make an impression every time.

#2) If I were injured in a drill that was strictly forbidden, I would have taken the exact same steps as he did the first time. Obtain affidavits from the players, get my NFL union reps to make the complaints, and file with a grievance with the NFL.

If my grievance was denied (like Stevenson's was), and I still felt like I was right, I would of course try again. The guy made $200,000+ last year to sit on the bench and rehab his shoulder. Its not like he's fighting for every dollar to feed his family.


He isn't really interested in seeing the rules changed, he's interested in getting paid. How many players do you know that really had career ending injuries from shoulder separation, anyway? It was so minor it wasn't even detected by the first doctor.

The guy is just making a mountain out of a molehill in the public eye because he hopes the Texans will cave and settle with him.

The fact that the NFL, Weary, Okobi (or whatever his name is) won't back him up says a lot to me


Clearly the Texans violated the letter of the law by having any contact during OTAs.
But it really bothers me that no one cared about this until someone came out whining to ESPN and using secret video. Obviously I don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but it just screams of someone trying to get money for nothing
 
All of this adds up to the same answer.

Did the Texans do something wrong? Yes, most probably

However:
1. The complaint was made to the legitimate NFL governing sources, and Stevenson's complaint was denied. Other teams lost practice time last year, so the fact that Stevenson's claims as denied tells me something.

2. Fred Weary, who originally signed the affidavit, is now upset with Stevenson. He even told ESPN that the Texans specifically said not to go full speed. The fact that the players decided to go full speed is not the Texans fault IMO

3. It wasn't until Stevenson lied to the Texans and his fellow teammates, snuck into the meeting and secretely video taped a confidential practice tape, and then went public to the media that people started to care.

This is all so sensationalistic, and thats the only reason anyone cares about this. The NFL already made their decision to deny Stevenson. So now he's trying to embarass the Texans in hopes that they settle with him to keep their image clean.

The guy just seems to be dishonest. If the legitimate path comes back denied, you try again. You don't take this to ESPN in hopes of tarnishing someones image just to get paid



Did you ever watch 60 minutes? I'm not going to disparage this guys character based on what I've heard. If he feels he's been mistreated, I don't see how it's wrong for him to tell and show that which is true to a media outlet. If he is dealing truthfully then any embarrassment the team suffers is a result of its own actions. If it's a league-wide issue, then the league needs to deal with this.

Of course, if Stevenson is being dishonest about how and when the injury happened and other facts, then I clearly have a problem with what he's doing.
 
I think people are also forgetting that this guy went through the legitimate means of complaints and was rejected.
That was before there was video evidence. And sworn statements. The playing field has changed, now.

If the NFL really wants to crackdown on this practice, they would request the tapes of OTA's and mini camps from all 32 NFL teams for review. If these teams knew their practices would be reviewed, and subject to punishment, these violations would end in a heartbeat.
 
That was before there was video evidence. And sworn statements. The playing field has changed, now.

If the NFL really wants to crackdown on this practice, they would request the tapes of OTA's and mini camps from all 32 NFL teams for review. If these teams knew their practices would be reviewed, and subject to punishment, these violations would end in a heartbeat.

I understood that the affidavits were specifically requested for use with the legitimate complaint. Thats why Weary is so upset that his testimony is now being used by ESPN. He told ESPN that he never intended for Stevenson to use his signature in this fashion

Fred Weary said:
Former Texans guard Fred Weary is not happy to be involved in the Texans practice story.

"I feel like Dan Stevenson did me a disservice," Weary said, according to Houston TV station Fox 26. At the time I signed it, I didn't think he would go to this extreme.

And Weary's statement also supports the Texans claim that these were not supposed to be full speed contact drills:

Fred Weary said:
"In the Texans' defense they did tell us what was going on. They did give us parameters, like going half-speed during the drills.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3885900
 
All of this adds up to the same answer.

Did the Texans do something wrong? Yes, most probably

However:
1. The complaint was made to the legitimate NFL governing sources, and Stevenson's complaint was denied. Other teams lost practice time last year, so the fact that Stevenson's claims as denied tells me something. That the NFL/McNair wanted these claims to disappear? That the NFL investigation actually considered a statement rom the Texans that "We never did this" as evidence? That the NFL doesn't want any more of these claims for the NFLPA to be able to use (via arbitration) vs. the league when the contract renews again?

2. Fred Weary, who originally signed the affidavit, is now upset with Stevenson. He even told ESPN that the Texans specifically said not to go full speed. The fact that the players decided to go full speed is not the Texans fault IMO In law there's a line of argument regarding evidence called "fruit of the poisonous tree". The (A) in this multi-step sequence is the Texans doing something they were prohibited from doing. Like you speeding down the freeway, it doesn't matter what others are doing if it's still against the rules. These are competitive guys trying to make an NFL squad - unless coaches are screaming in their face to SLOW DOWN, they're going to go as fast as they think is necessary to "beat" their man.

3. It wasn't until Stevenson lied to the Texans and his fellow teammates, snuck into the meeting and secretely video taped a confidential practice tape, and then went public to the media that people started to care. Be intellectually honest here. Did he have a choice? He went the legitimate route and got cheated by the so-called investigation. Why didn't the NFL investigation ever see tape of this practice?

This is all so sensationalistic, and thats the only reason anyone cares about this. The NFL already made their decision to deny Stevenson. So now he's trying to embarass the Texans in hopes that they settle with him to keep their image clean. Tried (past tense) to make a deal with the Texans, as that failed, he took the only real route available...go to the press.

The guy just seems to be dishonest. If the legitimate path comes back denied, you try again. You don't take this to ESPN in hopes of tarnishing someones image just to get paid. I disagree - he did what he was supposed to do (by the lettter) and got denied. I'm gathering that the NFL "review" is his LAST recourse as far as the NFL is concerned.
Going with your assumption that the Texans probably DID do something wrong - see my replies in BOLD.
 
Going with your assumption that the Texans probably DID do something wrong - see my replies in BOLD.

You are assuming that he got "cheated" when he went through legitimate means.

I don't buy it.

If the NFL players union and teams were all in cahoots to try and sweep this stuff under the rug all the time, why did multiple teams lose practice time for violating the exact same rule?

Im just not willing to buy into this being some mass conspiracy of everyone vs. the players. It just doesn't make sense
 
To me, the most important statement was up near the beginning of the stuff that GP transcribed.

The NFL denied his claim because the drills were not mandatory. Being "optional" drills, they are no longer illegal. To me, Stevenson is trying to get around the real crux of the issue. If he wants the NFL to come down on the Texans, he has to prove somehow that the drills were NOT optional. And they might have been mandatory but proving that they were mandatory is going to be difficult for him.

I'm really going to be surprised if anything comes from this. It just seems like the media is trying to make a story out of nothing. People are concentrating on the worst case, the losing of the draft picks, but unless this report starts a storm of controversy where guys from teams across the NFL come forward and complain about this practice, this is not going to get worst-case treatment. I expect the worst that happens from this is that Kubiak gets fined and I doubt that even happens.
 
To me, the most important statement was up near the beginning of the stuff that GP transcribed.

The NFL denied his claim because the drills were not mandatory. Being "optional" drills, they are no longer illegal. To me, Stevenson is trying to get around the real crux of the issue. If he wants the NFL to come down on the Texans, he has to prove somehow that the drills were NOT optional. And they might have been mandatory but proving that they were mandatory is going to be difficult for him.

I'm really going to be surprised if anything comes from this. It just seems like the media is trying to make a story out of nothing. People are concentrating on the worst case, the losing of the draft picks, but unless this report starts a storm of controversy where guys from teams across the NFL come forward and complain about this practice, this is not going to get worst-case treatment. I expect the worst that happens from this is that Kubiak gets fined and I doubt that even happens.

Maybe this is what Kubiak means when he says ... player X is learning what it means to be a pro . He comes out , works hard , and practices like a pro .
 
The NFL denied his claim because the drills were not mandatory. Being "optional" drills, they are no longer illegal.

Calling them optional is the way a team can cover it's collective butt. They can show the league their documented practice plan where it clearly states the drills aren't mandatory. If I was writing it up, I'd throw in a fine system for players that go "too hard". Then once my paperwork is in order, I'd continue doing what I want to do. Now if anything happens, it is the player's fault.

The players know that skipping such "optional" drills is a huge black mark against them, even though team documentation is squeeky clean. They really aren't optional if you are a marginal player trying to make a roster.

As I've said, most teams do this, and most players suck it up and participate because they understand it is the way of the league. I think believing the players can skip these optional drills with no repercussions is ignoring the reality of the situation.
 
Calling them optional is the way a team can cover it's collective butt. They can show the league their documented practice plan where it clearly states the drills aren't mandatory. If I was writing it up, I'd throw in a fine system for players that go "too hard". Then once my paperwork is in order, I'd continue doing what I want to do. Now if anything happens, it is the player's fault.

The players know that skipping such "optional" drills is a huge black mark against them, even though team documentation is squeeky clean. They really aren't optional if you are a marginal player trying to make a roster.

As I've said, most teams do this, and most players suck it up and participate because they understand it is the way of the league. I think believing the players can skip these optional drills with no repercussions is ignoring the reality of the situation.

But that's irrelevant to the real point.

The real point, at least to me, is whether the Texans are going to be punished for this. And if Stevenson goes around concentrating on the drills and not concentrating on why the NFL rejected his claim, he's just spinning his wheels. He hasn't given the NFL any reason to change their minds.

People are saying that the Texans broke the rules. But... did they? As you say, if they have squeaky clean paperwork and they're able to show that the drills fell within the limits of the CBA, then they technically didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't face any punishment.

Now, do I personally think that a player can skip one of these optional drills without retribution? No, I don't. But as long as the Texans have put in the right paperwork and given players the option to not do the drill (even though they'd be ridiculed and almost assuredly cut from the team at the first opportunity), then this is not illegal. The NFL is not going to be taking away draft choices or fining anyone.

I believe that the problem that other teams have had with these sorts of drills is that they've made a mistake and portrayed them as mandatory. Because, in the coaches minds, they really are mandatory and they forget to portray them as optional.
 
Calling them optional is the way a team can cover it's collective butt. They can show the league their documented practice plan where it clearly states the drills aren't mandatory. If I was writing it up, I'd throw in a fine system for players that go "too hard". Then once my paperwork is in order, I'd continue doing what I want to do. Now if anything happens, it is the player's fault.

The players know that skipping such "optional" drills is a huge black mark against them, even though team documentation is squeeky clean. They really aren't optional if you are a marginal player trying to make a roster.

As I've said, most teams do this, and most players suck it up and participate because they understand it is the way of the league. I think believing the players can skip these optional drills with no repercussions is ignoring the reality of the situation.

As a practical reality you are of course right the drills aren't really optional. That said, the CBA and NFL allow "optional" drills so teams are going to use them. There needs to be an across the board rule against optional drills if they want it stopped.
 
But that's irrelevant to the real point.

No - I now see we're just talking about two different points. I'm talking about the leaguewide flagrant violation of the CB agreement, and my point is relevant.

You are talking about the specific Texans/Stevenson instantiation, and I didn't intend to be commenting on that.
 
As a practical reality you are of course right the drills aren't really optional. That said, the CBA and NFL allow "optional" drills so teams are going to use them. There needs to be an across the board rule against optional drills if they want it stopped.

Yep. I don't know how the NFLPA turned out this way, but they seem very weak compared to their baseball and basketball counterparts.
 
No - I now see we're just talking about two different points. I'm talking about the leaguewide flagrant violation of the CB agreement, and my point is relevant.

My post wasn't in response to yours. It was in response to GP's original transcriptions.

The issue about whether these drills should be allowed or not is a totally different issue to me.

When the players union made this agreement and created allowance for these "optional" drills, they couldn't have been so naive as to expect them to really be optional. If they did, then it's very short-sighted on their part. The fact that this "rule" is broken all the time and by most if not all teams means that one of two things needs to happen: they get rid of the drills entirely regardless of whether they're called optional or not or they allow them.
 
I did not read all 5 pages of this thread but I did just watch the show.

I think, like was said over and over, that this is common among all of the teams. Doesn't make it okay but if they want it stopped...they need to crack down on all.

But..if what Stevenson said about Rick Smith...that he yelled at him and questioned his integrity, ect....that should be his job. Thats not who I want running the team I cheer for. I want people who do whats right everytime and lets the chips fall where they may.

Should have just paid the guy what he was owed. Mo' Dead $$$$.
 
It would be naive to think that a team, our team specifically, is above the shenanigans that you'd think you'd find on a "bad" team.

I have to admit that I was (and still am, to a degree) very angered that the Texans management dealt with this issue the way they did...then, they try to pay for Black's surgery while also claiming it was not in any way evidence of the teams' liability. Intellectually speaking, the Texans did a wrong thing and then they went and compounded the wrong thing via several missteps: Paying for a surgery they said they weren't going to pay for, claiming it was not evidence of liability, Rick Smith yelling at Stevenson and questioning his integrity, Kubiak shrugging off attempts by Brown and Breuner to confront him on the issue. The list goes on, probably a lot more than we'd like to know.

Which leads me to this: There's no telling how much complete GARBAGE is happening in the organization that we don't know about. People say you wouldn't eat hot dog weenies if you saw how they were made. And that goes for the inner-workings of huge, multi-million dollar companies.

While I lost some respect for Kubiak and Rick Smith, I have to be a big boy and realize that there is a lot of TRASH like this going on within the Texans every day, as well as with the Dolphins, the Jets, the Lakers, the Phillies, and any other sports organization at any other level for that matter.

We'd like to think that our team is the team of the "good guys." That our top guys take care of our players like Dick Winters took care of his Band of Brothers in WWII and beyond. But that's not the case. It's a meat grinder out there. Period.

So, for me, I had to spend the day rolling those things around in my head. I won't watch the team the same, knowing that the "good guys" are more likely to be "average, problematic guys". I wish I had never seen this crap, but now I am dealing with it. I'll find a way to compartmentalize it away into that section of my brain where I stash things that are justified and rationalized.

The things that bothers me the most is this: We won't even LOOK at a guy like Cedric Benson because, gosh darn it, we're a team of character and we don't need that junk on our team. But we'll engage in a prohibited drill (Article 36, section 4) that outlaws LIVE BLOCKING and gets three guys hurt. There's a reason this drill was run when the public wasn't there, and there's a reason the trainer's report was doctored up, and there's a reason the Texans finally paid up for Black's surgery. In the process, guys who stand up for themselves are being demonized for doing the right thing. But we have standards. We won't take on a classless player, even if he would fill a much-needed spot. We're the good guys.

It's entirely possible that a guy like Cedric Benson would NOT help us, that he'd be a bust or a locker room cancer, etc. I "get" that. What I am referring to is Uncle Bob's relentless pursuit of marketing this team as a first-class organization that "takes care" of those who are employed there. In fact, it hurts worse because our team does so much to put off that image of goodness and wholesomeness, compared to other teams. In essence: The kid who got straight A's in school, and kinda' smirked at the problematic kids the whole time, just got caught spray-painting graffiti in the bathroom two days before graduation.

A little bit of the bloom has come off THAT rose, whether we like it or not.

This story, on OTL, and on the ESPN website and ticker across the TV screen all week long, is very very bad P.R. for the Texans, especially the way Bob has tried to market this team to the world.

However...you offer a player a lot of money to come here, and his agent is going to convince the player that this sort of thing happened on all 32 teams, and that the Texans are far from the worst team in the league to play for. And that, is that. Swept up, mopped up, polished up, folded up, tucked neatly away in an area of the brain reserved for the compartmentalization of things to be justified and rationalized.

:trophy:
 
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three sides to every story, my side, your side, and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

Was what happened wrong? YES, I echo what Weary said, players and coaches start out saying "go half speed" and the players do that, but a little thing like competitiveness kicks in and drills go by and by and then they go a little more than half speed, and pick up the pace, Coaches are concentrating on the drills and they don't realize after 15 minutes that the intensity has picked up, coaches are in the groove of watching and running drills, players are concentrating on the drills and moving right along.. and EVERYONE gets lost in the moment. Before you know it everyone is going full speed and the brakes haven't put on (YES that is the coaches responsibility and they failed to stop it).

I feelings are that , if no one got hurt, nothing would have ever been said.

However, if what was true about the incident being brought up to Kubiak and he really did say "I will run it the way I want to" and it is full speed again on the next day....then Kubiak needs to be fined and the Texans need to lose a draft pick.

IF all 32 teams are doing this, then NFLPA and the NFL needs to put an end to half assed drills and let the players run sprints (or whatever ),study playbooks and work on technique with tackling dummies or something so no one gets hurt like this again.
 
GP said:
A little bit of the bloom has come off THAT rose, whether we like it or not.

I can't help but laugh a little at some of the people I see piling on the Texans for this. I guess I shouldn't be surprsied, as most seem to be the same ones who regularly take whatever opportunity is presented to complain about the team. Its just the attitude that suddenly this is the penultimate reason.

Some teams hire guys with multiple criminal convictions or off the field problems.
There are at least two teams I can think of currently starting guys suspected of murder.

We've got a team that allegedly let a few blocking drills get a little too physical.
And somehow those are now equated?


Believe what you will and pretend to be shocked by this all you want. But Im not about to believe this going to be "very, very bad PR" for the Texans.

Personally I'm going to wait until I hear the Texans side of the story. Its funny how quickly everyone just jumps on the Stevenson bandwagon.
 
All I know is we better make the playoffs/have a winning season this year or alot of jobs are going to get cut, starting with Kubiak.
 
three sides to every story, my side, your side, and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

Was what happened wrong? YES, I echo what Weary said, players and coaches start out saying "go half speed" and the players do that, but a little thing like competitiveness kicks in and drills go by and by and then they go a little more than half speed, and pick up the pace, Coaches are concentrating on the drills and they don't realize after 15 minutes that the intensity has picked up, coaches are in the groove of watching and running drills, players are concentrating on the drills and moving right along.. and EVERYONE gets lost in the moment. Before you know it everyone is going full speed and the brakes haven't put on (YES that is the coaches responsibility and they failed to stop it).

I feelings are that , if no one got hurt, nothing would have ever been said.

However, if what was true about the incident being brought up to Kubiak and he really did say "I will run it the way I want to" and it is full speed again on the next day....then Kubiak needs to be fined and the Texans need to lose a draft pick.

IF all 32 teams are doing this, then NFLPA and the NFL needs to put an end to half assed drills and let the players run sprints (or whatever ),study playbooks and work on technique with tackling dummies or something so no one gets hurt like this again.

Do you think the coaches are shocked that the "half-speed" idea eventually turns into a "full-speed" event over the course of the drill? No. They know darn well that's what is going to happen.

Quarter speed, half speed, full speed, it doesn't matter what "speed" it is being run at. The drill isn't supposed to be run AT ALL. Why is that getting lost here? Why are we making it a deal of the players being held responsible for how hard they go on the drill? They're not even supposed to be doing it AT ALL.

The NFL needs to do something. It would be expensive to assign a person (32 people, in total) to each team to monitor minicamp drills and document what's being done. On the flip side, they just accepted the Texans' LIE that there was nothing improper going on at the minicamp.

Someone said that this makes the NFLPA look very sloppy in comparison to MLB and NBA player unions. I agree. Why didn't Kris Brown and Mark Breuner contact the NFLPA or the league itself after Kubiak scoffed at the confrontation over the drills? Has anyone here thought about that? There's some accountability issues with Brown/Breuner. Which, as infantrycak said, "might" show that Brown & Breuner had no real interest in pushing the point with anybody. They just passed the message and walked away.

Maybe the NFL should do away with the fourth round, but all that would do is make the 7th round a 6th round (in reality). It seems all the teams are doing it. Maybe they won't be this year. But I would bet a few try to get away with it. Some will think they can hide it. Stevenson has open the floodgates for guys, in the future, to do the same thing. So it's possible that others will bust a team on the same premise. I wonder which team(s) will be stupid enough to continue the live blocking drills during minicamp?
 
I can't help but laugh a little at some of the people I see piling on the Texans for this. I guess I shouldn't be surprsied, as most seem to be the same ones who regularly take whatever opportunity is presented to complain about the team. Its just the attitude that suddenly this is the penultimate reason.

Some teams hire guys with multiple criminal convictions or off the field problems.
There are at least two teams I can think of currently starting guys suspected of murder.

We've got a team that allegedly let a few blocking drills get a little too physical.
And somehow those are now equated?


Believe what you will and pretend to be shocked by this all you want. But Im not about to believe this going to be "very, very bad PR" for the Texans.

Personally I'm going to wait until I hear the Texans side of the story. Its funny how quickly everyone just jumps on the Stevenson bandwagon.

I'm not the one who brags on the Texans every chance I get, talking about how fine our team is, the quality of people that we have on the roster, the way we want people to feel like they are part of a top-rate team when they step through the doors, blah-blah-blah.

Bob McNair is doing that. Not me.

He's selling this team as one that's not like the rest. Not me.

This just makes me wonder: (A) Bob doesn't know what in the heck is going on behind the scenes and he just gets some daily report or he walks around and shakes hands and is back in his office within 20 minutes, or (B) He knows darn well what's going on.

Either scenario is scary.

Anyone else here get the feeling that Bob is not very involved as an owner? That he tends to be too far removed from the scene? That he's trusting to a fault? I don't want a Jerry Jones-type, don't get me wrong, but this whole deal doesn't jive with what Bob wants people to think about the Texans.

This isn't the worst thing in the world that could happen to us, gtexan02, which is why I said "the bloom has come off the rose a little bit." It's not an atomic bomb or anything. It's just a little rip in the fabric of what Bob has been weaving since the team was built.

Bottom line: The live blocking, when prohibited, needs to never happen again. Nobody can argue with that. It's in the rules, it's an agreement, and contracts work both ways.
 
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