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Jamies Winston Qb Florida State

Lucky said:
I guess Winston was a lot smarter in 2013, when he had 10 INTS.
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He also had Kelvin Benjamin. He threw a lot of passes his freshman year that would have been picked if his target wasn't a 6-5, 240 first round pick.

I honestly think this year was a better representation of his talent than last year. With a year of film on him defensive coaches were able to scope out his tendencies and force him to go through his progressions instead of locking onto his top targets. Last year you couldn't double cover Rashad Greene because FSU still had Benjamin, Kenny Shaw, and Nick O'Leary.

Teams were able to double Greene this year and he forced a lot of passes that got picked because he couldn't bail himself out by throwing jump balls to Benjamin anymore and struggled to progress through his reads and find the open man.

He also hits a ton of wide open guys for big plays because of the FSU scheme. I have no idea why Mariota gets negged for this while he doesn't.
 
WolverineFan said:
He also had Kelvin Benjamin. He threw a lot of passes his freshman year that would have been picked if his target wasn't a 6-5, 240 first round pick.

I honestly think this year was a better representation of his talent than last year. With a year of film on him defensive coaches were able to scope out his tendencies and force him to go through his progressions instead of locking onto his top targets. Last year you couldn't double cover Rashad Greene because FSU still had Benjamin, Kenny Shaw, and Nick O'Leary.

Teams were able to double Greene this year and he forced a lot of passes that got picked because he couldn't bail himself out by throwing jump balls to Benjamin anymore and struggled to progress through his reads and find the open man.

He also hits a ton of wide open guys for big plays because of the FSU scheme. I have no idea why Mariota gets negged for this while he doesn't.
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You also have to factor in that one year the team was killing people in the first half and the next year the team was getting killed in the first half. One year he isn't in a lot of situations where he needs to press, the next he is always in that position.

But let's be real, Winston was threading the needle far more than Mariota in their careers.
 
WolverineFan said:
He also hits a ton of wide open guys for big plays because of the FSU scheme. I have no idea why Mariota gets negged for this while he doesn't.
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Because the "FSU scheme" is far more pro-oriented than Oregon.

FSU uses much less motion and hurry-up to divert the defense and much more emphasis on reading coverage, making decisions at the line, and anticipating openings with patterns and throws.

This shouldn't imply that Winston is an open and shut case to be a better pro than Mariota, but if the evaluation is on who has been asked to do more things that will translate to the next level, clearly Winston has.
 
WolverineFan said:
He also had Kelvin Benjamin. He threw a lot of passes his freshman year that would have been picked if his target wasn't a 6-5, 240 first round pick.

I honestly think this year was a better representation of his talent than last year. With a year of film on him defensive coaches were able to scope out his tendencies and force him to go through his progressions instead of locking onto his top targets. Last year you couldn't double cover Rashad Greene because FSU still had Benjamin, Kenny Shaw, and Nick O'Leary.

Teams were able to double Greene this year and he forced a lot of passes that got picked because he couldn't bail himself out by throwing jump balls to Benjamin anymore and struggled to progress through his reads and find the open man.

He also hits a ton of wide open guys for big plays because of the FSU scheme. I have no idea why Mariota gets negged for this while he doesn't.
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and to all this I will add that IMO Winston was surrounded with very good talent that made him look much better than he actually is.
 
Mollywhopper said:
Because the "FSU scheme" is far more pro-oriented than Oregon.

FSU uses much less motion and hurry-up to divert the defense and much more emphasis on reading coverage, making decisions at the line, and anticipating openings with patterns and throws.
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While I agree that FS doesn't use the hurry up or as much motion, I disagree with the rest of your post.
 
mussop said:
While I agree that FS doesn't use the hurry up or as much motion, I disagree with the rest of your post.
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Feel free. But all the misdirection that you see from Oregon is what is designed into their scheme to cause mismatches. It's that type of scheme (and athletic skillplayers) that causes all the wide open throws we see form Mariota. He should get credit for knowing the system himself, having the athleticism to make get to the launch points, and his own arm talent to make the throws no matter how wide open. But a vast majority of what makes those plays tick is done as the huddle breaks, not at the line.

The mismatches FSU looks to create though can be seen series after series by Winston making checks at the line. It's evident in watching their play. Jimbo Fisher has looked heavily for Jameis to direct the offense down to the last second of the play clock often. When the mismatches aren't there you can also see that the FSU offense relies heavily on Winston taking till the last second in the pocket to let routes open up downfield that count on him to make next level throws, driving the ball in tighter windows. Those plays have resulted in more errors this year, but the question is about what we can see asked of him that is more pro-oriented.

Again, disagreement makes message boards go round so knock yourself out, but I'm speaking from watching just about every snap of Winston's career. And again, I'm not speaking on a full evaluation of who's going to be the better pro, but of the two who's been tasked with more NFL QB duties, from the huddle breaking to the line to releasing the football. I'm confident that it's Winston.
 
Really Winston will be like a Manziel. Not a very good QB in this kind of system. But also a troublemaker off it along the way.
 
Mollywhopper said:
Feel free. But all the misdirection that you see from Oregon is what is designed into their scheme to cause mismatches. It's that type of scheme (and athletic skillplayers) that causes all the wide open throws we see form Mariota. He should get credit for knowing the system himself, having the athleticism to make get to the launch points, and his own arm talent to make the throws no matter how wide open. But a vast majority of what makes those plays tick is done as the huddle breaks, not at the line.

The mismatches FSU looks to create though can be seen series after series by Winston making checks at the line. It's evident in watching their play. Jimbo Fisher has looked heavily for Jameis to direct the offense down to the last second of the play clock often. When the mismatches aren't there you can also see that the FSU offense relies heavily on Winston taking till the last second in the pocket to let routes open up downfield that count on him to make next level throws, driving the ball in tighter windows. Those plays have resulted in more errors this year, but the question is about what we can see asked of him that is more pro-oriented.

Again, disagreement makes message boards go round so knock yourself out, but I'm speaking from watching just about every snap of Winston's career. And again, I'm not speaking on a full evaluation of who's going to be the better pro, but of the two who's been tasked with more NFL QB duties, from the huddle breaking to the line to releasing the football. I'm confident that it's Winston.
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As to the bolded, a good OC does that. Look at Kubiak and how open our receivers got. A good scheme will get them open, question is, can the QB hit them? I haven't watched enough of Mariota to know for sure, but the were certainly bragging about his accuracy in the bowl game against FSU.

Can he hit the open man in stride with pressure in his face? Can he find the target downfield while on the move? That's what I want to know
 
JPPT1974 said:
Really Winston will be like a Manziel. Not a very good QB in this kind of system. But also a troublemaker off it along the way.
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I don't know what will happen, but I'd bet against what you posted.


Oregon's offense is similar to sumlins offense.

Not a lot of complex reads. Lots of plays where there is no read at all.
 
JB said:
As to the bolded, a good OC does that. Look at Kubiak and how open our receivers got. A good scheme will get them open, question is, can the QB hit them? I haven't watched enough of Mariota to know for sure, but the were certainly bragging about his accuracy in the bowl game against FSU.

Can he hit the open man in stride with pressure in his face? Can he find the target downfield while on the move? That's what I want to know
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It's not really about scheming to get guys open. Everyone schemes to get guys open.

It's about how much responsibility you put on the qb.

Some schemes take a lot of responsibility from the qb and gives them very narrow options.

you can look at a lot of oregons plays and tell that mariota hasn't had to make a lot of those executive decisions.

Doesn't mean he's not an nfl qb though. His demeanor and attitude says he'll make the commitment to become that. That's going to help him a long with his physical attributes.

But really this all seems moot. I don't think the Texans will have a shot at either one.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
But really this all seems moot. I don't think the Texans will have a shot at either one.
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That's the somewhat irony here. Seems like it's a contest to slag both Mariota and Winston by some and odds are the NFL is going to disagree to such an extent the Texans never have a chance at either.
 
infantrycak said:
That's the somewhat irony here. Seems like it's a contest to slag both Mariota and Winston by some and odds are the NFL is going to disagree to such an extent the Texans never have a chance at either.
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The pre draft mocks would never have had Manziel get to 32 either.

The mocks get it right < 75% of the time.
 
Hookem Horns said:
Bridgewater went 32, Johnny AA went in the 20's somewhere IIRC. Especially sad if you're a Browns fan.
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Good catch. But the mocks had them all going in the top 10 with many in the top 5. It seems the Pros look past need to some extent and draftniks can't get past the need based draft.

ie First pick

Player Pick (Projection)
Bortles 3 (7)
Manziel 22 (9)
Bridgewater 32 (8)
Garoppolo 62 (85)
Thomas 120 (210)
Savage 135 (40)
Murray 163 (142)
McCarron 164 (134)
Mettenberger 178 (100)
Fales 183 (178)
Wenning 194 (256)
Boyd 213 (232)
Gilbert 214 (300+)
 
B90nyV-IYAAA_cW.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B90nyV-IYAAA_cW.png

Robert Littal &#8207;@BSO
Caption The Photo: Jameis Winston Working Out Shirtless http://bit.ly/1vu0XOI via @thacover2
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Playoffs said:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B90nyV-IYAAA_cW.png

Robert Littal &#8207;@BSO
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...
“The photo of Jameis was taken in early-mid January,” George Whitfield said by phone. “If people are saying he looks out of shape – well, did they notice he had the leash tight around his waist? That may have had something to do with it,” he laughed.

“Jameis is in shape and doing great. Anyone saying he’s out of shape, they can check him out at the Combine this week.”
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Not sure why Whitfield feels the need to go into damage control mode over this. Winston has always been pudgy and a bit out of shape. Has anyone watched him scramble? He gets the job done, but it's not very pretty.

Nobody should care what he looks like with his shirt off. What matters is can he go through progressions in an NFL system, read an NFL defense, and make good decisions with the football.
 
WolverineFan said:
Not sure why Whitfield feels the need to go into damage control mode over this. Winston has always been pudgy and a bit out of shape. Has anyone watched him scramble? He gets the job done, but it's not very pretty.

Nobody should care what he looks like with his shirt off. What matters is can he go through progressions in an NFL system, read an NFL defense, and make good decisions with the football.
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Exactly, or as mollywhopper so succinctly put it...

Mollywhopper said:
[IMGwidthsize=300]http://cdn01.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2008/01/tom-brady-shirtless.jpg[/IMG]
HOF


[IMGwidthsize=200]http://indiana.bilerico.com/2010/01/PeytonManningshirtless.jpg[/IMG]
HOF


[IMGwidthsize=200]http://chicksinthehuddle.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/brady_quinn_shirtless_cellphone-1.jpg[/IMG]
Joke


[IMGwidthsize=200]http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Tim-Tebow-shirtless-rain-jets.jpg[/IMG]
Never had a chance
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Jameis Winston's Shoulder Tested For Arm Weakness

Jameis Winston has undergone testing for weakness in his throwing arm ahead of the NFL combine.

Florida State quarterback Jameis Winston has undergone specific testing to determine why he is showing weakness in his throwing shoulder that was discovered during the NFL combine medical exams, according to team and league sources.

Sources said Winston had electromyography to study a weakness in his shoulder that often can be caused by a nerve problem and can be treated through therapy, if necessary.

No other specifics were provided by the sources. Winston is scheduled to speak to the media Friday afternoon after his planned session Thursday was postponed for medical testing at a nearby hospital, a source said...
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Playoffs said:
Jameis Winston's Shoulder Tested For Arm Weakness
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This does not surprise me at all. What is is not being really emphasized is that Winston has also been a baseball reliever over his entire high school (and earlier) and college football career. With them checking him out with an EMG, which evaluates muscle around the shoulder girdle and the nerves that supply them, I suspect that the physicians feel that there may be a shoulder muscular imbalance, which very commonly leads to rotator cuff, labral tears and related injuries......all common conditions accompanied by throwing weakness in players holding positions requiring repetetive overhead throwing motions. Evaluation for nerve impingements (through nerve conduction tests [NCT] which test the speed at which signals travel through various nerves) including cervical disc problems are bound to be included in seeking explanation for his weakness.

Winston was known for his curve balls and sliders.......both very hard on the shoulder elements. I would strongly suspect that if there is pathology in or around his shoulder, it is caused by a combination of his prolonged, uninterrupted year-round baseball and football activities.............with his pitching likely to be the most contributory culprit.
 
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ObsiWan said:
So is this extra testing on the NFL's "dime"?

...and why didn't someone go the extra mile like this on Clowney?
:foottap:?
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maybe they did and the Texans medical staff said it would be fine. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do think he sustained an injury or two after he got to Reliant...:kitten:


:troll:
 
JB said:
maybe they did and the Texans medical staff said it would be fine. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do think he sustained an injury or two after he got to Reliant...:kitten:


:troll:
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~That's sacrilege. Don't you know it is the duty and obligation of the Texans to KNOW what will happen in the future with there draft picks?~ Due diligence is one thing, but many think they should be clairvoyant.
 
Marshall said:
~That's sacrilege. Don't you know it is the duty and obligation of the Texans to KNOW what will happen in the future with there draft picks?~ Due diligence is one thing, but many think they should be clairvoyant.
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You're right; I could have phrased that question better. I was just wondering aloud if Clowney's knees were more susceptible than the std population to damage and if there was some sort of medical screening (MRI??) that could have been done to show that. Obviously he got hurt during the season so no one could have seen that coming. But if you look at how it happened, it didn't look to be that significant of an impact... at least compared to how Cushing got rolled up on or how Schaub got stepped on.
What do I know, I'm just a fan.
 
ObsiWan said:
You're right; I could have phrased that question better. I was just wondering aloud if Clowney's knees were more susceptible than the std population to damage and if there was some sort of medical screening (MRI??) that could have been done to show that. Obviously he got hurt during the season so no one could have seen that coming. But if you look at how it happened, it didn't look to be that significant of an impact... at least compared to how Cushing got rolled up on or how Schaub got stepped on.
What do I know, I'm just a fan.
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Well two things - one, bone spurs are secondary to some other mechanical problem and two, Doc has consistently taught that once you have one injury you are frequently going to have susceptibility to secondary compensation injuries. There was some particular kind of MRI iirc or scan Doc would have liked to see the report on but we'd be foolish to think we hear about every test they perform so really don't know if it was ever done. At the end of the day, Doc was still in favor of taking him IF he would immediately get the bone spurs taken care of. Instead as Doc laid out in the Clowney thread he went through a series of groin, knee injuries/surgeries and to our knowledge still hasn't had the bone spurs corrected.

I came down on the other side and thought the risk was too great, but I've seen nothing to say the Texans failed to do anything in making their evaluation. But everyone knew there were risks.
 
ObsiWan said:
You're right; I could have phrased that question better. I was just wondering aloud if Clowney's knees were more susceptible than the std population to damage and if there was some sort of medical screening (MRI??) that could have been done to show that. Obviously he got hurt during the season so no one could have seen that coming. But if you look at how it happened, it didn't look to be that significant of an impact... at least compared to how Cushing got rolled up on or how Schaub got stepped on.
What do I know, I'm just a fan.
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infantrycak said:
Well two things - one, bone spurs are secondary to some other mechanical problem and two, Doc has consistently taught that once you have one injury you are frequently going to have susceptibility to secondary compensation injuries. There was some particular kind of MRI iirc or scan Doc would have liked to see the report on but we'd be foolish to think we hear about every test they perform so really don't know if it was ever done. At the end of the day, Doc was still in favor of taking him IF he would immediately get the bone spurs taken care of. Instead as Doc laid out in the Clowney thread he went through a series of groin, knee injuries/surgeries and to our knowledge still hasn't had the bone spurs corrected.

I came down on the other side and thought the risk was too great, but I've seen nothing to say the Texans failed to do anything in making their evaluation. But everyone knew there were risks.
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Good concise review of my thought process in Clowney's situation. One thing I want to emphasize as it now again becomes pertinent in his microfracture "recovery." Steadman, the originator of the procedure has repeatedly written and lectured re. the significance of a patient's natural joint alignment and mechanics in addition to disciplined rehabilitation in recovery from the procedure. In other words, if there are sources of problems with these factors, distribution of forces and stresses to the involved joint and specifically to the microfracture-treated segment(s), there will be greatly accelerated shearing and wearing down of the newly-created "cartilage"...........circumstances inconsistent with the expectation of success.

REPOSTED IN THE CLOWNEY THREAD
 
INDIANAPOLIS — Quarterback Jameis Winston currently is projected to be the first quarterback selected in the 2015 NFL draft, but at least one team has serious concerns about his shoulder. Winston’s shoulder is “bad,” a scout, who is not authorized to speak on the record, told NESN.com. The Florida State product’s shoulder won’t be an issue in the short-term, but it’s viewed as a long-term problem by this team. The injury was categorized as a “real issue.”
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LINK
 
Interesting, although won't factor into draft decision.

Mariota ran an excellent 40-yard dash, clocking in at 4.52 seconds. That was not only the fastest of any quarterback this year, but the fastest of any quarterback since Robert Griffin III ran a 4.41-second 40 in 2012.

Winston was significantly slower, finishing his 40 in 4.97 seconds. Winston has never been known as a runner, so he wasn’t expected to put up a fast time, but that’s even a little slower than expected. (Winston was barely faster than the fastest offensive lineman, Ali Marpet, a 307-pounder who ran a 4.98-second 40 yesterday.)

The 40 time is such a tiny part of a quarterback’s evaluation that it’s highly unlikely that these times will have any real impact on the Buccaneers’ decision with the first overall pick. But to the extent that Mariota and Winston are competing, Mariota won this round.
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Albert Breer &#8207;@AlbertBreer
Condition Winston has in his shoulder is common, shows up in baseball players who've pitched for more than a decade. Basic wear-and-tear.

On Jameis Winston's shoulder: The Cowboys doctor put in the request for the electromyography. Docs in Indy told teams after, "not an issue."
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