I think what he was saying is all of the ol range between avg to awful. Minus Fulton and that it was foolish to go into this season depending on Davenport to become an avg lt.
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How long will the growing pains phase last?
- Thread starter Mangler
- Start date
I think what he was saying is all of the ol range between avg to awful. Minus Fulton and that it was foolish to go into this season depending on Davenport to become an avg lt.
Demoted
Notice that Kubiak here when all of these guys were added and nothing was added to replace some of these guys after he left? Was Ricky calling the shots? I will give Ricky credit in that he added Fuller gave them the best WR combo they've ever had. He also added McKinney and Reader.
How we should really start looking at things are how does Ricky/BOB's drafts compare to Gaine/BOB's drafts and the types of players drafted. Same goes with FA, Ricky's decision to not participate in FA 2 offseasons ago cost him his job. (Rightfully so.)
I'm really looking forward to seeing what Gaine can do with a full compliment of draft picks and 26.1 mil in cap space. After looking over the FA list I would look at guys like Tevin Coleman (My 1st FA call) and Claiborne in FA and draft the OL with atleast the 1st and two 2nds, I may even trade up twice to get two 1st rd picks, 1 top 10 type and 1 lower 1st rder to do everything I could to help protect Watson. This can be done.
Scooter
Funky
Fringe starters and early picks ... Myers, Smith, Brown, Brooks
Fringe starters and early picks ... Allen, Clark, XSF, Martin and a metric ton of other FA's.
Same GM ... coach A got results, coach B didn't.
What you're not taking into account is Kubiak/Gibbs were on the same page as Smith who grew up learning Gibbs system. Smith didn't have a clue about what type of OL it took to run the E-P system . That's why B didn't work. If Gaine fails to find talent to fix the OL I will agree with it's all on BOB and particularly Devlin who I want gone tomorrow since I haven't seen 1 OL improve since he took over the OL. Infact some have gotten worse under Devlin.
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Ranger Tom
All Pro
I heard the goal was to build a new offensive scheme around having a mobile quarterback. It seems like a sound theory when you have a quarterback like Watson, except that we also have a coach who can't get a quarterback ready to start the season...
Or an injured QB who is suffering from a sophomore slump and taking a weekly beating behind a bunch of backup OL.
Texansballer74
The Marine
And this is the bottom line. Its not hard to see that both coaches went with players for their system. The difference is like you said one got results by coaching his guys up while the other does not know how to coach them up.
Shishkabob
All Pro
poorly coached backup OL. There are plenty of other lines across the league who are actually hurt by injuries, who have multiple back ups playing at a higher level than our guys
Texansballer74
The Marine
They are starters now so we can't use that backup stuff. Bill Obrien wanted them to be his starters. So it's his job to coach them up. Or maybe he needs to dummy down their responsibilities a bit. Wade Smith said the other day that even HOF elite type talent wouldn't be able to handle the blocking responsibilities Obrien puts on his line.
True,
It's time for Devlin to go and a new OL coach to bring in fresh blood. This is the best that can be done since BOB isn't going anywhere.
I thought Devlin coached the OL. The OL cant even perform basic responsibilities. That's on Devlin. Although BOB hired Devlin so he's really responsible for the guys he hires.
Texansballer74
The Marine
That is on both Obrien and Delvin. Reason why I put most on BOB is because it's his scheme.
Yes we can, you cant get off this easy.
Remember your lets give them a chance, backups can be good players too post?
Now that they suck like I predicted this post happens. What did you really expect from a bunch of backup OL? At best 2 of the 4 would work out and the OL would still suck. Only Fulton has been avg to slightly above avg. I think Henderson could've become this too.
Regardless, what I want them to do now is get a new OL coach and draft a couple of OT's really high. An OG or 2 wouldn't hurt either.
The scheme isn't the problem, the talent on the OL is really the problem, I mean you really cant do much with trash like Davenport/Lamm playing OT. But Devlin shouldn't get a pass either because guys haven't really improved under his watch. Lamm has improved from putrid to bad.
Texansballer74
The Marine
It is the scheme bro. Every lineman we brought here regressed. Has nothing to do with talent.
Point out what's wrong with the Scheme, the scheme seems to work despite the lack of talent between the 20's. The scheeme doesn't seem to work on 3rd and shorts and goal to go's. That to me says the Talent level is lacking and right now BOB's trying to scheme around that lack of talent. So far he's done a poor job of this and combined with Watson missing some reads we have what we have and I dont see things getting better this yr because the talent isn't going to improve. The only way this will improve is if Watson improves his reads, because this OL isn't going to blow anybody off of the line and pickup a yd.
It would be easier to just admit you were wrong about the talent they brought in this offseason on the OL and move on, but we both know that's not going to happen.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
You’d have to believe the team is growing in order to have growing pains.
Regression hurts too.
Regression hurts too.
Shishkabob
All Pro
BOB keeping Devlin employed after our line regresses every year is a bigger crime than hiring him. Everyone will make a bad hire every now and again, but a good HC/GM/owner/manager etc has to know when to cut bait on a failed hire. I guess BOB takes after McNair in that regard
ATXtexanfan
Hall of Fame
Even if we use all our picks on the oline next year........
Devlin and OB still in charge of scheme and development
So frustrating
Shishkabob
All Pro
If OB isn't wise enough to fire Devlin after the season, I hope McNair steps in and forces him to
Texansballer74
The Marine
No that's not going to happen because those players brought in were good on their former teams. Henderson was the only one with a red flag.
Nobody and I mean nobody on here knows exactly what BOB is trying to run. Lol one minute its suppose to be the Ehrhardt-Perkins offensive system, then it's the West coast offense, followed up with Clemens offensive scheme and then power running scheme. Bwhahaha this is why the offensive linemen are so lost out there.
Mangler
Toro de España
We will see what Cal McNair is all about come this offeseasin. He’s supposed to take over the organization. I wonder if the cancer came back? Any word on Bob McNair??
They were backups they weren't good on their previous teams. If they would've been they would've been starting. We aren't going to agree and you aren't going to admit you were wrong so I'm going to move on.
Texansballer74
The Marine
There are so many examples of backups becoming starters. We're talking a laundry list of HISTORY. Every darn linemen that turns pro do not start right out the gates all the time. It's crazy on how you keep getting stuck in that mind frame. Just to prove your agenda continuously. We have 5 years of O'brien's coaching laid out right in front of you and you still won't blame him for this clown show. It has not been half a season yet and we're leading the league in hits on our QB by a landslide. Every year the offensive has gotten worse. And all you can come up with is talent/backups. Bleep the common denominator in this equation huh. Lol
Shishkabob
All Pro
important to note, while they weren't "starters" each was the ever valuable piece of the line as the "6th" lineman and did start their fair share of games due to injuries and played at a much higher level than they have showed here. Saints fans and media were very upset about losing Kelemente in free agency, even though they knew it was inevitable
Exactly. The NFL isn't filled with 1st round draft picks at the Oline. Many of them are bottom 3rd through 7 rounds and some are undrafted. 6 years already and OB's offenses have looked like crap every year. Crennel is the one keeping the Texans afloat at this point.
Still doesn't change the fact that at best the odds were that only 2 of the 4 would work out, which pretty much ensured a bad OL this yr. PFF also predicted this.
Shishkabob
All Pro
yea I knew our tackle positions would be bad, I just had higher expectations for the interior of our line and was hoping if they were solid it would allow us to dedicate more help outside to account for our tackles deficiencies
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Revisionist history. I remember Kubiak & his offense having similar redzone issues when he didn't have prime, healthy Foster to punch it in for him. I remember people on this very message board
" "why don't we ever throw the fade to AJ in the endzone.."....Apart from that, what you're trying to assert is pretty much garbage. While i can respect what guys like ND and Cooke & what they have to say, unless they're getting what they're saying from guys inside that locker room, what they're saying really is just an opinion much like ours is here. Aside from that, only 1 of these on air players is an offensive guy...Greg Cooke.
Also...im gonna need you to pay more attention. Teams don't bite on Watson's playfake b/c we can't run the ball worth ****. Why? mainly b/c of the talent in the backfield. Lamar Miller & Alfred Blue collectively scare no defense. Contrast all of these younger guys like Jared Goff, Trubisky & Mahome's playfakes with Watsons. None are really all that much different &/or special. the difference is who each is faking to. 3 guys are playfaking to credible running threats in Hunt, Howard & Gurley & other special talents like Tyreke Hill, and that other kid for the bears. 1 is not. Case & point, Lamar Miller was brought here for his breakaway speed but do any of you recall him breaking a long one or making more than 1 special play in the run game at any time since he's been here? I'll save you the trouble, no. His longest run as a Texan is only 45 yds. Funny thing is, the slower of the 2, Alfred Blue actually has 1 longer at 48 yds.
But even with a better talent at rb & a better run game, we'd still have major issues...b/c the talent up front save for 1.5 guys in Fulton & Martin. The Giants thought they could half ass it with their o-line too by signing Solder and drafting Barkley...& well, we see the results. Barkley's balling out, but they still can't protect Eli hence 1-5.
lastly, I'll just take from our esteemed Qb in several of his post game pressers this year:
"the guys on the other team get paid too..."
"The team goes as i go.."
And that's really all it comes down to. When Watson has played well, the offense has looked pretty good between the 20's.......much in the same way Kubiak's did. When they've bogged down, its usually been b/c
of the mistakes of individual players (penalties on the o-line putting them behind the chains, Watson throwing picks etc). But the redzone issue come back to the o-line. it's much tougher to pass down there & defenses typically get more aggressive b/c... A.) route combos for WR's are limited due to spacing & B.) db's aren't afraid of getting beat over the top. That's where the big uglies really earn their money & why it's imperative you have the ability to run. Unfortunately, we don't have the talent to execute & impose our will down there & the difference in talent really shows up.
Everyone wonders why BoB continues to run Miller/Blue up the middle like he does. That's why. You have to not only keep the defense honest, you have to at least maintain some threat that you may run the ball in most scenarios. You guys don't get that though, ya'll see some **** another team is doing and think it can translate here...not necessarily.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
The mistake you're making is thinking its coaching that's holding these guys back. Rankin was thought by many to be able to start at RT almost immediately...................but many also thought that his future was at guard too. Most 1st and 2nd round talents typically take at least 1 year to get their bearing on the NFL level to at least be serviceable.
You guys are in here thinking that your 3rd round talent should be coached up and ready to be serviceable by game 2 of his rookie year...conveniently ignoring the fact that he missed all of TC & preseason to boot.
He may very well be our future RT, but given the challenges he started out with (missing TC & preseason) & his status as a rookie, he was gonna struggle no matter what.
Some times OJT is the best teach/coach.
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
They're growing pains if i ever saw them.
1st year without a GM you had problems with...
1st year with a young qb............. whom still hasn't made a full year of starts yet
1st year of starting for lots of guys starting on your o-line
1st year for a slot wr you've been looking for since you got here.
For all the excuses being proposed, here's a question.
Name the last time a team before the 2018 Texans that had 1st and Goal from the one two consecutive weeks, and failed to punch it in? (I'm making it easier by removing the other failed attempts inside the ten)
Name the last time a team before the 2018 Texans that had 1st and Goal from the one two consecutive weeks, and failed to punch it in? (I'm making it easier by removing the other failed attempts inside the ten)
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Heck, lets just tear up the new 5 year deal, and give Buttchin a 10 year deal like Chucky!! I mean he's doing such a great job, all the fault lies on the players and Buttchin really only needs a few more all pro's to make this offense hum!
All O'Brien's fault. So many excuses. Somehow Crennel can deal with various GMs, injuries and rookies, making the defense top 10 almost every year.
Shishkabob
All Pro
Revisionist history. I remember Kubiak & his offense having similar redzone issues when he didn't have prime, healthy Foster to punch it in for him. I remember people on this very message board
Apart from that, what you're trying to assert is pretty much garbage. While i can respect what guys like ND and Cooke & what they have to say, unless they're getting what they're saying from guys inside that locker room, what they're saying really is just an opinion much like ours is here. Aside from that, only 1 of these on air players is an offensive guy...Greg Cooke.
Also...im gonna need you to pay more attention. Teams don't bite on Watson's playfake b/c we can't run the ball worth ****. Why? mainly b/c of the talent in the backfield. Lamar Miller & Alfred Blue collectively scare no defense. Contrast all of these younger guys like Jared Goff, Trubisky & Mahome's playfakes with Watsons. None are really all that much different &/or special. the difference is who each is faking to. 3 guys are playfaking to credible running threats in Hunt, Howard & Gurley & other special talents like Tyreke Hill, and that other kid for the bears. 1 is not. Case & point, Lamar Miller was brought here for his breakaway speed but do any of you recall him breaking a long one or making more than 1 special play in the run game at any time since he's been here? I'll save you the trouble, no. His longest run as a Texan is only 45 yds. Funny thing is, the slower of the 2, Alfred Blue actually has 1 longer at 48 yds.
But even with a better talent at rb & a better run game, we'd still have major issues...b/c the talent up front save for 1.5 guys in Fulton & Martin. The Giants thought they could half ass it with their o-line too by signing Solder and drafting Barkley...& well, we see the results. Barkley's balling out, but they still can't protect Eli hence 1-5.
lastly, I'll just take from our esteemed Qb in several of his post game pressers this year:
"the guys on the other team get paid too..."
"The team goes as i go.."
And that's really all it comes down to. When Watson has played well, the offense has looked pretty good between the 20's.......much in the same way Kubiak's did. When they've bogged down, its usually been b/c
of the mistakes of individual players (penalties on the o-line putting them behind the chains, Watson throwing picks etc). But the redzone issue come back to the o-line. it's much tougher to pass down there & defenses typically get more aggressive b/c... A.) route combos for WR's are limited due to spacing & B.) db's aren't afraid of getting beat over the top. That's where the big uglies really earn their money & why it's imperative you have the ability to run. Unfortunately, we don't have the talent to execute & impose our will down there & the difference in talent really shows up.
Everyone wonders why BoB continues to run Miller/Blue up the middle like he does. That's why. You have to not only keep the defense honest, you have to at least maintain some threat that you may run the ball in most scenarios. You guys don't get that though, ya'll see some **** another team is doing and think it can translate here...not necessarily.
yea you can try to discount what PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL PLAYERS say because they played defense, but they still know what they are talking about. After all it was their professions to study offense and learn their tendencies. But not only former defensive players have said it, former offensive players like Wade Smith, and Cecil Shorts have said the same thing. Our offense does not look like a well coached unit. You can cry it's a lack of talent all you want, but there are teams that are just as talent deficient as we are or worse and still execute at a higher level. We can over come things in the middle of the field because there is more space, but when it shrinks down in the redzone all the deficiencies come out. Our offense is poorly coached, watch our line on play action they don't sell the run, the receivers don't fake to block at first. On run plays Watson doesn't continue out his fake. It is clear to everyone besides you our offensive coaching has been sub par for going on 5 years now.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Crennel takes double losses as his official title last year & this year is "associate HC/defensive coordinator". So......................that begs the question then.....what was Crennel up to last year when his defense was getting its **** pushed in & this offense was trash outside of the 6 games Watson started? Was he just up in the press box eating popcorn while Vrabel & BoB were down there struggling?
Can't pump up Crennel now that the defense looks to be turning the corner when they were consistently getting killed last year.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Lol...no. what's clear is that you as fan are incapable of coming to your own conclusion about what's going on & rely on the opinions of talkshow hosts to form it. Those guys take their cues from you as a fan & are going to pump up whatever the hot topic is. & when your team doesnt win, the hot topic ususally revolves around HC decisions and qb play. You can go to every teams message board and find a thread on fans complaining about coaching. It is literally the go to of every fan when their team doesn't win...either that or the qb play.
& yeah, i'd like to see the list of these teams you're talking about whom are executing at a "higher" level who are talent deficient & who are winning. Beyond those 3 criterion, i'm calling ducktales.
So you're ready to dump Crennel for 1 bad year out of 5 but O'Brien has yet to have 1 good offensive year.
Wasn't the reason for the bad year because Crennel was giving Vrabel the majority of the DC duties?
Crennel, Kubiak and Wade all have something in common in that they know what they want. We are in year 6 with OB and he still doesn't have an idea on how he wants to run his offense.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I didn't say that at all....But if we follow what you guys have been advocating since before BoB's extension we should just "clean house" and get rid of the BoB stench right? Well, that includes Crennel too. He shouldn't get a pass either is all i'm saying.
Why shouldn't he get a pass? The defense is good almost every year. He's coaching like a top 10 DC. Considering that he's had to deal with a terrible organization that wastes picks and caproom makes he think he's more like a top 5 defensive coordinator.
The right thing would have been to keep Crennel and find a competent offensive head coach.
Imagine if all these years we had just an average offense instead of bottom 10 (now bottom 5).
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
If all these guys knew what they wanted, they'd all have been much more successful HC''s than they actually were...clearly that's not the case.
All 3 have had multiple opportunities to get it right and all failed. The only reason Kubiak had success is b/c the building of the team was pretty
much already done by the previous regime..he just had to come in & not screw it up lol.
I'm not talking about HC, but coaching in general. Kubiak made Carr serviceable even when that wasn't his choice of qb and was able to develop Schaub. Wade and Crennel made the defense good for a couple of years. I can't say the same thing about OB.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
He's also collectively had the most talent on his side of the ball brought in for him too. He should not get a pass b/c as i said, he's been an associate HC for the last 3 years & has been apart of the coaching regime that's been in place for 5 years now too. You can't sit up here and put his failures as a HC/DC on the "organization" and then put BoB's failures on him & him alone.
OB just had to come in this year and not screw up Deshaun Watson, yet he found a way.