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Erhardt-Perkins Offense

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So I wanted to start this thread to discuss the EP offensive system outside of the context of the Texans. This my favorite article on the Patriots' version of it. I believe OB is trying to do similar things with your offense.

In this thread on OB I described how a coach should use EP to manipulate defensive match-ups.

I believe that many elements of the game plan I described is currently on display in the Patriots game vs. the Broncos.

I am very interested in this thread (have been looking forward to it actually), but if I may - posting links is not a good way to begin a discussion - 'I read, I understood, I moved on'. You've had many great insights into this system and how it may pertain to the Texans with O'Brien. Be more personal - using links and quotes to support your stance instead of forcing the reader to do all of the work.
 
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I am very interested in this thread (have been looking forward to it actually), but if I may - posting links is not a good way to begin a discussion - 'I read, I understood, I moved on'. You've had many great insights into this system and how it may pertain to the Texans with O'Brien. Be more personal - using links and quotes to support your stance instead of forcing the reader to do all of the work.

Lazy?
 
I am very interested in this thread (have been looking forward to it actually), but if I may - posting links is not a good way to begin a discussion - 'I read, I understood, I moved on'. You've had many great insights into this system and how it may pertain to the Texans with O'Brien. Be more personal - using links and quotes to support your stance instead of forcing the reader to do all of the work.

That is a super interesting point, and I will definitely consider that going forward. My goal with posting those links was to achieve a baseline of understanding to begin the topic, but I agree it was a lazy start. I should have summarized it as best I could. Furthermore, I should have made it more clear that the goal of the thread was to create a space to talk about offensive scheme more generally ("Offensive Scheme Thread" might have been better name). I would be totally happy if we don't focus on OB and/or the Pats. I would love to learn more about what Kubiak did for example.

So let me try to start this again, this time with some questions:

1. Besides the Pats and the Texans, I believe the following teams still use EP: Panthers, Dolphins, and Steelers (there may be more). Can we notice any similarities in the offensive styles of these teams? How tightly related is play calling scheme in game-planning strategy?

2. I have implied that college no-huddle teams are closer to an EP system than a "west-coast" system. Is this true? How does calling plays from the sideline impact play calling?

3. EP claims to pack more information per phrase compared to the other 2 NFL systems. How does this impact audibles? Does it make things easier in hurry-up offense?

4. I have previously claimed that EP allows for offensive flexibility. I can think of a recent example of a non-ep team manipulating match-ups in the way I described in the "fire-ob" thread (hint: a NFC playoff contender). Is the level of offensive flexibility more a function of OC game-planning skill?
 
Drunk.

I had to dial back a 3 paragraph diatribe to make that statement. I want to see where this discussion can go regarding the merits and intricacies of various systems - and didn't want to see the thread die without folks having an incentive to get involved.

For those that are too drunk, I empathize deeply. Here is a "too long didn't read":

On passing plays, most NFL systems specify each individual route for each particular receiver. This allows the receiver to know exactly what to do just from the play call, but means that the play calls are incredibly long.

EP puts more of a burden on the receivers. Instead of specifying route by route, it uses multiple-receiver route concepts. If you click on my avatar, you can see an example of the EP method. The top-left play is "3 out slot hat - 73 ghost tosser". Lets break that down piece by piece (I have a partial copy of the Pats 2004 playbook I found online)

"3 out slot hat - 73 ghost tosser"

"3 out slot": the initial formation
"(H)at": tells the "H" player "to move to the TE side from a backfield set
"73": sets the protection, and strong side. 72 & 73 are both for empty protects with 5 skill players in routes.
"ghost": ghost is a three-receiver route concept. it tells the outside to run a fade, the middle route is an out, and the inside to run a flat route.
"tosser": tosser is the two-receiver route, in which the inside runs a slant, and the outside runs a deeper post.

-----

I will describe that same play as in a "West Coast" system. I am going to leave the EP terminology for the formation, protection, and pre-snap motion. I believe these would also vary, but not in important ways. The key difference is the West Coast system will specify each route individually. The play call becomes:

"3 out slot hat - 73 X Post, Y out, Z Slant, H Flat, F fade"

Again, the key is that each individual route is specified. The receiver knows exactly what to do in isolation, but is not invited to think about the play as a wholistic picture.

This is merely an example, and I don't think I translated it perfect, and left a good portion of it in EP language. I also have a copy of the old West Coast playbook. If someone finds a West Coast play call, I can try to break it down piece by piece.
 
I will throw out one more piece of thought provoking information. My friend on the Patriots board just posted this:

Lombardi's great stuff on attacking adjustments to the defence (30:00):
'GM Street' — Week 10 Rapid Reactions (Ep. 182) (this link is to site the source, no need to listen to understand the point)

“This is what makes Patriots so effective - they know the D of DEN better than Broncos.. The first TD pass that Burkhead came underneath . they know that guy is man to man . but when Gronk runs up the field he takes two defenders with him . and LB once he gets to 10yds stops and turns back bc he's turning him over to the S (they're not tripling Gronk just doubling).. Patriots know that he's carrying him for 10 so they run him for 10 and by that time Burkhead's crossed the middle and the middle is wide open.. So what they are doing is attacking the adjustment to the coverage.

... Josh McD knows Vance Joseph's D as well as VJ knows it. That's what it means being successful on the offense . not only to know the D /of the opponent/ but know the adjustments to the D..“

The take away IMO: perhaps the Pats might be successful with EP because they are so good an scouting and game planning. They could recognize the defensive coverage and run routes that attack it. By itself EP is just a system. You still need to do the hard work.
 
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Does anyone here remember seeing a Ron Erhardt coordinated offense? They looked nothing like anything the Texans have ever run. Do they use the same terminology? That has to be the only link.
EP is/was a power run game, OL are big strong road graders vs ZBS based on timing and finesse with smaller more athletic OL. EP passing is a pocket passing game, with more shotgun today, vs WCO that works off RPO, bootlegs, getting out of the pocket and precision timing. Today's EP incorporates more of a quick short passing game using more WRs, multiple TEs and checkdowns. Today's EP is also more focused on individual matchups.
 
You have to admit, it’s very plausible that Nick & Jack wanted McCowen to replace Kelly as OC.
Why would Nick want Josh? Other than Jack, where's the connection?
EP is/was a power run game,
Erhardt always featured a big TE running the seams or crossing routes. Eric Green, Mark Bavarro, Russ Francis. When have the Texans ever done that? When Watson was here, it never made sense to run that offense. But what about before that? I don't see why Casario would be married to anything like an Erhardt offense.
 
Why would Nick want Josh? Other than Jack, where's the connection?

Erhardt always featured a big TE running the seams or crossing routes. Eric Green, Mark Bavarro, Russ Francis. When have the Texans ever done that? When Watson was here, it never made sense to run that offense. But what about before that? I don't see why Casario would be married to anything like an Erhardt offense.
I don't know why we keep calling it EP offense. It really is the Belichick system that is a spinoff of EP.
 
Erhardt always featured a big TE running the seams or crossing routes. Eric Green, Mark Bavarro, Russ Francis. When have the Texans ever done that? When Watson was here, it never made sense to run that offense.
I don't know why we keep calling it EP offense. It really is the Belichick system that is a spinoff of EP.

Good points. Belichick took the EP offense and integrated spread offense concepts with shifty and quick slot WRs that also complemented the running game while keeping the big TE (Gronk). I think he got the slot WR concept from Chip Kelly's spread offenses.

BOB gets here. Implements his ED version of the EP offense and he could never find a good slot WR and even though they kept drafting TEs, he could never consistently integrate them in his game plan offense. So, we are running an offense that is supposed to have a slot WR to help you move the chains and TEs roaming the seams. Neither consistently happened.

It's one of the reasons I wanted them to sign Cole Beasley. Remember Coutee's game against the Colts? If BOB was able to consistently get that type of production from a slot WR, the offense would have made more sense for Watson and even solve some of the running game problems. Obviously, BOB never understood the slot WR role in the offense because he signed Cobb who is not an Amendola, Welker, Beasley or even Coutee type slot WR.

If they want to keep running the EP offense, they have to find a slot WR and 50-year-old Amendola is not the answer. Watch what McDaniels does with Hunter Renfrow in Vegas. BTW. Renfrow was another potential slot guy who was available in the later rounds.
 
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EP is/was a power run game, OL are big strong road graders vs ZBS based on timing and finesse with smaller more athletic OL. EP passing is a pocket passing game, with more shotgun today, vs WCO that works off RPO, bootlegs, getting out of the pocket and precision timing. Today's EP incorporates more of a quick short passing game using more WRs, multiple TEs and checkdowns. Today's EP is also more focused on individual matchups.
Thanks, good comparison.
 
Good points. Belichick took the EP offense and integrated spread offense concepts with shifty and quick slot WRs that also complemented the running game while keeping the big TE (Gronk). I think he got the slot WR concept from Chip Kelly's spread offenses
Nowadays, it's all about terminology. Everybody incorporates everything at one time or another. Watching New England since Belichick has been there we've seen his offense & defense for that matter, adapt to personnel & rules & trends, etc...

It's been power O, Air Coryell, WCO, big play, dink & dunk, play action, etc...

imo, today it's just a language.
 
Nowadays, it's all about terminology. Everybody incorporates everything at one time or another. Watching New England since Belichick has been there we've seen his offense & defense for that matter, adapt to personnel & rules & trends, etc...

It's been power O, Air Coryell, WCO, big play, dink & dunk, play action, etc...

imo, today it's just a language.

I agree with this. It's mainly about terminology, but it's also about how much control the QB is given at the line of scrimmage to change to another play in the playbook.

There are a lot of teams out there that run some variation of the EP offense, but the coordinators (if they're smart) adapt it to their personnel so that they can be successful.

The problem isn't the EP system. It's on the effective implementation of the EP system, from play design, to play calling, to identifying the appropriate reads for all the players and coaching them up so they're on the same page.

An offense doesn't suck because it's EP, an offense sucks because it's Bill O'Brien's implementation of EP.
 
I agree with this. It's mainly about terminology, but it's also about how much control the QB is given at the line of scrimmage to change to another play in the playbook.
Agree, more or less.

I think every system allows as much control as the other, but sometimes the coaches don't trust the QB enough, or trusts the QB too much.

I think Schaub's best attribute was his ability to get to the right play from the LOS. He didn't audible much, because there was always an answer built in, so Kubiak says.

I think Watson biggest problem was reading the defense at the LOS & getting into the right play. He also didn't audible much & I don't think it was O'Brien stopping him.
 
Why would Nick want Josh? Other than Jack, where's the connection?

Erhardt always featured a big TE running the seams or crossing routes. Eric Green, Mark Bavarro, Russ Francis. When have the Texans ever done that? When Watson was here, it never made sense to run that offense. But what about before that? I don't see why Casario would be married to anything like an Erhardt offense.

Cronk wasn’t any big TE was he?

Caserio and Easterby are a package Chairmen and Chief Executive Officer, Cal McNair brought to Houston to work under and for him. Jack is in Cal’s pocket. Caserio is their guy. It’s a process and how they work and coexist.
 
Agree, more or less.

I think every system allows as much control as the other, but sometimes the coaches don't trust the QB enough, or trusts the QB too much.

I think Schaub's best attribute was his ability to get to the right play from the LOS. He didn't audible much, because there was always an answer built in, so Kubiak says.

I think Watson biggest problem was reading the defense at the LOS & getting into the right play. He also didn't audible much & I don't think it was O'Brien stopping him.
Obviously asking Derrick to be able to read defenses like Brady was a mistake.
 
Good points. Belichick took the EP offense and integrated spread offense concepts with shifty and quick slot WRs that also complemented the running game while keeping the big TE (Gronk). I think he got the slot WR concept from Chip Kelly's spread offenses.

BOB gets here. Implements his ED version of the EP offense and he could never find a good slot WR and even though they kept drafting TEs, he could never consistently integrate them in his game plan offense. So, we are running an offense that is supposed to have a slot WR to help you move the chains and TEs roaming the seams. Neither consistently happened.

It's one of the reasons I wanted them to sign Cole Beasley. Remember Coutee's game against the Colts? If BOB was able to consistently get that type of production from a slot WR, the offense would have made more sense for Watson and even solve some of the running game problems. Obviously, BOB never understood the slot WR role in the offense because he signed Cobb who is not an Amendola, Welker, Beasley or even Coutee type slot WR.

If they want to keep running the EP offense, they have to find a slot WR and 50-year-old Amendola is not the answer. Watch what McDaniels does with Hunter Renfrow in Vegas. BTW. Renfrow was another potential slot guy who was available in the later rounds.
Agreed,

Some posters (looking at you Leebig) don't think the slot wr position is important.

This is a great year to fill.the TE/Slot wr position IMHO.
 
I was shocked the Texans didn’t draft Watson’s ole buddy Hunter Renfrow in the 2019 draft. Maybe because Keke Coutee hadn’t been firmly planted in OB’s doghouse coming off his rookie year.

True, they would have 1 less spot that needs to be filled. Phillps is this yrs Renfrow. What rd would you draft him in?
 
Agreed,

Some posters (looking at you Leebig) don't think the slot wr position is important.

This is a great year to fill.the TE/Slot wr position IMHO.
The slot WR can be an extension of the running game, they can keep the chains moving and keep you in manageable downs and distances. If you don't have a strong running game, the next best thing is a great slot WR.
Another thing that bugged me about the Texans' ED offense. When you look at teams running the WCO, they use their WRs as run blockers. On many of Foster's big runs, you can see Andre Johnson and even Kevin Walter blocking on the edge.

With BOB, he used the TEs more in the blocking game and all it did was create more defenders in the box to stop the suspect running game. In fact, that's why he got a speed RB and edge runner in Miller and rarely ran any outer zone or edge runs. We know Brandin Cooks' size prevents him from being a good run blocker. However, I'm hoping Nico Collins can also help out in the run blocking.
 
The slot WR can be an extension of the running game, they can keep the chains moving and keep you in manageable downs and distances. If you don't have a strong running game, the next best thing is a great slot WR.
Another thing that bugged me about the Texans' ED offense. When you look at teams running the WCO, they use their WRs as run blockers. On many of Foster's big runs, you can see Andre Johnson and even Kevin Walter blocking on the edge.

With BOB, he used the TEs more in the blocking game and all it did was create more defenders in the box to stop the suspect running game. In fact, that's why he got a speed RB and edge runner in Miller and rarely ran any outer zone or edge runs. We know Brandin Cooks' size prevents him from being a good run blocker. However, I'm hoping Nico Collins can also help out in the run blocking.

That’s one thing Kubiak and now Lil Shanny do well. Use the WRs effectively as blockers in the run game.
 
Obviously asking Derrick to be able to read defenses like Brady was a mistake.

To be fair. Asking any young QB to read the defense like Brady is idiotic. People forget that although the media labelled BOB a QB whisperer. He was the Pats QB coach in 2009 and OC in 2011, By that time, Brady was in his 9th NFL year and 32 years old. Until joining the Texans, he never truly developed a young NFL QB. Hell, Pep and probably McCown have more experience working with young NFL QBs than BOB.

Also, even the great Mahomes is on record that he only started understanding NFL defenses in his 3rd year and that was with him playing in a QB friendly system that was tailored for him by implementing concepts from his college offense. So, even the Chiefs were not expecting him to read defenses like Brady. Shoot, thinking about this. Not even a young Brady was reading NFL defenses like 32 year old Brady.
 
To be fair. Asking any young QB to read the defense like Brady is idiotic. People forget that although the media labelled BOB a QB whisperer. He was the Pats QB coach in 2009 and OC in 2011, By that time, Brady was in his 9th NFL year and 32 years old. Until joining the Texans, he never truly developed a young NFL QB. Hell, Pep and probably McCown have more experience working with young NFL QBs than BOB.

Also, even the great Mahomes is on record that he only started understanding NFL defenses in his 3rd year and that was with him playing in a QB friendly system that was tailored for him by implementing concepts from his college offense. So, even the Chiefs were not expecting him to read defenses like Brady. Shoot, thinking about this. Not even a young Brady was reading NFL defenses like 32 year old Brady.
When do you think Derrick will get in the same neighborhood when it comes to reading defenses like Brady?

I'm thinking never.
 
When do you think Derrick will get in the same neighborhood when it comes to reading defenses like Brady?

I'm thinking never.
You will probably disagree, but any QB who has thrown 104 TDs with only 36 INTs can read defenses. If Mills gets to any point where he has 104 TDs with only 36 INTs we would be ecstatic.

Brady is the GOAT. Not many QBs in NFL history can read defenses like Brady. If your bar is a QB must read defenses like Brady. Exactly when did Brady reach that level? How many games did he play to get to Tom Brady level? Brady's highest INT totals were also his first 4-6 years starting. So, I would say not even young Brady was reading defenses like old Brady before his 5th or 6th season. The good thing is that if they have good coaching, young QBs don't have to read defenses like 40 year old Brady in their 3rd and 4th years.
 
You will probably disagree, but any QB who has thrown 104 TDs with only 36 INTs can read defenses. If Mills gets to any point where he has 104 TDs with only 36 INTs we would be ecstatic.

Brady is the GOAT. Not many QBs in NFL history can read defenses like Brady. If your bar is a QB must read defenses like Brady. Exactly when did Brady reach that level? How many games did he play to get to Tom Brady level? Brady's highest INT totals were also his first 4-6 years starting. So, I would say not even young Brady was reading defenses like old Brady before his 5th or 6th season. The good thing is that if they have good coaching, young QBs don't have to read defenses like 40 year old Brady in their 3rd and 4th years.

So which is it, can he read defenses or not. He wasn't very good at calling out the right protections and seemed to be a slow processor when defenses could rush their DE'wide to keep him in the pocket and drop 7-8 was the book on how to control him and it worked.

Brady wasn't making many mistakes though. Wanna know how I know this because he had 2 rings in the time period you're referring too. The most important thing is to be able to play well and limit mistakes in the 3-4 games it takes to win a ring. Stats don't matter. Not making mistakes and being clutch in the playoffs for 4 games is all that matters. Not regular season stats or being great in 1 playoff game but sucking in another etc .. Brady was the best at being his best in the playoffs.
 
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So which is it, can he read defenses or not. He wasn't very good at calling out the right protections and seemed to be a slow processor when defenses could rush their DE'wide to keep him in the pocket and drop 7-8 was the book on how to control him and it worked.

Brady wasn't making many mistakes though. Wanna know how I know this because he had 2 rings in the time period you're referring too. The most important thing is to be able to play well and limit mistakes in the 3-4 games it takes to win a ring. Stats don't matter. Not making mistakes and being clutch in the playoffs for 4 games is all that matters. Not regular season stats or being great in 1 playoff game but sucking in another etc .. Brady was the best at being his best in the playoffs.
You set the bar as Tom Brady the GOAT. So, Watson can read defenses but not at the same level as a Tom Brady. He hasn't seen all of the looks defenses will throw at him. Certain timely defensive calls can still confuse him. That is totally normal for all young QBS.

In other words, Watson is no different than the majority of 3rd or 4th year QBs with room to grow. Who in the right mind expects a 3rd year QB who have started 50 games to read defenses at the same level as Tom Brady who has played 300 games? So, we will agree to disagree.
 
You set the bar as Tom Brady the GOAT. So, Watson can read defenses but not at the same level as a Tom Brady. He hasn't seen all of the looks defenses will throw at him. Certain timely defensive calls can still confuse him. That is totally normal for all young QBS.

In other words, Watson is no different than the majority of 3rd or 4th year QBs with room to grow. Who in the right mind expects a 3rd year QB who have started 50 games to read defenses at the same level as Tom Brady who has played 300 games? So, we will agree to disagree.

He cant read defenses as well as any of the top 5 QB's some on this MB seem to think he is.
 
Nowadays, it's all about terminology. Everybody incorporates everything at one time or another. Watching New England since Belichick has been there we've seen his offense & defense for that matter, adapt to personnel & rules & trends, etc...

It's been power O, Air Coryell, WCO, big play, dink & dunk, play action, etc...

imo, today it's just a language.

Bingo.

This is the best article that I've ever read about the way NE adapted the EP offense. Like you said, it's about communication, and this adaptation allows various types of offensive schemes to be incorporated based on your available personnel.

Speak My Language

As the players and schemes have changed, it's the way the Patriots talk that's continued their offensive dominance

Excerpt:

The backbone of the Erhardt-Perkins system is that plays — pass plays in particular — are not organized by a route tree or by calling a single receiver’s route, but by what coaches refer to as “concepts.” Each play has a name, and that name conjures up an image for both the quarterback and the other players on offense. And, most importantly, the concept can be called from almost any formation or set. Who does what changes, but the theory and tactics driving the play do not. “In essence, you’re running the same play,” said Perkins. “You’re just giving them some window-dressing to make it look different.”

The biggest advantage of the concept-based system is that it operates from the perspective of the most critical player on offense: the quarterback. In other systems, even if the underlying principles are the exact same, the play and its name might be very different. Rather than juggling all this information in real time, an Erhardt-Perkins quarterback only has to read a given arrangement of receivers. “You can cut down on the plays and get different looks from your formations and who’s in them. It’s easier for the players to learn. It’s easier for the quarterback to learn,” former Patriots offensive coordinator Charlie Weis said back in 2000. “You get different looks without changing his reads. You don’t need an open-ended number of plays.”

Full article
 
Bingo.

This is the best article that I've ever read about the way NE adapted the EP offense. Like you said, it's about communication, and this adaptation allows various types of offensive schemes to be incorporated based on your available personnel.

Yet Derrick still struggled.
 
Not enough disciplined thinking and too much hero ball.

That said, the NFL has watered itself down to the point where there is a place for hero ball since they've basically neutered defenses.

This is God'ells woke NFL we're talking about.

Meanwhile with the gamblers and streaming the owners will make more money than ever under God'ells corrupt leadership. The NFL doesn't give a crap about the fans anymore.
 
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Struggled with 4800 yds over 30 tds and less than 10 ints? Lots of struggling going on. Imagine having an offense design to his talent vs the stale offense only Brady can pretty much run? WCO have been way more successful with multple qbs and multiple styles.

4 wins and that offense allowed him to put up those empty numbers. I guess he would've thrown for 10,000 yds and a 100 TD's with no support in an offense of your choice. Probably would've gotten 6-7 wins out of that offense.

BTW, I'm not saying I like BOB's offense.
 
4 wins and that offense allowed him to put up those empty numbers. I guess he would've thrown for 10,000 yds and a 100 TD's with no support in an offense of your choice. Probably would've gotten 6-7 wins out of that offense.

BTW, I'm not saying I like BOB's offense.
If the defense wouldve been middle of the road like this season ,they wouldve won 9 or 10 games, but you're going to believe what you believe.
 
If the defense wouldve been middle of the road like this season ,they wouldve won 9 or 10 games, but you're going to believe what you believe.

Looking back at you.

I noticed in the other thread you didn't answer the question I asked,

Which of the 7 QB's I listed do you think Derrick reads defenses better than those guys?
 
Looking back at you.

I noticed in the other thread you didn't answer the question I asked,

Which of the 7 QB's I listed do you think Derrick reads defenses better than those guys?
I didnt answer because its a ridiculous assumption by yourself. You make it seem as though he's reading once and taking off with the ball and thats the furthest. Go look at his advanced numbers when he had a compliment f wr's. I mean , when Fuller was healthy with Hopkins, the offense was pretty hood even though it was square peg in a round hole. All the other young qbs get added skill players, not taken away. Those are just facts.
 
I didnt answer because its a ridiculous assumption by yourself. You make it seem as though he's reading once and taking off with the ball and thats the furthest. Go look at his advanced numbers when he had a compliment f wr's. I mean , when Fuller was healthy with Hopkins, the offense was pretty hood even though it was square peg in a round hole. All the other young qbs get added skill players, not taken away. Those are just facts.

Of course the offense looked better with Hopkins and WFV. It would look better with any QB throwing to those guys. Funny how Derrick had his best season after Hopkins was traded. (Coincidence? I think not) Even if alot of those numbers were hollow numbers. Why did the offense look square peg/round hole? Because Derrick wasn't good at reading defenses. Which of the 7 QB's I listed is Derrick better than when it comes to reading defenses?

Fact is BOB put to much responsibility on Derrick's plate when he had him making line calls and things like that. BOB expected Derrick to learn to play the QB position like Brady and if he was a top 5 QB like some claim he should've been able to do this. BOB paid for thinking Derrick was a top 5 QB with his job.
 
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Of course the offense looked better with Hopkins and WFV. It would look better with any QB throwing to those guys. Funny how Derrick had his best season after Hopkins was traded. (Coincidence? I think not) Even if alot of those numbers were hollow numbers. Why did the offense look square peg/round hole? Because Derrick wasn't good at reading defenses. Which of the 7 QB's I listed is Derrick better than when it comes to reading defenses?

Fact is BOB put to much responsibility on Derrick's plate when he had him making line calls and things like that. BOB expected Derrick to learn to play the QB position like Brady and if he was a top 5 QB like some claim he should've been able to do this. BOB paid for thinking Derrick was a top 5 QB with his job.
One minute you say he got better after Hopkins left, then you say he couldn't read a defense.

Even though he spread the ball around very well in 2019.

I think he reads defenses as well as anyone. He does Roethlisberger it at times & hold the ball too long.. but that's more about the style he chooses to play.
 
One minute you say he got better after Hopkins left, then you say he couldn't read a defense.

Even though he spread the ball around very well in 2019.

I think he reads defenses as well as anyone. He does Roethlisberger it at times & hold the ball too long.. but that's more about the style he chooses to play.

What I said was to name one of the 7 QB's I listed that he's better at reading defenses than? So no he's not a top 5 QB and never has been. BOB thinking he was cost BOB his job. So I guess that's a positive.

He was forced to spread the ball around.

This is going nowhere fast and I'm going to stop this conversation before you decide to ban me again.
 
& he did it pretty well.

No one reads a defense better than Deshaun Watson. He's definitely top 5 & worthy of a slew of draft picks if not for his legal issues
And to think some on here say I shouldn't be comparing his ability to read defenses to Brady's.

BOB expected this and it got him fired. Rightfully so might I add.
 
What I said was to name one of the 7 QB's I listed that he's better at reading defenses than? So no he's not a top 5 QB and never has been. BOB thinking he was cost BOB his job. So I guess that's a positive.

He was forced to spread the ball around.

This is going nowhere fast and I'm going to stop this conversation before you decide to ban me again.
If Andy Reid took away Kelce and Cheetah, how well do you think Mahomes would spread the ball around? Trying to force a 3yr qb to spread the ball vs getting better players to throw to is ridiculous especially when your oline is below average and your run game is too. When Fuller was healthy, look at Hopkins targets. When he was not, what were the choices? It's not like BOB was scheming guys open by formation like most other competent coordinators. Look how many targets Kupp got this year even with Woods and Jefferson . Woods go down, they sign OBJ. Yet, you want the Texans to surround Mills with talent to see if he can be that dude. The Texans didn't surround Watson and he was still that dude. Make it make sense please.
 
So which is it, can he read defenses or not. He wasn't very good at calling out the right protections and seemed to be a slow processor when defenses could rush their DE'wide to keep him in the pocket and drop 7-8 was the book on how to control him and it worked.

Brady wasn't making many mistakes though. Wanna know how I know this because he had 2 rings in the time period you're referring too. The most important thing is to be able to play well and limit mistakes in the 3-4 games it takes to win a ring. Stats don't matter. Not making mistakes and being clutch in the playoffs for 4 games is all that matters. Not regular season stats or being great in 1 playoff game but sucking in another etc .. Brady was the best at being his best in the playoffs.
So Brady winning this rings had nothing to do with having a top 2 defense? Brady winning the superbowl had 0 to do with after throwing 3 picks, the defense forced 3 and outs after the turnovers. You remember Brady last playoff game in New England vs Titans? Remember Mahomes last superbowl when he was running for his life because his 2 bookends were injured?
 
So Brady winning this rings had nothing to do with having a top 2 defense? Brady winning the superbowl had 0 to do with after throwing 3 picks, the defense forced 3 and outs after the turnovers. You remember Brady last playoff game in New England vs Titans? Remember Mahomes last superbowl when he was running for his life because his 2 bookends were injured?

I know Derrick will never be able to read defenses like Brady. He isn't smart enough.
 
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