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Davis Mills getting no respect
- Thread starter SnakeEyes
- Start date
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Levis maybe b/c he’s never really played exclusively for a top talent team.
Stroud and Young on the other hand…..have never went under Center with a team as bad as the Texans. I just don’t think they’d be prepared for the transition from crème de La crème to shite on the floor.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Pep was pretty good with Herbert first round (6) and Luck first round (1). CJ Stroud is a top notch quarterback. And like you said if we land the number 1 pick, Caserio will more and likely draft him.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
If Stroud continues to have another big season with Ohio State.....Caserio and the Texans could command one heck of a haul if they have that #1 pick.
It looks as though Mills is going through the same thing he did last season when the offense was relatively new to him. This is another new offense and who knows if both Pep and Mills are playing it too safe. Maybe it's after the bye week that the cloth finally comes off the offense. Crazy, but I'm looking for any reason to figure out why the offense is playing it so conservatively.
Texansballer74
The Marine
But it’s not new to him Optimistic, they’re running Stanfords play book. They’re not running some type of complicated complexed offense. He’s just not going through his progressions, he’s not stepping up in the pocket and he’s not setting his feet right on his throws. That has nothing to do with a new offense. His mechanics is off.
And I don’t see them trading away their number 1 overall pick. Especially if Stroud balls out again.
KoolAid Sipper
AFCEVET
He only played ~13 games I believe so I would question how effectively did he execute Stanford's offense. There's also a video where he mentions they simplified it to help with running it. His footwork has always been off at times and not just when pressured, I've seen some of his Stanford highlights where his footwork was off too. His development is not trending at a rate most (me too) had hoped but I'm thinking Mills is who he is. He will probably get more proficient at knowing an offense but being an impact QB could be far-fetched.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Is it the same playbook or is it a different playbook using the same terminology? It is a slight difference but still a difference maker.
On the second part - yea you are right.
Why would he regress so much in an off-season? It didn’t seem like anyone had anything negative to say about his footwork last season. He had good accuracy too.
It is almost like he got “Brad Lidge’d” without giving up the home run.
Personally, based on the talent on this team I would bring in Gardner Minshew for a season or two and draft a rookie in 2024. Let the rookie sit behind Minshew for a year. Unless Mills turns it around in a dramatic fashion. Still waiting for end of season.
Mills has to face some competition and show some fire in his belly. Even though I'm not crazy about his schtick, Minshew would be good competition. I'm basing this off the Texans not taking a QB in the 2023 draft.
vtech9
All Pro
If his mechanics are off, is that because of something Pep and the QB coach have caused by trying to fix something else?
Raiders are out to an 0-3 start.
I know it's frustrating not seeing the Texans take big steps like other teams have. But look at the circumstances this team faces. The previous regime traded away drafts and created cap hell. Then, the franchise QB disaster. Then the new regime dumped whatever was left from the previous regime's roster. This is essentially an expansion team in its 2nd year. You have to step back and look at the forest. This is what a bottom up rebuild looks like. Concentrate on what good you see, Pitre's stellar performance and Green's powerful inside play. Even if the Texans do everything right, the corner won't be turned until 2024.
Levi's could be like Allen if developed properly. He's very raw. Do I have any faith the Texans can develop a QB like that or fans can be patient while he developes? Nope LMAO
Dejaview
All Pro
I agree. It’s hard to wade through the constant negativity around here but I’m optimistic. I also believe DM needs to step it up but to spend negative energy on him this year isn’t good for the immune system, lol. I WANT him to take command because that is the best thing that could happen to the Texans going forward. Anything less is just a reboot. Too bad about Metchie in so many ways but I always have liked Dorsett and would like to see him get more involved to help DM get into a rhythm with quick short throws. Its a gut feeling but if DM can get that one good game I believe Pep can build on it.
Can't be as raw as Josh Allen was. Or as gifted. That's once every 30 years physical ability. You have to go back to Elway.
Or Mahomes
Mahomes has more freaky skills than monster raw talent. His ability to throw at seemingly any angle is from his baseball skills. He's not as big or strong as Allen. And as great as Mahomes arm is, it's not Allen's level.
I have no doubt that his baseball background has helped him tremendously, but I’ve seen his trainer give a presentation on how they train. He said they do spend quite a bit of time working on throwing from weird arm angles and throwing on the move.
Thinking about this, I’d like to see Mills work with Tom House who is TB’s throwing coach. I know Brady obsessively works on his mechanics. I think Mills needs some of that
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
I hate to say this, but the NFL and Vegas is all about entertainment nowadays.
If your team don't have the character(s), it's extremely difficult to find the day.
Look at the length the NFL goes to try to make games interesting.
More close games than ever to keep the excitement and the interest of viewers.
It's just entertainment.
If you want to dance, you'd better have some moves or a pretty girl.
If your team don't have the character(s), it's extremely difficult to find the day.
Look at the length the NFL goes to try to make games interesting.
More close games than ever to keep the excitement and the interest of viewers.
It's just entertainment.
If you want to dance, you'd better have some moves or a pretty girl.
What?
I’m starting to get really down on Pep. I know there’s a lack of quality players on offense but I’m not seeing any interesting or creative elements to our play designs. Every week watching other games I’m seeing plays where guys are schemed wide open. This happens multiple times per game and I’ve seen that happen twice in 2 games for the Texans, the flea flicker earlier in the year and the TD to Burkhead against the Chargers. I’ve seen many, many more plays where the defense seems to know what’s coming instantly.
For example, on several of the Chargers more effective runs they motioned a WR across the formation causing the LBs to pause a beat which helped create running lanes for their RBs. We rarely have pre snap motion, except for that goofy things where he splits the Ts out wide.
I think Pep might be an elite QB coach, but he’s very blah as an OC
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
What about when the qb throwing the ball over open wr's head and miss a big gain. Is that Pep fault too?
ben.aires.smith
Rookie
Hey all, first post here as I signed up yesterday to weigh-in on some stuff...
Regarding Davis Mills, I'm frustrated because from my vantage point, I see a QB with a NFL arm talent (strong, accurate when set, can layer throws and hit windows) and he displays this semi-consistently when he has a clean pocket. Mills can flat out throw dimes out there. However, that's no different than quite a few QBs when they have the proper time to set.
What Mills has to get better with in pocket presence—feeling and sliding away from pressure to buy those extra 2-4 seconds of time to hit receivers when the defense breaks down. It's not enough for Mills to just have NFL arm talent, which should be apparent to all. He must be able to improvise and avoid costly mistakes when the pocket is less than ideal. I believe this is a primary reason why Mills looks good some drives and awful the next—he's too dependent on a clean pocket for success and the Texans OL isn't very strong. They were horrible this past game, in fact.
So one of my biggest watches until the end of the season is how Mills improves his pocket presence and improvisation when it breaks down. Will he continue to be a dumpster fire when pressured, or can he still make plays? Because generally I like what I see when the OL holds up and his arm talent is there. His ability to improve pocket presence will determine whether he's a starting QB in this league or a backup.
At the very least, he'll be a Tier-1 NFL backup IMO. Haven't given up on Mills as a franchise QB either because of excellent arm talent, but he's got to have better pocket awareness, situational awareness improviso. Season not even 1/4 through.
Regarding Davis Mills, I'm frustrated because from my vantage point, I see a QB with a NFL arm talent (strong, accurate when set, can layer throws and hit windows) and he displays this semi-consistently when he has a clean pocket. Mills can flat out throw dimes out there. However, that's no different than quite a few QBs when they have the proper time to set.
What Mills has to get better with in pocket presence—feeling and sliding away from pressure to buy those extra 2-4 seconds of time to hit receivers when the defense breaks down. It's not enough for Mills to just have NFL arm talent, which should be apparent to all. He must be able to improvise and avoid costly mistakes when the pocket is less than ideal. I believe this is a primary reason why Mills looks good some drives and awful the next—he's too dependent on a clean pocket for success and the Texans OL isn't very strong. They were horrible this past game, in fact.
So one of my biggest watches until the end of the season is how Mills improves his pocket presence and improvisation when it breaks down. Will he continue to be a dumpster fire when pressured, or can he still make plays? Because generally I like what I see when the OL holds up and his arm talent is there. His ability to improve pocket presence will determine whether he's a starting QB in this league or a backup.
At the very least, he'll be a Tier-1 NFL backup IMO. Haven't given up on Mills as a franchise QB either because of excellent arm talent, but he's got to have better pocket awareness, situational awareness improviso. Season not even 1/4 through.
Yes.
Plus, he's only started 27 or so games in college and the NFL. Gotta give him time to learn. His regression bothers me though.
ben.aires.smith
Rookie
100% also why I remain optimistic - still a relative lack of experience. If he doesn't clean up soon though this will become less of an excuse.
Regarding his regression, I don't see that much regression TBH. Passer rating through 4 games is 80.4 vs. 88.8 last year. The drop can easily be explained by more opposition tape on Mills and catering defenses to counter his strengths. He didn't get any new weapons last year except for Pearce, and his success has only been recent. New offense and OC as well could lead to some slippage. I think he's mostly the same guy but disappointing he hasn't taken that next step many were hoping for. Not yet anyway (refer to post #1)
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
My 2 cents, is he's swinging between overcooking throws and sailing them, and then he kind of shot puts the ball and it just flops out slow and loose.
I feel like both issues are mental, not mechanical or physical.
I feel like both issues are mental, not mechanical or physical.
I dunno but doesn't that sound like primarily as issue of confidance since he now has some level of experience ?
First, welcome. Glad you found us.
While I think you may be overstating Mills positives a tad, you're dead on regarding his negatives. Can't escape pressure. Can't improvise. Can't or won't extend drives with his legs. That worked in the past. If you had the football acumen of a HOF QB.
I don't think what Davis Mills is missing can be coached up. You have it or you don't. The more Mills plays, the more this will be confirmed. That's what we have to look forward to in 2022. Hopefully, the Texans do a better job of QB hunting in the 2023 offseason.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Split tackles out.. I said "haven't seen that before.." tackles move back in and ..nothing different. At least I woke my buddy up " what happened. What happened." Nothing go back to sleep.
Rich Schmidt
Myopicone
Mills looks better in up tempo, more doing, less thinking. I wonder if Lovie stops Pep from doing that until needed as he likes his TOP and ball control stuff to protect the defense. Anyway, since the season is a loss, would like to see more experimenting with up tempo, especially at home with less noise
badboy
Hall of Fame
badboy
Hall of Fame
I know this isn't popular but Mills has this season to improve significantly and not just last 5 games. I don't care how many college games or NFL games he has played in. I don't care what his running back or wide receivers or offensive line Look like. He needs to show that he can be an NFL starter or I want to go with somebody else. There are things he can do despite those other average NFL players to show he can be the guy for more than one series in 4 quarters. If he hasn't, go with one of top 3 in draft. If that QB cannot be coached up in one year to be equal to Mills level currently try another QB in 2024. Out of Young, Stroud and Levis 2023 and Quin Ewers or Caleb Williams in 2024 we can get a QB at least as good as Mills. If not our coaching needs replacement.
Tired of making excuses.
Tired of making excuses.
ben.aires.smith
Rookie
Thank you Sir, glad to be here. I joined because I find the quality of dialogue here superior to, say, YouTube comments which are mostly reactionary and useless and lack interaction. Hope I can contribute meaningfully to the discourse.
While I think your second point is probably true to a large degree, there's history to back up how strictly pocket passers come move from high average or good to elite with time. For example, Tom Brady didn't post a 90 QB rating or higher until his 4th year as a starter, although he was clutch and won a lot of games in the first three years. Slightly different game in the early 2000's but the point is Brady kept limiting his mistakes and getting better until he basically became the GOAT. And it wasn't his arm talent or athletic ability that got him there. It was superior pocket presence, accuracy and ability to diagnose plays and make adjustment. He improved himself materially over time.
Drew Brees is probably a better example. Brees was awful in his first 2 years as starter and although became a Pro Bowler in Year 3, regressed the following season and was replaced in favor of the FOs chosen franchise QB, Phillip Rivers. We know how that story ended in New Orleans so no further commentary needed... The point is, it took Brees 2 full season of pitiful football before he started to 'get it' and learn how to truly face pocket pressure and deliver the football consistently. Brees wasn't 'you either have it or you don't' situation.
So in these condensed timelines, hopefully Mills can improve to the point where he can buy another year. I don't think I overstated him arm talent, because you don't have the best passer rating in ALL OF FOOTBALL for passes over 20 yards last season by luck with a subpar receiving core. Not how it works. Arm talent is high shelf. Just look at the tape... But if he doesn't have enough pocket presence to deliver UNDER PRESSURE, it won't matter for him. That;s the difference between starters and backups. My 2c.
Thanks again Sir
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
Mills has occasionally shown the skills necessary to be a good starting QB in the NFL. Hot and cold is his issue. Whether that's on him, the receivers, the oline or the OC, it doesn't matter. Until he shows he can get past this inconsistency he'll end up a backup QB for his NFL career. But at least he'd be a good backup QB, well worth the 3rd round pick.
Have you noticed how when a current young player struggles, they're compared to a HOFer that struggled early in their career? Not any of the 200 other guys that also struggled early, and never did anything special later? BTW, passing numbers have gradually risen over the past 20 seasons. An 88 passer rating now will get you ranked in the lower third of the league. In the early 2000's, it would put you in the top 10. Which is where Brady was ranked every year during his 1st 3 years in the league.
You can get it by small sample sizes. For 2021, Mills was 25th in yards per attempt, 28th in yards per completion. This season it's pretty much the same, 26th & 23rd, respectively. No one is worried about Davis Mills beating them downfield. Not saying a QB has to have an elite arm to be successful. Just that Mills hasn't got one. Look at last Sunday's opponent, Justin Herbert. Throwing bullets off platform. That's what an elite arm looks like.
ben.aires.smith
Rookie
Obviously, my intention wasn't to compare Mills or possible future upside to HOF level of talent. It was strictly a high-profile example, that people can relate to, of a QB that struggled early but turned it around through experience and repetition. In Year 2, Brees went 2-9 with a 67.5 QB rating (11 TD/15 INT) on a bad SD ballclub. It can and does happen.
Secondly, small sample size or not, a QB lacking arm talent with subpar receivers (including low YAC ability) do not pull that off, full stop. This wasn't 3 or 4 games where Mills barely qualified. It was a solid 13 games sample size including 11 starts. His tape corroborates the ability to place the ball, throw with velocity, layer, spin rate - pretty much everything you ant to see in a pocket QB from the ability to make all the throws. And that's why he's the starter this year, strictly because of his arm talent and warrants further evaluation. It sure isn't his ability to scramble for yardage as a hybrid QB.
Lastly, did you see the difference in pockets between San Diego and Houston?? Herbert was sacked once and hit twice; Mills was sacked 4 times and hit another 10 times. Herbert had whatever he wanted, all game. And that included receivers that were completely wide open and dump-off in the flat that went for 20+ yard scores. Pretty sure Mills stats would have had been similar had he had the same zero pressure opportunities against a sieve of a defense. As it were Mills was around 100 QB rating until that last play INT, which again, was fully pressurized forcing the miracle heave.
Not making excuses here. At some point, Mills has to improve and deliver bottom line results or he'll be out as starter. It may or may not happen. Just saying, there's a ton of context into why he hasn't really improved this season. If Mills rails, it won;t be because he can't throw the ball at a high level - it will be the other intangibles. Clock is ticking...
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Texansballer74
The Marine
Hey Mills how are you really doing? We need you to get better ASAP. Lol
Welcome to the board
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Of course not, that’s ridiculous. Are you happy with the play designs or play calling?
As for yards per attempt, could that be a result of how Mills is being coached or the play calling? After the game a reporter asked Mills about the long pass to Nico and Mills response was “We run that play in practice all the time but its only been called in a game twice”. Additionally, I don remember Mills being captain check down last season. That’s why I’m wondering if he’s being coached differently.
With regard to throwing bullets off platform, there’s like 5 or 6 QBs in the league that can do that with any consistency. There have also been a bunch of elite, super bowl winning QBs that can’t do that either, Brees, Manning, Brady, Warner, Montana, ect
There are different styles of QBs and for Mills to be successful he’s got to win from the pocket ala Brees, Brady, Warner. I don’t know what he’ll become, but just because he doesn’t have Herbert, Mahomes or Allen’s arm doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a shot
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Sure wouldn't mind landing both HC- Lincoln Riley and his QB- Caleb Williams in 2024.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
Davis Mills, Baker Mayfield, Mitch Trubisky, and Justin Fields. Seems like he is in the right company on that list.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I think Pep has been coaching him to hang in the pocket a little too long…trying to calm his feet down….thats the only way i can explain why he has refused to move at times….even when he can escape. Every time he begins to move around in the pocket, he makes great plays. Its only when he’s acting as a statue that he stinks. He’s not comfy when he’s playing like that…& i can’t say that i blame him with the protection he’s had at times, but you gotta just let the kid make plays..can’t coach him to play a particular way.
I agree, a QB does not have to have a huge arm to be successful. And I said so. I was just disagreeing with the notion that Mills actually has that type of arm.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Even when the perfect play is called for a big play, he doesn't execute it. You remember how Savage sat in the sytem for 3 years, came out the gate and was terrible and then they brought in Watson and it looked 1000 times better? You remeber how Tyrod looked in Cleveland as the starter then he got hurt and Baker came in ? Same thing in with the Chargers. Smith to Mahomes. Flacco to Jackson. Even if you had a journeyman playing qb, they would make those open throws Mills is missing. Even the most immobile guys could at least escape the pocket when its crumbling while Mills just sits there and takes a sack. Mobility doesn't mean run 1st, we've seen Mahomes scramble and get 1st downs. Mills is not good enough from the pocket to be a statue. Better qb play and this team would be in 1st place, not last. Simple as that even with the liabilities on the squad.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Don't necessarily agree that that's the way Mills has to play...At the very least the rigid definition of "winning from the pocket" has evolved from the Montana/Brady style where guys moved about the pocket with a subtle move here or there. Plus those guys were true statues...They weren't running away from anyone. Mills is a bit better athlete than all those guys you named & he can move when he needs to...he just doesn't for whatever reason.
I think the days of winning from the pocket in the traditional sense are gone mostly b/c defenses have evolved to understand how to strategically force a qb out. These days, the best qb's aren't guys who do it like that anyway..they're guys who can buy enough time in and around the pocket & LOS to be able to get the ball downfield to their playmakers...Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Jackson and i guess you can include Murray in there as well.......Or they're guys who get the ball out quickly & are super accurate..Which is basically just Rodgers...but even he can move around and buy time when he needs to.
Mills for whatever reason doesn't move too much........until we're in desperation mode and need to score to stay in the game.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
I've said this before and I will say it again, Mills doesn't have any special qualities. Whether its the arm,brain, or legs, he's just average imo. If they had true qb competition with a reclamation project, he would've lost. I watched the 7 rd pick in Gardner Minshew come in the game in Jacksonville and play better than Mills have these last 2 years and we don't see anyone around the nfl saying Minshew is the answer anywhere.
Is it because the QB and receivers are in a new offense? They had the entire offseason to install. Maybe that's not enough? Same players, without the same results from the end of 2021.
Does that predict a possible silver lining as the season goes along? Davis was really bad at the start of 2021 (as one would expect). Then, got much better at the end of the season. Became more confident in what he was doing and where his options were. Maybe that happens again in 2022? Right now, he's lost when blitzed. And when Mills is not blitzed, he hurries himself unnecessarily. Game experience and film study on what defenses are trying to do to the offense could be the recipe.
Just throwing out stuff. That poised rookie QB from 2021 is nowhere to be found in 2022.