Breaking News: Vick Indicted

[Hervoyel]

Dogfighting is as cultural to the south as holding slaves. This isn't "culture". This is an illegal activity. It's sad that people line up to throw out excuses for their favorite players even when their activities are repulsive.

I think it's a fine line (very much splitting hairs here) but in the end I think this is "cultural". I think it's just hard for a lot of people to go ahead and say that some things that are "cultural" need to go out with the trash. It's not popular but it's true. There's a reason why some cultures need to go and not every culture is equal or has equal merit. Sometimes it's time for some cultural activities to die.

Saying something is part of "our" culture doesn't mean it gets a free pass or we should all look the other way. At least it shouldn't. The people throwing that up as a defense for this kind of thing need to learn that.

 

[Hervoyel]

Pit bulls as a breed are so inbred that they are dangerous to be around for anyone. They will turn on you I don't care if they've been a beloved family pet for many years. They should be banned from city and urban dwellings all together. Anyone owning one should be held to account for any violence done by their dogs. Frankly it wouldn't bother me if they were all humanely euthanised and done away with entirely.Hardly a week goes by that we don't hear some horror story involving a Pit Bull and a small child or senior citizen. Let the hip hop nation find a new mascot, these dogs need to be outlawed.

Minor point, the "inbreeding" isn't the problem. Inbreeding to different degrees is very common in most breeds. In fact it's used sparingly at specific moments to "lock in" characteristics that breeders want.

The problem is that with Put Bulls (and they are not a breed because they do not "breed true") the predominant traits that they are bred for are an aggressive fighting temperament and physical strength. That's it. The reason they don't breed true is that physical appearance is secondary or irrelevant to most breeders. From the very beginning the American Pit Bull was intended to be a fighting dog made from the best fighting dogs of the time.

The reason they're so unpredictable is that regardless of who you got your Pit Bull from or how gentle your Pit Bull is there are countless aggressive and honestly unstable dogs "behind it" in it's pedigree. Most people just don't seem to understand that it can go off eventually and if it does then all the petting and dog treats and love in the world isn't going to make any difference. You, or your child, or somebody who just happens to be in the wrong place that day is going to get mauled.

But the inbreeding isn't the real cause. Stupid breeders over inbreeding heavily will give the "breed" health problems over time but that's about it. Everything else in your post nailed it though..

 

[Second Honeymoon]

Pit Bulls suck
Michael Vick sucks
Rationalizing criminal behavior and blaming it on someone's culture or racial makeup sucks
Joe Horn's comment about wanting his kids to grow up to be like Michael Vick sucks
Vick playing in the NFL this season would suck

Texans Rule

 

[Red_Zone]

Minor point, the "inbreeding" isn't the problem. Inbreeding to different degrees is very common in most breeds. In fact it's used sparingly at specific moments to "lock in" characteristics that breeders want.

The problem is that with Put Bulls (and they are not a breed because they do not "breed true") the predominant traits that they are bred for are an aggressive fighting temperament and physical strength. That's it. The reason they don't breed true is that physical appearance is secondary or irrelevant to most breeders. From the very beginning the American Pit Bull was intended to be a fighting dog made from the best fighting dogs of the time.

The reason they're so unpredictable is that regardless of who you got your Pit Bull from or how gentle your Pit Bull is there are countless aggressive and honestly unstable dogs "behind it" in it's pedigree. Most people just don't seem to understand that it can go off eventually and if it does then all the petting and dog treats and love in the world isn't going to make any difference. You, or your child, or somebody who just happens to be in the wrong place that day is going to get mauled.

But the inbreeding isn't the real cause. Stupid breeders over inbreeding heavily will give the "breed" health problems over time but that's about it. Everything else in your post nailed it though..

Well, I've heard "Breeding experts" on both sides of the issue. Some say basicly what you are saying and I've heard others explain it differently. Not being a "Breeding expert" myself or even all that informed I will bow to your expertise. The bottom line seems to be the same though and those "evil genes" are there like a time bomb waiting to go off. Maybe it depends on the definition of what "inbreeding" means I don't know. But whatever, the dogs are dangerous to have an to be around because of their unpredictable nature.

Thanks for you comments and the explanation though.

 

[real]

Inbreeding is breeding two dogs that are related in some way.

 

[Red_Zone]

Inbreeding is breeding two dogs that are related in some way.

Yeah, that much I knew, but from what I've heard before, Pit bulls are bred many times brother and sister and 1st cousins whereas as Herv points out many breeds are inbred to some degree. So maybe there should be some degree designation of inbreeding. I can see breeding 2nd and 3rd cousins for instance to get certain traits but brother and sister seems a little extreme.

As I said I'm no breeding expert, not even knowledgeable on the subject but I know I've heard over and over for years many people talk about the inbreeding of Pits as being particularly a problem. Common sense would indicate to me that it would be a problem but herv says it's not so since he seems to know more on the subject than I I'll go with that till I get more info. It really doesn't matter where these dogs get their "mean" Gene and unpredictability traits, the fact is they are there and need to be dealt with.

 

[real]

Yeah, that much I knew, but from what I've heard before, Pit bulls are bred many times brother and sister and 1st cousins whereas as Herv points out many breeds are inbred to some degree. So maybe there should be some degree designation of inbreeding. I can see breeding 2nd and 3rd cousins for instance to get certain traits but brother and sister seems a little extreme.

As I said I'm no breeding expert, not even knowledgeable on the subject but I know I've heard over and over for years many people talk about the inbreeding of Pits as being particularly a problem. Common sense would indicate to me that it would be a problem but herv says it's not so since he seems to know more on the subject than I I'll go with that till I get more info. It really doesn't matter where these dogs get their "mean" Gene and unpredictability traits, the fact is they are there and need to be dealt with.

Not an expert, but I know a little bit. Inbreeding isn't what causes pitts to be agressive. It's because that's what they've been long since bred to do. That mean streak is bred in them much like it's bred within a cocker spaniel to be docile. It's called there temperment. All dogs have 'em. If you are ever looking into getting a dog and you do in depth research about the different breeds, you'll see that most have a certain tempermennt bred within them.

As far as inbreeding, every dog breed is victim to that in some form or fashion. That's when you get into health problems that some breed types are more suseptible to. Like some are prone to hip dysplasia; some are prone to being deaf; some are prone to sight problems...ect...

That's why a lot of pure bred dogs end up mixing with some kind of family member because by trying to select certain traits you limit your selection; as where a lot of muts don't tend to have genectic problems...

Atleast that's my understanding....

 

[Hervoyel]

Breeding as close as you mention (brother and sister or for instance father daughter) is something that's not done often by breeders that I am familiar with. It is done but only to lock in a type that you want to keep. The next step is to breed out in the next generation and get a dog (or *****) to cross with yours that is not closely related. Because you've bred in tightly on the preceeding generation the pups from this next breeding should strongly represent the physical type of the line you just inbred. It confuses me sometimes but my wife understands it quite well. She's been breeding dogs for showing purposes for almost her entire life.

I'm sure there are nice, dedicated lovers of the "breed" (The AKC does not recognize the American Pit Bull as an official breed, nor does any reputable kennel club) who are trying to breed the ones with good temperament to try and fix them. What I was getting at is that behind these dogs, far back in their lines they were only bred for the traits I mentioned. No matter where they come from they have generations of ancestors bred for traits nobody in their right mind would want in a pet. I've talked to people who defend them and swear they've had Pits for decades without a problem. I don't get upset that this shoots a hole in my theory. I'm glad they've been lucky. I don't think they should count on being lucky forever though.

 

[cuppacoffee]

How could a person take live crawfish, and first throw salt of all things on them, and after then kick from the burns, add insult to injury by throwing them in a pot of boiling water with more hot seasoning. Oh, yea, if the tails don't curl, they aren't fit to eat. After all of that, people gather and celebrate as they peel the tail and suck the head. WOW! Pass the bucket!

I am so ashamed........

Somebody pass the hot sauce.

 

[Red_Zone]

Breeding as close as you mention (brother and sister or for instance father daughter) is something that's not done often by breeders that I am familiar with. It is done but only to lock in a type that you want to keep.

Like Vicious blood thirsty killer? LOL

I'm sure there are nice, dedicated lovers of the "breed" (The AKC does not recognize the American Pit Bull as an official breed, nor does any reputable kennel club) who are trying to breed the ones with good temperament to try and fix them. What I was getting at is that behind these dogs, far back in their lines they were only bred for the traits I mentioned. No matter where they come from they have generations of ancestors bred for traits nobody in their right mind would want in a pet. I've talked to people who defend them and swear they've had Pits for decades without a problem. I don't get upset that this shoots a hole in my theory. I'm glad they've been lucky. I don't think they should count on being lucky forever though.

Amen. And you know I don't have a problem with someone having a dog they want like that, but having one around kids and old people is just insane. If you (the "general you" not you herv) want to risk your life aroud a pit bull I think you're insane, but if you risk the lives of kids and neighbors and the elderly and one of them is mamed or killed by your dog you should go to prison for life.

 

[awtysst]

Like Vicious blood thirsty killer? LOL




Amen. And you know I don't have a problem with someone having a dog they want like that, but having one around kids and old people is just insane. If you (the "general you" not you herv) want to risk your life aroud a pit bull I think you're insane, but if you risk the lives of kids and neighbors and the elderly and one of them is mamed or killed by your dog you should go to prison for life.

You know its interesting. I used to live in Chicago and I had abuddy of mine that had a pit-poddle mix. She was an absolute sweethear around humans but couldnt stand other dogs and cats.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

You know its interesting. I used to live in Chicago and I had abuddy of mine that had a pit-poddle mix. She was an absolute sweethear around humans but couldnt stand other dogs and cats.

I have a friend who runs an adoption program to save pitbulls and who only "adopts" 3-legged pits.

She loves them and says that they're frequently very sweet dogs as long as they haven't been trained to be nasty.

 

[Red_Zone]

You know its interesting. I used to live in Chicago and I had abuddy of mine that had a pit-poddle mix. She was an absolute sweethear around humans but couldnt stand other dogs and cats.

Yeah I heard that Pidoodles eat German Shepards for breakfast.

 

[Red_Zone]

She loves them and says that they're frequently very sweet dogs as long as they haven't been trained to be nasty.

That's what they always say, right up to the time they grab you by the throat and won't let go.

 

[nunusguy]

Calssifying any animal based on breed is not right. You just put all pit-bulls into one lump some.

I dunno, but would that be like dog-profiling ?
Dang, maybe the ACLU will step up and take on this blatant act of discrimination in the name of animal-rights.

 

[real]

I don't think they should count on being lucky forever though.

Like you said, it's based on there temperment. You can tell what a dogs temperment is going to be pretty early on. I think the best time is right after they've been weened. Dominant puppies grow into dominant adults. Skiddish puppies grow into skiddish adults. A little oversimplified, but hey...

There are pitts that have been bred to have good temperments...Then you have pitts like the ones Vick had that were bred to have nasty teperments.

That's why if you get one you should know the breeder and check references. Most of these pitts that attack weren't purchased from a good breeder with a quality lineage of dogs.

 

[Hervoyel]

Like you said, it's based on there temperment. You can tell what a dogs temperment is going to be pretty early on. I think the best time is right after they've been weened. Dominant puppies grow into dominant adults. Skiddish puppies grow into skiddish adults. A little oversimplified, but hey...

There are pitts that have been bred to have good temperments...Then you have pitts like the ones Vick had that were bred to have nasty teperments.

That's why if you get one you should know the breeder and check references. Most of these pitts that attack weren't purchased from a good breeder with a quality lineage of dogs.

Somebody trying to breed for good temperament in Pit Bulls has a lot of work cut out for them. I wish them luck and hope that luck never fails because that's what they're really banking on, luck.

There are Pits that have been bred to have good temperaments. Like I said before the people who are doing that started from the same stock that everyone else had. The very beginning of the breed is based on nothing but fighting dogs. Eventually that can and frequently does come back out. Often at the worst possible time.

I've talked this subject to death. If the allegations are true then Ron Mexico needs to spend the next few years behind bars along with this less famous accomplices. If the allegations are true then Ron Mexico is a monster.

 

[Texan_Bill]

If there was a manual describing ideal Pit Bull temperament, it would probably read something like this: "The Pit Bull is goofily friendly towards people--family, friends, and strangers alike. Known for its sound character, strong nerve, and great intelligence, the breed makes an ideal companion for households with children, while remaining strong and vigilent enough to protect its loved ones if need be. It is never necessary to embark on guard or attack training with this breed, as they are naturally attuned to their environment and intuitive about real threats. Although never aggressive towards people without real need, the Pit Bull is dog-aggressive, to varying degrees.

Generally the breed is people friendly - and dog aggressive.

 

[Mr teX]

Generally the breed is people friendly - and dog aggressive.

It's been my experience that dogs are for the most part unpredictable period.

Aside from the many times i was running for my life on my morning commute to elementary & middle school & family pets biting everyone in the family except for my mother, the dogs i've come in contact with have made it hard for me to really feel anything for any animal period, much less a pit bull.

Chief among those incidents........

We had a chow as a family dog when i was younger (10 yr old) We treated that dog like he was part of the family & had had him since he was a pup. One day out of the blue he attacked one of our neigbors kids. Although he was every bit friendly & playful with us, that incident shook me a little.

We were given an ultimatum to either have the dog put down or they were going to sue us. We ended up having him put down.

 

[real]

Generally the breed is people friendly - and dog aggressive.

That's been my experience as well.

 

[Texan_Bill]

It's been my experience that dogs are for the most part unpredictable period.

Aside from the many times i was running for my life on my morning commute to elementary & middle school & family pets biting everyone in the family except for my mother, the dogs i've come in contact with have made it hard for me to really feel anything for any animal period, much less a pit bull.

Chief among those incidents........

We had a chow as a family dog when i was younger (10 yr old) We treated that dog like he was part of the family & had had him since he was a pup. One day out of the blue he attacked one of our neigbors kids. Although he was every bit friendly & playful with us, that incident shook me a little.

We were given an ultimatum to either have the dog put down or they were going to sue us. We ended up having him put down.

Unfortunately, your biggest influence on dogs comes from your experience with Chows...

Chows 'are' notoriously known for doing their own thing. They are also known for being suspicious of people and very territorial and simply do whatever suits them. It does not matter how well you treat a chow, their temparment is more like a cat's in the sense that pleasing their master is not on the top of their list....

But Pitts, (and Rotts for that matter) have always been mislabeled as being aggressive towards people. They are not. They are people friendly.

 

[Double Barrel]

It's been my experience that dogs are for the most part unpredictable period.

Do yourself a huge favor and watch several episodes of Cesar Millan's "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic Channel. Seriously, it would greatly help you with your fear and you would obtain an understanding of dogs deeper than you probably ever realized possible. (Most unpredictable dogs are that way because of their owners.)

 

[Khari]

Do yourself a huge favor and watch several episodes of Cesar Millan's "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic Channel. Seriously, it would greatly help you with your fear and you would obtain an understanding of dogs deeper than you probably ever realized possible. (Most unpredictable dogs are that way because of their owners.)

Daddy!.....I'm not calling you daddy...that's one of cesar's dogs

 

[hobie]

I know a few people, one who has a Pit and one with a Chow, both are well behaved, trained and playful. I never have seen any aggression in either animal. Having said that, I am not around all the time to know if those animals have bad days or not. I mean any living creature, be it man, animal, bug has the ability to go off unexpected. Dogs bite, thats what they do. Some are provoked but that is never told in the story, just that they attacked. Pull a tail of just about any dog and they will go at ya.

Humans snap at times as well, even the ones you would never expect. Countless killings from someone, and then thier family and friends say they never would have imagined that from him..

Now I am not trying to link those two, but dogs are animals, and ALL have the instinct to go off. Some dogs are breed that way, but family pets can snap too. My dog bit me one time, when she was somewhat young, I guess to try and establish her ground. I beat her for all of 10 seconds when I got her inside, and she has never bit me since. She will be 14 next week.

Pits and Chows are the same as German Shepards and Labs or whatever else, provoke them, take your chances, but to link all Pits or Chows as aggresive dogs, well I just cannot buy it. It all starts with the owners....

 

[Specnatz]

Unfortunately, your biggest influence on dogs comes from your experience with Chows...

Chows 'are' notoriously known for doing their own thing. They are also known for being suspicious of people and very territorial and simply do whatever suits them. It does not matter how well you treat a chow, their temparment is more like a cat's in the sense that pleasing their master is not on the top of their list....

But Pitts, (and Rotts for that matter) have always been mislabeled as being aggressive towards people. They are not. They are people friendly.

what gets me is that like I said in another thread or earlier in this one.

20 years ago German Sheppards were thought to be vicious killers that needed to be put down. Gee now they are police dogs and used a lot as seeing eye dogs. Opps got that one wrong.

Dobbermans were thought to be killers and needed to be wiped out. There are some apt complexes that allow big dogs but say it has to be nonaggressive. Germansheppards, pits rotts, and dalmations are listed on the no list. (not dobbermans)

Rotts and pitts are the in dogs as far as people wanting to kill them because they say they are vicious. In 20 years it will be another breed.

Fine put restrictions on them but to kill an entire breed just because you think they can't be trained or worked with sounds pretty ignorant to me, something like the colonist said about Indians 300 years ago.

 

[Mr teX]

Do yourself a huge favor and watch several episodes of Cesar Millan's "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic Channel. Seriously, it would greatly help you with your fear and you would obtain an understanding of dogs deeper than you probably ever realized possible. (Most unpredictable dogs are that way because of their owners.)

No need, i'm fairly comfortable with my view on dogs, even if you guys aren't. I'll never be able to fathom how people can spend ridiculous amounts of money to treat their dogs or any other animal as good as their offspring unless they depend on that animal for some sort of service for them to function rather normally in society, as in a seeing-eye dog.

To each their own.

On another note i found out that some lady left her dog like 20 million dollars when she died. I saw it in the guiness book store in SA. What the hell is a dog gonna do with 20 million?

 

[Specnatz]

No need, i'm fairly comfortable with my view on dogs, even if you guys aren't. I'll never be able to fathom how people can spend ridiculous amounts of money to treat their dogs or any other animal as good as their kids in some instances unless they depend on that animal for some sort of service for them to function rather normally in society, as in a seeing-eye dog.


To each their own.

Yes and you can not see how ayone can go hunting because there is a grocery store with in a few miles. So no one should bake their own cakes because there is a bakery in the grocery store, and just because you want a different type is no excuse to make your own.

I understand not wanting to do it yourself when it comes to hunting or caring for a pet, but to be so closed minded as to not even understand how someone can treat something they love with as much care as humanly possible. You need to open up your mind and broden your prospective on everything in life.

 

[Double Barrel]

No need, i'm fairly comfortable with my view on dogs, even if you guys aren't.

To be honest, and this is not meant in a disrespectful way, I read your comments as you are happy to be ignorant on the subject.

Whatever floats your boat, man. Knowledge is the key to enlightenment. I could honestly care less if you choose not to be educated about something, so my comfort level is just fine with your decision.

 

[Mr teX]

To be honest, and this is not meant in a disrespectful way, I read your comments as you are happy to be ignorant on the subject.

Whatever floats your boat, man. Knowledge is the key to enlightenment. I could honestly care less if you choose not to be educated about something, so my comfort level is just fine with your decision.

None was never taken man, even when you guys resorted to name calling. I wouldn't neccessarily call it being ignorant about the subject, i know there are other reasons why people hunt & i know that some good things come from hunting. But when it's broken down to it's key elements, people flock to forests to hunt deer b/c they enjoy killing it, Otherwise you wouldn't see people posing with their guns with 1 of their feet mounted on over the dead deer carcass & a big smile to boot. & in that aspect alone, i don't see the difference between the 2.

& spetnatz, i still love ya man, , but to answer you, for what other reason would you have to go hunt if that's not your way of life & have access to meat close by? Somehow i don't think butchers are taking pictures with a side of beef or people who work in slaughterhouses are gleefully smiling as the kill cows. baking a cake is harmless to animals so i don't see your point.

i don't know, i guess it's b/c i work in a very select healthcare field & encounter death fairly often, In many cases i'm the guy who has to turn someone off & it combined with my background with dogs has hardened me a bit.

let's just agree to disagree, cool?

 

[Porky]

My ***** nephew decided a few years ago, that the best way to make money was be a no good lazy bum, and breed pitbulls. I mean he already had the lazy part perfected, but wanted to add to his resume. So, he bought a young breeding pair, and rented a little place with lots of room.

Seeing as I don't visit this malcontent very often, I was like, whatever floats your boat. But, I did tell my parents I wasn't thrilled with it because there are already too many pits in the world.

He did breed them, and sold all of the pups but one for like 250 each I think. He decided to keep one of the pups, so he then had three.

Anyway - long story short. This ameoba man genius decides to take a job in San Antonio. What does he do with the dogs? He dumps all three at my parents house. To make matters worse, my parents live next to me.

To add insult to injury, my parents already had two dogs, one a rott mix with a mental defect who I hope never gets a gun, and the other a very good natured sweet mixed hound dog thingamabob.

My parents first told me it was a very temp arrangement, and they were going to figure out what to do with the pitts. To put the final salt in the wound, that was over 2 years ago, and my parents now love the dogs. They are now pitts biggest defenders. Before they got them, they didn't like them just like me.

Well, about 4 months ago, my sweet little Molly (the hound dog) was in the backyard, and the big male pitt and her got into an argument about a bone or something. Next thing we know, in a matter of a moment, the pitt attacked, and broke her leg, and chewed her up. They had to do surgery on Molly, and she has a pin in the leg, and limps around. She used to be this joyful bundle of energy. Now she is depressed and sleeps all day. It cost well over $1000 to set the pin.

So, do you think my parents got rid of the pitts? NO, of course not. It wasn't the pitts fault. Poor Molly just has to learn that the pitts rule, and not to antagonize them. I cannot talk any sense into my parents at all on this. When I or my wife go over to the house, we make them lock the pitts up. The one time they didn't, one came running at me growling and barking and carrying on. I was very scared, and dogs never scare me. After that, I call ahead, and tell them to lock the beasts up.

How can I talk any sense into my thick headed parents before a real disaster happens???

 

[Goldensilence]

what gets me is that like I said in another thread or earlier in this one.

20 years ago German Sheppards were thought to be vicious killers that needed to be put down. Gee now they are police dogs and used a lot as seeing eye dogs. Opps got that one wrong.

Dobbermans were thought to be killers and needed to be wiped out. There are some apt complexes that allow big dogs but say it has to be nonaggressive. Germansheppards, pits rotts, and dalmations are listed on the no list. (not dobbermans)

Rotts and pitts are the in dogs as far as people wanting to kill them because they say they are vicious. In 20 years it will be another breed.

Fine put restrictions on them but to kill an entire breed just because you think they can't be trained or worked with sounds pretty ignorant to me, something like the colonist said about Indians 300 years ago.

Sometimes perception is reality in matters such as this. Dobbermans and Sheppards got that label i think after use in squads during war.

I'm still trying to fathom the colonist vs natives angle though.

 

[Specnatz]

Well, about 4 months ago, my sweet little Molly (the hound dog) was in the backyard, and the big male pitt and her got into an argument about a bone or something. Next thing we know, in a matter of a moment, the pitt attacked, and broke her leg, and chewed her up. They had to do surgery on Molly, and she has a pin in the leg, and limps around. She used to be this joyful bundle of energy. Now she is depressed and sleeps all day. It cost well over $1000 to set the pin.

So, do you think my parents got rid of the pitts? NO, of course not. It wasn't the pitts fault. Poor Molly just has to learn that the pitts rule, and not to antagonize them. I cannot talk any sense into my parents at all on this. When I or my wife go over to the house, we make them lock the pitts up. The one time they didn't, one came running at me growling and barking and carrying on. I was very scared, and dogs never scare me. After that, I call ahead, and tell them to lock the beasts up.

How can I talk any sense into my thick headed parents before a real disaster happens???

I am sure this has never ever happened to another breed of dog in over 10,000 + years of dogs being around.

Sometimes perception is reality in matters such as this. Dobbermans and Sheppards got that label i think after use in squads during war.

I'm still trying to fathom the colonist vs natives angle though.

It is how peoples perception changes over time. I used something that was extremely over the top to make a point.

 

[Vinny]

20 years ago German Sheppards were thought to be vicious killers that needed to be put down. Gee now they are police dogs and used a lot as seeing eye dogs. Opps got that one wrong.

dude...how old are you anyway? This seems like a comment a young guy would say. I thought you were an older guy. 20 years ago most people thought of German Sheppards as the same as they do now. They were used as police dogs when I was in school....over 20 years ago.

 

[ccdude730]

some vick news...

Falcons | Team expected to discipline Vick soon
Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:34:02 -0700

Peter King, of CNNSI.com, reports the National Football League has told Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank that the disciplinary ball is in his court regarding QB Michael Vick. Blank intends to discipline Vick in some way by Tuesday, July 24. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell will have the right to add on to whatever punitive action Blank will take.

www.kffl.com

 

[Porky]

I am sure this has never ever happened to another breed of dog in over 10,000 + years of dogs being around.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at? I have had dogs my whole life. I was raised with dogs, including a 100+ lb German Shepard trained as a guard dog that could snap a human in two on voice command. I could put my entire head in that dogs mouth when I was little, and it would just lick me to death. To the person who said German Shephards used to be thought of like Pitts, you coudn't be more wrong. German Shephards would never hurt their master unless absouletly provoked or in self defense. They are one of the most loyal dogs on Earth. Now, if you happen to be the poor soul who breaks into a home with a 100lb trained Shephard, well good luck in heaven, because there won't be anything left but pieces.

Pitts and Rotts and Doberman's can and do turn on their owners. I have lived with literally dozens of dogs, and not one time has one of my dogs or my parents dogs injured another dog, ours or anyone else's. My Dad (who is 68 and owned dogs since being a young boy) said it's never happened as long as he has had dogs either. Yet, you think it is coincedence?

 

[Porky]

INSIGHTS FROM A FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR

Since the federal prosecutors handling the Vick case won't be conducting many (or any) Poindexter-style press briefings, the closest thing we'll ever get to the thought processes of the federal prosecutors in this case will be via the insights of a former federal prosecutor.

Attorney Marc Garber of The Garber Law Firm, with offices in Atlanta and Marietta, Georgia, worked for eight years as a federal prosecutor in New Jersey and Nevada. He agreed to provide on-the-record observations regarding the Vick case, based on Garber's experiences working up and trying federal criminal cases on behalf of the United States of America.

As an initial matter, Garber believes that the mere existence of an indictment is the product of extensive work by prosecutors to marshal evidence that puts Vick in the places where they allege that he was, doing the things he allegedly did. That evidence, Garber believes, goes beyond the four unnamed cooperating witnesses mentioned in the indictment.

"If I had Vick's case," he said, "the testimony of four cooperators would be enough to prompt a search, but not an indictment. To pull the trigger on an indictment, I'd need documentary evidence that corroborates what the cooperators said.

"I'd start with Vick's credit-card bills to see where he's buying things and when. I'd check airline tickets or other evidence of travel to see when he was in Virginia. I'd check cell phone information. I'd check emails. Whatever kind of documented communication or evidence of travel or location you can imagine, that's what I'd want.

"There's no way, if you're a federal prosecutor, you pull the trigger on this case without [extensive] documents that let you plot out a time-line -- in multiple colors on a huge board that sits in front of the jury as you bury Vick witness by witness and document by document -- putting him at the dog fights on his property."

It all makes a lot of sense. As we've previously explained, the feds aren't in this case to win an indictment and then lose a trial. They took on this fight because prosecutors believe that they have the proof to secure a conviction.

Interestingly, Garber thinks that the prosecution ultimately will focus less on the dog fighting and more on the gambling.

"This case is not so much about animal abuse, though that's the hook that gets the jury impassioned," Garber said. "This case from the Justice Department's perspective is about an illegal-gambling ring which, though the NFL remains silent on this point, is why Vick should be staring at an instant suspension."

Link

 

[Specnatz]

dude...how old are you anyway? This seems like a comment a young guy would say. I thought you were an older guy. 20 years ago most people thought of German Sheppards as the same as they do now. They were used as police dogs when I was in school....over 20 years ago.

I am 38 but I know growing up in the very early 70's some would say German Sheppards and Dobbermans were not good dogs to have as a family pet. They would turn on kids and kill them. I guess I should have said more like 30 years ago (damn I am getting old).

My point is that perceptions change all the time on a breed of dog, on people, on just about everything. A few people are advocating for the humane euthanization of pittbulls. That is if there is a humane way of making a breed of dog exstinct.

Yes porky I do think it is a quincidence. The two little gogs lived for so long together and then three more come in and tred on what they believe is their territory. It is possible for the little one to think he runs the house.

 

[Specnatz]

Since the federal prosecutors handling the Vick case won't be conducting many (or any) Poindexter-style press briefings, the closest thing we'll ever get to the thought processes of the federal prosecutors in this case will be via the insights of a former federal prosecutor.

I love this quote. It is good because they should not conduct business in the press.

 

[Koolaid Time]

All of the mentioned breeds are smart... but IMO.. this is the "Smartest Dog of All"...

 

[Koolaid Time]

I love this quote. It is good because they should not conduct business in the press.

That is the one thing I like about the about US Attorney's Office... with the exception of Enron and HealthSouth, (Big Exceptions) the Prosecutors keep a low media profile and save it all for the Courtroom.

I think they will keep Vick a low profile case as well considering the high liklihood of an Undercover Federal Agent penetrating the network. After the verdict they will talk to the media.

 

[Blazing Arrow]

The city of San Francisco has tried and is still trying to outlaw the bread completely. Not sure if anyone remembers the story of the mom who locked her son (~5 years old if memory serves correctly) in the basement. Well her pitbull was allowed to roam the house while the son was in the basement. Yes class act mother I know. Well I guess the son got the door open. You can basically imagine what happened. The lady is serving time now for child endangerment but the case got huge press. It was followed up about 2 months later with another child that was mauled nearly to death by a pitbull. Got to close to the fence and the dog got a hold of the boy and tried pulling him through a it.

 

[Porky]

I am 38 but I know growing up in the very early 70's some would say German Sheppards and Dobbermans were not good dogs to have as a family pet. They would turn on kids and kill them. I guess I should have said more like 30 years ago (damn I am getting old).

My point is that perceptions change all the time on a breed of dog, on people, on just about everything. A few people are advocating for the humane euthanization of pittbulls. That is if there is a humane way of making a breed of dog exstinct.

Yes porky I do think it is a quincidence. The two little gogs lived for so long together and then three more come in and tred on what they believe is their territory. It is possible for the little one to think he runs the house.

Dobermans yes. German Shepards no. Not gonna swear there was never an isolated incident of a Shepard killing a kid, but I think your memory is wrong. I am older than you, and remember no such talk about Shepards. In fact, as I already mentioned, loyalty is the Shephards biggest trait, and they vitrually never turn on one of their own pack. Now, if you are a member of another pack.....that's a different story, especially if you show agression toward the dog or family.

 

[Double Barrel]

I remember some of my grandparents generation having a problem with German Shepherds, but it was because of the war more than anything else. Old perceptions are hard to break, I suppose.

I've had Shepherds and loved them. I'd happily get another one when I'm ready for a dog in my life.

 

[DiapHer]

Also growing up in the 70's two German Shepard's lived down the street from us one attacked my brother mowing "our" yard biting him in the behind, they also bit the mailman and one evening when my father started the grill (no food was cooking) and I was outside sitting on the porch they both came running for me luckily I was close enough to the front door and made it in the house. After that I took a pen and crossed out the picture of a German Shepard in our World Book!!! Thankfully, they moved soon after that!!!

 

[Hervoyel]

German Shepards have not had a problem in my lifetime regarding breed perception. A lot of people grew up watching Nazis on TV walking around with German Shepards and they have been trained as guard dogs. This can result in cases where training has resulted in an aggressive dog that can't be controlled. It's rare. This is what Pit Bull supporters would have you believe is behind the problem with their dogs.

Dobermans gained a ton of popularity and interest when "The Omen" was released. Everyone who saw it remembered those evil dogs and guys who wanted a "tough dog" flocked to the breed. The are also a breed that is frequently trained as guard dogs and the same thing I said about German Shepards holds true with Dobermans. Dobermans are no longer considered to be the toughest dog on the block by the masses and haven't been for some time. It took Doberman breeders decades to undo the damage to their breed that that brief spurt of popularity did.

Now it's Rotts and Pits. They're not only wildly popular but in the case of the Pit Bull they're even tougher than the image most people think they're getting. I see a ton of wishful thinking and misinformation in this thread. I won't post again because IMO you either get it or you buy the excuses of the Pit Bull supporters. I'm not for euthanising an entire breed of dog. I'm for sterilizing an entire breed of dog and allowing it to die out for the betterment of the species. Dog breeds as we know them did not come about naturally. These breeds were created for specific purposes, appearance, and nature by man. We didn't always do the smartest thing when we created these breeds.

For example we have Bulldogs that can't give birth naturally anymore because of the extremes to which their breeders have taken them. They can't even stay afloat in a pool without help because their "breed standard" legs are too short to dog paddle. Lots of breeds would vanish if man stepped back and chose to no longer make things work. The Pit Bull is a type of dog whose days are over and who needs to be allowed to pass into history. It's purpose is illegal and immoral in todays world. It's time to let them go. There are plenty of perfectly suitable dogs in existence. We don't need to keep these ticking time-bomb remnants of a disgusting sport around any longer.

Spay, Neuter, and enforce and in no time you won't be reading about kids getting chewed up by these things. Of course if you don't mind the monthly story about somebody getting a couple of hundred stitches so long as you can have your sweet loving Pit Bull then nevermind. I hope you continue to enjoy the luck you've had so far.

 

[DiapHer]

German Shepards have not had a problem in my lifetime regarding breed perception. A lot of people grew up watching Nazis on TV walking around with German Shepards and they have been trained as guard dogs. This can result in cases where training has resulted in an aggressive dog that can't be controlled. It's rare. This is what Pit Bull supporters would have you believe is behind the problem with their dogs.

I just loved watching Hogan's Heroes!!

 

[Specnatz]

German Shepards have not had a problem in my lifetime regarding breed perception. A lot of people grew up watching Nazis on TV walking around with German Shepards and they have been trained as guard dogs. This can result in cases where training has resulted in an aggressive dog that can't be controlled. It's rare. This is what Pit Bull supporters would have you believe is behind the problem with their dogs.

Dobermans gained a ton of popularity and interest when "The Omen" was released. Everyone who saw it remembered those evil dogs and guys who wanted a "tough dog" flocked to the breed. The are also a breed that is frequently trained as guard dogs and the same thing I said about German Shepards holds true with Dobermans. Dobermans are no longer considered to be the toughest dog on the block by the masses and haven't been for some time. It took Doberman breeders decades to undo the damage to their breed that that brief spurt of popularity did.

Now it's Rotts and Pits. They're not only wildly popular but in the case of the Pit Bull they're even tougher than the image most people think they're getting. I see a ton of wishful thinking and misinformation in this thread. I won't post again because IMO you either get it or you buy the excuses of the Pit Bull supporters. I'm not for euthanising an entire breed of dog. I'm for sterilizing an entire breed of dog and allowing it to die out for the betterment of the species. Dog breeds as we know them did not come about naturally. These breeds were created for specific purposes, appearance, and nature by man. We didn't always do the smartest thing when we created these breeds.

For example we have Bulldogs that can't give birth naturally anymore because of the extremes to which their breeders have taken them. They can't even stay afloat in a pool without help because their "breed standard" legs are too short to dog paddle. Lots of breeds would vanish if man stepped back and chose to no longer make things work. The Pit Bull is a type of dog whose days are over and who needs to be allowed to pass into history. It's purpose is illegal and immoral in todays world. It's time to let them go. There are plenty of perfectly suitable dogs in existence. We don't need to keep these ticking time-bomb remnants of a disgusting sport around any longer.

Spay, Neuter, and enforce and in no time you won't be reading about kids getting chewed up by these things. Of course if you don't mind the monthly story about somebody getting a couple of hundred stitches so long as you can have your sweet loving Pit Bull then nevermind. I hope you continue to enjoy the luck you've had so far.

While I agre with a lot of what you said about how people have ruined certain breeds of dogs, and this does include pittbulls. If people would breed a dog correctly and not for fighting there would not be a problem with any breed. I am just not into saying extinguish any breed of dog, only reeducate the masses and to try and breed the dog correctly, because if you make it law to extinguish this breed those who have no morals will only introduce another breed that is a ticking time-bomb.

As far as German Sheppards go, this could be why my memory is as I have stated about those claiming it was a bad breed at one time. I can only go by what I was taught and or told about that particular breed.

 

[Double Barrel]

Dog breeds as we know them did not come about naturally. These breeds were created for specific purposes, appearance, and nature by man. We didn't always do the smartest thing when we created these breeds.

Exactly. People tend to forget that the history of different dog breeds is a history of human manipulation.

I know some folks who have wolves, and actually breed them. These can be very dangerous pets, and they handle them accordingly. There are many precautions that can be taken when the owners clearly recognize the nature of the animal and are responsible about ownership. The same attitude by pit bull owners should be taken if they want to be seen as accountable pet owners by the general public.

(The wolf owners that I know do not trust pit bulls...go figure.)

 

[Blazing Arrow]

I have a 120 lb "giant" Sheppard. He is pure bred with papers or what ever. Barring someone attacking me, my wife or my child the dog would piss himself in a real confrontation. Sheppard’s are not naturally aggressive creatures. Protective of their loved ones. If they are trained to be aggressive that is another thing.

He is strong enough to crush a door knob down to a flat metal pancake with his teeth. In 5 years of rough housing and just playing one time he nearly bit me (my own fault,; I was slapping him in the face and my hand went into his mouth). Once he realized what he had done he ran to the corner and pissed himself.

 

[Texan_Bill]

I have a 120 lb "giant" Sheppard. He is pure bred with papers or what ever. Barring someone attacking me, my wife or my child the dog would piss himself in a real confrontation. Sheppard’s are not naturally aggressive creatures. Protective of their loved ones. If they are trained to be aggressive that is another thing.

He is strong enough to crush a door knob down to a flat metal pancake with his teeth. In 5 years of rough housing and just playing one time he nearly bit me (my own fault,; I was slapping him in the face and my hand went into his mouth). Once he realized what he had done he ran to the corner and pissed himself.

He feared the wrath of the Arrow!!