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Babin is a Master

i wont lie i have been anti-babin but if you look at what i have said i think my opinion has lightened up, i have said that he will be good, i didnt say he should be replaced, i simply stated that I find standing around unacceptable.
 
once again misquoting, i didnt say ALL he does is stand, i said a FEW times. Its hard to have a discussion about someone when they have a hard time reading.
 
Ok, if he stood around FOR ONE PLAY OR A FEW TIMES I am pretty sure he would have been benched already.
 
Watch the tape, he stopped mid spin with his back to Byron. Go up a bit and you will see that others saw the same thing. You cant stop moving if the QB has the ball, that has been my point all along. even if you cant get by you still try to get closer to make a deflection. Call me a liar all you want but its something you can see in the film.
 
Yes a DE such as like in a 4-3 so you still have two tackles, with him and peek on the two ends (just like he does normally in the 3-4). That replaces one of the bigger lineman who arent as fast and allows peek, babin and Wong to rush the QB in an obvious pass situation. Doesnt seem too stupid of an idea
 
he may get up field too much, true, but if he had a couple of plays that sets up the spin move. What we need is peek to get more than one play so he can set up his moves, and we also need babin to try moving up field to set up his spin. And you cant say that peek would not be able to get some pressure on a QB. And you cant deny that they would be good to have out there all together putting some pressure
 
You dogged Babin on another one of your forums for using the spin move, now you say Peek should use it?
 
once again a misquote by you. i dogged babin using it on almost every pass rush. i never said he shouldnt use it. I said he needs to mix it up to set up the spin. If you noticed their tackle by later in teh game was sitting there waiting for the spin back inside and thats why it wasnt effective. and if you read what i just said before i said peek needs to use the spin because he goes straight up field too much. so it looks mostly like an equal criticism for the both of them, and i dont remember ever saying that they should both only use one move. once again i guess im ignorant for thinking people should try multiple moves, and call me crazy for thinking that there were things such as set up moves
 
I also believe that in practice they probably work on teaching hand movements to get off blockers, i am sure he has these moves and he should use them. He was a DE and i am sure he was good at them in college. He needs to use it.
 
Once again, it has been ineffective because its all he is using. maybe not a misQUOTE but a misinterpretation. I am jsut interested to see if you can honestly say that you disagree that he needs to mix up his moves?
 
No I don't think that, and I am sure if the coaches did, they would have him working on other moves.
 
you are saying that someone in the NFL can pass rush by doing one move? are you kidding me. once again, watch the tape he does a spin on 75% of his rushes. not even a stutter step outside or inside and break the other way.
 
If you are such an expert on the subject why are you not coaching on our defensive staff? This is my last post on this topic. IF OUR COACHES THOUGHT IT WAS A PROBLEM OR BABIN WAS A PROBLEM THEY WOULD HAVE BENCHED HIM OR CORRECTED THE PROBLEM BY NOW.
 
This isnt really a conversation we should bother with considering Babin not only a rookie but changing positions completely . Give the guy a season or maybe two before you say he's a complete bust or a wasted pick. He's gotten better as the season has progressed in both his containment assignments and in coverage not to mention in Sunday's game against the cats he did get good pressure on byron many times......
You cant really grade a player in his first season out of the draft most players take 2-3 years to get up to NFL speed . He's started from Day One.

Sometimes i wonder if you are watching the same game I am.




see ya in a couple seasons
 
once again, did not say on this post that he is a complete bust, i said he will be good. and once again i made an observation about one thing. its ridiculous trying to have an argument/discussion about one thing if no one has responded to the actual point of overuse of a move.
 
georgewashington said:
didnt run too well at him? they only ran 10 times. I bash him because there is no excuse for giving up on a pash rush. and if you watched he really didnt collapse the pocket that well, and yes i do say this every week because it happens every week. call me a babin hater or whatever else but as long as i see him giving up on plays before they are over there is not going to be any respect from me, no excuse to stopping during a play with your back to the ball that many times.
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And it was 10 times for like 21 yards. They didnt run much because they basically couldnt. You know what that means? Babin was good in run D. He will get a hang of rushing the QB just give him time. Whens the last time you were just able to run around a 6 and a half foot 300+ lb Offensive Tackle? You see giving up, I see him fighting his guts out.
 
Why should I take George Washington seriousely. Heck at well over 200 years old, you can't see, and you have senility. Why am I even responding. Go ask Ben for some bi-focals. Maybe you'll be able to see the plays better.

Now, as to the pertinent question, here is the answer. Peek cannot play the run. He can't contain on the outside, and cannot shed the blocker to make a tackle on the RB turning the corner. If you can't play the run, you can't play in a Caper's 3-4. Babin has held containment very well imo, especially for a rookie learning a new position. If you expected Babin to play like a well seasoned Keving Greene in his very first season learning a new position, then your expections need to get rearranged in your cerebial vortex. Go ask Adams or Madison what that means.
 
georgewashington said:
Im tired of all this Babin is improving talk. Did anyone watch him today, his pass rush is terrible. He got pressure twice, once Byron completed a 20 yard pass still, and the other time he wiffed and missed a sack. And if you watch the tackle even cheated by letting him get a step high because everytime he rolled back to the inside. And half of the spins he stopped halfway around and just stood there with his back to the ball. He made one good open field tackle, but most of the time he is just standing around. You cant really be improving much when you dont do anything. He is very over rated.
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Hes a Rookie and Hes not Terrell Suggs (That LB is going to be one of the BEST LOLB to ever play the game) But he is going to get better he is just getting a hang at LB and he is just try to adjust to the NFL play..
 
georgewashington said:
Stating someone doesnt know what they are talking about is a personal attack, by definition it is attacking them and their opinions.
Click to expand...

Man please. He didn't call you an *****, nor did anyone insult your religion, sexual persuassion, ethnicity, politics. Lighten up. I sure as hell think you are way off in your critisism, but that doesn't mean Babin or anyother player should be criticized. Babin is a project, an experiment if you will, but hasn't shown me that he'll be a bust. Patience grasshopper. Patience.
 
Andre_Johnson80 said:
Hes a Rookie and Hes not Terrell Suggs (That LB is going to be one of the BEST LOLB to ever play the game) But he is going to get better he is just getting a hang at LB and he is just try to adjust to the NFL play..
Click to expand...
You know Andre, I think that's the issue for some of us (me for sure). I remember reading so much about Suggs last year because we were real close
to taking him, atleast in the preliminary stages of the draft analysis. But as you probably recall, his workouts (particularly 40 times) were very disappointing and that was very instrumental in us passing on him. And then when he went to play for the Ravens, it turned out that he was the "real deal". And we have been so needing a steller pass rusher at OLB. And then we drafted Babin, and in a controversial style by
paying such a premium price to the Titans for him. Especially when many feel we could have patiently waited with our 2 round pick and found him on the board when our turn came around. I guess I figured he would be
the explosive, dominant edge rusher that Suggs turned out to be very early in his NFL career - and Jason is not that. I just gotta lower my expectations.
 
5 things I think about #93.

1. Sure open field tackler.

2. Nice containment.

3. Keeps a cool head. *cough* PEEK *cough*

4. Has a good motor, and gives 100%.

5. Is a rookie, and is bound to make mistakes. Give him a chance like we did with everyother rookie. Carr, Gaff, Dunta, and many others.

**********
The Texans are 4-3, and 2-0 in the AFC south! Holy Hell!!!
 
nunusguy said:
You know Andre, I think that's the issue for some of us (me for sure). I remember reading so much about Suggs last year because we were real close
to taking him, atleast in the preliminary stages of the draft analysis. But as you probably recall, his workouts (particularly 40 times) were very disappointing and that was very instrumental in us passing on him. And then when he went to play for the Ravens, it turned out that he was the "real deal". And we have been so needing a steller pass rusher at OLB. And then we drafted Babin, and in a controversial style by
paying such a premium price to the Titans for him. Especially when many feel we could have patiently waited with our 2 round pick and found him on the board when our turn came around. I guess I figured he would be
the explosive, dominant edge rusher that Suggs turned out to be very early in his NFL career - and Jason is not that. I just gotta lower my expectations.
Click to expand...

Thanks for seeing it like that man, But look who we got, the best WR taken in years from what I can see. AJ will continue to show us why we took him third in the draft.. Terrell suggs is awesome and they both would have done us great but I know we did the right thing in taking AJ.
 
I dont think he disagrees with taking AJ over Suggs, he is just saying that Babin was billed to be the next suggs coming off the edge and hasnt been
 
Andre_Johnson80 said:
Thanks for seeing it like that man, But look who we got, the best WR taken in years from what I can see. AJ will continue to show us why we took him third in the draft.. Terrell suggs is awesome and they both would have done us great but I know we did the right thing in taking AJ.
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Absolutely ! You know Andre, so much of the exchanges on this board surrounding Babin have been negative, we're gonna have to stop being so congenial or they might throw us off the board for being out of step with the crowd. But yea, Jason Babin is no Terrell Suggs. But as good as Suggs is and ultimately may end up being, I bet AJ beats him to the HOF ! I think our guy could be that great ! We got the best football player in the 2003 NFL college draft ! End of story.
 
nunusguy said:
Especially when many feel we could have patiently waited with our 2 round pick and found him on the board when our turn came around. I guess I figured he would be
the explosive, dominant edge rusher that Suggs turned out to be very early in his NFL career - and Jason is not that. I just gotta lower my expectations.
Click to expand...



Babin was not going to be on the board in the second round. The Patriots were going to take him if he was available at #32. In Suggs' rookie season, the Ravens used him as a situational pass rusher because he couldn't defend the run. Now after 1 season, Suggs is playing like a complete OLB. Babin, in his rookie season, plays the run MUCH better than Suggs did in his. Let's give Babin at least a full season before we start judging him. Who knows, maybe Babin's pass rush will improve as much as Suggs did defending the run.
 
georgewashington said:
I dont think he disagrees with taking AJ over Suggs, he is just saying that Babin was billed to be the next suggs coming off the edge and hasnt been
Click to expand...
If that is the case he would have been put on the weak side. They put Babin on the strong side because of his run support and all-around game. You put your best pass rusher on the weak side/blind side. We haven't allowed a TD in quite a few quarters now and held the Jags down like no one has. If he was a big liability he would be exploited like Matt Stephens was. Trust me, if you are a weak link in the NFL, coordinators will exploit you.
 
Dear George

Babin is a monster get of his jock
Peeks your type why dont ya **** his ***k
I'm a democrat along with you
but babin can do things that peek cant do
I know peek can rush tha QB
but when it comes to the rush its babin you'll see
I like babin along with most
peek looks flatter than jelly on toast
 
nunusguy said:
. Especially when many feel we could have patiently waited with our 2 round pick and found him on the board when our turn came around.
Click to expand...

Goose Gosslin, the man who has had the best reorcd in projecting the draft the last five years had Babin going aroung 25 to 30, if I remember correctly. So it's really safe to say that not only would he not have been there for us in the second round, he probaly wouldn't even have been ther in teh second round all together.
 
The way I see this Babin vs. Peek thing is the that Babin has more upside, especially his ability to cover a TE. He may not have the huge motor that Peek does, but close. But he has a lot of other tools that Peek doesn't like the ability to drop into pass coverage.

I thought this was well known and that the coaches have even said this before. Peek is a 100% pass rush guy, and a good addition to the team. He is just more of a specialty type player.

Peek got burned last year when trying to cover a TE. Babin got confused a few times in preseason, but has been right on top of guys during coverage lately.

Am I wrong on this?
 
Htown34s said:
The way I see this Babin vs. Peek thing is the that Babin has more upside, especially his ability to cover a TE. He may not have the huge motor that Peek does, but close. But he has a lot of other tools that Peek doesn't like the ability to drop into pass coverage.

I thought this was well known and that the coaches have even said this before. Peek is a 100% pass rush guy, and a good addition to the team. He is just more of a specialty type player.

Peek got burned last year when trying to cover a TE. Babin got confused a few times in preseason, but has been right on top of guys during coverage lately.

Am I wrong on this?
Click to expand...

I believe peek has had to cover some TE routes this season, without getting burned. The argument is not coverage, its the run stopping. And i have a feeling that if he was in on non-passing downs, he wouldnt be running all over the place like everyone says. But I guess everyone thinks of him as a simpleton who is only capable of running forward. I once again bring up something that ive said before, 100+ tackles his senior year in college, Im sure quite a few of those were stopping the running back, and that also led his team. Maybe like i have said his development would be improving at a faster rate if he too had some playing time. My whole argument this year is taht if everyone says just give babin some time to get use to playing, you cant say Peek wouldnt benefit from a similar opportunity.
 
Every time Peek was in the game in running situations last year he was picked on and exposed. Teams exploited him because that is what they do when you have a weakness. You don't see Babin get picked on like Peek was last year. Perhaps you didn't see any games last season?
 
i never said he didnt need to work on run defense, i never said he was perfect at it. i said that he would probably be moving forward faster if he was given more chances, just as everyone is saying that babin will be getting better with his playing chances. and i did see him last season, he did have some mistakes but just like you say babin will make some being a rookie, so did he. i have realized that this really isnt anything to argue about because they are in two different places on the team. babin is going to be given the chance to grow and improve in games, where as peek will have to do it in practice (which in the NFL isnt as likely since there isnt much hitting etc. during practice in season)
 
georgewashington said:
babin is going to be given the chance to grow and improve in games, where as peek will have to do it in practice (which in the NFL isnt as likely since there isnt much hitting etc. during practice in season)
Click to expand...
That's a good point George, and its really a form of economic discrimination
that Peek is living under because the Texans have far less invested in him
than they do Babin. And there's politices to because Babin is a guy C&C
have made a big gamble on with the huge payday the Titans got when they
handed over their 1st rounder to them. The ole man(McNair) would not look favorably on so much being spent on a dud. But having said all this, it may be that Babin is the best guy for the job anyway. It just seems kinda unfair to
Peek that he doesn't get the same opportunity that Babin does - but as they
say, life is unfair.
 
Vinny said:
Wong had 34 tackles and 5.5 sacks on the strong side OLB his first year here starting all 16 games. That is the same side Babin is on. It takes time, and the OLB will not get the majority of the tackles in this defense, but you need to understand that to grasp that.
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And Vinny i just looked up this little fact of yours, and i believe on teh texans page it says that in wongs first year with the texans he "Started in all 16 games, tying for third on defense with 5 ½ sacks…added 89 tackles, one forced fumble and two passes defensed" looks like im not the only one that has no idea what im talking about. and in 2003 he had 86 tackles. Thats pretty many for a guy playing LOLB who doesnt shouldnt get a majority of the tackles?
 
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12840

Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
1998 Minnesota Vikings 15 19 17.0 2 1.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
1999 Minnesota Vikings 13 48 35.0 13 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2000 Minnesota Vikings 16 112 84.0 28 2 2 28 14.0 14 0 2
2001 Minnesota Vikings 16 98 83.0 15 3 1 27 27.0 27 1 3
2002 Houston Texans 16 43 34.0 9 5.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 8

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12840/gamelogs/2002

GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
09/08 Dallas W 19-10 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/15 @San Diego L 3-24 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
09/22 Indianapolis L 3-23 Yes 1.0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/29 @Philadelphia L 17-35 Yes 2.0 2 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

October Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
10/13 Buffalo L 24-31 Yes 3.0 2 1 0.5 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 0
10/20 @Cleveland L 17-34 Yes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
10/27 @Jacksonville W 21-19 Yes 4.0 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

November Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
11/03 Cincinnati L 3-38 Yes 3.0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/10 @Tennessee L 10-17 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/17 Jacksonville L 21-24 Yes 2.0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
11/24 New York W 16-14 Yes 3.0 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0

December Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
12/01 @Indianapolis L 3-19 Yes 3.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/08 @Pittsburgh W 24-6 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
12/15 Baltimore L 19-23 Yes 2.0 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/22 @Washington L 10-26 Yes 1.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0
12/29 Tennessee L 3-13 Yes 2.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
 
Peek has had every opportunity to crack the starting lineup. He's been a starter for some games, been through 2 training camps and still has not been able to unseat a veteran. Babin is better, that is just a fact. He has the smarts, power and speed to hold his position on every play. Peek is simplay more of a project than Babin, Peek probably is taking more time to excel at the position of OLB, similar to progression that Joey Porter, Jason Gildon, Mike Vrabel and many others that have had to convert to a 3-4 system coming out of college. Peek is perfect right now for where he is positioned, 3rd down pass situations. He is slowly being brought along and should be able to crack a spot next year, typically the time when players like him start to grasp the system. I've watched Babin pretty close, as pretty much everyone has, and he is looking very solid for being a rookie in the 3-4. Could the same be said for Peek if he were inserted there in his rookie year? No, he had his share of troubles last year.
 
Vinny said:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12840

Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
1998 Minnesota Vikings 15 19 17.0 2 1.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
1999 Minnesota Vikings 13 48 35.0 13 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2000 Minnesota Vikings 16 112 84.0 28 2 2 28 14.0 14 0 2
2001 Minnesota Vikings 16 98 83.0 15 3 1 27 27.0 27 1 3
2002 Houston Texans 16 43 34.0 9 5.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 8

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12840/gamelogs/2002

GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
09/08 Dallas W 19-10 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/15 @San Diego L 3-24 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
09/22 Indianapolis L 3-23 Yes 1.0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/29 @Philadelphia L 17-35 Yes 2.0 2 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

October Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
10/13 Buffalo L 24-31 Yes 3.0 2 1 0.5 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 0
10/20 @Cleveland L 17-34 Yes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
10/27 @Jacksonville W 21-19 Yes 4.0 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

November Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
11/03 Cincinnati L 3-38 Yes 3.0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/10 @Tennessee L 10-17 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/17 Jacksonville L 21-24 Yes 2.0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
11/24 New York W 16-14 Yes 3.0 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0

December Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
12/01 @Indianapolis L 3-19 Yes 3.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/08 @Pittsburgh W 24-6 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
12/15 Baltimore L 19-23 Yes 2.0 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/22 @Washington L 10-26 Yes 1.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0
12/29 Tennessee L 3-13 Yes 2.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
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I guess i stand corrected, i was just quoting the texans web page
 
If you look further at this years rookie crop you can see that Babin is doing just fine

12 pick, J. Vilma, 27 tackles, 1.5 sacks
14 pick, T. Harris, 15 tackles, 2.5 sacks
17 pick, DJ WIllimas, 39 tackles, 1 sack
18 pick, Will Smith, 13 tackles, 2 sacks
20 pick, Udeze, Kenechi, 14 tackles, 3 sacks
21 pick, Vince Wilfork, 14 tackles, 2 sacks
23 pick, Marcus Tubbs, 2 tackles, 0 sacks
27 pick, Jason Babin, 18 tackles, 2 sacks
33 pick, Carlos Dansby, 13 tackles, 1 sack
35 pick, I. Olshansky, 17 tackles, 1 sack
37 pick, T. Lehman, 35 tackles, 0 sacks
42 pick, T. LaBoy, 5 tackels, 2.5 sacks
48 pick, Dontarrious Thomas, 28 tackles, 1 sack


Come on now young pup, give Babin a little slack, he is stacking up well with 1st round picks or at least take into consideration that when compared to where we drafted him he is not doing any worse.
 
well.. look at those stats, then consider the fact that the only guys doing better than him are Williams, Vilma, Lehman, and Thomas.. and they arent learning a new position like Babin (and none of em have 2 sacks).

Way I see it.. Babin is allowed to be average to sub-par this year. Next year I expect him to show that he deserved to be a 1st rounder. and his third year.. I HOPE for him to show everyone that our front office has a nose for playmakers and for him to be considered one of the better OLBs in the league. Hes off to a good start in my book.
 
georgewashington said:
I guess i stand corrected, i was just quoting the texans web page
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Welcome to the forum George. We have a small group that has been discussing football here for years. Most of us know who grasps the game well (amongst our long time posters), and frankly we don't know you in any other manner except that you have come in sideways on the rookie and bring an argument that has a weak foundation and no basis. I've done it myself. We all learn something collectively when you (or anyone) brings forth a good argument and can back it up with a bit of logic and rational thought. Hang in there and you will learn a few things from guys like ses, aj, infantrycak, Lucky and many of our other long-term posters (too many to mention, but you will figure out who knows his stuff and who doesn't as you measure their comments with what happens on the field). I'm sure we can learn a thing or two from you also. Just throw down your take and back it up. I've been owned by Ses, aj, Lucky, and a few others over the years on a few issues from time to time. I throw out a ton of opinion so I'm going to be wrong sometimes. In turn, I'm sure I've probably changed their thinking on a few issues from time to time. We know how you feel on this issue. Perhaps if you came at it less absoutely you would find more acceptance to your point of view.

Give a little, take a little. It's all good.

:thumbup
 
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