All encompassing Rick Smith thread

[TexansSeminole]

Then why ignore the FACTS concerning weak teams other teams face annually. Isolated "FACTS" skew and distort intentionally to promote a desired outcome. I doubt those teams would be worse over this time frame, BUT I also doubt the difference is as dramatic as you either think it is or want others to think it is.

I expanded facts that were already presented to give a clearer picture. If you would like to accumulate all the facts in which you speak, go ahead, I don't have the time to do that for each team. Please do though, I would be interested to see them. Otherwise, your post is useless and simply is you doubting something in which you have no factual reason to doubt.

 

[austins23]

The last 5 years of the Colts history is not the best time period of their entire existence, in fact it hardly compares to their previous 5 years. They still made it further than us. 15-25 is better than 15-31, 3 playoff wins is better than 2, and Andrew Luck is better than any QB we got. The Colts clearly do things much better than us, they've been more successful during our entire time as a franchise.

The only thing the colts have been better at is having two bad ass QB's fall into its lap because of ineptitude the year before.

 

[TexansSeminole]

The only thing the colts have been better at is having two bad ass QB's fall into its lap because of ineptitude the year before.

I didn't choose the Colts to compare the Texans with. Either way, atleast they took their QB, we didn't when we had the chance. Obviously, we are paying for that.

 

[Texian]

Good thing Smith got rid of Kubiak and Wade. That solved all our problems. McNair is it clear now??????? I still say not trading down when we had 1.1 will set this franchise back 3-4 years. We will never know though. Smith reminds me of a politician, no accountability. Problem is McNair not doing something about it. Smith is Smith.

Do you REALLY think firing Kubiak and Phillips was a Smith Decision? I'll grant you he performs the duty, but some decisions are not made at the theoretical level, they are made upstairs and carried out by functionaries.

This should answer any questions about who made the decision and who fired Kubiak: http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-med...-change-/65d31e5b-fc1a-41f0-8196-c904327b706c

 

[sandman]

The last 5 years of the Colts history is not the best time period of their entire existence, in fact it hardly compares to their previous 5 years. They still made it further than us. 15-25 is better than 15-31, 3 playoff wins is better than 2, and Andrew Luck is better than any QB we got. The Colts clearly do things much better than us, they've been more successful during our entire time as a franchise.

You are the one who pointed out the Texans performance over the last 5 years. I was simply showing the Colts over that same time period. A 33% to 37% winning percentage against good teams, two more regular season wins, one less division title and one more playoff victory over a 5 year period is not a significant statistical difference in success to say the Colts do things much better than the Texans.

And it's a pretty weak argument that they have been more successful during the entire time as a Texans franchise. Manning was in his prime during the Texans first five seasons as an expansion franchise, winning multiple MVP's and a Super Bowl. One has nothing to do with the other. The fact that they are not as good a franchise since Manning left, even with Luck, shows that it was more about Manning than the organization.

 

[DocBar]

What area do y'all consider to be Smith's weakest or strongest? Drafting, FA, retaining talent, managing the cap? Who do you consider his biggest bust at each? I'm going to say drafting is his worst area, especially in the mid rounds. That's where the really good GM's make their hay and build a roster.
I'm going to say his biggest draft bust has to be Okoye in 2007. Ed Reed is, hands down, the worst FA signing and it's gotta be Schaub's extension

 

[sandman]

What area do y'all consider to be Smith's weakest or strongest? Drafting, FA, retaining talent, managing the cap? Who do you consider his biggest bust at each? I'm going to say drafting is his worst area, especially in the mid rounds. That's where the really good GM's make their hay and build a roster.
I'm going to say his biggest draft bust has to be Okoye in 2007. Ed Reed is, hands down, the worst FA signing and it's gotta be Schaub's extension

I think that every GM is going to have some bad contracts, whether FA or extensions. Smith has also made some good FA moves and made the right move on extensions. Where he consistently misses the mark is, as you stated, the mid round draft picks. That fixes depth issues on the roster. Which fixes a lot of other issues.

 

[TexansSeminole]

You are the one who pointed out the Texans performance over the last 5 years. I was simply showing the Colts over that same time period. A 33% to 37% winning percentage against good teams, two more regular season wins, one less division title and one more playoff victory over a 5 year period is not a significant statistical difference in success to say the Colts do things much better than the Texans.

And it's a pretty weak argument that they have been more successful during the entire time as a Texans franchise. Manning was in his prime during the Texans first five seasons as an expansion franchise, winning multiple MVP's and a Super Bowl. One has nothing to do with the other. The fact that they are not as good a franchise since Manning left, even with Luck, shows that it was more about Manning than the organization.

I chose the past 5 years because that was the time period of the original argument. It also happens to be the best time period of our franchise's history. As I said, still worse than the Colts, the team you chose to compare the Texans with in that time period. The winning percentage, getting further into the playoffs, and the acquisition of an elite QB all combine to show that the Colts have been better in that time period. You need only to compare previous seasons to conclude that the Colts have been much better than us. Hell, we just beat them for the first time in their place after how many seasons?

Whatever constraints you choose to put on the comparison between the two franchises that you chose to use is on you. If it's not fair that the Colts had Manning, why choose them? Choose a different franchise if you are going to be nit picky about your own choice.

If it's not fair that the Texans were an expansion franchise, why respond at all with a comparison?

My point was to show that while you can cite 4 winning seasons, 3 division championships, and 2 playoff wins as a barometer for success on par with a select group, there is a more in depth analysis that will show that the team isn't nearly as successful as indicated. The Texans played in the worst division in football by a long shot during that time period, a poor record versus .500 or better teams, and lack of talent at the most important position in the sport all give a clearer picture as to how successful this franchise actually has been over the past 5 seasons. I'd be surprised if you could find a team with close to or on par achievements (winning seasons, division championships) with a worse or even win percentage versus .500 or better teams. There's one common replaceable denominator in this discussion.

 

[Texian]

What area do y'all consider to be Smith's weakest or strongest? Drafting, FA, retaining talent, managing the cap? Who do you consider his biggest bust at each? I'm going to say drafting is his worst area, especially in the mid rounds. That's where the really good GM's make their hay and build a roster.
I'm going to say his biggest draft bust has to be Okoye in 2007. Ed Reed is, hands down, the worst FA signing and it's gotta be Schaub's extension

Smith was an Asst GM in Denver and that is why he was brought to Houston, to be an assistant to Kubiak who had final say on 53 man roster and the real GM Bob McNair. Kubiak wanted the same system he had used in Denver for so many years. Smith completely revamped the Pro and College scouting departments after his arrival and that his worst accomplishments. As is evidence in the results of drafts since his arrival (RDs 2-7). Ed Reed was clearly a Bob McNair decision. Ed was going to bring the toughness McNair wanted. Only McNair makes the decision to ferry his plane to pick up players.

 

[Marshall]

I chose the past 5 years because that was the time period of the original argument. It also happens to be the best time period of our franchise's history. As I said, still worse than the Colts, the team you chose to compare the Texans with in that time period. The winning percentage, getting further into the playoffs, and the acquisition of an elite QB all combine to show that the Colts have been better in that time period. You need only to compare previous seasons to conclude that the Colts have been much better than us. Hell, we just beat them for the first time in their place after how many seasons?

Whatever constraints you choose to put on the comparison between the two franchises that you chose to use is on you. If it's not fair that the Colts had Manning, why choose them? Choose a different franchise if you are going to be nit picky about your own choice.

If it's not fair that the Texans were an expansion franchise, why respond at all with a comparison?

Past Five Years:
Indianapolis 43-37
Houston 42-38
Tennessee 27-53
Jacksonville 19-61

Since the Division was formed:
Indianapolis 152-72
Tennessee 104-120
Houston 97-127
Jacksonville 90-134

I see a nice trend from non-competitive to about equal with your "ELITE ORGANIZATION."

 

[sandman]

I chose the past 5 years because that was the time period of the original argument. It also happens to be the best time period of our franchise's history. As I said, still worse than the Colts, the team you chose to compare the Texans with in that time period. The winning percentage, getting further into the playoffs, and the acquisition of an elite QB all combine to show that the Colts have been better in that time period. You need only to compare previous seasons to conclude that the Colts have been much better than us. Hell, we just beat them for the first time in their place after how many seasons?

Whatever constraints you choose to put on the comparison between the two franchises that you chose to use is on you. If it's not fair that the Colts had Manning, why choose them? Choose a different franchise if you are going to be nit picky about your own choice.

If it's not fair that the Texans were an expansion franchise, why respond at all with a comparison?

Pretty sure the only comparison I made was the last five years. And I brought up the Colts because they have forever and always been seen as the team the Texans need to become. It was a valid comparison, especially when that 5 year period denotes a huge shift in the Colts franchise with the departure of Manning. You are the one who responded with "for the entire time of our franchise". I didn't bring the expansion era into the debate. You did. And I stick with the last five years for a reason. It shows the Texans are indeed moving on from an expansion franchise and showing sustained success via multiple winning seasons, multiple division championships and multiple playoff appearances. In that same 5 years, the Colts moved on from Manning, Sucked for Luck (LOL on your "acquisition of an elite QB" hyperbole) and are clearly not as successful as they were when Manning was on the team.

The Texans lead in division titles 3 to 2, which in my mind negates the two more wins in five total years by the Colts. The only differentiator is the one extra playoff victory, which happened to be a divisional game which the Texans couldn't do. That is literally what separates the current versions/eras of both of these franchises: one AFCCG appearance.

 

[steelbtexan]

The Colts are 15-25 against teams with a .500 winning percentage or better in that same time frame.

The Colts are 15-5 against those same two Jags/Tits teams that the Texans went 16-4 against.

The Colts have had Andrew Luck for 75% of those games over the last 5 years. The Texans best QB was Broke Schaub.

The Colts have made the playoffs three times, winning three games. That is the same appearances and one more win than the Texans.

These are facts as well. But we keep getting told that they do things so much better than the Texans, front office to sideline. That they are a successful franchise and the Texans are the laughingstock of the NFL. But the facts...

Here's the deal fans like TS and me could care less what the Colts/other teams record is, or what they do. We only care about how the Texans do and their record againt above .500 teams is awful. Not to mention the fact that it's embarrassing to get blown out/shutout in a home playoff game on national TV.

If you want to believe the Texans are on the right track that's your perrogative. But the facts are what they are.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Past Five Years:
Indianapolis 43-37
Houston 42-38
Tennessee 27-53
Jacksonville 19-61

Since the Division was formed:
Indianapolis 152-72
Tennessee 104-120
Houston 97-127
Jacksonville 90-134

I see a nice trend from non-competitive to about equal with your "ELITE ORGANIZATION."

I never said they were elite, I said they were better. The fact that you put "elite organization" in quotes and all caps suggests you don't view them as elite, yet they've been better than us. What does that show?

 

[steelbtexan]

The Colts are 15-25 against teams with a .500 winning percentage or better in that same time frame.

The Colts are 15-5 against those same two Jags/Tits teams that the Texans went 16-4 against.

The Colts have had Andrew Luck for 75% of those games over the last 5 years. The Texans best QB was Broke Schaub.

The Colts have made the playoffs three times, winning three games. That is the same appearances and one more win than the Texans.

These are facts as well. But we keep getting told that they do things so much better than the Texans, front office to sideline. That they are a successful franchise and the Texans are the laughingstock of the NFL. But the facts...

Here's the deal fans like TS and me could care less what the Colts/other teams record is, or what they do. We only care about how the Texans do and their record againt above .500 teams is awful. Not to mention the fact that it's embarrassing to get blown out/shutout in a home playoff game on national TV.

If you want to believe the Texans are on the right track that's your perogative. But the facts are what they are.

 

[sandman]

Here's the deal fans like TS and me could care less what the Colts/other teams record is, or what they do. We only care about how the Texans do and their record againt above .500 teams is awful. Not to mention the fact that it's embarrassing to get blown out/shutout in a home playoff game on national TV.

If you want to believe the Texans are on the right track that's your perrogative. But the facts are what they are.

Then: One winning season in nine years. Zero playoff appearances.

Now: Four winning seasons in five years. Three playoff appearances.

Yes, those facts do say the Texans are headed on the right track. You refuse to recognize it though because of Rick Smith. Likewise, that is your prerogative regardless of the facts.

 

[steelbtexan]

Then: One winning season in nine years. Zero playoff appearances.

Now: Four winning seasons in five years. Three playoff appearances.

Yes, those facts do say the Texans are headed on the right track. You refuse to recognize it though because of Rick Smith. Likewise, that is your prerogative regardless of the facts.

Hope you enjoyed the 30-0 blowout as much as I did. $1600 later.

This is why the Texans are a joke on the national scene. BOB said as much on HK, nobody respects the Texans on the field product in NFL circles.

 

[sandman]

Hope you enjoyed the 30-0 blowout as much as I did. $1600 later.

Ignores obvious facts/data, responds with "but but but BAD PLAYOFF LOSS so this franchise sucks!"

I'm done here.

 

[steelbtexan]

Ignores obvious facts/data, responds with "but but but BAD PLAYOFF LOSS so this franchise sucks!"

I'm done here.

Good

 

[TexansSeminole]

Pretty sure the only comparison I made was the last five years. And I brought up the Colts because they have forever and always been seen as the team the Texans need to become. It was a valid comparison, especially when that 5 year period denotes a huge shift in the Colts franchise with the departure of Manning. You are the one who responded with "for the entire time of our franchise". I didn't bring the expansion era into the debate. You did. And I stick with the last five years for a reason. It shows the Texans are indeed moving on from an expansion franchise and showing sustained success via multiple winning seasons, multiple division championships and multiple playoff appearances. In that same 5 years, the Colts moved on from Manning, Sucked for Luck (LOL on your "acquisition of an elite QB" hyperbole) and are clearly not as successful as they were when Manning was on the team.

The Texans lead in division titles 3 to 2, which in my mind negates the two more wins in five total years by the Colts. The only differentiator is the one extra playoff victory, which happened to be a divisional game which the Texans couldn't do. That is literally what separates the current versions/eras of both of these franchises: one AFCCG appearance.

Making it further into the playoffs would qualify as better in my eyes with such close overall records and division titles. Even if you want to call that a tie, as you have, the Colts have still been better against .500 or better teams in that time period, they've been better against the better competition.

You can say what you want about "sucked for Luck," but the Colts took their QB when they went 2-14 and had a shot at one. We didn't. We chose the injury prone defensive lineman when we already have the best defensive lineman in the game and desperately needed a QB. It'd be nonsense to not admit that the Colts were fortunate to have a shot at Luck, but the fact still remains. We had a shot at a group of QBs that is doing quite well in the league today and we botched it.

Again:

My point was to show that while you can cite 4 winning seasons, 3 division championships, and 2 playoff wins as a barometer for success on par with a select group, there is a more in depth analysis that will show that the team isn't nearly as successful as indicated. The Texans played in the worst division in football by a long shot during that time period, a poor record versus .500 or better teams, and lack of talent at the most important position in the sport all give a clearer picture as to how successful this franchise actually has been over the past 5 seasons. I'd be surprised if you could find a team with close to or on par achievements (winning seasons, division championships) with a worse or even win percentage versus .500 or better teams. There's one common replaceable denominator in this discussion.

Find me that team.

I think that every GM is going to have some bad contracts, whether FA or extensions. Smith has also made some good FA moves and made the right move on extensions. Where he consistently misses the mark is, as you stated, the mid round draft picks. That fixes depth issues on the roster. Which fixes a lot of other issues.

You also seem to agree with the overall point that I am making. Although, I would add that Smith has made as many poor extensions as good ones, if not more. FA acquisitions is also easily up for debate.

 

[Marshall]

I never said they were elite, I said they were better. The fact that you put "elite organization" in quotes and all caps suggests you don't view them as elite, yet they've been better than us. What does that show?

Perhaps that I don't think they are better than us, at least not in the last five years. But can you conceive anyone in their right mind saying that, even with an ALMOST identical record?

 

[Number19]

... And I stick with the last five years for a reason. It shows the Texans are indeed moving on from an expansion franchise and showing sustained success via multiple winning seasons, multiple division championships and multiple playoff appearances...

Now we just need to take that one final step to become a true championship caliber team. Despite all the negativity, re the ownership, the GM, the coaching and bad decisions, the organization is close to achieving the team we, as fans, want. I'm optimistic going into this off season.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Perhaps that I don't think they are better than us, at least not in the last five years. But can you conceive anyone in their right mind saying that, even with an ALMOST identical record?

Maybe you should read more of the discussion if you want to participate and this is the only way you've chosen to compare the two.

 

[steelbtexan]

Perhaps that I don't think they are better than us, at least not in the last five years. But can you conceive anyone in their right mind saying that, even with an ALMOST identical record?

Says the man who started the Brian Hoyer fan club.

 

[Texian]

The record is pretty clear that when the Colts#1 Starting QB is down and out, the Texans have an outside chance at winning the division.

 

[Marshall]

Says the man who started the Brian Hoyer fan club.

We certainly have a different perspective on things. I was optimistic that Hoyer still had the skills to deliver as well as the head to grasp the offense. I appeared to be incorrect in the former while still believing the latter. But that won't change me from an optimist to a pessimist.

 

[TexansSeminole]

We certainly have a different perspective on things. I was optimistic that Hoyer still had the skills to deliver as well as the head to grasp the offense. I appeared to be incorrect in the former while still believing the latter. But that won't change me from an optimist to a pessimist.

And that is the overall key to the difference between some fans. Some fans like to look at the past in-depth to better determine where we stand and how we can get better. I've done that here and it's viewed as a pessimistic view by you and some others. I view that analysis as a look at the true facts, mostly to shine the light on Rick Smith, who I think is the real problem (replaceable problem).

If you want to turn a blind eye to those facts and flex your optimism muscles, that's fine.

 

[thunderkyss]

What area do y'all consider to be Smith's weakest or strongest? Drafting, FA, retaining talent, managing the cap? Who do you consider his biggest bust at each? I'm going to say drafting is his worst area, especially in the mid rounds. That's where the really good GM's make their hay and build a roster.
I'm going to say his biggest draft bust has to be Okoye in 2007. Ed Reed is, hands down, the worst FA signing and it's gotta be Schaub's extension

Nobody wants to hear it, but I think it puts him in a strange position to select players & manage the draft, give these players to a HC who does not report directly to you. Jalen Strong was supposed to be a first round talent. We got him late in the third, but because he doesn't practice right, he doesn't get on the field very often. & when he does get on the field, he produces.

But most of us judge Jalen Strong based on what the HC says. What the HC allows him to do. Same thing with XSF. Same thing with Ben Jones under Kubiak. Who knows how many players our coaches screwed over.

 

[steelbtexan]

Nobody wants to hear it, but I think it puts him in a strange position to select players & manage the draft, give these players to a HC who does not report directly to you. Jalen Strong was supposed to be a first round talent. We got him late in the third, but because he doesn't practice right, he doesn't get on the field very often. & when he does get on the field, he produces.

But most of us judge Jalen Strong based on what the HC says. What the HC allows him to do. Same thing with XSF. Same thing with Ben Jones under Kubiak. Who knows how many players our coaches screwed over.

I dont believe Strong got screwed over. I just dont think he knew how to prepare to be an NFL player. I think it's sad that Rick traded up for Strong and passed up a stud RB like David Johnson. This isn't hindsight either.

 

[thunderkyss]

The Texans were 15-31 during the past 5 seasons against teams with a .500 or better win percentage.

The Colts are 15-25 against teams with a .500 winning percentage or better in that same time frame.

15-25 is better than 15-31

If the six game difference is because the Colts beat us six times in that time period, I don't think it proves your point TS.

These numbers tell me we're pretty much the same as the Colts over that time. They've done it because of their QB. We've done it because of the team we've built.

All we have to do is draft a 1st rd QB & we'll dominate for years. They've still got to build a team around their QB.

 

[thunderkyss]

The record is pretty clear that when the Colts#1 Starting QB is down and out, the Texans have an outside chance at winning the division.

in 2014 the Colts finished 11-5, we finished 9-7.

Their QB was healthy that season. Had they not broken our QB's leg in our game against them, we could have won that game. I know it didn't happen. But if it did, we'd have finished 10-6, same as them. 10-6. I think we're a lot closer to them now than we've ever been.

 

[Double Barrel]

We certainly have a different perspective on things. I was optimistic that Hoyer still had the skills to deliver as well as the head to grasp the offense. I appeared to be incorrect in the former while still believing the latter. But that won't change me from an optimist to a pessimist.

What you should have said: "But that won't change me from an blind optimist to a realist."

You refused to look at Hoyer for what 90% of Texans fans (and NFL fans in general) saw in him. I guess in your defense the HC agreed with you, but that just makes him myopic, too.

Instead you berated anyone that was critical of Hoyer, based on his own history, as pessimistic haters. I respect your acceptance of being wrong, but your credibility is shot every time you wave your pom poms without any critical thought behind it.

 

[Texian]

in 2014 the Colts finished 11-5, we finished 9-7.

Their QB was healthy that season. Had they not broken our QB's leg in our game against them, we could have won that game. I know it didn't happen. But if it did, we'd have finished 10-6, same as them. 10-6. I think we're a lot closer to them now than we've ever been.

The record is clear and it doesn't take in to account ifs, buts, ORs, spin or excuses of any kind.

 

[thunderkyss]

The record is clear and it doesn't take in to account ifs, buts, ORs, spin or excuses of any kind.

Exactly. We're a lot closer than you think.

 

[Double Barrel]

Exactly. We're a lot closer than you think.

I guess it's a chosen perception thing, because without a viable starting QB, I think we are much further away than many Texans fans are willing to accept. And I have even less confidence in O'Brien, McNair, & Smith in finding a viable starting QB than I was a couple of years ago. The last two seasons have been eye opening in that regard. This organization is simply too flaccid and scared to make bold decisions.

 

[thunderkyss]

I guess it's a chosen perception thing, because without a viable starting QB, I think we are much further away than many Texans fans are willing to accept. And I have even less confidence in O'Brien, McNair, & Smith in finding a viable starting QB than I was a couple of years ago. The last two seasons have been eye opening in that regard. This organization is simply too flaccid and scared to make bold decisions.

Further away than what?

Further away from Indy? I don't think so & that's what we're talking about. I'm not saying we're that great, I'm saying whether it's us or the Colts, the Patriots are going to win by 30.

 

[infantrycak]

Further away than what?

Further away from Indy? I don't think so & that's what we're talking about. I'm not saying we're that great, I'm saying whether it's us or the Colts, the Patriots are going to win by 30.

Not if we had a QB.

 

[thunderkyss]

Not if we had a QB.

Exactly.

 

[dream_team]

In the past 5 seasons, the most successful run of this franchise, the Texans are 42-38 in the regular season. In the playoffs, the Texans are 2-3 with a score differential of -23. The two wins were against the Bengals, two games in which Dalton threw 4 interceptions. In the follow up games in 2011 and 2012, Brady and Flacco went for 5 TD passes and 0 INTs. That's the pinnacle of the franchise's success.

In this same time frame, the Texans are 8-2 against a Jaguars club that was 19-61 in the same time span and 8-2 against a Titans club that was 27-53 in the same time span. That's 16-4 against two clubs that were a combined 46-114. The Texans were 15-31 during the past 5 seasons against teams with a .500 or better win percentage.

Don't let facts get in your way.

Let me re-phrase my question so even you can't deny it. Who deserves the credit for building the Texans to be significantly better than the Titans & Jags in the past 5 seasons? McNair? Rick? Kubiak? BOB?

 

[dream_team]

The last 5 years of the Colts history is not the best time period of their entire existence, in fact it hardly compares to their previous 5 years. They still made it further than us. 15-25 is better than 15-31, 3 playoff wins is better than 2, and Andrew Luck is better than any QB we got. The Colts clearly do things much better than us, they've been more successful during our entire time as a franchise.

IMO... I MUCH rather have Rick than Grigson. I MUCH rather have BOB than Pagano. The only thing the Colts have done better than the Texans is suck at the right time. There is zero doubt in my mind the Texans are drafting Luck if they had #1 overall in 2012.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Let me re-phrase my question so even you can't deny it. Who deserves the credit for building the Texans to be significantly better than the Titans & Jags in the past 5 seasons? McNair? Rick? Kubiak? BOB?

Credit for being better than the Titans and Jags?

You missed the point entirely.

 

[thunderkyss]

So I guess we need to do a power ranking so that we're all talking apples to apples.

How good/bad are the Texans? Do we all agree were the 12th best team in the league, ranking every play off team ahead of us?

Are there any non playoff teams that should be considered better?

Colts? I argue no, because we've been neck & neck with them over the last two seasons. They have the better QB, we have the better team.

 

[dream_team]

Credit for being better than the Titans and Jags?

You missed the point entirely.

No, I get your point. And I agree it's a valid point (I just so happen to not agree with it).

But my question is still valid. We're obviously not in the bottom tier of teams like the Titans & Jags have been in. Who should we credit for building a team (in your words) "marginally sucks" and not "totally suck"? Rick? McNair? BOB? Kubiak?

 

[Double Barrel]

Further away than what?

Further away from Indy? I don't think so & that's what we're talking about. I'm not saying we're that great, I'm saying whether it's us or the Colts, the Patriots are going to win by 30.

I was replying to your comment: "We're a lot closer than you think."

I assumed that you meant closer to being a true contender for an NFL Championship, but if the goal is just to win the division, then yeah, that changes the conversation. Winning the division should be nothing but an invitation to the big dance, not the end goal.

 

[TexansSeminole]

No, I get your point. And I agree it's a valid point (I just so happen to not agree with it).

But my question is still valid. We're obviously not in the bottom tier of teams like the Titans & Jags have been in. Who should we credit for building a team (in your words) "marginally sucks" and not "totally suck"? Rick? McNair? BOB? Kubiak?

You can't possibly answer that question with one person. Kubiak has been gone for 2 years and OB just came aboard 2 years ago.

You'd have to investigate the inter-workings of the organization over the past 10 or so years in order to accurately answer that question. I believe Rick Smith is in charge of personnel, so I credit him with most of the personnel decisions made since he came aboard. Coaches obviously impact everything that happens on the field, so they share in the credit for any success or failure.

McNair should control the organizational structure and make FO hirings, so he deserves credit/blame for everything that happens with the club.

Your question is actually invalid as it cannot possibly be answered, and it's only asked to prove a point that doesn't even come close to addressing the discussion that's evolved.

 

[infantrycak]

Define controls personnel. Kubiak wanted Schaub but he didn't want him extended. Smith did that. Who was in control?

 

[dream_team]

You can't possibly answer that question with one person. Kubiak has been gone for 2 years and OB just came aboard 2 years ago.

You'd have to investigate the inter-workings of the organization over the past 10 or so years in order to accurately answer that question. I believe Rick Smith is in charge of personnel, so I credit him with most of the personnel decisions made since he came aboard. Coaches obviously impact everything that happens on the field, so they share in the credit for any success or failure.

McNair should control the organizational structure and make FO hirings, so he deserves credit/blame for everything that happens with the club.

Your question is actually invalid as it cannot possibly be answered, and it's only asked to prove a point that doesn't even come close to addressing the discussion that's evolved.

Yay, we're in agreement somewhere! I totally agree that it's extremely hard for us (the common fan) to answer these types of questions with just one person. Everyone deserves some credit, and we also don't really know the inter-workings of the organization.

I ask this question because if we can't answer whom deserves credit, then how can answer whom deserves blame? The common theme in this thread is "we're not a successful team because of Rick." Without fully understanding how the organization is ran internally, without fully understanding who made what decisions, how are we so sure Rick is the main guy holding us back?

 

[Texian]

Define controls personnel. Kubiak wanted Schaub but he didn't want him extended. Smith did that. Who was in control?

Smith was acting on McNair orders.

 

[infantrycak]

Smith was acting on McNair orders.

According to you...with no support at all.

 

[ObsiWan]

Just love getting shutout/Blown out in the playoffs at home. Almost as much as watching Hoyer attempt to play QB.

Are those facts?

It's also fact that the coach made up the game plan, called the plays, and selected which personnel would play in that blowout. Same guy that was too arrogant to play (or even prep) his backup QB to be ready in case of emergency.

RS had nothing to do with that decision process.

 

[Texian]

According to you...with no support at all.

So you really think that Rick Smith just arbitrarily decided one day that he wanted to extend Schaub regardless of what Kubiak wanted or didn't want and Bob McNair had no say so or in put in the matter? OK then....