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Clowney, then what?

nytexan said:
Dwight Freeney, 6'1 268
Robert Mathis 6'2 246
Need I go on, size isn't everything, can he get to the QB is what's important.

Well I guess silly isn't as bad as f'n yankee, when I first got here.
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Sigh...Another silly snowbird. I never threw out an F bomb. Projecting a college prospect out to NFL production is probably the main reason a lot of college recruits are busts. Project those players against what the best in the NFL does and you'll get a truer answer.
 
I'm not worried about his motor or how he will fit in this scheme. Both subjects are being over thought. He might now have great tech with his hands as a pass rusher yet but he has no problems eluding and slipping by guys. He's very JJ Watt like in that way. His quickness and his athleticism will get him by early.

Having Watt opposite of him will create a lot of opportunities for him to make quick moves to the QB. You can bet RAC will have some creative ways to use the two of them.
 
DocBar said:
Sigh...Another silly snowbird. I never threw out an F bomb. Projecting a college prospect out to NFL production is probably the main reason a lot of college recruits are busts. Project those players against what the best in the NFL does and you'll get a truer answer.
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Never said you did, but the 1976 Texans I encountered sure did use it alot.

I wasn't comparing him to anyone talent wise, I was just showing size comparisons. He can either play or can't. My preference would be to trade down and get extra picks and select a QB next year.
 
mussop said:
I'm not worried about his motor or how he will fit in this scheme. Both subjects are being over thought. He might now have great tech with his hands as a pass rusher yet but he has no problems eluding and slipping by guys. He's very JJ Watt like in that way. His quickness and his athleticism will get him by early.

Having Watt opposite of him will create a lot of opportunities for him to make quick moves to the QB. You can bet RAC will have some creative ways to use the two of them.
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That's why your avatar is always on fire. LOL
 
nytexan said:
For those that think Clowney can't play DE in this league because he doesn't carry enough weight, Bruce Smith played his entire career in a 3-4 and he was 6'4, 262.
Sound familiar???
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nytexan said:
Dwight Freeney, 6'1 268
Robert Mathis 6'2 246
Need I go on, size isn't everything, can he get to the QB is what's important.
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You do know Dwight Freeney & Robert Mathis did not play DE in a 3-4 right?
 
I just found out Clowney is left handed.

All of those draft posts and I'm just now figuring that out.
thumb_smileyvault-lol.gif
 
HJam72 said:
I am really against taking Clowney at this point. I just can't see this working out well, unless he is traded to a team he fits better with.

BPA be damned; we need a guy that will exceed on OUR team.
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DocBar said:
Valid point. I never said I'd take him off my board completely. Just not at 1.1.

That's the screwed up thing with this draft. I can't find a prospect that's worthy of 1.1. That's why I would be the easiest trade negotiator another GM ever met. I'd say the 1st overall pick is up for sale to the highest bidder and I would take the highest bid.
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Could not agree more with these takes.

I think HJam mentioned coverage skills. Anybody see drills of Clowney in open field, I think he almost fell down. Receivers do cut and Clowney can't.
Straight line speed for DL is over rated.

Even if the Texans take Clowney No. 1 I will still have hope of a trade until Atl picks. Hope the Texans make trade before they pick though.

Ready to get this draft done.
 
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If Clowney is our pick, it will be because the coaches and the front office have come to a common agreement. Mostly because Crennel's can effectively build his defense around this pick. As recently signed NT Jerrell Powe was quoted in this mornings Chronicle, " it's more of a linebacker defense " and Clowney will be lining up as an outside linebacker on run downs. Which side is unclear, but most probably on the right side where Mercilus currently plays. Mercilus was a 4-3 DE who converted to 3-4 OLB and Clowney should be able to adapt to the position as well as Mercilus did. This will be an upgrade at the position and should give us the potential to have the dominate pass rush from each side, with Watt on the opposite side, which is the rationale for taking Clowney.

But as shown with Crennel's KC defenses, if you don't get dominate play out of your right side DE, offenses will put the LT on Clowney every down. We'll have to see how effective Clowney will be going up against the best in every contest, likely one-on-one.

From recent mocks, it's looking likely that NE may be considering Tuitt at the bottom of the first. My mock has him falling to us at #33. For our new defense to play to its potential, we need a player of Tuitt's dominance at the right side DE position. If Tuitt falls to us at #33, it will be interesting to see what we do with the pick - whether we resist taking a QB. We might be able to trade down a few picks and still get Tuitt, but if he falls out of the first round, I'd wake up Friday morning with him as our targeted pick.

Clowney + Tuitt on our right side would be dominate.
 
powda said:
If you said you'd try Clowney at will and just give up on mercy that would have merit I think , but you take him off your board completely because you don't think we can fit him into our scheme?

Maybe we should both back away from the keyboard.
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Seattle does this. Nobody questions them. They have a strict scheme and they only draft players that fit into it.

Scheme fit is important, even though a lot of you guys seem to think it's not. Good coaches either take players who fit their scheme or they change their scheme to fit their players. Bad coaches take players who don't fit their scheme and try to force them into it.

powda said:
Exactly, and while Clowney is a freak, comparing him to one of the all time best de's is unfair. Not to mention smith played in an attacking style wade phillips 3-4 and not the mostly traditional double bubble 3-4 RAC runs.

About 4000 pages ago in this thread I asked twice how Clowney compared to willie mcginist. Willie played the weak side where I think Clowney would do fine. I just wanna keep mercy on the field so id line up Clowney as sam "usually. "

If McGinnist, Ware, and Mario were athletic enough to handle limited coverage responsibilities I see no harm in asking Clowney to do it on the same limited basis. If it doesn't work its not set in stone. Big deal. Move him.

Did Mathis or freeny play 3-4 de?
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I'm going on record here. Clowney will not play strong OLB. He can't. He doesn't have the skillset for it. The only position he can project to in a 34 is weak OLB. If we draft him then he is taking Mercilus' position and Whitney will back him up. Neither can play the strong side.

powda said:
Yup! Question his motor, not his scheme fit.
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His scheme fit is an issue, thus it is questioned.

He best projects as a 43 DE. He could play left or right, depending on the team.

mussop said:
I'm not worried about his motor or how he will fit in this scheme. Both subjects are being over thought. He might now have great tech with his hands as a pass rusher yet but he has no problems eluding and slipping by guys. He's very JJ Watt like in that way. His quickness and his athleticism will get him by early.

Having Watt opposite of him will create a lot of opportunities for him to make quick moves to the QB. You can bet RAC will have some creative ways to use the two of them.
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If Crennel is willing to adapt his scheme to make Clowney fit (i.e. play in nickel 60% of the time) then I agree with you.

If he is strict with his scheme then Clowney probably isn't #1 on the board. We will probably find out today.
 
Can anyone wanting Clowney explain to me how Clowney and Watt can both be used effectively in a 2-gap scheme? ... because I guarantee you Crennel isn't going to turn his defense into an Under defense like Seattle or Tampa-2 defense... And if he was going to transition to a 1-gap scheme, then Aaron Donald should be the pick to play 3-technique.
 
dalemurphy said:
Can anyone wanting Clowney explain to me how Clowney and Watt can both be used effectively in a 2-gap scheme? ... because I guarantee you Crennel isn't going to turn his defense into an Under defense like Seattle or Tampa-2 defense... And if he was going to transition to a 1-gap scheme, then Aaron Donald should be the pick to play 3-technique.
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Clowney (or Mack if he's the pick) will play the "elephant" position popularized by McGinnes back in the day at New England. But the big question is how Crennel handles JJ, and to a lesser degree what he does with Mercilus ? You tell us ?
 
bah007 said:
Seattle does this. Nobody questions them. They have a strict scheme and they only draft players that fit into it.
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dalemurphy said:
Can anyone wanting Clowney explain to me how Clowney and Watt can both be used effectively in a 2-gap scheme? ... because I guarantee you Crennel isn't going to turn his defense into an Under defense like Seattle or Tampa-2 defense... And if he was going to transition to a 1-gap scheme, then Aaron Donald should be the pick to play 3-technique.
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IDEXAN said:
Clowney (or Mack if he's the pick) will play the "elephant" position popularized by McGinnes back in the day at New England. But the big question is how Crennel handles JJ, and to a lesser degree what he does with Mercilus ? You tell us ?
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For folks out there wondering about his motor, understand that underutilizing him or out-and-out misusing him definitely will have an effect on that motor. The two are more linked than one might imagine.
 
dalemurphy said:
Can anyone wanting Clowney explain to me how Clowney and Watt can both be used effectively in a 2-gap scheme? ... because I guarantee you Crennel isn't going to turn his defense into an Under defense like Seattle or Tampa-2 defense... And if he was going to transition to a 1-gap scheme, then Aaron Donald should be the pick to play 3-technique.
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Take Clowney out of the equation. How is RAC going to use a Watt effectively in a two gap scheme?
 
IDEXAN said:
Clowney (or Mack if he's the pick) will play the "elephant" position popularized by McGinnes back in the day at New England. But the big question is how Crennel handles JJ, and to a lesser degree what he does with Mercilus ? You tell us ?
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Last year Mercilus was a one dimensional pass rusher. If he can develop an effective swim move and a spin to go with his outside rip move, then he could become the effective pass rusher we need from the right side. This would allow Mack to move into the strong side spot and allow Reed to move inside. Mack has the skills to play the strong side and matches up well against the TE and RB in pass defense. If need be, Mack can also move inside.
 
gafftop said:
Could not agree more with these takes.

I think HJam mentioned coverage skills. Anybody see drills of Clowney in open field, I think he almost fell down. Receivers do cut and Clowney can't.
Straight line speed for DL is over rated.

Even if the Texans take Clowney No. 1 I will still have hope of a trade until Atl picks. Hope the Texans make trade before they pick though.

Ready to get this draft done.
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That's not what talent evaluators were saying after the workout. They were saying how fluid he looked for such a big man and how amazing the tennis ball thingy was.

I know you don't want Clowney but I think this is a case of seeing what you want to see.
 
bah007 said:
Bad coaches take players who don't fit their scheme and try to force them into it.
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Bad coaches cant find a way to use freakish athletic talent. I'm not asking the guy to be Deion Sanders.
 
Mack, if he is the pick, would play the strong side from the start. He would be the only player on the team with the required skillset.
 
powda said:
Bad coaches cant find a way to use freakish athletic talent. I'm not asking the guy to be Deion Sanders.
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No, but Vernon Gholston was a freakish athletic talent as well. He was used poorly by the Jets and was a massive bust.

He was a 43 DE that didn't project well to 34 OLB, at least to me. Clowney is similar in that respect, at least to me.
 
bah007 said:
Aldon Smith was a freakish talent as well. He was used properly by the 49ers and was a success.

He was a 43 DE that didn't project well to 34 OLB, at least to me. Clowney is similar in that respect, at least to me.
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If you dont like him thats ok. I think he'll be fine.
 
Number19 said:
If Clowney is our pick, it will be because the coaches and the front office have come to a common agreement. Mostly because Crennel's can effectively build his defense around this pick. As recently signed NT Jerrell Powe was quoted in this mornings Chronicle, " it's more of a linebacker defense " and Clowney will be lining up as an outside linebacker on run downs. Which side is unclear, but most probably on the right side where Mercilus currently plays. Mercilus was a 4-3 DE who converted to 3-4 OLB and Clowney should be able to adapt to the position as well as Mercilus did. This will be an upgrade at the position and should give us the potential to have the dominate pass rush from each side, with Watt on the opposite side, which is the rationale for taking Clowney.

But as shown with Crennel's KC defenses, if you don't get dominate play out of your right side DE, offenses will put the LT on Clowney every down. We'll have to see how effective Clowney will be going up against the best in every contest, likely one-on-one.

From recent mocks, it's looking likely that NE may be considering Tuitt at the bottom of the first. My mock has him falling to us at #33. For our new defense to play to its potential, we need a player of Tuitt's dominance at the right side DE position. If Tuitt falls to us at #33, it will be interesting to see what we do with the pick - whether we resist taking a QB. We might be able to trade down a few picks and still get Tuitt, but if he falls out of the first round, I'd wake up Friday morning with him as our targeted pick.

Clowney + Tuitt on our right side would be dominate.
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Repped

Although I like Taylor Hart or McCullers later in the draft to play RDE. Need to improve at QB and the secondary 1st. IMHO
 
steelbtexan said:
That's not what talent evaluators were saying after the workout. They were saying how fluid he looked for such a big man and how amazing the tennis ball thingy was.

I know you don't want Clowney but I think this is a case of seeing what you want to see.
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Agreed 100% with their takes after the workout. The problem is, I never saw it on game tape. Kind of the Anti-Bridgewater as it regards his Pro Day.
 
Number19 said:
Last year Mercilus was a one dimensional pass rusher. If he can develop an effective swim move and a spin to go with his outside rip move, then he could become the effective pass rusher we need from the right side. This would allow Mack to move into the strong side spot and allow Reed to move inside. Mack has the skills to play the strong side and matches up well against the TE and RB in pass defense. If need be, Mack can also move inside.
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So you like Mack because he's good on the strongside as a cover-guy on TEs & RBs in pass-patterns ? Whether it's Clowney or Mack, I would hope he was drafted primarily because of his ability to get after the QB with everything else being secondary.
 
powda said:
If you dont like him thats ok. I think he'll be fine.
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Aldon Smith was a perfect fit for the 49ers defense. They didn't have to alter their scheme at all to fit his talents.

In my estimation, Crennel would have to alter his scheme to fit Clowney's talents. If he is willing to do that then I am on board with selecting Clowney. If he thinks that Clowney fits the scheme as he has typically run it, then I disagree and hope that I am wrong.
 
IDEXAN said:
So you like Mack because he's good on the strongside as a cover-guy on TEs & RBs in pass-patterns ? Whether it's Clowney or Mack, I would hope he was drafted primarily because of his ability to get after the QB with everything else being secondary.
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SOMEBODY has to cover receivers over the middle and it is already a weakness of our Linebacking group, to the point that I have no doubt Patriots fans find it humorous.
 
bah007 said:
Seattle does this. Nobody questions them. They have a strict scheme and they only draft players that fit into it.

Scheme fit is important, even though a lot of you guys seem to think it's not. Good coaches either take players who fit their scheme or they change their scheme to fit their players. Bad coaches take players who don't fit their scheme and try to force them into it.



I'm going on record here. Clowney will not play strong OLB. He can't. He doesn't have the skillset for it. The only position he can project to in a 34 is weak OLB. If we draft him then he is taking Mercilus' position and Whitney will back him up. Neither can play the strong side.



His scheme fit is an issue, thus it is questioned.

He best projects as a 43 DE. He could play left or right, depending on the team.



If Crennel is willing to adapt his scheme to make Clowney fit (i.e. play in nickel 60% of the time) then I agree with you.

If he is strict with his scheme then Clowney probably isn't #1 on the board. We will probably find out today.
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Agreed,

But if Tamba Hali can flourish in Crennel's scheme then I'm sure that Clowney can also be a pro bowl player. Mercilus will become a situational pass rusher/Depth guy when the Texans run Crennel's version of a 4-3 on 3rd and longs. (Which is what Mercilus should've been playing all along.) Drafting Clowney with Watt/Mercilus means a much improved pass rush.
 
disaacks3 said:
Agreed 100% with their takes after the workout. The problem is, I never saw it on game tape. Kind of the Anti-Bridgewater as it regards his Pro Day.
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That's because of the scheme Spurrier asked Clowney to play in. The draft is about projection and it appears that the Texans org thinks Clowney's skillset will transfer.
 
HJam72 said:
SOMEBODY has to cover receivers over the middle and it is already a weakness of our Linebacking group, to the point that I have no doubt Patriots fans find it humorous.
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That will be Cushing/Reed/Whoever is drafted, hopefully Zumwalt's job.
 
HJam72 said:
SOMEBODY has to cover receivers over the middle and it is already a weakness of our Linebacking group, to the point that I have no doubt Patriots fans find it humorous.
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If it's a passing play, don't you think we want our 1.1 rushing the QB instead of covering the back in the flat who the QB is throwing the ball to ? That's why he's being paid all of that money.
 
I'm content with the thought that if the Texans take Clowney at #1 then it will be because Romeo Crennel knows exactly what he plans on doing with him. This is Romeo Crennel the "DC", not Romeo Crennel the "HC". He knows what he's doing.

If they don't take him at 1-1 (assuming we have the pick and haven't traded it for a big ol' treasure chest of picks) and go in some other direction I'll also assume that Romeo Crennel wasn't that enamored with him. I'm fine with that. On this coaching staff I'm all in so if they think we need Manziel then I'll gag a bit and buy into it. If they think Clowney can cover who gives a crap what Docbar, Powda, or Hervoyel thinks?

They could be wrong of course. They could get it wrong and blow the pick. That's always possible but it's year one and this DC has at least the pedigree that our last one had. Wade was crazy to move Mario to OLB right? Could he cover? Had he ever covered before? Did it appear to be working before a pectoral muscle derailed the experiment? Sure has hell did.
 
I'm now to the point I'd be happy drafting any of the top 4 players that aren't QBs at 1.1.

Clowney
Mack
Robinson
Watkins

possibly even Mathews
 
steelbtexan said:
Repped

Although I like Taylor Hart or McCullers later in the draft to play RDE. Need to improve at QB and the secondary 1st. IMHO
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Early on, Hart was a prospect I had my eye on. Depending on how the draft plays out, he's one I'd be looking at in the mid-rounds.
 
HOU-TEX said:
I'm now to the point I'd be happy drafting any of the top 4 players that aren't QBs at 1.1.

Clowney
Mack
Robinson
Watkins

possibly even Mathews
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Me too. Having a RT to compliment Brown and the recent interior OL players we drafted would make for a possible strength of this team. RT may be our biggest need outside of QB.Watkins is just special. Mack under Vrabel next to Cush could be very special, and we know how appealing Watt/Clowney could be.

These are the 4 players before the drop off. The area all other teams want to be in.
 
I think the biggest problem Clowney comes with is simply the potential effect it will have on the fan base. Three words. "Insane. Clowney. Posse".

Are we ready for a parking lot at Reliant teeming with face paint wearing "Juggalo" Texans fans? Is anyone ready for that? How do magnets work and can they be used to repel morons in face paint? These are important questions we'll be asking ourselves if Clowney is the pick.
 
RE: Clowney and Watt working in a two-gap

I can't speak for an orthodox 2-gap scheme, but this article about Vince Wilfork and the New England defense from a few years ago talked about its use of a hybrid front from left to right: a two-gap 4-3 DE, a 0-technique Nose, then a 1-gap 3-4 DE next to a 3-4 OLB, which for us could look like

Clowney-Powe-Watt-Mercilus

In any case, Crennel's use of McGinest in New England and Hami in Kansas City as the 'Elephant' linebacker (weakside OLB who rushes the QB 90% of the time and is big enough to play 4-man DE on passing downs) should eliminate any question of whether Clowney fits; I'm more interested to see how Watt fits.
 
http://mmqb.si.com/2014/05/08/2014-nfl-draft-peter-king/
4. I think, if somehow Clowney doesn’t go number one, you should not eliminate him from the Rams at No. 2. I don’t just think that; I know it. Not saying the Rams will pick Clowney if he doesn’t go No. 1. But the Rams love him, aren’t concerned about his lousy production in 2013 at South Carolina, and, though I know they would prefer a standout tackle, Clowney versus Greg Robinson would be a serious discussion in the draft room. And has been.
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steelbtexan said:
That's because of the scheme Spurrier asked Clowney to play in. The draft is about projection and it appears that the Texans org thinks Clowney's skillset will transfer.
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A possible reason why Spurrier had Clowney in a basic scheme is because Clowney's football IQ may have been limited. Not saying it is...just that it is a possibility.
 
mussop said:
A trade down or serious discussion between Robinson and Clowney should be what is going on in our war room. IF I had to bet on who out of this draft would become a hall of famer my money would be on Robinson.
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I wouldn't take Robinson over Matthews.
 
mussop said:
A trade down or serious discussion between Robinson and Clowney should be what is going on in our war room. IF I had to bet on who out of this draft would become a hall of famer my money would be on Robinson.
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And I am sure that is happening. The thing just is: we already have a franchise LT, so Robinsons value is lower for us. Yeah I know, he can take over LT when Brown leaves, and he would instantly greatly improve our O-Line. And I´d be thrilled if we take him. But there is no denying, that his value his higher for someone, that plans to use him as a LT in the next 2 years.

Clowney on the other hand fills a glaring need at a highly valued position.
 
Hervoyel said:
I think the biggest problem Clowney comes with is simply the potential effect it will have on the fan base. Three words. "Insane. Clowney. Posse".

Are we ready for a parking lot at Reliant teeming with face paint wearing "Juggalo" Texans fans? Is anyone ready for that? How do magnets work and can they be used to repel morons in face paint? These are important questions we'll be asking ourselves if Clowney is the pick.
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lol! Honestly, no worse than all the Super Mario costumes that were around for awhile. ;)

Nobody probably thought of the "Insane. Clowney. Posse" angle until you mentioned it. So if I see it, I'm looking at you, man. Just like all those soap avatars, sometimes you underestimate the power of your imagination on this particular fan base. :shades:
 
Double Barrel said:
lol! Honestly, no worse than all the Super Mario costumes that were around for awhile. ;)

Nobody probably thought of the "Insane. Clowney. Posse" angle until you mentioned it. So if I see it, I'm looking at you, man. Just like all those soap avatars, sometimes you underestimate the power of your imagination on this particular fan base. :shades:
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While I claim that it just came to me I don't think it's particularly original and a quick Google told me that it's been thought of before so I'm lucky there. I can't be entirely blamed for it if Reliant becomes Juggalo Hell on Earth.
 
Double Barrel said:
lol! Honestly, no worse than all the Super Mario costumes that were around for awhile. ;)

Nobody probably thought of the "Insane. Clowney. Posse" angle until you mentioned it. So if I see it, I'm looking at you, man. Just like all those soap avatars, sometimes you underestimate the power of your imagination on this particular fan base. :shades:
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Yeah, it was the first thing I thought when I heard his name.

Oh, wait. No. I didn't think of it until Hervoyel said it. nvm.

:fingergun:
 
mussop said:
Take Clowney out of the equation. How is RAC going to use a Watt effectively in a two gap scheme?
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Watt can be the elephant... maybe not every down, but I would assume he'll be moved there some. But, not if Clowney and Mercilus are both on the team... That's my point.
 
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