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Banks on Schaub

Talk about generalizations, you are completely generalizing me.

Example, I am not expecting playoffs and never mentioned that in this thread. You make several other assumptions about my comments but are reading way too much into them.

Look, Kubiak has made poor QB decisions thus far. Schaub is another unknown risk no matter what you say.

Kubiak should not get a free pass on Carr in any way what so ever.

If you wanna say I am generalizing, well, that is what a message board is for.


How am I generalizing?I'm giving you the FACTS of the situation..how it went down with the owner, GM and others. You are telling me that the NFL is a league where coaches with no head coaching experience show up, turn down dream jobs, tell off owners and start running the show all the while turning 4 year atrocious QBs into winners. None of that is generalizing. If you are stating Kubes failed and Carr was a failure because of him, then you are stating he should have been a top line QB...in one year..and we should have been winning. I guess Jerry Jones should have fired Jimmy J after 1-15.

And if you read anything I wrote before writing..I doubt..you would see that I stated over and over that Schaub was risky and that his job, over time depends on it.
 
I don't understand this line of thinking...

If there is little evidence that Schaub would be successful why was he THE most coveted F/A QB and why did we even go after him ?

You answer your own question on the next post:

What are you talking about ?

He's a human...Humans make mistakes...

I'm guessing you just don't want to even consider another point of view. That is why you don't understand.

Weren't Ryan Leaf, Tony Mandarich, and about 100 other busts also highly coveted? Is that evidence they were successful?

===================

And now to quibble about words.

And no it's not based on a "belief"...It's based on evidence....

We operate our live based on predictions of what will happen. Some predictions have high confidence - the sun will rise in the morning. Some don't - guessing which route to work will be fastest any particular day. Schaub's ultimate success is a prediction based on evidence; not a fact or item of "knowledge"

If you have knowledge of the future, and not belief (predictions if that word offends you), you need to get into the stock market. Or lottery - it's quicker.
 
If you are stating Kubes failed and Carr was a failure because of him

You pay a guy $8 million as a roster bonus and in less than year you can't trade the guy and you end up cutting him, that is a failure. I think we are looking at that decision from different perspectives.

Mine is, Kubiak was the head coach when the $8 million was paid to Carr, it was under his watch.

Kubiak hasn't shown one thing that he is a QB guru coach thus far for the Texans. That can change in the blink of an eye, and we'll be waiting until then.

If Schaub doesn't pan out, then he will just be added to an already developing list of failures by Kubiak in the QB department while the head coach of the Texans.

Point is, Kubiak's decisions and responsiblities started when he became the head coach of the Texans. Zero free passes!
 
Steve Young already had an MVP before Kubes got there.

Plummer came from one of the worst teams in the NFL to one with great running backs and the best line in football.

So Kubes is a QB Guru because he coached two guys that were already HOFers before he showed up, and then sucked with all the other QBs?

I wanted Whisenhunt or Martz for HC myself in 2006.

Anyone know if Payton or Mangini interviewed with the Texans?
 
I'm guessing you just don't want to even consider another point of view. That is why you don't understand.

Weren't Ryan Leaf, Tony Mandarich, and about 100 other busts also highly coveted? Is that evidence they were successful?


Yes they were....

Now find me one post that guarantees Shcaub won't bust...



What does one man's fortunes have to do with another's ?

If we're talking strictly about football, there is more evidence leaning towards Shaub's success rather than failure, otherwise we wouldn't have traded for him...

Sure it's possible that he will bust, but no one says he won't...

Schaub's ultimate success is a prediction based on evidence; not a fact or item of "knowledge"

Again...Find me one post where someone guarantees he won't bust...


*It's not about looking at other view points...It's about my individual perception.....I don't think anyone is dumb enough to believe that Schaub has 100% shot at success...But yet we have a few posters that feel the need to constantly point that out....

Never coming with anything of substance, just the old what "if" and the old "because this happened to that QB" reasoning...That gets old...
 
Anyone know if Payton or Mangini interviewed with the Texans?
It was not reported, if they did. Here are the candidates I remember being interviewed:

Kubiak
Jerry Gray
Cam Cameron
Al Saunders
Scott Linehan
[SIZE=-1]Kirk Ferentz (maybe???)
[/SIZE]Pat Hill (Carr's college coach)

I think the Texans interviewed a couple of their own assistants as a courtesy. Can't remember which ones.
 
*It's not about looking at other view points...It's about my individual perception.....I don't think anyone is dumb enough to believe that Schaub has 100% shot at success...But yet we have a few posters that feel the need to constantly point that out....

Never coming with anything of substance, just the old what "if" and the old "because this happened to that QB" reasoning...That gets old...

It's a message board - everyone likes to post their own individual perceptions. I bet some people think "That gets old" when they get talked down to for no other reason than that their opinion doesn't agree with someone else's world view.

I like good debate. Sometimes I learn something and change my mind. "I'm tired of hearing that argument" isn't good debate to me. It lacks certain substance.

========================

I didn't think my post that you took to task was all that bad about negativism toward Schaub anyway. I even highlighted the "if" in bold red so people would understand it was a big if.

I think there is some risk in Schaub. He has limited game experience and until he plays full time, there will be unanswered questions. He might succeed, he might not. There is little evidence for knowledge either way. Belief, however, is another story.

The coaching staff is staking a lot on Schaub. They paid a high price and he has to be successful for this staff to succeed. There won't be any do overs in a couiple of years if he busts.
 
It was not reported, if they did. Here are the candidates I remember being interviewed:

Kubiak
Jerry Gray
Cam Cameron
Al Saunders
Scott Linehan
[SIZE=-1]Kirk Ferentz (maybe???)
[/SIZE]Pat Hill (Carr's college coach)

I think the Texans interviewed a couple of their own assistants as a courtesy. Can't remember which ones.

I think Kippy Brown was the only one one.
 
It was not reported, if they did. Here are the candidates I remember being interviewed:

Kubiak
Jerry Gray
Cam Cameron
Al Saunders
Scott Linehan
[SIZE=-1]Kirk Ferentz (maybe???)
[/SIZE]Pat Hill (Carr's college coach)

I think the Texans interviewed a couple of their own assistants as a courtesy. Can't remember which ones.

Pat Hill .... I can't imagine why people would think that Kubiak had to tell McNair Carr could lead them to a Super Bowl .
 
And so far his so-called great QB guru skills for the Houston Texans has produced squat (the Carr resigning, not picking a QB at #1 last year, dumping Carr)! You don't have to be football expert to realize that Kubiak has made very poor decisions regarding the QB position.

Your VY homer glasses are clouding your vision. Kubiak would never take Young simply because he's not a WCO QB. Comprehend? Cutler, maybe Leinart, would probably have been his choice, but guess what? Either would have been just as unproven as Schaub and would probably have a much bigger contract right now.

As far as blaming Kubiak for the Carr debacle; That's clearly a chosen perspective and there's no need to debate it. In your mind, you're right.

Dumping Carr should be something you PRAISE Kubiak for, but he's getting blamed for it?! Strange logic...or lack thereof.

My opinion is they could have gone with Sage and been flexible in the future.

You crack me up with this Sage angle. You'd be like flies on poop when Kubiak couldn't make Sage anything other than what he is: a career backup QB.

There is so much QB talent out there. If they really believe Schaub is the guy, then great. But sometimes, people have to get married after they get divorced. Sometimes teams have to get a QB because there is an opening, example Culpepper. Very different situation, but the Texans didn't have to make move on the position, unless you really factor in marketing concerns.

Seriously, bro'...please elaborate on what you consider "so much QB talent out there". Right now it sounds like your blowing smoke, and until you can actually produce a list, you are blowing smoke.

If you start it off with Culpepper, I'm afraid you lose your credibility.

C'mon, man, list away! We're waiting....

Steve Young already had an MVP before Kubes got there.

Steve Young had a Super Bowl MVP before Kubiak arrived?

"I have to say today in the audience I have never been more productive as a player then when Mike Shanahan and when Gary Kubiak were my coach[es]."
~ Steve Young [2005 Pro Football Hall of Fame Enshrinement Ceremony August 7, 2005]
 
I agree with hollywood on this one. Kubiak is paid to coach and last year, when things weren't going so well, he would constantly say things like: "This one's on us as coaches, this one's on me, this is my fault etc."

That came across as disingenuous at the time and it still struck me the wrong way. If it's your fault Carr wasn't ready to play, why are you here and why is he gone? It seems to me that Kubiak feels he has a long enough leash that he can take the blame for things that aren't his fault so that he will silently get the credit when things go right.

However, this is an important year for Kubiak, in my opinion. He has to show that with the guy that HE selected, his offense can be dominant against defenses like Jacksonville's.

I like the Schaub pick-up. It was a clear communication to me that this franchise has taken off its diapers. If production isn't there, the position will be upgraded. Sure, it was an expensive lesson but why not go with a guy you think can do the job?

And I sure hope that Schaub can do the job.

Maybe he took into consideration that DC would be playing in front of a lynch mob at reliant. Or maybe it was his way of saying he screwed up by keeping him and Sage could'nt do the job. Anyway that is past and he is the coach and Schaub is our QB, so as they say "We either take it or leave it." I for one will take it and give the guy a chance, and really could it be any worse than what we've had?????? I think not.
 
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.
 
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

I think his points and mine throughout are getting at the same angle....no one said he was an elite QB, but he hasn't even started a game yet and you are playing Debbie Downer about how there were all these great QBs out there and how Kubes is a failure, etc, etc. I respect an opinion but usually debates have some kind of fact behind them. You've yet to state why Kubes should take credit for Carr or how he could have traded Carr to anyone..it wouldn't even have made sense or happened because of the contract we decided to give him. Secondly, you've failed to address what your beef is in general. If you don't think Kubes was a good hire, say so but saying that after one year is absurd by NFL standards. Espedcially one where a coach is given a QB and inherits a franchise is disarray. On top of that your theory doesn't make any sense. AGAIN, if only a weak minded man would have taken a rigged job..Carr being the QB, then are you saying the second coach of this franchise was doomed for failure and was a pushover to start?To me you are just blaming anyone you can get your hands on for a season that wasn't going to be any good to start.

I'll say this much...if all of your circular arguing is meant to say...."we shouldn't have resigned Dave and VY or another QB should have been drafted"...well, you aren't alone..join the crowd.. but NO coach was going to change that and that is what you are missing. You could replace Kubiak with anyone and your argument would still be the same. The decision was preordained. McNair made the decision and no hire would change that. End of story. BUT we ALL agree he tail is on the line with Schaub.
 
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

HT, I never said Schaub would be an "elite QB". There are only about 4-5 of those in the NFL right now, so far be it from me to ever expect it in a Texans uni. ;)

I just have hope for the guy, and based on what little we've seen and a whole lot of what we've heard, I feel being optimistic is not out of line.

I agree with you that Kubiak's neck is on the line, but that goes without saying no matter who is playing QB. He was billed as a "QB guru", so obviously, our expectations are focussed in that direction. They probably shouldn't have played it up so much before he got hired, because he could only do so much with what he was given (or chose to accept, whatever).

I'm just filing away the first five seasons as water under the bridge and looking ahead as a Texans fan. I'm tired of the scandal and losing ways, so I just choose to hope for the best.
 
My point was:

Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

What can you show me that he has done that is successful in the QB department while coaching the Texans? Nothing except for a lot of glowing hope on Schaub.

Then you write...

I think his points and mine throughout are getting at the same angle....no one said he was an elite QB, but he hasn't even started a game yet and you are playing Debbie Downer about how there were all these great QBs out there and how Kubes is a failure, etc, etc. I respect an opinion but usually debates have some kind of fact behind them. You've yet to state why Kubes should take credit for Carr or how he could have traded Carr to anyone..it wouldn't even have made sense or happened because of the contract we decided to give him. Secondly, you've failed to address what your beef is in general. If you don't think Kubes was a good hire, say so but saying that after one year is absurd by NFL standards. Espedcially one where a coach is given a QB and inherits a franchise is disarray. On top of that your theory doesn't make any sense. AGAIN, if only a weak minded man would have taken a rigged job..Carr being the QB, then are you saying the second coach of this franchise was doomed for failure and was a pushover to start?To me you are just blaming anyone you can get your hands on for a season that wasn't going to be any good to start.

I'll say this much...if all of your circular arguing is meant to say...."we shouldn't have resigned Dave and VY or another QB should have been drafted"...well, you aren't alone..join the crowd.. but NO coach was going to change that and that is what you are missing. You could replace Kubiak with anyone and your argument would still be the same. The decision was preordained. McNair made the decision and no hire would change that. End of story. BUT we ALL agree he tail is on the line with Schaub.

You are thinking about this way too much and giving Kubiak a free pass on the Carr decision in year 5.

There is nothing circular about what I am saying.

I don't wanna change your mind about anything, just showing you a different perspective to look at Kubiak.

It's your choice to look at it how every many ways you want to.

I see what you are saying, and I understand what you are saying and maybe agree with it a little bit. But when I boil it down, see the top of this post.

Just showing another perspective to evaluate Kubiak.

Just like when I was told I was being a jerk (negative rep too) because I showed a perspective that we overpaid for Moulds. It looks like my perspective was right on then.

It's not the questions you answer that kill your idea, but the questions you fail to ask. You need many perspectives to make a good decision.
 
Haven't read the entire debate but I'll throw out a few chips.

1) Someone was talking about Schaub never being an elite QB. I agree with that. But I don't consider Matt Hasselbeck an elite QB either, and obviously he's 'good enough' in the context of being an integral part of a machine.

2) Kubiak's future is definitley tied to Schaub's success. If Schaub's not getting it done by late '09, there's a very good chance that neither (mainly Schaub because of the bonus) won't see '10.

3) Kubiak didn't have full control over who his QB was going to be in '06. [ an old chip that doesn't need to be debated any more (please) but it's germane to the conversation]
 
I agree with hollywood on this one. Kubiak is paid to coach and last year, when things weren't going so well, he would constantly say things like: "This one's on us as coaches, this one's on me, this is my fault etc."

That came across as disingenuous at the time and it still struck me the wrong way. If it's your fault Carr wasn't ready to play, why are you here and why is he gone?

Well, what he was really saying was: "This is my fault that I thought I could coach this guy. I saw the mistakes he was making and I thought I could cure him and I was wrong. I mean, come on, how hard is it to throw the ball to someone standing wide open right in front of you? So, I'm going to get rid of him and bring someone else in. Hopefully, they'll be able to see the open guys."
 
My point was:

Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

What can you show me that he has done that is successful in the QB department while coaching the Texans? Nothing except for a lot of glowing hope on Schaub.

Carr came out of the gate with an improved accuracy. His first six games led the league in QB rating, whatever stats are worth. Clearly Kubiak's work with Carr was making an impact out of the gate.

Did Kubiak know that the previous regime wouldn't let him read defenses and call audibles?

Did Kubiak know that the previous OC's had to 'dumb down' the playbook for the QB?

Obviously, these are rhetorical questions that we'll never know the answers to, but clearly some improvement was in the works.

But put sprinkles on a dog turd and guess what you have? A prettier dog turd. Maybe Kubiak thought it was a brownie before he worked with DC, who knows. (this paragraph is purely sarcastic in nature, before the lovers decide to attempt to use it against me...)

You can see Kubiak trying to work his magic throughout the season. He tried everything, from gentle lessons to full on hard-nosed benching. I don't think Carr wanted to be here to begin with, and maybe he blew smoke up Kubiak's butt in the 2006 off-season.

But to say that he was completely ineffective is simplifying a complex situation. Carr was up and down all year, but he did look alright at some times, horrible at others. Can a coach teach consistency to a QB that has serious issues? I think Kubiak underestimated Carr's problems and overestimated his own ability to coach Carr out of those issues.
 
My point was:

Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

What can you show me that he has done that is successful in the QB department while coaching the Texans? Nothing except for a lot of glowing hope on Schaub.

Then you write...



You are thinking about this way too much and giving Kubiak a free pass on the Carr decision in year 5.

There is nothing circular about what I am saying.

I don't wanna change your mind about anything, just showing you a different perspective to look at Kubiak.

It's your choice to look at it how every many ways you want to.

I see what you are saying, and I understand what you are saying and maybe agree with it a little bit. But when I boil it down, see the top of this post.

Just showing another perspective to evaluate Kubiak.

Just like when I was told I was being a jerk (negative rep too) because I showed a perspective that we overpaid for Moulds. It looks like my perspective was right on then.

It's not the questions you answer that kill your idea, but the questions you fail to ask. You need many perspectives to make a good decision.

First of all I don't neg rep people for opinions that they believe in. Just not my style. I just didn't get your theory on Kubes considering any other coach we brought in was going to be in the same situation. There was no getting around that. Its my opinion that Kubiak did all he could do knowing full well that the experiment would have a chance to fail and then he could bring in his own players. Carr wasn't his guy and any coach we hired had to realize this was the situation. I don't see how you blame a coach for working with damaged goods while only being an NFL head coach for 1 year. You can't fix that which was already doomed for failure. As I stated 2 other times..lipstick on a pig. The team improved slightly and we are at a point where we would have been at in the first place...new QB, etc. Its the perspective of how we got there that differs. Again, Schaub is on Kubes watch and is the real measuring stick.
 
:specnatz:


signs094.gif
 
Thats strange that there is an article on this . The first thing my Cowboy Fan Cousin (hes a second cousin , thank God) said when we traded for Schaub was " Its gonna be Rob Johnson Pt. 2 " . I hope hes wrong . I think he will be though . I hope so , so I can rub it in his face . :texflag:
 
Had Schaub been traded to a media darling team, he would have been compared to Brett Favre. A young Falcon QB who wasn't going to start, dealt to a QB hungry team for the equivalent of a 1st round pick. But, Schaub went to Houston. So we have to dig up the worst possible comparison. So typical.
Very very nice indeed!!!

Rep sent your way Lucky!
 
Schaub has a lot to prove. His intangibles this off season and hype surrounding him got everybody excited. His training camp performance has done nothing to say he really is the next coming of Favre. With an unimproved oline in front of him, he may have a long year and it may be difficult to judge him fairly until the oline is shored up ...... hmmm ........

Bears 20
Texans 10
 
Schaub has a lot to prove. His intangibles this off season and hype surrounding him got everybody excited. His training camp performance has done nothing to say he really is the next coming of Favre. With an unimproved oline in front of him, he may have a long year and it may be difficult to judge him fairly until the oline is shored up ...... hmmm ........

Bears 20
Texans 10


I just now figured out that maddongmrb is in the Troll Patrol with caddy. Or maybe he really is caddy...
 
But put sprinkles on a dog turd and guess what you have? A prettier dog turd.

Exactly, that's why Carr's stats were meaningless.

The offense in Carr's 5 years with the Texans struggled at:

1. To score more than 15 points in a game
2. Run the 2 minute drill
3. Get a first down with the game on the line
4. Make big plays

Carr was exactly the same under Kubiak in 2006 and Capers in 2004 and 2005, just in a different offense with better stats with Kubiak. The offense as a whole was no better, particularly in the points scored category.

I think Schaub will be just fine for us, but that doesn't mean it's not a gutsy call with some serious uncertainity. Take that into consideration how Kubiak has performed with Carr in his first year, I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling. It concerns me a bit.

But, it's just a perspective.

GO TEXANS!!!!
 
Schaub has a lot to prove. His intangibles this off season and hype surrounding him got everybody excited. His training camp performance has done nothing to say he really is the next coming of Favre. With an unimproved oline in front of him, he may have a long year and it may be difficult to judge him fairly until the oline is shored up ...... hmmm ........

Bears 20
Texans 10

Who cares about the score of a worthless preseason game? The whole point of the game is to evaluate players.

I want to see if Schaub does indeed make good decisions, if Green still has some left in the tank, will Walter step up. I'll worry about the final score on Sept. 9th.

Let's see what was the preseason record of last year's Super Bowl champs again? Hmmmm.
 
I just now figured out that maddongmrb is in the Troll Patrol with caddy. Or maybe he really is caddy...

...so true, Wonger, but these posters won't go away! We thought we'd lose some after Capers, and the rest after Carr but there still hanging around...

I don't care what some posters say about there is no corelation betwen how Schaub is being treated and the way Carr was 'worshipped' for 5 yrs. These posters want Schaub or whoever play qb to fail--plain and simple!...a week did not go by-let alone his first game-and these posters are dogin' Matt..
 
Had Schaub been traded to a media darling team, he would have been compared to Brett Favre. A young Falcon QB who wasn't going to start, dealt to a QB hungry team for the equivalent of a 1st round pick. But, Schaub went to Houston. So we have to dig up the worst possible comparison. So typical.

Best post in the thread.

The media has no incentive to say anything positive about the Texans. As far as they're concerned, we're bottom feeders that make bad decisions on selecting talent. Winning is the only thing that will change that perception and attitude.

Schaub has a lot to prove.

...

Bears 20
Texans 10

The whole team has a lot to prove.

Pre-season scores = fool's gold. :victory:

I think Schaub will be just fine for us...

That's not the feeling I get when chatting with you. Sometimes it feels like we're talking you off of a ledge. :shades:
 
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

Cutting Carr makes him a QB guru in my opinion, even if it came a year too late.
 
This is the part that sttod out to me and will make the difference in Schaub V. Johnson

"and eventually alienated the Bills fans with his laid-back California surfer-dude persona."

I think we had some of that at QB in the past. If you are going to be a success in this league at QB you are going to have to make sacrafices and that included time with your family and friends. I dont know who Andre Johnson's comments were aimed at but he said in the past we had players who clearly only played to cash a check! He said there were no players on the team this year that seemed to possess this attitude. Only time will tell but I feel allot better about the leadership skills and work ethic that Schaub has shown in his years as a backup studying the game in the ATL and what he has show here, over what we saw from Carr.
 
I am going with lucky's post... I hopefully see a silver lining in this

The NFL staff has identified plays or events that may have altered the course of history. Each Tuesday and Saturday throughout the offseason, we will be tackling a different scenario and speculate on how things might have gone differently.

Brett Favre recently announced he would return for a 17th season. Although the future Hall of Famer looks poised to retire a Green Bay Packer, he cannot boast of having spent his entire career with the same team.

Brett Favre didn't enjoy a very happy rookie season in Atlanta.

After starting at quarterback for Southern Miss for four years, Favre was selected in the second round, 33rd overall, in the 1991 draft by the Atlanta Falcons. New York Jets general manager Ron Wolf had intended to take Favre, but the Falcons owned the pick before the Jets'.

Amazingly, Atlanta coach Jerry Glanville didn't approve of the drafting of Favre, saying it would take a plane crash for him to put the rookie into the game. Favre attempted only five passes his entire rookie season and promptly was placed on the trading block.

Wolf, who left New York to become the general manager of the Packers after the 1991 season, didn't hesitate, even overruling doctors who diagnosed Favre with the same degenerative hip condition that ended Bo Jackson's career.

Green Bay surrendered a first-round pick for the youngster, who became the starting quarterback in the third game of the 1992 season (Sept. 20, 1992) -- and has started every game since.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2772472
 
That's not the feeling I get when chatting with you. Sometimes it feels like we're talking you off of a ledge. :shades:

Well then, I did a poor job in communicating my point because I was no where near the ledge.

Just objectively (as I see things) seeing things without the Texans rose glasses.
 
Didn't Kubes get the "QB Guru" by taking claim for John Elway's career?

Brister= Bust
Brian Griese= Bust
Plummer= Had his moments
Carr= Bust

If Kubes knew he had a shot at Golden Boy Quinn, I'm not sure they make the trade for Schaub, unless he thinks his job is on the line already.

Brian Griese and Jake Plummer actually had revitalized careers in Denver, in terms of where they had been and how Kubiak and Shanahan helped each of them.

Nobody gets it right 100% of the time, but Kubiak has a better overall track record than most. Please remember that he inherited a BIG train-wreck-of-a-team from Capers...surely we can agree on that, right?

Hope and Lack of Hope are fighting each other right now. I choose to "hope" that the progress I saw in 2006 will get better each year. But I see a lot of posters who lack hope. A lot of posters have the Capers era notched in their memory, and I just choose to believe that Kubiak knows what he's doing.

Just my two cents...
 
Certainly an unpopular take in these parts, but nevertheless accurate IMO.
And if Carr's retention was basically McNair call, for the sake of Kubiaks credibiltity we should have got a more definitive disclosure from the owner.
But I do totally support the trade for Schaub. Very expensive and very risky but worth it, really necessary assuming Schaubs our guy.

According to the Chronicle, the primary interview question from the owner was:

"Can we win a Super Bowl with David Carr?"

Now is it just me or shouldn't that have been a more logical, more total-teamcentric question like:

"what changes do we need to make to become a winner? Be honest, no player is sacred."
or
"what's your plan for making my team a winning franchise?"

that tells me everything. You won't get a much more definitive read from an owner regarding his "priorities" than that.
 
Didn't Kubes get the "QB Guru" by taking claim for John Elway's career?

Brister= Bust
Brian Griese= Bust
Plummer= Had his moments
Carr= Bust

If Kubes knew he had a shot at Golden Boy Quinn, I'm not sure they make the trade for Schaub, unless he thinks his job is on the line already.

Am I the only one on this board that thinks that Quinn is a media-generated, over-rated, "Golden Boy"?
 
Y'all can sit here and argue the what ifs all you want. I'm going to point my thoughts and hopes to the glass half-full option. The universe will give you what you ask. I ask everyday that this year's Houston Texans will improve upon last year and make the nay-sayers pause before they speak. :texflag:

I think it's working. Over the last two weeks, I think I've seen about 20 red, white and blue Texas license plates. Not remarkable for y'all, but I live in Portland, OR. The tides are turning gentlemen... can you feel it? Or are you just plain scared to hope for a great football team? :cowboy1:

:fans:
 
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

What you are doing is putting Carr's failure to respond to teaching all on the teacher.

Did it ever occur to you that the student has to put in some work to make the effort a success?

That's like saying if you have a good teacher, every student that goes thru his class will come out fully versed on whatever the subject matter is, whether he studies extra or does the required homework or not.

And is it truly realistic to think that FOUR years of bad habits can be erased in one off-season when you're dealing with a student that refuses to put in additional time "away from class".

The following is from an ESPN the Mag article about Carr written by Seth Wickersham in July...

Carr needed help, which seemed to arrive after the 2005 season. Capers was fired, and Houston again had the first overall pick. When owner Bob McNair interviewed potential replacements, the first question he posed wasn't whom the team should draft but how they were going to use Reggie Bush. Broncos offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak had all the right answers. Kubiak even told McNair he was sure the Texans could win a Super Bowl with Carr as their quarterback. So McNair picked up Carr's $8 million option. And the quarterback grew hopeful about the prospect of working with John Elway's tutor and Matt Leinart's safety valve.

But everyone knows what happened next: Houston opted for defensive end Mario Williams. "People are always going to ask why." Carr says, "and I'm one of those people."
Still, with Kubiak there was reason to be optimistic. The new coach taught Carr to slow down, to breathe as he read his progressions, to trust. Then a starting lineman went down in September--meaning Carr would have to set up behind a patched pocket for the fifth year in a row--and the QB reverted to his old ways. He knew it but was too beaten down to do anything about it. He had happy feet, rushed his passes, wondered as he threw whether his release was high enough. Carr was, he says, "just trying to survive."
While Carr was publicly applauded for leading the NFL in completion percentage, his coaches privately dismissed it. According to one former staffer, Kubiak and offensive coordinator Mike Sherman estimated that Carr's panicked progressions cost Johnson at least 500 receiving yards.
...it got so bad that other players in the huddle could hear coaches yelling at Carr through his helmet earpiece.

Bottom Line:
When the teacher's lessons don't take, is it always the teacher's fault?? Doesn't the student have some responsibility for his own success or failure??
 
Y'all can sit here and argue the what ifs all you want. I'm going to point my thoughts and hopes to the glass half-full option. The universe will give you what you ask. I ask everyday that this year's Houston Texans will improve upon last year and make the nay-sayers pause before they speak. :texflag:

I think it's working. Over the last two weeks, I think I've seen about 20 red, white and blue Texas license plates. Not remarkable for y'all, but I live in Portland, OR. The tides are turning gentlemen... can you feel it? Or are you just plain scared to hope for a great football team? :cowboy1:

:fans:

Man, I would have thought that was total Seahawk country!

oh, and I ain't skeerd neether...
:texflag:
 
According to the Chronicle, the primary interview question from the owner was:

"Can we win a Super Bowl with David Carr?"

Now is it just me or shouldn't that have been a more logical, more total-teamcentric question like:

"what changes do we need to make to become a winner? Be honest, no player is sacred."
or
"what's your plan for making my team a winning franchise?"

that tells me everything. You won't get a much more definitive read from an owner regarding his "priorities" than that.
I dunno, but I just think that McNair owes it to Kubiak and really most important of all to the fan base to clarify the decision-maker(s) on Carrs
retention ? Arguably it was the single biggest personnel decision in the life of this franchise. Everyone has an opinion about that and some are downright smug in their confidance about how it went down, but really all of us here are just speculating because we're on the outside looking inside.
NcNair is no doubt an astute business man but if he can't make similar decisions on matters involving football, I'm not too worried. But if Kubiak is as much at fault as McNair on the Carr call, then I'm worried.
McNairs silence, or lack of clarification on this makes one wonder if his motive is not to cover Kubiaks back and thereby ultimately his own for hiring the guy whos strong-suit was thought to be as a QB guru ?
 
Y'all can sit here and argue the what ifs all you want. I'm going to point my thoughts and hopes to the glass half-full option. The universe will give you what you ask. I ask everyday that this year's Houston Texans will improve upon last year and make the nay-sayers pause before they speak.

I think it's working. Over the last two weeks, I think I've seen about 20 red, white and blue Texas license plates. Not remarkable for y'all, but I live in Portland, OR. The tides are turning gentlemen... can you feel it? Or are you just plain scared to hope for a great football team?


I'm with you.

Not scared here. lol
 
I dunno, but I just think that McNair owes it to Kubiak and really most important of all to the fan base to clarify the decision-maker(s) on Carrs
retention ? Arguably it was the single biggest personnel decision in the life of this franchise. Everyone has an opinion about that and some are downright smug in their confidance about how it went down, but really all of us here are just speculating because we're on the outside looking inside.
NcNair is no doubt an astute business man but if he can't make similar decisions on matters involving football, I'm not too worried. But if Kubiak is as much at fault as McNair on the Carr call, then I'm worried.
McNairs silence, or lack of clarification on this makes one wonder if his motive is not to cover Kubiaks back and thereby ultimately his own for hiring the guy whos strong-suit was thought to be as a QB guru ?

I agree on the differing opinions but I haven't seen anyone be smug about it. Most that believe that McNair laid it out for any coach are just going off the exact same story that most insiders have told. If it was just John McClain or someone random I would hesitate but everyone from Mort to McClain to every piece I've read claims that it was a prereq for the coach to take the job. I'd think that if someone took the job and was pumping themselves up their answer to "can you win with Carr" would be "heck yes." As someone said above I think Kubes best move yet was to keep throwing Carr into the fire knowing that he wasn't progressing. It allowed him to cut ties and to move forward. That's just my opinion. I don't think McNair is completely going to tell the story but he has said that it wasn't a prereq BUT that he asked all the candidates could they win with Carr(see below)..that is a leading question in my book. What are they going to say?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/4404173.html

"First, to the key decisions. I asked him about rumors that last winter he wasn't going to hire a head coach who didn't say glowing things about Carr.

"Not at all," he said. "In fact, I was just reviewing a notebook. I went back and looked at the interviews with the seven coaches. I asked every one of them one question: 'Can David Carr take us to the Super Bowl?' Every one of them said yes. One of them went so far as to say, 'If you make a change, if you draft Vince Young, I'm not coming to your team.'

"In his view, it would take Vince two or three years to get ready. David wasn't perfect at that time, but every one of them thought he had the ability and potential. They all felt they could get that out of him."
 
Well then, I did a poor job in communicating my point because I was no where near the ledge.

Just objectively (as I see things) seeing things without the Texans rose glasses.

What does mean ? Texans rose glasses ?

So because we see positive things from the team and areas where we think they have improved we have rose colored glasses ?

If expecting improvement out of our team this year because of some of the things we have observed and witnessed is drinking the kool-aid, then bottoms up....

It's not like our optimism is unfounded...I think most of us actually have legit reasons to expect an improved team....
 
First of all, considering the first team is only going to play a few series this weekend and pre-season games are always a bit vanilla, any judgment this Saturday should be aimed at some individual players challenging for spots (and even that should be taken with a grain of salt). Looking at the score is even worse, since Schaub and all the other newbies may have little to do with it. Otherwise it's like judging a pitcher after his first performance of spring training... just plain silly.

As far as Carr goes, you can't just say "well Carr still sucked last year, so Kubiak must suck," without any consideration for what Kubiak tried to do and what Carr was able to absorb. From all reports, Kubiak really pushed Carr much harder than he was ever pushed with Capers. He tried to force him to go through progressions which Capers didn't do. He put emphasis on his footwork which Capers didn't do (I remember reading somewhere that Carr would get all these things down in practice, but then forget them in a game).

Most reports say that Kubiak was asked if he could win with Carr. No one disputes that Carr has great physical ability, and many a coach have said (and continue to say) that he should be able to become a good QB. But you can't know about his mental ability until you get on the field with him. Kubiak probably saw the physical ability, saw the failures of the previous coaches, and thought, "hey, I know this QB stuff pretty well. I think I can fix it."

Was he right? No. But that's called confidence, and perhaps a bit of cockiness, and it's one of the aspects of a good coach. Another aspect of a good coach is knowing when to move on and not turning this into a science project which will negatively affect the rest of the team. Yeah, Kubiak was wrong, but he at least had the cojones to man up and say he was wrong and that the team should move on.

He should get some credit for that.
 
It was not reported, if they did. Here are the candidates I remember being interviewed:

Kubiak
Jerry Gray
Cam Cameron
Al Saunders
Scott Linehan
[SIZE=-1]Kirk Ferentz (maybe???)
[/SIZE]Pat Hill (Carr's college coach)

I think the Texans interviewed a couple of their own assistants as a courtesy. Can't remember which ones.

Thanks for the list.

I figure they would have taken a run at Mangini, since he is a 3-4 guru, but the Jets may have already had him locked up.
 
Thanks for the list.

I figure they would have taken a run at Mangini, since he is a 3-4 guru, but the Jets may have already had him locked up.

Im pretty sure the Texans were redy to move away from the 3-4. A lot of our D players had been complaining about "playing out of position"

The 4-3 was something media and players were all hoping for the Texans
 
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