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State of the O-line

cuppacoffee said:
He's just giving us all something to chew on until the season starts. . :stirpot:

TKs job last year but he's taking it easy on us this year.

Looking at the time stamps on some of the postings I wonder when some of you guys ever sleep.

:coffee:
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I work nights, so sleep is a fleeting thing
 
Ideally would like to see youth movement come to fruition with starting line-up of Davenport LT, Howard LG, Martin C, Rankin RG and Scharping RT. Give until end of season. Davenport is most polished and game one ready going into year 3. Howard can be a dominant LG and really help seal off inside lanes to Watson well as pulling guard in run game. Martin is the old man heading into his 4th season, needs to stay healthy and get stronger @ the point going into final contract year. Rankin is a Swiss Army knife that also needs to stay healthy and earn a starting role, best in run blocking but can pass pro on the inside as well. Scharping is a tackle, has length and competitive attitude needed to hold down right side.
 
beerlover said:
Ideally would like to see youth movement come to fruition with starting line-up of Davenport LT, Howard LG, Martin C, Rankin RG and Scharping RT. Give until end of season. Davenport is most polished and game one ready going into year 3. Howard can be a dominant LG and really help seal off inside lanes to Watson well as pulling guard in run game. Martin is the old man heading into his 4th season, needs to stay healthy and get stronger @ the point going into final contract year. Rankin is a Swiss Army knife that also needs to stay healthy and earn a starting role, best in run blocking but can pass pro on the inside as well. Scharping is a tackle, has length and competitive attitude needed to hold down right side.
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That's an interesting projection and just might work. But there's a lot of practice and preseason games to go through before the starting lineup is named for the first game. Even that lineup may be changed by game 2, knowing OB.

I think there will be plenty of surprises by then. Guys will get nicked up, may have other unanticipated issues, or look better or worse than expected. But it's going to be interesting and stir up a lot of good discussion.

And, no matter how good they are or aren't this year, it's a given that Howard & Scharping will be better next year due to the S&C coaches and getting more used to the Texans' schemes.

Speaking of the S&C coaches, I can only imagine the intimidating push these guys are getting from Cushing.
 
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cuppacoffee said:
He's just giving us all something to chew on until the season starts. . :stirpot:

TKs job last year but he's taking it easy on us this year.

Looking at the time stamps on some of the postings I wonder when some of you guys ever sleep.

:coffee:
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Switched over to nights for my last 2 weeks in the field.
 
beerlover said:
Ideally would like to see youth movement come to fruition with starting line-up of Davenport LT, Howard LG, Martin C, Rankin RG and Scharping RT. Give until end of season. Davenport is most polished and game one ready going into year 3. Howard can be a dominant LG and really help seal off inside lanes to Watson well as pulling guard in run game. Martin is the old man heading into his 4th season, needs to stay healthy and get stronger @ the point going into final contract year. Rankin is a Swiss Army knife that also needs to stay healthy and earn a starting role, best in run blocking but can pass pro on the inside as well. Scharping is a tackle, has length and competitive attitude needed to hold down right side.
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You're being very risky here because we all should know Bill O'Brien philosophy. His offense is very complex and it takes time to learn. You're asking these youngsters to be able to change up the game plan every single game.
 
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cuppacoffee said:
Up to this point nothing has changed but the roster. The narratives focus (mine) is on the fact that Howard is a better run blocker than Dillard, at this point in time.

Steel wanted Dillard, I think Howard was the better choice for our needs.

It will not be settled here but on the playing field.

So Kramer wrote a book that is now the pro-football coaches training manual? ( I haven't read it but I remain skeptical nonetheless.) Doubt Lombardi let Kramer design his game plans.

Kramer, a great player, was the beneficiary of Lombardi's power sweep football, not vice versa.

:coffee:
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Kramer wrote a book preaching win your individual match-up, be consistently good in your discipline, and spend your time studying game film. It’s simple stuff but so few guys spend the necessary time on game film to win their matchup’s consistently.

Anyway, that’s just my two cents.
 
Texansballer74 said:
You're being very risky here because we all should know Bill O'Brien philosophy. His offense is very complex and it takes time to learn. You're asking these youngsters to be able to change up the game plan every single game.
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Key words, ideally and by end of season. Clearly feel they are best five OL on this roster by time all is said and done. Continuity a key factor in performance as well.
 
Texansballer74 said:
You have to study more than just a senior bowl game. Bwhahaha come on Steel
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What have you studied against 2nd tier competiton that makes you think this guy will be ready yr 1 much less week 1? Not saying he cant improve because he has talent. But against top talent at the Sr. Bowl he was very avg. IMHO
 
Texansballer74 said:
You have to study more than just a senior bowl game. Bwhahaha come on Steel
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What have you studied against 2nd tier competiton that makes you think this guy will be ready yr 1 much less week 1? Not saying he cant improve because he has talent. But against top talent at the Sr. Bowl he was very avg. IMHO
 
steelbtexan said:
What have you studied against 2nd tier competiton that makes you think this guy will be ready yr 1 much less week 1? Not saying he cant improve because he has talent. But against top talent at the Sr. Bowl he was very avg. IMHO
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Do you know there's a lot of players that come from small schools thriving in the NFL.
 
Texansballer74 said:
Do you know there's a lot of players that come from small schools thriving in the NFL.
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Likelihood of that happening is much slimmer. Best practice should be take best prepared and coached, battle tested under the most difficult challenges.

These (draft picks) are what this organization sees as value, less scouted and publicized, strong work ethic, that other teams would be interested in too but later in the draft. Gaine/O’Brian believed enough in their athletic ability, size, speed and length plus coach ability they would be easier to mold. Also easier to resign next contract.

Just shows how every organization does things a different way. Texans are very invested in developing players to fit their scheme and clubhouse well as fitting in community. I see nothing wrong other than your passing on clearly more talented and developed prospects so there will be more pain and growth up front, but if they’re right, and can ride this out, Texan Worthy could really mean something special.
 
beerlover said:
Likelihood of that happening is much slimmer. Best practice should be take best prepared and coached, battle tested under the most difficult challenges.

These (draft picks) are what this organization sees as value, less scouted and publicized, strong work ethic, that other teams would be interested in too but later in the draft. Gaine/O’Brian believed enough in their athletic ability, size, speed and length plus coach ability they would be easier to mold. Also easier to resign next contract.

Just shows how every organization does things a different way. Texans are very invested in developing players to fit their scheme and clubhouse well as fitting in community. I see nothing wrong other than your passing on clearly more talented and developed prospects so there will be more pain and growth up front, but if they’re right, and can ride this out, Texan Worthy could really mean something special.
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Re-sign is always 1st and foremost when it comes to the Texans org.

If the get it right, which is something they haven't done in over a decade and a half. Texans Worthy means only picking choir boys and leaving better talent on the table come draft time. This has gotten this franchise two 1-1's and what should've been a 1-4. Good luck with this, until they hange the way they go about acquiring players in both FA/Draft you can expect more of the same old same old. I hope I'm wrong and Watson can overcome the top to bottom Texans orgs ineptness.
 
HaveMercy said:
I'm not a particularly good source of historical details, but it seems to me that the skillset of Kubes' OL was geared towards Zone Blocking. OB wanted a different kind of OL.

Then again, I could be wrong.
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Eh... replace Chris Myers with Ben Jones, Brooks, Wade Smith, I think were very well suited to power. Duane Brown was more of a zone guy back in the day. But he filled into a fine power blocker.

Newton was the only one not suited to power blocking when BO'b got here.
 
thunderkyss said:
Eh... replace Chris Myers with Ben Jones, Brooks, Wade Smith, I think were very well suited to power. Duane Brown was more of a zone guy back in the day. But he filled into a fine power blocker.

Newton was the only one not suited to power blocking when BO'b got here.
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Could be reason Texans didn't move up for Andre Dillard in 1st. Dillard fits zone/gap scheme, that’s what Philly runs but definitely not O’Brian. Again it’s system fit. Howard is a better fit, so let’s get over Dillard already. But here is the rub, Watson would work beautifully in a zone scheme like Kubiak used. Careful what you ask for!
 
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beerlover said:
Likelihood of that happening is much slimmer. Best practice should be take best prepared and coached, battle tested under the most difficult challenges.

These (draft picks) are what this organization sees as value, less scouted and publicized, strong work ethic, that other teams would be interested in too but later in the draft. Gaine/O’Brian believed enough in their athletic ability, size, speed and length plus coach ability they would be easier to mold. Also easier to resign next contract.

Just shows how every organization does things a different way. Texans are very invested in developing players to fit their scheme and clubhouse well as fitting in community. I see nothing wrong other than your passing on clearly more talented and developed prospects so there will be more pain and growth up front, but if they’re right, and can ride this out, Texan Worthy could really mean something special.
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Agreed and also I'm wondering if there isn't another factor on why they are building everything from the ground up with rookies. I was reading an article about the Viking and how they are in the QB trap. Basically you have to spend so much to sign your QB that there is no money left for the rest of the team so to win you either do it while the QB is on a rookie contract or you shuffle things around and do it with most of the rest of the team on rookie contracts. Unless you're the Pats and then Brady just lets you restructure his contract to be more team friendly and he takes his pay day on years when no one else is getting a big pay day.

I'm wondering if that's not what BG is doing now, they know the team couldn't be serious contenders, and we can argue all day on who's fault that is, before Watson had to get paid so now they are building everything around that and rolling money over to his contract year with most of the team on rookie contracts. It would explain why so many 1 year deals and why they are hording draft picks so much. Ironically its very similar to what the Astros did, for those that praised them and said Texan's should learn to build a team like them, except for the completely tanked seasons. Astro's knew what rookies were coming that they wanted to draft years down the line and they also knew years before that 2017 was the target year for their WS run.

Article linked below.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...ate-to-escape-the-nfls-worst-quarterback-trap
 
maverick512000 said:
Agreed and also I'm wondering if there isn't another factor on why they are building everything from the ground up with rookies. I was reading an article about the Viking and how they are in the QB trap. Basically you have to spend so much to sign your QB that there is no money left for the rest of the team so to win you either do it while the QB is on a rookie contract or you shuffle things around and do it with most of the rest of the team on rookie contracts. Unless you're the Pats and then Brady just lets you restructure his contract to be more team friendly and he takes his pay day on years when no one else is getting a big pay day.

I'm wondering if that's not what BG is doing now, they know the team couldn't be serious contenders, and we can argue all day on who's fault that is, before Watson had to get paid so now they are building everything around that and rolling money over to his contract year with most of the team on rookie contracts. It would explain why so many 1 year deals and why they are hording draft picks so much. Ironically its very similar to what the Astros did, for those that praised them and said Texan's should learn to build a team like them, except for the completely tanked seasons. Astro's knew what rookies were coming that they wanted to draft years down the line and they also knew years before that 2017 was the target year for their WS run.

Article linked below.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...ate-to-escape-the-nfls-worst-quarterback-trap
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Good post

But the Texans are run nothing like the Texans are being run. Most teams try to win championships while their QB's are on their rookie deals. Sea/Philly/Rams/Browns etc...
 
I think most teams are trying to win championships. Patriots, Saints, Pittsburgh, Chargers are not rookie deal QBs but try. Jets, Cardinals, they have rookies but too far away to go nuts... Don't just point to the few that match your view of the world. I think teams try to compete for championships, and go the extra mile when they think they are close. My take is that BG did not think we are close and wanted to build the base some more while keeping us competitive. I think he did that without sacrificing the draft capital (comp picks and no trades) or salary cap flexibility. We have extra picks and cap room. I would think by next season we maybe need to overspend if these last two draft classes start looking like the solid base we all hope for. I agree with BG if he thought we were at least a year away. We just have not had the depth to make it, and needed to rebuild ST's, OL, and DB's since he got the job
 
steelbtexan said:
See I would rather be bad for awhile and have a shot at greatness, rather than be stuck in perpetual mediocrity.
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How are they having a shot a greatness when they're still stuck at the bottom every year?

And if the Texans were that bad you would crucify them more than you do now.
 
Texansballer74 said:
How are they having a shot a greatness when they're still stuck at the bottom every year?

And if the Texans were that bad you would crucify them more than you do now.
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We will see how they do over the next 3 yrs with a GM who only cares about winning. A young and learning QB on his rookie deal will take them as far as they can go. I'm betting they do well.

This is the difference between good leadership (Dorsey) and bad leadership. (Brown)
 
steelbtexan said:
We will see how they do over the next 3 yrs with a GM who only cares about winning. A young and learning QB on his rookie deal will take them as far as they can go. I'm betting they do well.

This is the difference between good leadership (Dorsey) and bad leadership. (Brown)
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Three years is not promised to us. We might not be here for that. But the fact that they've struck out so many years with top draft picks and FA was alarming . But hey law of average says they will get it right one year. Just like the Jaguars did. Another team you hyped up thinking they were on the right path. Bwhahaha
 
JB said:
How do you tell the difference?
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This yr will be the beginning of the tell. Getting the best players possible on your team is a good start. Dorsey did that with the Chiefs and it certainly looks like he's doing this with the Browns.
 
Texansballer74 said:
Three years is not promised to us. We might not be here for that. But the fact that they've struck out so many years with top draft picks and FA was alarming . But hey law of average says they will get it right one year. Just like the Jaguars did. Another team you hyped up thinking they were on the right path. Bwhahaha
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Different people calling the shots right now for the Browns. People who have built winning orgs.

With Foles in at QB I wouldn't be so quick to crap on the Jags. They still have a very good defense.
 
steelbtexan said:
This yr will be the beginning of the tell. Getting the best players possible on your team is a good start. Dorsey did that with the Chiefs and it certainly looks like he's doing this with the Browns.
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This is very subjective. You could easily make the argument they have done everything possible to get the best players. They put in offers to both Trent Brown and Bell. Bell suckered the Jets into making an offer even they were having second thoughts about and he wanted to play against Steelers as much as possible anyway.

As for Brown I know you think he is the greatest thing to happened to the OT position since the dawn of football but objectively speaking he just isn’t worth the stupid money the Raiders threw at him. Just because a team is willing to overpay doesn’t mean the they are right to do so and, by its very definition, doesn’t mean the player will be worth it.
 
maverick512000 said:
This is very subjective. You could easily make the argument they have done everything possible to get the best players. They put in offers to both Trent Brown and Bell. Bell suckered the Jets into making an offer even they were having second thoughts about and he wanted to play against Steelers as much as possible anyway.

As for Brown I know you think he is the greatest thing to happened to the OT position since the dawn of football but objectively speaking he just isn’t worth the stupid money the Raiders threw at him. Just because a team is willing to overpay doesn’t mean the they are right to do so and, by its very definition, doesn’t mean the player will be worth it.
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The GM Maccagnan and the owner alone discussed it and were then complicate in picking Bell.............while the HC Gace (having the position for just a couple of months) was told nothing about the deal until it was made (similar to another past team's structure of doing things). Next thing you know, there is a war going on in the organization when Gace, who felt undermined because he absolutely did not want to sign Bell, and wanted nothing to do with Bell and what he felt was a ludicrous contract...............and Maccagnan is abruptly fired.
 
maverick512000 said:
This is very subjective. You could easily make the argument they have done everything possible to get the best players. They put in offers to both Trent Brown and Bell.
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Yeah. Subjective. We put in offers & came away with Matt Kalil. That's our best effort in two years to land a starting caliber LT.

The Browns have added Akeem Hunt, Jarvis Landry, Odell Beckham Jr, & there's more named talent they've added this offseason. You'd think Daniel Snyder was over there making it rain.

I don't think the Browns are going to win the Super Bowl anytime soon. I think they're more likely to implode the way the Eagles "dream team" popped without much ado.

But it's not that hard to understand what steelbtexan means when he lists the Browns among those "trying to win"
 
maverick512000 said:
This is very subjective. You could easily make the argument they have done everything possible to get the best players. They put in offers to both Trent Brown and Bell. Bell suckered the Jets into making an offer even they were having second thoughts about and he wanted to play against Steelers as much as possible anyway.

As for Brown I know you think he is the greatest thing to happened to the OT position since the dawn of football but objectively speaking he just isn’t worth the stupid money the Raiders threw at him. Just because a team is willing to overpay doesn’t mean the they are right to do so and, by its very definition, doesn’t mean the player will be worth it.
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The Texans never pay top $$$$ to get top FA's.

They also dont draft the most talented players

Ever heard of the phrase #NotTexansWorthy?
 
JB said:
But the Browns have
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I didn't know that Brown added OBJ/Vernon/Richardson/Hunt/Burnett/Greedy Williams? All of these guys were 1-1?

This is what a team trying to win does.

True they got Mayfield/Garrett 1-1 and thanks to the former GM 1-4/2-4.
 
steelbtexan said:
The Texans never pay top $$$$ to get top FA's.

They also dont draft the most talented players

Ever heard of the phrase #NotTexansWorthy?
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Watson, Watt, Hopkins could go on. Yes they have some busts, maybe more than their share, but drafting is always a crap shoot. If you are talking about this draft then I will go on record now saying I think Dillard is way over hyped and if he starts at LT this year he will be run of the mill at best. I don’t know that a Howard will be better but I do say there isn’t that much difference, if any, between the actual production they will have on the field.

If in a year or so I’m wrong you can dig up this post and I’ll admit I’m wrong but for now you got two guys who I don’t think either one was worth being picked first round but they landed on a very shallow OT draft year, which followed a shallow OT F/A, with some desperate teams needing OTs.
 
thunderkyss said:
Yeah. Subjective. We put in offers & came away with Matt Kalil. That's our best effort in two years to land a starting caliber LT.

The Browns have added Akeem Hunt, Jarvis Landry, Odell Beckham Jr, & there's more named talent they've added this offseason. You'd think Daniel Snyder was over there making it rain.

I don't think the Browns are going to win the Super Bowl anytime soon. I think they're more likely to implode the way the Eagles "dream team" popped without much ado.

But it's not that hard to understand what steelbtexan means when he lists the Browns among those "trying to win"
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I’m not saying they aren’t trying to win, every team is trying to win, but they are also having to make splashes because they have been a free W for teams for years now. Texans haven’t had, or wasted, near the draft capital the Browns have nor did they have to pretty much build from the ground up like Browns did.

I’m just not sure how we’ve gone from being “five players away” to being a team that isn’t trying to win. I thought it was five quality players at key positions but no apparently it has to be a certain 5 players and if we miss on any on the list we’re doomed.
 
maverick512000 said:
Watson, Watt, Hopkins could go on. Yes they have some busts, maybe more than their share, but drafting is always a crap shoot. If you are talking about this draft then I will go on record now saying I think Dillard is way over hyped and if he starts at LT this year he will be run of the mill at best. I don’t know that a Howard will be better but I do say there isn’t that much difference, if any, between the actual production they will have on the field.

If in a year or so I’m wrong you can dig up this post and I’ll admit I’m wrong but for now you got two guys who I don’t think either one was worth being picked first round but they landed on a very shallow OT draft year, which followed a shallow OT F/A, with some desperate teams needing OTs.
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This has nothing to do with Dillard.

I'm talking about guys having to be Texans Worthy if the Texans draft them. If you draft this way you will hit on some great players, but you will miss out on many more.
 
maverick512000 said:
I’m not saying they aren’t trying to win, every team is trying to win, but they are also having to make splashes because they have been a free W for teams for years now. Texans haven’t had, or wasted, near the draft capital the Browns have nor did they have to pretty much build from the ground up like Browns did.

I’m just not sure how we’ve gone from being “five players away” to being a team that isn’t trying to win. I thought it was five quality players at key positions but no apparently it has to be a certain 5 players and if we miss on any on the list we’re doomed.
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They are still 5 players away.

The Browns aren't 5 players away.

This is if Mayfield is what he appears to be.
 
steelbtexan said:
I didn't know that Brown added OBJ/Vernon/Richardson/Hunt/Burnett/Greedy Williams? All of these guys were 1-1?

This is what a team trying to win does.

True they got Mayfield/Garrett 1-1 and thanks to the former GM 1-4/2-4.
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Has nothing to do with my post but you know that
 
thunderkyss said:
Yeah. Subjective. We put in offers & came away with Matt Kalil. That's our best effort in two years to land a starting caliber LT.

The Browns have added Akeem Hunt, Jarvis Landry, Odell Beckham Jr, & there's more named talent they've added this offseason. You'd think Daniel Snyder was over there making it rain.

I don't think the Browns are going to win the Super Bowl anytime soon. I think they're more likely to implode the way the Eagles "dream team" popped without much ado.

But it's not that hard to understand what steelbtexan means when he lists the Browns among those "trying to win"
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All I'm saying they look really good on paper. But they're still the shitty ash Browns until proven otherwise. The Texans might not have snatched up the players we wanted but at least they're in the race most of the time. Therefore, for anyone to say we're not trying, is straight up tripping.
 
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Texansballer74 said:
All I'm saying they look really good on paper. But they're still the shitty ash Browns until proven otherwise. The Texans might not have snatched up the players we wanted but at least they're in race modt of the time. Therefore, for anyone to say we're not trying, is straight up tripping.
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I think the Browns have turned the corner already. And now they've added more toys on offense and stocked up on defense in the draft.
Don't sleep on Cleveland.
 
Texansballer74 said:
Most of it is on the coach. And I don't blame him for wanting to run with his own philosophy as well as the type of personnel he wants.
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I know OB wanted to run a different blocking sceme and some of those guys didn't fit the scheme so OB does definetly played a hand in the dismantling of the line he inherited from Kubiak, but Rick Smith let several players walk because he didnt want to pay them when their contracts were up. As an outsider with a absolutely no inside knowledge and zero credibility, I would say the blame for losing those players was 60/40 with Smith being the 60. Not finding good replacements has to fall primarily on Rick as GM. Hopefully Gaine can do a better job of finding talent.

Devlin has not shown much over the years, but supposedly he is well respected in the league, which gives me a little hope (operative word here is "little") that with good talent he might be able to do an acceptable job as an OL coach. If we get the same results this year as in years past, he definetly needs to go (I was hoping he would be replaced already). I think he has enough talent this year that he.needs to get at least middle of the pack level performance from the Oline.
 
Texansballer74 said:
All I'm saying they look really good on paper. But they're still the shitty ash Browns until proven otherwise. The Texans might not have snatched up the players we wanted but at least they're in race modt of the time. Therefore, for anyone to say we're not trying, is straight up tripping.
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They keep losing the race so either they should bottom out or get new people to try and run the race.

Fact is ownership really doesn't care about running the race, much less winning the race.
 
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